RighthandofSithis

Bombom, I'd quote you but I don't want to rummage back through the argument when I could be playing Skyrim. First, your comment on nationalism is self contradictory. You say Ulfric is not a nationalist, but then you say he is an extreme nationalist. Furthermore, just because the Empire rules over Skyrim, doesn't mean he is anti nationalist. He wants to free the Nordic people and Skyrim as a nation. That is nationalism. Secondly, you say that only people who use non violence are good leaders. Did Lenin make Russia better for the Russian people? Was he a good Leader? Was George Washington a good leader? Revolution is a bloody affair. And while there may be blood in the short term, Skyrim will be able to leave the crumbling Empire to make itself self sufficient, and able to combat the Thalmor in it's own right. The ends justify the means.

As I said above, it is likely the Empire is falling. And if Skyrim does leave the Empire, it with Hammerfell and High Rock (High Rock may not join, but it should. If the Thalmor want to dominate over humanity, they will have to take on High Rock) could be equally capable of defeating the Thalmor as the Empire would, if not more capable. And as I said way way ago, to take over Tamriel, they would have to occupy it while continuing the war effort, or establish very good relations with the people of Tamriel (which would not happen).

I find that offensive. You are the one seeing this issue in black and white. You see this as good and evil, when realistically each side have their good and bad points. Ulfric as a person is power hungry. He has committed war crimes against his own people, he is racist, and he seems to hold a firm rule. However, his followers follow him because he is freeing their land from imperialism. He is bringing back their own traditions and government, not those forced upon them by an Empire. He gives voice to the opinions of the Nordic people (and the Nordic people are generally racist). In times of hardship (like 4E 201) it is desirable to have a strong and firm leader (Stalin is like the 5th most popular Russian [even though he was Georgian], as voted by Russians, because he was a strong leader in the times of struggle with the Nazis. This was in 2004 or something). The Empire is multicultural. They believe in trade and wealth. They believe in order. However, the Empire is, unsurprisingly, imperialist. There is a difference between imperialism and unity. They are right-winged, and support the nobility and the wealthy, and generally ignore the needs of the working classes (example Cidhna mine, they try to take the mine, as they don't want it in Stormcloak hands, but they don't put their foot down and stop the exploitation). They replace those loyal to the Stormcloaks with corrupt puppets that cannot rule the land effectively (look at Siddgeir and Maven Black-Briar). This game was made to represent a real political struggle. There are no good or bad guys and you have to choose one thing you will sacrifice so another thing can prosper. (Albeit, this is nothing compare to a REAL political struggle) PS: The reason I argue so strongly for the stormcloaks is because I see most of the Stormcloak supporters as not really understanding the Elder Scrolls lore, and don't make a good case.

I'm not sure if you're replying to me bombom, so I'll reply to your post as if you are replying to me. (Sorry if you where not, I just can't give up a debate). I am not disputing Ulfric's personal desire for power. Some who support him also share that belief. However, it has been proven that he has the dedication and will to lead (as shown by his study of the Thum). And I have no intention of disputing his past. There are many versions of Ulfric's duel with Torygg. Stormcloak supporters give their version, Imperial supporters give their version. Both are likely biased and representative of their viewpoints (therefore it is not possible to establish exactly what happened). Neither shall I argue his slaughter at the Reach. I will say this however. He is a patriot. His views are based on Nordic nationalism and tradition. He respects the legacy of Ysgrammor, and his beliefs are representative of the dominant Nordic views (which are xenophobic, as with many of the races of Tamriel [the Redguards, the Dunmer, the Argonians]). I shall give an analogy. His dislike of the Dunmer and the Argonians is similar to the western dislike of immigrants, particularly Muslims, by conservatives (Albeit, he is a bit more extreme. And also, I am not intending to offend anyone). Immigrants are often ridiculed for their beliefs, and bringing their culture with them. Conservatives want (some even demand) they drop their customs and adopt western traditions. You do not seriously compare conservatives to Nazis (but some do disagree with their beliefs) (Again, I wish to say this is a generalisation, I don't want to offend anyone). The Thalmor are more like the nazis, as they seriously support Ethnic superiority and the cleansing of Ethnicities and religions. And the Justiciars can be compared to the SS in this regard. They also hold concentration camps where they hold their political enemies. In fact, the only way I cannot see the Thalmor as being fascist, is that their leadership comes from the Intelligentsia and not the military (Albeit, they could be battlemages or some-such). And saying Ulfric is fascist because he enforces his ideology with military force, you say that the US is fascist (the Cold War, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan), that the UK and Ireland are fascist, that any civil war is fascist, that the crusades where fascist etc. (You did say he had a parallel, it's just that I'm getting tired.) And if you are hell-bent on believing Ulfric is a Nazi, then remember Erwin Rommel was a military genius of the Third Reich, and pioneer of the Blitzkrieg tactic. However, he was opposed to the Nazi ethnic cleansing regime. So as you say, individuals are corrupt and must be treated individually.

