[Trying to understand]

 

 

It's interesting this is still going on. I would think those who disagree would have just moved on by now and left instead of constantly arguing back and forth over something that clearly isn't going to change.

 

But whatever, this will be the only reply from me.

 

 

Hey, Remember when you said this way back on Page 44, THREE DAYS ago that that was your only reply?

 

When are you planning on doing that?

 

 

Hey .. remember you already added me to the ignore list? Isn't that done as a means to ignore me? When are you planning on doing that?

[Trying to understand]

 

I have no issue with those who disagree with me, I do have an issue with those who imply that I am mentally deficient for disagreeing with them. I do have an issue with people who lie to support their point. I do have an issue with people who take things out of context and twist them into something I never said. I do have an issue with people who step into the middle of a conversation, derail that conversation, and will not allow the conversation to get back on track.

 

This thread is titled "Trying to Understand". But you are not here to understand, or help others understand. You are here to defend Robin and convince those of us who disagree with Robin and his actions of the righteousness of your cause. You do not give two hoots about understanding. You are here under a false flag. In short, you are a troll.

 

 

Quote me where I did all of the things you are claiming. Quote where I implied someone is mentally deficient for disagreeing. Quote me where I am lying to support a point? Quote me where I am taking something out of context, or twisting something someone said. Quote me where I "derailed" the conversation. As I have said, the topic is about trying to understand, an I am giving my perspective on things just like anyone else here. Meaning it's not derailed, you just don't like what I have to say.

 

I am not here to defend Robin, I am here to defend the idea. As I have already stated, it could be any site ... and I would defend it all the same because I think it's a good idea. Also, I am not a troll. You all are more like trolls than me because all you ever do is comment with insults ad hominems ... and bulls***.

[Trying to understand]

Its good to know and see folks still talking about pros/cons and also the few defending NM admiting "it should be fine to take things that arent theres as its on the interent and no one should listen to mod authors after they release the work" Im looking at you rabbit. No i dont care what you'll say. Read my sig and know your on it already.

Don't care. All you prove is you didn't read a word I said. Meaning, I am glad you blocked me because it means the conversation would have never gone anywhere with you. Also, pointing it out shows how mature you are .. aka not at all.

 

Edit: Honestly, it seems people here overuse the ignore function over disagreements, reminds me of twitter. I really don't understand what is so hard about having a conversation. I can understand ignoring people over petty insults or just plain trolling (actual trolling) ... but some users on this site ... no wonder nexus didn't bother telling you all to begin with. They probably were well aware of how some of you don't want to listen to anything but what is in agreement with you.

 

Also, I am going to make this clear for the rest of you. Ignoring those who disagree with you isn't going to lead to anything good. Why would anyone listen to what you have to say when you are unwilling to listen yourself? You might as well leave now. And I am not saying listen ... as in agree with me. But ignoring people you disagree with is not the way to do things, that just shows how insignificant you think your own arguments are that you don't even want to see someone point out what they disagree with.

[Trying to understand]

Nexus isn't a part of the community, it's just a hosting business. The community I'm in (Fallout New Vegas), works greatly together and Nexusmods is irrelevant. Assuming it bankrupts today, so of us would have to relocate their files, and tomorrow we'd keep on being happy together.

Not to try and offend you or anything, but I think this is a bit of a fallacy. Because I never argued that Nexus is or isn't part of the community. Basically, you are arguing against a point I never made. When I spoke about working together, I meant working together to improve things. Nexus as a site is indeed irrelevant in that. But the thing is, what Nexus is trying to do ... is improve things. At the moment, some just disagree with the method they are going with, where as I personally agree. But it could be any other site, and I would still stick up for it because I think it's a great idea.

 

 

 

Here. I had to spend my own time because a user was following deleterious advice about an old version of my mod.

I don't know if this really answers my question. As I feel like something like this can happen either way. As in if someone only updated some of their mods but has some outdated mods too. Plus, a simple solution for something like this is to ask for their full modlist including mod versions. I always feel like that should be one of the first questions asked, because then you can determine if any of their mods are outdated that might be causing the issue. Alternatively, you could say that you don't support older mod versions, and suggest they update their load order entirely if they would like help. It just ... I feel like there are a lot of solutions to this problem that don't require deleting older files.

 

 

 

It's not that easy because users can often be oblivious to the fact they are using an old version. (Sadly, some users are well aware of this fact and they still choose to hide it, hoping its irrelevant)

Which brings me back to my first point. This can happen even if you do delete the files. Because deleting them doesn't delete it off of everyone's computer. Anyone can keep an old version installed for really any length of time.

 

 

 

ModDrop offering a deal to Elianora to let them retain her mods at ModDrop. And of course, www.steamcommunity.com/workshop/aboutpaidcontent

What is the context of the ModDrop thing? Because if it was so they can retain her mods, it sounds more like a bribe than what we are talking about here lol.

And as for paid content on steam, that is also a bit different than what we are talking about here at least ... I think assuming we we are on the same page, but maybe not. As paid content requires users to buy the mod ... correct? Not really the same thing as Nexus kind of just donating to mod authors and creating a point system and all that.

 

Although, it's already been established that mod authors pay Nexus for premium so it kinda negates their contribution a bit and negates my point on this matter almost entirely.

