kradus
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Posts posted by kradus
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As for Balgruuf, the stormcloak rebellion would not have died with Ulfric - that's been argued before. Even Tullius doesn't believe it'll die down, in fact he fears and expects it'll get worse and he wants to brace for that in his post-victory speech dialogue. If Balgruuf can see an opportunity for self-advancement in taking it up (which we argued would exist), it would definitely be in his character to make a move for it.
Tullius - "The fiercest of the remaining rebels will continue to harass us, but by and large,the people here desire peace,..."
Rikke - " There are those who still call themselfs stormcloaks, who continue to fight us and bring misery to the people. But they are few in number. The ordinary citizen will be happy to get back to life as normal, to have their families return home."
Kradus,
We don't know how many Jarls were carrying on the stormcloak struggle while Ulfric was in prison but we do know the war was on-going. The Snow-Shod patriach - Wulfiurth talks about his daughter who had joined the stormcloaks early on- and had been killed many years ago. There's also the Solaf in Falkreath who talks of Stormcloak battles years in the past. All we have to go on is that Igmund places the birth of the Stormcloaks in 176, when the Empire reneged on its terms agreed with Ulfric and that Ulfric was thereafter in prison until Toryyg was crowned HK. There was an unspecified lapse of time from when he was crowned until Ulfric challenged him in 201. All this time, with or without Ulfric the Stormcloaks have been fighting and I can't imagine the battle continuing without any Jarls behind it, but there just isn't enough information to go on. We don't know how long Ulfric was in prison. We don't even know how long Toryyg had been High King before he was killed.
We know which Jarls side with the empire, and we know that the rebel jarls are removed from power. So, bottom line, no rebelious Jarls are left to keep fighting.
Firstly, it's not an unpopular war - that would imply a majority do not want the war at all and that's untrue. Even if only 50% of the population supports the war - that's a huge number! But we can assume the vast majority of the "unseen" population of Skyrim are nords and we can assume the nords we do meet in game and talk to represent the sentiments of these untold masses. Of the nords we meet, most support the war whole-hardheartedly. The people who don't count as outright stormcoak supporters are non-nords (which we can assume are an over-all minority) or 'don't care either way' with the exception of the Battle-Borns and that one Snow-Shod son engaged to the Emperor's cousin. They went to the whole length of putting in Roggvir, his execution and family to show-case that even in the heart of imperial power, in Solitude there are those who'd stand up for Ulfric and filled Castle Dour Dungeons with oppressed and persecuted nords. So in short, calling it an unpopular war is just false.
It is an unpopular war, because the npc's who express themselfs against the empire are indeed only a few. No one else supports the war, they just want to go about their business.
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None of the other Jarls even try to start a rebelion without Ulfric doing it first. Why would the empire loyal Jarls restart the rebelion after the stormcloaks have been defeated? I see no sence in this.
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Ho Chi Minh died before the Vietnam war finished, Osama Bin-Laden has died, yet I assure you, the Afghan War will continue (and judging by the american strategy, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda will probably win the war).
Without Jarls and towns on their side, any remaining stormcloaks are no more significant than bandits, from a strategic and political point of view. The remaining Jarls are all on the empire's side, so non of them is likely to do what Ulfric did.
Dawnstar, Riften, Winterhold, as pointed out above whiterun would follow without Ulfric in the picture, and of course Windhelm, are all Devoted to the Stormcloaks.
What he said, and I was talking about after an imperial victory, when the surviving stormcloaks lose pretty much all support.
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Ho Chi Minh died before the Vietnam war finished, Osama Bin-Laden has died, yet I assure you, the Afghan War will continue (and judging by the american strategy, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda will probably win the war).
Without Jarls and towns on their side, any remaining stormcloaks are no more significant than bandits, from a strategic and political point of view. The remaining Jarls are all on the empire's side, so non of them is likely to do what Ulfric did.
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You on the other hand show that you mean to secure the Empires future first then Skyrims. I put Skyrim first, and I like to point out that an Imperial victory wouldnt be good for Skyrim in the end.
That depends on what you mean by the 'end'. The end to me is when the Thalmor have been subdued, by which time the WGC is not in effect. Repeating points as stated.
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Lets try 100.