Id' Like to just add my two cents again. I'd like to point out that the established point that the Empire can provide a united front to oppose the Thalmor is logical. However, supporters of the Stormcloaks also have a valid point to make. Empires collapse. Look at history, Both Real and Tamrielic. The Third Empire (the Current one) Has existed for over 600 years (the exact formation of the Empire may vary from one persons opinion to another). To put this into perspective, Ivan the Fourth was crowned Grand Prince of Moscow in 1533. From then he had conquered Modern Russia and some other states to form the Russian Empire. This Empire had lasted until 1917 with the Russian Revolution. This puts the Russian Empire as lasting for 384 years. Another example is the Roman Empire (Which the Cyrodiilics are largely based on). Assuming the Empire started with Julius Caesar (Really he was a dictator, the first Emperor was Augustus, his adopted son). Caesar took power in 44BC. The exact year the Western Roman Empire fell is still being debated, but we shall assume it fell in 476AD. This places the Western Roman Empire as having lasted for 520 years. The Third Empire has out lived these two examples, meaning it is likely on the verge of collapse itself. This is furthered by the Empire facing both external and internal threats (The loss of Hammerfell, the Stormcloak rebellion and the civil strife in Cyrodiil), its military is far stretched (possibly beyond sustainable means) and it's economy is likely waning as a result of these pressures. When the Empire collapses, the economies of all the provinces within it and rely on it, will collapse, meaning they will not be able to sustain their own armed forces (High Rock is an exception, it has proven to be able to simply return to its feudal system). This means that the only powers left that could have any chance to oppose to oppose the Thalmor in any way would be Hammerfell and High Rock. High Rock may be able to boast it's armies and battlemages, But how effected they will be by their own feudal wars cannot be predicted as of yet, and while the Redguards are mightly warriors, it is not known if their own economy has recovered from their war with the Thalmor (and if it has, it is unlikely to be able to match that of the Aldmeri Dominion). However, it may be possible to extend the life of the Empire. The Second Empire was looking like it would fall after the assassination of Reman III and his heirs, but the Akaviri Potentates where able to extend the life of the Empire by sacrificing it's best legions and ruling with an Iron Fist. This made the Second Empire last for 648 years before the Potentate and his heirs where all assassinated. However, the current Empire cannot spare any of its soldiers, and it would be hypocritical of anyone who has used Ulfric's racism and firm rule as an argument in support of the Empire to support brutal repression by the Imperials. However, I have recently completed the Stormcloak questline. When the Imperials are defeated, Ulfric intends to rebuild Skyrim's economy and it's armies so as to be able to make Skyrim the 'cradle of mankind' once again and then intents to confront the Aldmeri Dominion. And I believe that this is what will happen. He had even placed Galmar in charge of the rebuilding to ensure this. And the common perception that Skyrim will descend into chaos overlooks what Skyrim was before the War of Succession, and what it was afterward. While the Nord character is warlike, it is unlikely that they will war amongst themselves, having all accepted and supported Ulfric (If anything, they will start the war with the Thalmor). This means that instead of having only two powers capable of confronting the Dominion, there are three, possibly four if the Cyrodiilic counties are able reform. And it is still likely that they will unite against the Thalmor, despite their differences (look at WW2, The USSR and the Western Allies where both pretty much mortal enemies, but they united against the Axis threat). And that's only based on conventional warfare. The Thalmor have won a number of enemies in their own lands with their various purges (and the Psijic Order). It would not be hard for humanity to win over the hearts and minds of the people of the Dominion (again look at WW2. Even though the Red Army was butchering civilians, the people of Warsaw where with them before they had reached their city).

Hey, I don't know anything about modding. I'm just good for ideas and story-writing.

And while we're at modding new armors, let's get some decent robes and hood for the Black Hand, covering most of the face, leaving only the mouth down visible.