[Trying to understand]

 

How about because of all the time and effort it can take to create a great mod? How about because it requires a skillset that takes time to cultivate? How about because that's literally not how it works with real-world objects? You can spend all the time you want searching for illegal ways to watch tv shows or movies, its still f***ing illegal and you can still go to jail for that. No matter how much you may love the movie/tv show.

 

I don't see how that is a good reason to just do whatever they want. I am a creator, and even I don't think people should bend over backwards to just listen to everything I say. There are lines that have to be drawn somewhere. Also, we are not even talking about something illegal here. The files are uploaded HERE on this site uploaded by the creator. No one is accessing it from anywhere else when they create a list. So it's not the same thing.

[Trying to understand]

 

You can't opt out of rival systems.

Earlier on in this thread, you said it would be easy enough to implement an opt out collections system. The bottom line: it is possible to streamline the process of creating a load order without encouraging-and even creating the tool to allow people to-use a mod file in a manner that the owner does not approve of.

 

To be honest, I don't think a mod author's view on how a mod is downloaded or installed should matter. I can't think of a single good reason why they should have that right to tell everyone else how things should be done in that regard. If I created a list of mods of the most essentially mods, and linked to downloads for each of the mods in that list ... I would never listen to a mod author trying to tell me I can't do that with their mod because it's ridiculous. That would be like a mod author telling which mod organizer I can and cannot use with their mod.

 

An opt out would be the exact same thing as doing that, because all a collection is ... is a list of mods and where to get them. Not even curseforge has an opt out as far as I am aware.

[Trying to understand]

So in most cases you suggest to "contact Nexus, and let them know of the circumstances".

 

I have a better solution: simply find a more convenient mod hosting service so that you can delete old crap without asking questions.

I think you have to understand that the reason I am on Nexus' side is because I have seen what can come out of modding communities when they work together instead of against each other. In other words, I want this to work. And so when I see something of which I would consider a very minor inconvenience vs what can come out of such a change, it just seems worth it by a pretty large margin.

 

I understand inconveniences ... no matter how small can be annoying. But in this case, I think it's important to look at the bigger picture here as well as the reasoning behind it. My two favorite games are Minecraft, and Skyrim ... these are the two games I can say I have played thousands of hours of. And what I have seen come out of the Minecraft community when "modpacks" (collections) became popular was amazing. It wasn't just people throwing mods together into a giant mess. What happened is you had pack creators create a union between the mods, some packs going as far as to create their own mods just to get it to work and create new and unique experiences we would never have had if not for that ability to exist.

 

And I also understand that they didn't have to go through the problem of mod deletion, and so they can still go on their page and just remove everything if they wanted to. But I also understand that Minecraft, and Skyrim are not the same games. Modding works differently between the two. And so, I understand why Nexus would want to make the decision that mods can't be fully deleted because it would cause a lot of issues, more so than it typically would for a game like Minecraft.

 

Last but not least, no matter what is said, no matter the reasoning ... not everyone is going to agree with it. And I am absolutely sure Nexus was already aware of that. Heck, even I knew this would happen as the years went by with each Vortex release getting closer and closer to the inevitable collections they have continued to talk about. No one is saying you have to agree with it. No one is forcing anyone to agree. But I just don't know what anyone wants who is against this but not leaving. They act like telling them to go their separate ways is some sort of slight against them or rude. But ... that's life. We all go our separate ways sometimes, that's just how it is. It's not anyone trying to be mean, it's just them speaking the truth. If you don't like it, then .... move on.

 

It can't hurt to try and create your own platforms, and maybe you will find a better solution than Nexus. But as of now, it's Nexus I personally agree with here, and so I am going to stick to defending them unless someone offers up something that changes my mind.

 

And let me be clear, I do think a system that allows deletion of mods could work. I just understand why Nexus doesn't want to go that route.

 

 

You can't force people to forget, but you can force Internet services to help you with that.

 

Right, but that is about personal information. That isn't going to help you remove everything you've ever posted on the internet.

 

And who is asking you to see "how" ? That's not your decision to make.

 

Right, but giving it some sort of explanation on how, can help me to understand. Cause as of now, I see plenty of other communities where they pretty much never delete old versions, and don't seem to have this problem. For example, Thaumcraft for minecraft actually has quite significantly different versions based on the version of minecraft it was released on. Tons of changes, and the old version is still up. Had no issues with adoption rates of the new version. Or rather, I just don't think it actually matters. Some people will continue to play 1.17.10, and some play on 1.12, and some play on the newest version.

 

If it's about support, like if you don't want to deal with getting massaged about a version you have not worked on in a while, just say you dropped support for it ... right? Rather than taking it away, just tell them they are on their own. They throw a fit, ignore them, ban them ... whatever you want. Already happens anyway, so not much is going to change there.

 

 

 

There are known examples of services that had offered deals to mod authors.

Ok, then just name one. Cause it's news to me. As for the premium and how much you get in donations. That's a good point, one I most certainly didn't consider. To be honest, I think Nexus should make Premium free for mod authors if they reach a certain threshold with their mod in terms of ... maybe endorsements or downloads. Seems odd you would have your contributors pay. So see ... here is an argument I think is a really good point. Just for those who just constantly want to call me a troll and act like I will only ever disagree.