Bretons and Nords where at war for a long time, until Talos united them. The Akaviri didn't retreat untill after sacking windhelm and the lands to the south, and the Ayelids subdued and ruled the nords for a time, in opposition to the Thalmor who seem more interested in purging them. The point of the matter is that Skyrim's natural defences as you guys have been pointing out, have never been able to keep the enemy out or mentioned in lore for such a purpose.
Similarly, you are saying that following an imperial Victory, Skyrim would not be able to recover.
And of course we can't rely on imperial loyalists, but that is why they either keep fighting in their small camps, admit defeat and go back to work, or retreat to Cyrodiil.
Its not that skyrim can't recouver, it's that the stormcloaks will hardly find any allies amongst the people who they have been killing. This includes Cyrodiil, High Rock, and nords themselfs. That's what I keep saying.
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As we discussed pages ago, Skyrim is capable of sustaining itself and has a high population of warlike people, and has tactics to combat the magics of the Dominion.
When you refer to an independent Skyrim, you shouldn't count on imperial veterans and imperial sympathisers in general. Ulfric and his men can't relly on the people they fought and killed. And any tactics the nords may have didn't keep Ayelids, bretons and Akaviri from marching on their territory.
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He cares because he did refuse Thalmor demands at first, despite the advice of his generals. If he was the man you people want him so bad to be, he would have signed the WGC without a fight.
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The Thalmor really don't need Ulfric to further their cause. Why?
A) The Empire willingly surrendered after Red Ring - gladly accepting the very terms that started the war in the 1st place.
B) They willingly allow the Thalmor to go wherever they want, do whatever they want in Imperial controlled lands - with impunity.
They really don't need anything more than that. Anything else is gravy.
The only thing that gives them pause right now is the Dragonborn - the Empire they have in their back pocket already - with or without Ulfric and the Civil War.
Added: When they turned their back on Hammerfell, they pretty much ceased to be an Empire in my book.
No. Considering what the emperor did before the signing the WGC, we know he wasn't one bit happy about it, or the Hammerfell situation. Quit the propaganda statements.
The only lore we have on the great war states that the empire was spent and unable to continue fighting at that point. If you chose to ignore or deny these facts, there's no point discussing it.
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Economy can be fixed, warring nations usually hold grief towards one another. And with the empire, you have an unified army.
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Considering that different sources have hinted for an upcomming war, I'd say yes. Underestimating the Dominion didn't work very well the first time.
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Also, what does Queen Ayrenn's age have to do with anything?
That elves are quite ready to fight at a 'young' age.
A question for you guys et gals: how do you think the Civil War outcome will be addressed at all in future games? I've ranted about it recently on my tumblr but only a forum can give significant feedback. I think they will say something along the lines of "a lot of chaos happened and then X stepped in and restored order". This X could be the Empire suddenly growing back its balls. It could be the Thalmor. Or it could be another revolutionary - remember that Tullius mentions, after killing Ulfric, that he's afraid he made a martyr, the Stormcloak Rebellion is led by Ulfric but he is far from the only one wishing it, half the population does. Those outcomes would "dust under the rug" the Civil War, which I believe is necessary for lore. How else would Bethesda deal with it, short of outright saying "Tullius won/Ulfric won" and s***ing over the player's canon? So far, they never did that.
I think the only way to bring the storylines together is to make the result of the civil war pointless. The Dominion beats the human nations down to the point where every province is broken and ragged, where neither the empire or the stormcloaks would be in action anymore. Because since either tullius or Ulfric get killed in the end of the civil war quest, any books comenting on what happened must not mention either of them as victorious.
The civil war isn't fully over either, because there are enemy strongholds in the land, and the empire would still technically be at war with Ulfric if he was victorious. So all that can to be mentioned in a neutral book is that there was a civil war, before the downfall of the empire. Neither faction can be counted as victorious.
And the next game would start with the nations of man in a miserable situation, with new leaders figting a losing guerrila war against the enemy who brought them low. Then the new hero would help unite them, and with some mystical help(via elder scrolls), perhaps help one of those leaders beat the powerfull armies of the Dominion, plus whatever monsters they pull out of their asses, and reach emperor status. That's one way, however the playfield must be leveled first.