It's nice to see that my post is being recognised. Interestingly now that I have already started working with anther modder on a differant DB mod, it includes an expanded quest line and a faction rivalry, with the player being able to choose sides, but I'm not at liberty to reveal any more yet. If anyone would like to take this up, as I said, I'm happy to assist in writing backgrounds and story-lines for this mod. I'm interested that you said that the Morag Tong has disbanded. Which NPC said that? And yes, I can see many of the things you are suggesting in this mod. As I said, People would be given the chance to either restore the Black hand, or continue with Astrids beliefs (for each players personal preferances). And when I say restore the Black hand, I mean add some real, Lucien Lachance, Vincent Price, and if youdon't mind me using the common word, 'badass' type characters. I can also see some new sanctuaries being opened to accomodate the newly founded Black Hand, including 5 sanctuaries (one for each speaker and one great one for the Listener) and a training facility run by a silencer. For the Morag Tong, I though that people would just make new characters, but I can see your point. Maybe the player is met alone by a member of the tong, and is given the choice, to either join the Tong, remain with the brotherhood, or infiltrate either the Tong or the brotherhood. However, I cannot see the two organisations creating an alliance. They have hated each other for centuries, they will both try to rebuild their previous status while destroying the other. And EPK22, these mods should be merged into one. What's the Morag Tong without it's armor? And also, that image is actually concept art of Morag Tong assassin, not a DB assassin, drawn way back when Morrowind was being produced. I can also see a lot of murders, including the best from both the Skyrim and Oblivion DB questlines, high priority targets, disposed of in creative ways. And Bring back the famous 'Who done it' quest. Some targets could include, Kings/Queens of High Rock, heirs of Jarls, Military leaders, Elder Council members and the very people everyone hates, the Thalmor leadership.

Actually High Rock would not have been effect by the calamities of Red Mountain, because if it was, then cities like Solitude, Markarth etc would have experienced catastrophe as well (I would imagine). Also I didn't read the whole topic, I was just interested in making my own point that regardlless of which side wins, Skyrim would be safe from the Thalmor. Second, I was talking about the Alessian Revolt of the First Era. The Nords where instrumental in the capture of White-Gold tower. And I wasn't talking about a nordic resent of Magic, I was talking about racial conflicts. And I was using Alessia, Talos and reman as examples of Cyrodiilic heroes that had defeated enemies of such power (The Ayleids and the Akaviri, and the unity of Tamriel). And I remember reading somewhere that the consistent rise and fall of Cyrodiil never fails to bring back order to Tamriel (Which is corroborated by Tamrielic history). The rise of Cyrodiil has always been conducted by these heroes, and it is likely that another will rise eventually (Bethesda will make sure of that). Third, I was just making the point that the Thalmor are afraid of (or at least don't want) a stormcloak victory, just making the point. And when you say that Ulfric is a selfish bastard, I personally think you are only seeing one viewpoint of the issue, or are being biased. Could you argue the same of Talos, who had conquered Tamriel and became Emperor? Or is he still a hero? And throughout History, many have acted on the people's behalf and didn't seem like it. Hitler for example. While he was a fascist dictator who had slaughtered many Jews, he was a patriot who wanted to restore the pride of Germany (Let's point out, I'm not supporting Hitler or Nazism here, I'm just not being biased). I'll back the point that Hitler wanted to restore German pride because his Anschluss of of Austria and annexation of Poland (half of Poland) was done to restore the German Empire. (I wish to restate, I am an anti-fascist). You can see issues like this in other characters such as Mao. He is seen as a self centered dictator, but his ideologies are based on what he saw was best for the world (I've actually read the Little Red Book). (Please don't give me any anti-communist arguments, I'm making the point that people can often be portrayed as bad, when they could really be good) Also, whatever happens in future TES games, be assured that Bethesda will take care of it. They will have to accommodate everyone's playing style in the next game. Tamriel will be saved at one point or another, it's predictable. **** Sorry, I wasn't meant to quote myself. I don't know what happened there.