 

 

 

No because it's archived already ?

Right, but the author has the ability to hide archived files. Meaning if it was uploaded, and then soon after archived, it's extremely unlikely anyone would have the information to even access the archived file which would have to be done through the API.

 

Something I also want to point out, and this is kind of a little more on the technical side of things in terms of computers in general. No file is ever truly deleted even when you "delete it" regardless of where on the internet you posted it. That isn't how storage typically works, all it does is remove the pointer to the files, it's essentially the equivalent of archiving. The same even occurs on your own computer. The only time a file becomes entirely inaccessible is when it's essentially been overwritten, and there is no way to be sure when that happens. It's why you can load up a recovery program and essentially undelete a file you just deleted it.

[Trying to understand]

 

Breaking a mod list is not my problem as a mod author. It is the mod list maker's responsibility.

 

I think it stands to reason that people working together to make things better is always the way to go. As in, I do think mod authors should care and at least view it as a problem that they would want to help with to not make things such a burden. It's why mod authors in the minecraft community don't just constantly delete things because they know tons of people rely on those files remaining up.

 

And? Is this supposed to mean something?

 

Pretty sure it does.

And? That sounds definitely like a mod list maker's problem. Why should I give up my rights? If I don't ask someone to put my file(s) in their list, why would it be on me to give up my rights cause they chose to do that.

 

It's not giving up your rights, it's giving permission to distribute, to make things simpler. Giving up your rights would insinuate you don't have a choice in the matter, when you absolutely do. And this doesn't even put anymore burden on the mod author. If anything this would alleviate some of that burden when a mod list is broken due to a removed mod and then a user coming to you to complain the mod list doesn't work because you removed it. And then when they install the new version and it doesn't work due to patches, they will complain even more to you that it doesn't work. Then you will tell them to complain to the curator. Is it not easier to just not delete the file? I don't understand what the problem is with that, this kind of thing is done already in a lot of different places.

 

And I suppose I could say, maybe it shouldn't be forced through a ToS. But I suspect many would purposefully try and sabotage the system since they were against collections from the start.

This is your weakest argument if you could even call it that. Try saying that to an automotive maker who wishes to recall a particular vehicle. It is their right to do so.

 

 

You realize that recalling a vehicle requires that it is given back ... right? It's typically strictly done for issues that could be dangerous without it being fixed. And if it's taken for a long period of time they give you a rental.

[Trying to understand]

Could people just add the Bunny to their ignore list and stop quoting them so the rest of us who already have him set to ignore don't have to see their posts?

It will get a lot quieter in here, and all it's doing is completely burying all of the previous posts that made good points.

 

 

Also, this is what causes more of an echo chamber. Just block or ignore anyone who disagrees with you. But hey ... if that is what you all want, then go ahead. Doesn't bother me, not like it's going to change anything at the end of the day.

[Trying to understand]

 

Just to explain this to you - because you obviously donât understand why people are upset with you. You belittled everyone here who still talks about this, who isnât in agreement with your opinion by saying how pathetic we are that we still talk about this here. Yet you are continue to talk here as well again, and a lot. That was the exact moment where you lost everyone here in this thread. You made fun of us, belittle us. You undermined yourself by doing so. Yet you wonder why nobody has a serious discussion with you. The lack of self reflection is what people rubs the wrong way here. I actually think you are not trolling. I think you lack empathy and self awareness. You think you are the only reasonable person here. You arenât thou, you are ignorant. Scroll back a bit and read your first message again. Itâs funny because you are now the person that you belittled in your entry comment. Which speaks volumes about you as a person. You point at the splinter in everyoneâs eye, and yet you are blind for the wooden beam in your own eye.

 

The funny thing is what you are accusing me of isn't even something I did. I didn't say anyone was pathetic as far as I am aware. Nor did I really make fun of anyone. Though, I would be curious if you could actually quote what part of what I said that makes you feel I was belittling others, rather than just accusing me of it.

 

And as for why no one has a serious discussion with me is the same exact reason why an admin can try and discuss things and you all literally do the same to them. The truth is, you don't want to discuss it unless it's in agreement with you.

I also don't lack empathy, nor do I lack self awareness (which is you belittling me btw). I just think you are hearing things poorly from me because that is the way you want to hear them because I am not on your side. Again, I not once belittled anyone for still talking about this. I only pointed out how I thought it was interesting many who disagree with Nexus have still not moved on, like as if something is going to change even though they have been fairly clear on their intentions. I also pointed out that it was an echo chamber in here which it has been.

 

Maybe I said it in a way that came off poorly, and for that I am sorry. It's really not my intention. But if you really think that is why no one is discussing this seriously with me ... I am going to have to disagree with you there. I don't think that is the reason because this is how you all were responding to me and anyone who didn't agree back when this news was first announced as well (so quick to call anyone a troll as well). I think some of you really should look in the mirror sometimes or reevaluate how you yourself are coming off. That is why being in an echo chamber can be bad, because it means you can do a lot of things that come off poorly but no one is going to point it out cause they agree with you.