Of course the Dragonborn would be an important character is such events, so he absolutely must first dissapear somehow. Perhaps one of the DLC's will aproach that, maybe he dies, or maybe he passes on to another plain of existance. But such a varied character cannot be summarized in any way and presented in any future title, sadly.
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Both fights with Alduin, and the Final fight at the college of winterhold.
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Secondly, there are mixed feelings about the numbers of the Aldmeri. Elves live a long time, and one would assume that they in fact mature slowly (else by sheer numbers they could have flooded Tamriel, they may have had to in the face of overpopulation).
About this, it's been established that Elves are similiar to men in that regard. I read that Barenziah was sexually active at sixteen, and we know that Queen Ayrenn, the leader of the AD in Tes Online is 25 when she is crowned, before which time she was an adventurer in Tamriel. So there's no reason to think that Elves take longer to grow, or that the AD army wouldn't be rebuilt by the time of skyrim's civil war.
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No skyforge mace, because the deal with skyforge weapons is the sharper blades. Maces are blunt, so realisticly it wouldn't be any different from a normal steel mace.
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A new province usually means a new game with its name. It would be a first for bethesda to load events from previous games into the next, while retaining the main character. But yeah, it would be awsome.
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I was joking, though, a line of troll berserkers would be awsome.
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I was reffering to the people themselfs, not just the holds. When you talk to the people in skyrim you have stormcloak supporters, imperial supporters, and the neutral population. The last 2 groups did not want a war, so the stormcloaks are pushing the war on the majority.
I should also mention the unknown ammount of nord soldiers serving in legions, which should be considerable, since it takes only one legion to keep the stormcloaks in check. Again, they are a minority, good luck fighting the Dominion with that much support.
And terrain works both ways, just as you wouldn't be able to manouver catapults properly in the mountains, Thalmor mages would have plenty of terrain elevations to cast their spells at different angles. That's if a shield formation wouldn't eventually break from persistent damage, just standing there taking damage from an enemy with ranged domination will kill you nontheless.
Plus, no one mentions how Thalmor melee fighters are actually quite strong. When faced with such an enemy you have to be able to rout them, not defend untill your dead.
I'd imagine the Jarl of Winterhold really wouldn't have much of a voice in a moot. Seriously, what other Jarls would even recognize him? He's a Jarl without a kingdom, without subjects - unless we consider Ice Wolves, Frost Trolls, Snow Sabre Cats and Snow Bears subjects with a voice......
Well, frost trolls can be domesticated, maybe you stormcloaks should consider that one.
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I mentioned fear as an example, but destruction magic will do just fine against an undermanned force. Back in the great war the empire had a bigger army, able to match the Dominion in the open, and had their own battlemages. So that's not comparable to a thermophilae situation, where the Thalmor would just focus their fireballs and whatnot at the enemy.
And I will indeed keep holding Ulfric and the stormcloaks responsible for starting the war, especially when most of the people in Skyrim didn't want it.edit: And Ulfric didn't even try to talk to Torygg. Sybille said Torygg admired him, and might have done something about the empire if Ulfric asked him, but Ulfric decidedto take the bloody path. It's his fault hands down.
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But anyway, Ulfric hasnt begun mass murders of the Dunmer and theres no evidence that he will start either.
I didn't say such a thing, those where innocent reach civilians. And this whole situation mirrors what went on in germany in the forty's, when many loved Hitler despite the atrocities he commited. Im not saying the two men are alike, though he was also quite good at making speeches.
Ulfric is busy with the war and cannot solve all the problems ( he isnt perfect as I have made clear)
He's not too busy to give protection from outlaws to nords, as Brunwulf makes it clear. While Dunmer/Khajiit/Argonians are left to their own devices. What kind of person makes that sort of distinction between races? Seriosuly guys, the info is right there in the game, dont be selective about it.
The Argonians have a history of being assassins, thieves, bandits (every race has some as well). If I were Ulfric I would allow Argonians into my city either. And one of my characters is an Argonian.
See, you're discriminating them right there. If you'll just look at riften, the most corrupt city in Skyrim, you'll see that the argonians there are well adapted working people(in fact, the thieve's guild is mostly human). One of them is a recouvering scooma addict, who simply wants to have a job and make a living. The difference is that the Argonians there aren't forced to live outside the city with only the worse jobs available to them.