This is an interesting topic. This is a political struggle between the declining Cyrodillic Empire and the Stormcloak revolutionaries with the Thalmor looking at both sides and seeing that the empire is weakening as a result of the civil war, but do not have total support for either side, rather wishing to have control over both. Before I continue with my evaluation of the situation, I wish to express that in reality, I am an anti-imperialist, and a supporter of egalitarianism (Meaning I don't like Empires or racism etc). The empire is a superpower that has seen it's glory days, but those days seem to be behind them. The Great War with the Thalmor had cost the Empire much of it's prestige, armed forces and, as always with wars of such severity, likely much of the Empire's wealth. Some would say that the Empire is defiantly falling, and that the Thalmor are an indestructable force. However, Both sides had lost much during the Great War. The Thalmor had to accept the peace treaty as well, thus they are not likely in the best position either (If they where, they would have attacked again), albeit the Thalmor don't have to put up with the continuous warring of their own people. Nonetheless, should Skyrim become independent, the empire's fall will be inevitable. The Empire only consists of only three provinces now, Cyrodiil, High Rock and Skyrim. Skyrim is right in the middle of these three places. Thus is Skyrim leaves, the High Rock will have troubled or no communication with Cyrodiil and will be forced to leave (Returning to it's traditional feudalism). However, if the Empire remains united, it would mean that the Thalmor would have to face a unified foe. The Stormcloak revolutionaries on the other hand wish to free themselves from the Empire which they see as being controlled by/allied with the Thalmor. It seems that many Nords are sympathetic to these beliefs. While it is obvious that the Thalmor are not allied with the Empire (They are in fact the greatest of foes), the Nordic people feel shamed that the Thalmor have defeated humanity and to appease them (however temporary) that they must be permitted to deny them their own gods and put up with the elven demands. This is not helped by Nordic xenophobia. Ever since the Slaughter at Saarthal in the First Era, the Nords have always hated any elves, and Elves have always hated the Nords. While the Stormcloaks may be racist, they clearly have the interests of their own people at heart. Skyrim's independence be secured, the Empire will fall. However, this will open opportunities for diplomatic relations with Hammerfell. While Hammerfell is a ruined nation, it is once again reunited and with help from other nations, such as Skyrim, would be able to become a force capable to combating the Thalmor once again. Not only this, but as Skyrim is the northernmost nation in Tamriel, the Thalmor would have to advance through much hostile territory to be able to threaten it. Even then, it would have to advance through the Jerall mountains, an almost impossible barrier between Skyrim and Cyrodiil, and then advance into the incredibly hostile environment of Skyrim itself. Also, in both cases, in the face of the Thalmor threat, it is possible that a new hero will emerge, following in the footsteps of Alessia, Reman and Talos. PS. A few people seem to have missed a few issues. One. Nobody remembers High Rock, they defeated the Cameron Usurper, and are thus capable of unity when the need arises. Two. This talk of magic Vs melee seems to forget that the first empire was forged by the Nords, who had forced the Falmer (who where very capable of magic at the time) out of Skyrim and assisted greatly in the defeat of the elves in Cyrodiil (Again competent at magic). While magic is useful in combat, does that mean your character always dies when facing mages? Three. The Thalmor do not want a Stormcloak victory, they have an article on Ulfric which states this.

I was thinking the same, however I just looked at my Skyrim political map (From Bethesda, so it's reliable) and it turns out that Helgen is well inside Falkreath Hold. Personally, I think the idea of becoming the Jarl of Helgen would therefore not work lore wise (some roleplayers, such as myself, like to maintain the established Elder Scrolls lore). However, I like the idea of the Player becoming the newly appointed leader of Helgen, as either a Baron (or a nordic equivalent) or a governor appointed by the empire/Ulfric following the completion of the civil war.

Hello, I was really disappointed when once again, Bethesda left it to the modding community to actually give the Dark Brotherhood a decent ending. Also, most (at least, I haven't tried the College of Winterhold yet) of the factions have had a lasting faction rivalry. The Companions where at war with the Silver Hand, the Civil War was ravaging Skyrim, and the main quest had disagreements between the Blades and the Greybeards. However, the Dark Brotherhood only had a few run ins with the Penitus Oculatus. Therefore, I believe that, while it would not be an easy task (as the Dark Brotherhood Chronicles demonstrated) a good modding idea would be one to rebuild the Dark brotherhood to it's former glory (At least in Skyrim) with the choice of either maintaining Astrid's new views of the Dark brotherhood (Without the Black Hand and the Tenets etc) or to restore the Black hand and Brotherhood tradition. However, I also stated that a faction rivalry would be desirable. While the Penitus Oculatus would be an obvious opponent to the Brotherhood, players of Morrowind may remember another, much older group of honorable assassins with the longest standing feud with the Brotherhood. Within Winterhold's Grey Quarter, a group of Dunmer have fled Morrowind's deepest struggle. However, these Dark Elves hold a greater secret than most of the refugees. Worshiping Mephala, a small group of the infamous Morag Tong have been given orders to expand into Skyrim to ensure the Tong's survival. Inevitably this will result in confrontations with the Brotherhood, However, the Tong eventually learns of the Bortherhood's recent weakness, and further orders are given to eliminate them. I think that the player should be permitted to join either side in the conflict, so as to allow players greater freedom while playing. I'm not much of a modder myself, But I would be thankful if there is a modding community interested in taking on this modding idea or if anyone would be able to put together a community to do this. Furthermore, I would be happy to help a modding community with this mod by assisting in writing back-stories, story-lines e.t.c. In what time I can spare (I'm in High School, and my studies come first). IMPORTANT: We have set up a Forum to coordinate this mod. If anyone wishes to help with this mod, please make an account at http://bit.ly/sdbm1.