 

Why do you think you never point out anyone else who comes off poorly when they are on your side? Like for example 1ae0bfb8 is particularly bad in the way they respond to people. It's like they don't think a human is on the other side of the screen.

[Trying to understand]

 

i wonder if that troll account you're communicating with is some sort of bot.

 

you will find it comments, with absolute impunity on a variety of topics that run into the tens of pages. every single time its response is 100% contrarian. doesn't matter the subject, it takes a side, ignores everything posted and denigrates every post it opposes.

it does this so often, and so consistently i really do wonder if it's some sort of automated system.

the tos claim that trolling is against the rules - yet this account seems to be somewhat immune to any kind of censure.

it amazes me that this account is there - like a virus - derailing conversations with posts of absolute nonsense, openly mocking anyone it opposes.

have a look at its history - it offers nothing other than contrarianism on every single post.

it truly is quite remarkable. like one of those twitter bots that pretend to be a living person.

 

Wow ... you are a mean person lol.

1. I am not a troll.

2. I am not a bot. Not even sure how you would think that is possible as bots are usually pretty easy to differentiate based on not typically being able to always give contextual responses. Not even going to go much further into this cause at this point you might as well be a conspiracy theorist.

3. Disagreeing isn't trolling, and I really have no idea why you constantly act like it is.

4. Context and location matters on whether or not I agree or disagree. Yes, here on Nexus on these particular subjects like this I disagree a lot because many in the thread disagree with me. But if I talk about this same exact subject, say ... on Reddit ... you will find I agree with a lot of people too because there are more people who have a similar viewpoint as me on this matter. In fact, almost any news article I read .. it seemed the most common comment below it involved how often mods vanish because of drama and how this was a much needed change.

 

Last but not least, disagreements always lead to more being said then when you agree with someone.

5. Derailing suggests I would be taking the thread off topic. But we are literally on topic, meaning it's not being derailed. Derailing a thread would be like me coming here and starting to talk about politics or some crap like that, entirely unrelated to the subject.

6. I don't really mock people. So not entirely sure what you mean. You are the one going around calling me a bot and troll, and mocking admins after they explain their position.

[Trying to understand]

 

 

Nexus mods started in 2001/2 with one teeny who thought a fan site and later a mod sharing site would be cool. And with that, Nexus mods was born. It wasn't Nexus mods then, it was Morrowind Chronicles and TESSoucre. But it grew as more authors got together to share their mods with each other and to share what they knew. It was authors who created the foundation for nexus, and it is mod authors which keep it alive. Users are secondary and probably tertiary to the work of most mod authors.

 

 

The truth is ... if you ask anyone who has seen success within a group, they almost always will think they have contributed the most. It's a real thing, look it up. No one can seem to actually gauge their contribution as well as they seem to think they can ... and will more often than not attribute the success to themselves. And that is what I think is happening here. I think you are not really giving enough credit for all the work that has gone into a place like Nexusmods. But ... hey, I suggest you go give it a try yourself ... and maybe you will then understand.

 

Personally, I make mods for me. Not users, and certainly not for nexus. And when pressed, most authors will tell you the same. There are other sites where mod authors congregate to share our work with each other. Sites without users to tell us who and what we are. Sites where we can share what we learn and talk about mods and modding. Sites without the constant pestering of entitled users who think they are our sole reason for existence. The ONLY thing that nexus has going for it, is that it is the largest site of it's kind. But, it is certainly not the only site of it's kind. And no, I will not name them here, lest they be discovered and inundated by users like yourself.

 

 

It's fine to make them for yourself. But the moment you share them, is the moment it becomes for other users. And if you say otherwise, you are lying to yourself. There is literally no point in sharing something if you are not expecting others to use it. Also, many mod authors are quite frankly just as entitled because they think everyone owes them for their creation. The truth is no one owes mod authors anything because they were not hired to do it, they chose to do it themselves. Don't like the idea of sharing? Then stop doing it lol.

 

Finally, this current debacle isn't about much more than an aversion to Robin's duplicity. Robin has told authors since the days of Morrowind Chronicles and TESSoucre that Authors owned their work and would always have complete control over their content. Turns out, Robin lied. He has changed his mind and now feels perfectly entitled to take ownership or the content created by authors and to keep that appropriated content to improve his corporate profitability. Robin has gone from mod author, in it for fun, to entitled mod user, in it for himself and some money.

 

Nexus wouldn't have ownership of mods, they would simply have distribution permissions, literally given by the owner of the mod due to the agreement between the author and the site's ToS. It's entirely limited to this site. So to try and paint it like they are taking ownership is bullcrap and untrue.

 

​ So prattle on in your ignorance. Your posts demonstrate quite clearly you have no understanding or comprehension of the issues involved, the history behind the issues, or the people involved. They also demonstrate that you have no wish to actually understand the issues, but are here simply to troll.

 

 

You can keep calling it trolling all you like, it doesn't make it true. I am just a person who doesn't agree with you. Also, my comprehension of the issue is just fine.

[Trying to understand]

 

 

The point isn't your original context. The point is that even your own reference is using an example that allows authors to delete their content, like everyone does with a single exception.