I adore Ulfric because he has repeatedly shown that he is willing to do what he has to for his people. Ulfric is an honest racist. Tullius is not. Tullius obviously thinks he is better than Rikke, we all know that he's not, he sees the Nords as a resource and not as a people.
General Tullius doesn't think he's better than the nords, he doesn't undertand them at first because he's not one. But:
"I can't say I'll ever get used to the damned cold, or understand these nords, but I've come to respect them. The harsheness of skyrim has a way of carving a man down to his true self"
And his attitude towards Rikke is in no way exessive, he talks to her both as a friend and a superior officer. If you've been to the army, you'll notice that being blunt with your subordinates is the way to go.
Ulfric sees them as people and treats them like it. However he did put all the citizens to the sword but so did TM II, Im not say "Its okay because Titus did it too." Im just pointing out that Ulfric isnt alone.
The difference is that no one here idealizes Titus Mede II, despite siding with him. That's part of being a free thinker.
The Dunmer are guilty of putting pride before their own people.
Then by that line of thought, the stormcloaks are also guilty of putting pride before their own people, but they actually started a war most of the nords didnt ask for, and where many would die from it, and as a consequence of it.
How would they be divided if the Stormcloaks win? They are attempting, as we speak, to gain alliances. They arent to prideful to see that alone Skyrim will have trouble. They are willing to die to be free though. We look at the Battle of Thermopylae and use it as a basis for military strategy everywhere. Even though it was a defeat. They Spartans stood up against Tyranny and lost. But the fact that they stood up against it is what put them down in history.
As you know well, I've stated several times, that the Stormcloaks will hardly be able to ally with anyone besides the Reguards, because of their previous history with everyone else. You can't expect someone to be your ally after winning a war against them. This includes the nords themselfs.
And when it comes to Thermophillae, those where greek phallanxes vs persian infantry. In skyrim you'd have stormcloaks vs thalmor, and the Thalmor can break an enemy formation in many different ways. A simple fear spell, and the Stormcloaks would be remembered for the wrong reasons.
I would rather the Stormcloaks lose the next war and all die than side with the Empire. After what it has done it doesnt deserve to continue.
I would rather not, we're in this for the people, not for ourselfs. And the empire itself isn't directly responsible for what an emperor decisions. You can't condemn humanity to slavery and genocide by Thalmor hands just because you don't agree with the emperor.
If you were a racist, how on earth would you allow a Dunmer bard to ply their trade in what is pretty much otherwise hallowed ground for a Nord - Candlehearth Hall - a meadhall???? Seriously, a Dunmer singing Nord ballads while you are trying to socialize and get AWAY from the Dunmer?
Being a bard is a poorly paid job. And put yourself in her shoes, singing ballads about the people who dislike you, to the very same. She must have been desperate for cash and warmth.
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The only people to successfully invade were the Nedic people. Prodo Nords. No one else has ever invaded and remained there for very long.
The Akaviri were not successful. No one else has ever marched into Skyrim except for minor parties like the Forsworn. Reyman Cyrodiil did not. Nor any Colovian King.
The Akaviri had made it up to windhelm, and only lost eventually because they had to deal with the Ebonheart pact. I dont see that one happening again.
Plus the Ayelids did dominate Skyrim long ago, but they were more interested in enslaving humans rather than killing them(how the bretons came to be), and eventually the nords rebelled. The Thalmor however seem more interested in genocide, meaning, the nords wont be able to rebell from the grave(draugr dont count).
Um, explain how it would be easy for any army to march into skyrim? taking into consideration the rugged terrain, freezing climate, angry warlike people and naturally well defended mountains? Speaking to Jorleif we know that Pale Pass is actually the only route into Cyrodiil, so imagine marching your entire army through 1 narrow mountain pass.
As stated above, invasion is possible, and it has happened before. Turning skyrim into a fortress as a tactic is yet to be proven effective.
All borders would become open to threats? Name them. Cyrodiil will collapse, Morrowind already has, if High Rock had any interest in Skyrim's territories, they'd probably have intervened in the civil war, and Hammerfell hopefully will ally with Skyrim.