 

Your demands for "reasons" is therefore baseless, but in the spirit of this ongoing thread, let me give you some:

1. I may have discovered a security issue in my mod. Many games run in privileged space for various reasons, and mods can have access to that space.
2. I may have included something embarrassing in my current version, such as comments I forgot to delete.
3. I have the right to be forgotten, and that includes my mod.
4. I may don't want to provide old versions of my mod because I want to support new developments in the modding scene and remove the option for supporting old stuff.
5. I may choose to license my mod to a hosting service that gives me a greater donation share to what my current hosting service does.
6. I may have accidentally included copyrighted content without permission from the original authors.
7. I have seen many authors uploading a file, and re-uploading a few moments later. Something clearly went wrong. There's absolutely no reason not to delete such mistakes.

 

Just because I referenced youtube doesn't mean you need to point out they allow content creators to delete their videos, when I never once even suggested they couldn't. You are just saying something I am already aware of. Plus, youtube isn't the same as Nexus, it's not an apples to apples comparison. A better comparison would be something like Curseforge. In which case, they do allow you to also delete your files ... but there is a pretty big difference. Minecraft mods rarely break mod lists. The only time such a thing could is if it's a library mod that another mod relies on (mind you when you load up minecraft it literally tells you the mod is missing it). The only other time a mod missing could cause problems is in cases where the mod list in particular heavily relies on it and there are a lot of recipe changes involving it.

 

Another difference is ... the mod authors over there don't typically delete their mods. Go on any mod page, go to the files section and scroll down at all the different versions of the mod still up. Alphas, betas, full releases ... all still there. Where as here, it's not that uncommon for mod authors to delete the previous version after uploading a new one. It's also far less rare for mod authors to just fully delete their entire mod over drama. Has happened, but definitely not as often as here.

 

Point being is the mods for BGS games in particular are very different and more finicky when you just remove one from your load order due to patches that typically need to be made for such a list to work properly. And I am going to be frank ... I think a big part of this decision in forcing archiving is due to trust issues, as in ... because of the past and the way mod authors have done things, it's very hard to trust them that they will not continue to do it. Especially considering there ARE mod authors here who just hate the idea of collections entirely. There are even a few mods that are removed literally saying that is the reason rather than not being able to delete their mods.

 

Now to discuss the reasons you are giving.

 

1. If you find a security issue, and it's soon after you released the file, it's unlikely it's going to be in any collections that quickly and remain accessible. If you find this security issue later, where many have already downloaded the mod ... at that point it really doesn't matter, it's already being used regardless. Your best option in that case would be to contact Nexus, and let them know of the circumstances, and maybe they can remove it and help notify collection curators. But I am going to say, most mods would not create a "security" issue, at least not by accident.

 

2. So? I don't really understand what you think someone would include in a mod that would be that embarrassing. Seems like an absurd reason. Just don't do it lmao. And if you do ... put something embarrassing in your mod that you didn't mean to leave in ... then contact Nexus and see if they can help you. They may allow you to delete it for that reason if it seems legitimate enough. But again, don't do it. That is dumb ... why would you put embarrassing crap in your mod?

 

3. You can't force people to forget, so I don't know what you even mean by this. Also ... If you want to take it back then don't offer it in the first place.

 

4. There really is no good reason to do this. I don't see how removing an older version of a mod would help in anyway for the newer version be supported in the modding scene. Plus, people will just use what they like to use ... why is that a problem. For example, if one user likes the older version of a house mod ... why is it such a problem they want to use that version? And if more people are downloading the older mod, then doesn't that suggest they like it better? Removing the old version doesn't change that, all it does is irritate people because now you are trying to force them to only use the version you want them too. And then it just leads to other people sharing the older mod through other ways like uploading it somewhere else.

 

5. BS ... I can't even think of a single hosting service that even does that. Nexus is the only modding source that I am aware of that actually donates to mod authors. And licensing? Since when do mod authors give out licenses? In most cases hey would just upload the thing to both places to double dip.

 

6. Contact nexus and I am sure they will help you with it. Like .. I don't understand why you seem to think they would keep files under any circumstance ... they literally said otherwise and files would still be removed in such cases. It's like you all ignore everything that is said.

 

7. If it was reuploaded right away, it will be inaccessible anyway. Again, it be unlikely someone would add it to a collection within such a short period of time. And even if someone did and it didn't work .. they would find out as soon as the tested the collection and would then look to fix it. Meaning it's not even likely it would ever stay in a collection if it didn't work.

 

 

 

 

You missed one.

 

8. One of the team members was found to have uploaded inappropriate images on another site and the rest of the team does does not want to be associated with that member any longer.

Referencing: Fallout: the Frontier. Would those files have been allowed to be deleted?

 

Again, nexus has specifically said they would delete mods in a case by case basis. Mods that break rules, or copyright issues .. .etc. Chances are, if there was something inappropriate in the mod ... they would have no problems allowing it to be removed.

[Trying to understand]

 

 

 

 

 

There are two things you fail to comprehend.

First, it is us authors that built Nexus Mods. Not Robin Scott. Without mod authors, Robin is just a snotty nosed teenager with a dream. But we trusted him and his word that we would always have complete control over our mods. It is only lately that we found out he lied.

 

Second, it is authors that have the gold. We have the power to turn Nexus Mods into a wasteland, leaving Robin with just the mods he has appropriated from deceased authors. The only question is whether we authors have enough fortitude to actually implement a scorched earth policy.

 

This isn't based on reality. I don't think you realize how difficult it is to run a site as large as Nexus Mods. There is a lot of work that gets put into it, way more work than most mods on this site. And it's not even just the site that they have put work into, but mod managers as well. They even created a community that is probably more willing to throw some money at mod developers than most communities out there. They even created a point system to try and give back. It's not something they ever had to do, but they did. You are not going to find that pretty much anywhere else.

 

And if you think it's strictly the mod authors that built this site. Then go ahead, build a competing site. No one is stopping you from doing so.

 

Now as for whether or not you can scorch it all. Sorry, but that would require way more mod authors being on your side. It isn't about "fortitude" it's about a difference of opinion.

 

No one is discounting the effort required to keep this site going, however, without mod authors, it wouldn't be here. At all. There would be no reason for it.

 

Ya, but the same can be true if you remove any factor. Without users, mod authors wouldn't upload it as there would be no point and they certainly wouldn't get any recognition, donations, or anything really. Without some site like this, the mod authors wouldn't have a place to upload it too, or they may not get the traffic that comes from a site like this.

 

Functionally none of it can really work as well as it does missing any piece.

[Trying to understand]

 

 

 

There are two things you fail to comprehend.

First, it is us authors that built Nexus Mods. Not Robin Scott. Without mod authors, Robin is just a snotty nosed teenager with a dream. But we trusted him and his word that we would always have complete control over our mods. It is only lately that we found out he lied.

 

Second, it is authors that have the gold. We have the power to turn Nexus Mods into a wasteland, leaving Robin with just the mods he has appropriated from deceased authors. The only question is whether we authors have enough fortitude to actually implement a scorched earth policy.

 

This isn't based on reality. I don't think you realize how difficult it is to run a site as large as Nexus Mods. There is a lot of work that gets put into it, way more work than most mods on this site. And it's not even just the site that they have put work into, but mod managers as well. They even created a community that is probably more willing to throw some money at mod developers than most communities out there. They even created a point system to try and give back. It's not something they ever had to do, but they did. You are not going to find that pretty much anywhere else.

 

And if you think it's strictly the mod authors that built this site. Then go ahead, build a competing site. No one is stopping you from doing so.

 

Now as for whether or not you can scorch it all. Sorry, but that would require way more mod authors being on your side. It isn't about "fortitude" it's about a difference of opinion.

[Trying to understand]

 

 

 

Ok, so YOU feel that way, and that is perfectly fine. Apparently, there is a selection of folks that don't feel the same. Imagine that, we don't all agree. Amazing.

 

 

So, because YOU don't have a problem with it, you can't understand why others might? You feel free to hand over whatever you make to nexus. It would appear that others just don't want to.

 

I understand that, which is why those who disagree have the option to just use a different platform to distribute their mods, or if they feel the need to ... just keep them for themselves. The issue here is people who disagree with Nexus don't seem to want to make a decision. No one here is telling you are not allowed to disagree. What is being said is that you have to make a choice at some point.

 

If you are only staying here because you think maybe if you hold out long enough or complain long enough ... maybe they will retract their decision ... then you are the ones who need to convince them they should do that. What you all are doing isn't in the least bit convincing though. It's just a back and forth between those who agree with one another without any offering any solutions. It's more or less just "I don't like it, don't do it". And anytime an admin goes into an explanation, no one seems to actually respond to it in a way that they can do anything with. And rather than coming up with solutions to the problems they bring up, many of you just ignore it ... some throw insults, threaten them, say they are lying. It's just a bunch of people pointing fingers without any conversation actually happening even when the other side tries.

 

Multiple options have been presented. Staff has flat out told us they aren't going to change their minds on this. These threads are essentially for folks to blow off steam.

 

Sure, a lot of folks aren't happy about the change, but, the alternative is to nuke ALL of their mods here. Sure, they could re-upload the ones that would like to remain here, but, there goes their download count, endorsements, comments, etc. For some, that is significant. Nexus gave the ultimatum as their 'solution' to the problem. Some choice, eh?

 

Maybe I am missing these options you are talking about cause what I have seen presented is just things people want them to do of which they already said they are not going to. So it's up to you all, to come up with something maybe they didn't think about. Rather than keep giving the same options of which they have already told you why they feel it wouldn't work. For example, many keep asking for an opt out and they have literally gone over why they are not going to do that. Now it's up to you to refute their point, or come up with a different solution. That's just typically how discussions work. If you feel they are wrong, then tell them how they are wrong (keeping in mind it needs an actual explanation and not just say "you are wrong" or "You don't know what you are talking about" or "You are a troll" etc.)

 

Something to really remember is any platform can change. This is the downside to using a platform that you do not own as it typically means you don't have much control over it outside if just giving your opinion. And changes occur for any number of reasons, some of which there will typically always be disagreement over. And sometimes those changes end up not being as big of a deal and are soon just forgotten about. Where as some changes, some people just can't accept and just end up leaving even if it isn't necessarily what they wanted. It's pretty much impossible to do anything that everyone is just going to accept and agree with. There was always going to be push back on the idea of collections because this community has been very vocal in that area, especially some mod authors who just despise the idea. And of course there was always going to be push back on the whole archiving mods thing as well.