How will Hammerfell ally with Skyrim? There have been MANY more unlikely alliance in history (both RL and TES). The Ebonheart pact in the TES universe is the most unlikely (in fact almost impossible) of alliances, while in RL, we know that Joseph Stalin and the West put down their hatred of each other in the face of the common threat. Hell, its even suggested in game by Lu'ah al-Skaven.
All borders will be open to attack if the dominion simply take the lands around Skyrim first. I keep repeating myself.
An alliance between Stormcloaks and Hammerfell would only help the Dominion, seeing as they could simply defeat the Stormcloak army in open battle and then easely move in skyrim after Hammefell is done. Hammerfell would be subdued fast this time around, since the Dominion would have a much larger force, not the leftovers of the great war.
Many smaller "nations" Have defeated more powerful nations in wars before. Prime Example. American Revolution. Hell even Mexico lost to Guatamala in Guatamalas Rebellion. Basically there it was like 100 to 1 odds(not accurate, though seemingly accurate). And there are many more through out history besides these two examples.
True not all rebellions or smaller forces vs a bigger force have resulted in a victory for the underdog. But It has happened. The Thalmor, although powerful, are too full of them selves to win in the end. True their tactics up to this point have been effective but they don't nessisarly mean they ultimatly win regardless of which side controls Skyrim.
The problem with the human nations in tamriel, is that they're divided if the stormcloaks win. You have High Rock, Cyrodiil and a vast number of imperial supporting nords and veterans who the stormcloaks will have to deal with somehow. The only 2 factions that wouldn't be at odds with each other are Redguards and Skyrim(assuming that Hammerfell will unite again), so that's the only realistic alliance to come out of it. Divide and conquer works for the Thalmor in this case, and Cyrodiil will be defenceless against the dominion, where as with the empire, you have a larger force and the Tactical advantage of only having to defend Cyrodiil.
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I dont know who got the idea that the civil unrest in Cyrodiil would be detrimental for recruitment, people would be more likely to look for protection with the army in fact. A large number of soldiers would only help keep things in order, and would be able to put an end to the conflicts in Cyrodiil. And if the Dominion happened to invade, the Legions are already there. You can't have a better coincidence.
We ARE the victims. The elves are not. The Dunmer are not victims of anything other than their own laziness and self pity.
That's like saying that Talos worshippers are victims of nothing but their pride, when they are discovered by the justiciars. Or that the forsworn are only victims of their free will, or that the slaughtered citizens of Markarth where only victims of their passiveness. How can you possibly idealize a man like Ulfric?
The reason Faryl Atheron hides his face while working the Brandy-Mug farm is because of his own community. He says that they are ashamed to see him working for a nord, that his own brother would rather they live in squalor than do honest work.
They are ashamed because he's working for a people who mistreates them. He may be right, but so are they.
They arent oppressing the Dunmer, they are giving them what they deserve. They dont deserve to be given riches because Morrowind was destroyed. They must work like everyone else. The argonians, hm. I would say that they arent allowed in the city because theres nowhere for them to live and the Dunmer would assault them daily and there would be even more problems.
The nords are very much oppressing the Dunmer(not the Altmer), the game makes this clear when you enter Windhelm, and the situation is allowed to carry on by Ulfric's selective negligence. If you talk to Brunwulf, he makes it clear that Argonians/Dunmer/ Khajiit aren't granted protection like the nord citzens, and their lives are clearly made worse by it. You're streching it about the Argonians, from what I've heard they aren't allowed in the city because they aren't trusted/recognised as equals. Then they are confined to heavy labour and low pay if they want to make a living. That's certainly oppressive.
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The WGC only forbids open worship, it doesn't make people stop believeing in Talos.
Ya I looked into it.
Its weird that Shor has the power to basically become a man (Nord I think, but Whitestrake was an Imperial) and fights the elves in nearly all struggles.
More people are his reincarnation but none are as known.
I found this in the imperial library:
Lorkhan and his avatars:
1. Wulfharth L2. Hjalti O3. Ysmir R4. Talos K5. Arctus H6. Septim ANAnd Ysgramor isn't mentioned. In fact it would be weird, since you can find him in Sovngarde.
Where did you get that info?
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Plenty of people in the empire are Talos worshippers, Tullius and Rikke as an example. We've been through this before.
Ysgramor is a reencarnation of Shor?
Imperial VS Stormcloak
in Skyrim LE
Posted
Very true.