 

I just don't know what everyone here is expecting. Outside of airing some grievances, what is the point? Should those who are unsure be looking into what they may do next? Like if it was me and disagreed with this decision, I wouldn't be here yapping, I would be looking at how to deal with it. Maybe even creating my own platform for my mods. Afterall, if it's popular enough I don't think many are going to care where they need to get it from, and typically the community will follow you wherever you decide to go.

 

Download count is honestly just a number, same with upvotes, or likes. I would argue it's actually much healthier learning to ignore that, so if anything having it reset may even be good to try and separate yourself of such a stresses. If you love what you do, then none of that should really matter at the end of the day ... right?

 

I imagine in many cases, some authors may even come back after a period of time. If things continue on, and the change isn't as world ending as it seems ... maybe some can just learn to live with it and set aside that little bit of control. The thing is ... I don't have the answers. I can only give my own view and opinions on the matter.

[Trying to understand]

 

Ok, so YOU feel that way, and that is perfectly fine. Apparently, there is a selection of folks that don't feel the same. Imagine that, we don't all agree. Amazing.

 

 

So, because YOU don't have a problem with it, you can't understand why others might? You feel free to hand over whatever you make to nexus. It would appear that others just don't want to.

 

I understand that, which is why those who disagree have the option to just use a different platform to distribute their mods, or if they feel the need to ... just keep them for themselves. The issue here is people who disagree with Nexus don't seem to want to make a decision. No one here is telling you are not allowed to disagree. What is being said is that you have to make a choice at some point.

 

If you are only staying here because you think maybe if you hold out long enough or complain long enough ... maybe they will retract their decision ... then you are the ones who need to convince them they should do that. What you all are doing isn't in the least bit convincing though. It's just a back and forth between those who agree with one another without any offering any solutions. It's more or less just "I don't like it, don't do it". And anytime an admin goes into an explanation, no one seems to actually respond to it in a way that they can do anything with. And rather than coming up with solutions to the problems they bring up, many of you just ignore it ... some throw insults, threaten them, say they are lying. It's just a bunch of people pointing fingers without any conversation actually happening even when the other side tries.

[Trying to understand]

 

But whatever, this will be the only reply from me. I just can't believe you all are still at it. ... and it's funny cause it's the same people, same conversation, nothing new, same misinformation from people who actually don't know what they are talking about but like to hear themselves talk ... for like 40+ pages now lol. Like as if the ridiculous long conversation on the announcement thread or on reddit, or under news articles ... wasn't enough. But hey, maybe it just needs another 40+ pages. Have fun.

 

 

 

 

And yet, you are still commenting...remarkable. How bout you do what you said you would do? :cool:

 

I know ... right. Yeesh ... I should really learn to not get involved in these things cause I have such a hard time just leaving it. People always typically say things that really makes me want to respond. All well.

[Trying to understand]

 

As you don't have any of your work hosted here, you don't have a dog in this particular hunt, so it really doesn't come as a surprise that you are poo-pooing authors concerns. You aren't the only one though. It seems that folks with nothing vested in this decision, don't have a problem with it. Imagine that.

 

 

Not having content on here at the moment doesn't mean I can't have my own views on things. Plus, I plan to upload here in the future anyway. I could even upload something now if you want just to prove to you that whether or not I have a mod on here really doesn't make a lick of difference in my opinion. I have just never uploaded here in particular because most of my mods where Half-Life DM maps hosted on a site called the snarkpit. Not even sure if the site still exists. And while I have dabbled in the creation kit, I have never actually made anything I felt was worth uploading. But I do have a mod up for the sims 4, on the site modthesims. Could upload it here as well. Just never seen Nexus as much of a sims 4 mod source if you know what I mean.

[Trying to understand]

hence the use of the phrase "contrarian troll".

See this person, literally never answers anyone who disagrees with them and just name calls, and insults. Ignoring literally everything. How can anyone ever come to any sort of agreement or compromise if you are simply unwilling to make an effort and discuss things? This person in particular is the definition of projection. They are the one trolling, but like to call everyone else a troll. You know this is true because at least I am providing my view and thoughts on things and giving arguments. As in I am adding to the conversation. Where as they, it's just .. .as I said ... spewing garbage and nothing more. It's no wonder they have nearly 4k posts. Quantity and no quality. No substance.

[Trying to understand]

Can anyone actually give a downside to this change? And I don't mean ... the "I don't want to lose control over my work" .. I already understand that. What I mean is ... let's say this change occurs and those who decide to stay accept those terms of not being able to fully delete their work, as in it's archived and is only able to be downloaded when it's in a collection. What is the downside?

Point is, it all just comes off to me like an overly emotional response more than there is anything legitimately wrong with it. And it's not like the site is forcing it on you either as it's not like they are taking it without asking. They are giving you a choice and it may not seem like a good choice to you, but it still is a choice.

And ... I also don't see why so many are hesitant to move on. I get, in a way, you could view this site as your home (metaphorically), but right now you have a difference of opinion with the owner of said home. In a way, I guess it's kind like when you disagree with a parent who technically owns the house, or maybe a roommate who is renting a room out to you. It can suck ... I get that. But is it so wrong to just accept the difference of opinion and go your own way? Sometimes in life you will not have all the options you want, so you just have to choose the one that works best for you.

 

@Brabbit1987,

You say that it's "practically no different then when you go on youtube" but it's actually very different because YouTube allows authors to delete their videos.

I didn't say that in that context. You should probably read the entire thing.

 

 

i'd ignore that user they are simply a contrarian troll seemingly given free license to derail every thread they post in, with impunity.

Just disagreeing isn't the same as derailing a thread. It's literally still on topic.

[Trying to understand]

 

 

In a lot ways, the bunny isn't wrong. It is a bit of an echo chamber in this thread.

 

I didnt even read bunny person's comment fully. I started, and after a view seconds...I just laughed and moved on.

 

 

Which is interesting how you are unwilling to read any point fully that disagrees with your own ... isn't it? At least I read your comments even if I disagree with you. Because unlike you ... I am not closed minded in a bubble not wanting to hear anything that could possibly go against my own view. And here ... I will keep this short for you and just leave it at that, since you have a hard time reading.

[Premium cost]

Funny, I have been an on and off premium user and just decided yesterday (technically today, but much earlier before going to sleep) to pay for the lifetime membership ... only to see this news today. Honestly, with the upcoming changes, and being able to download full mod lists ... to me that alone makes it worth it. It's a feature I have wanted on this site for years.

[Trying to understand]

It's interesting this is still going on. I would think those who disagree would have just moved on by now and left instead of constantly arguing back and forth over something that clearly isn't going to change. Just a minority of people in a bubble who can't accept change, and just want to continually argue about it because they think they couldn't possibly be wrong. Think it's some kind of knightly crusade they are on to free people from the evils of this world, or bring truth. To battle the oppressor.

It's practically no different then when you go on youtube and you hear people talking about conspiracy theories and they try and be loud to try and get people to listen, but the only people who ever do listen are just the same people who already agree with them and are often doing the same exact thing. They live in a world of lies, one that they themselves created and just get a feedback loop to make them feel like they are correct.

I have read through a lot of these comments, and people who are against this change ... something I have noticed is they don't actually have any good arguments against it ... in fact ... they don't even have bad arguments, they just don't like it. It's all based on emotion which is why these conversation often end up with insults being thrown rather than actually providing something to refute what has been said. And why they typically go in circles.

And the even more hilarious thing is all the people talking about law who don't seem to actually know how copyright works. All bark ... and no one brave enough to actually try and sue, wonder why. The fact some of you do not understand that you, as in the copyright holder, can give permission for someone else to redistribute your work under a contract, there is nothing illegal about that. And by law when you do that under some form of contract, you must uphold your end of that contract. Being the copyright holder doesn't just give you free reign to undo legitimate contracts that you agreed too.

As an artist (and having made mods in the past), it always shocks me how many people don't actually know the law, specifically in terms of copyright ... especially when they deal in creating content themselves. They only go on the internet and constantly bicker back and forth on what they "think" the law is or what they "think" is or isn't allowed based on what they like or dislike rather than reality.

The entire reason you as the copyright holder can give such rights is because most businesses function in that manner, where you have the manufacturer and the distributor. You can't have one individual making an agreement with a distributor and then just allow them to go back on their word, it would be against the law to do that because you have a legally binding contract with them. That is literally the whole point of a contract, so one party can't screw the other party over. If you could just break it and not have any sort of repercussions in doing so ... contracts would not work.

This means, if you know at this point in time what the ToS is, and Nexus can prove that you are aware, such as in this very thread where you are literally talking about it ... you would not win a lawsuit against them if you chose to upload or keep your mods here. Nor would you even have the moral ground to stand on an act like they are taking away your rights. No ... no one is forcing you to use this site. If you decide to use it, your rights are not being taken ... it is you giving the site permission to have the right to distribute. You can't claim it's being taken when you are the one giving it.

But whatever, this will be the only reply from me. I just can't believe you all are still at it. ... and it's funny cause it's the same people, same conversation, nothing new, same misinformation from people who actually don't know what they are talking about but like to hear themselves talk ... for like 40+ pages now lol. Like as if the ridiculous long conversation on the announcement thread or on reddit, or under news articles ... wasn't enough. But hey, maybe it just needs another 40+ pages. Have fun.

Edit: Funny thing is, the next comment quite literally proves the point I just made. No arguments, just insults, and ad homs. And they call me a troll? XD Amazing. I will say though, they in particular are one of the worst. Literally all their comments are pretty much just spewing garbage, even when it's toward the admins just explaining their position.

[Vortex 1.0 Release]

 

In response to post #72686218. #72735413, #72830348, #72854378 are all replies on the same post.

 

 

 

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

i don't understand how and where there is this huge community of pissed off modders.

not one of them posts their issues in the support forums? don't you find that weird? i do. they fester about a computer program? that's like hating a spanner.

"Oh I'm 100% a hammer man. I hammer everything, ain't no nuts and bolts in my world - just nails. i have been hammering nails for 20 years and won't change now, who do they think they are making nuts and bolts? a "proper" handyman only needs a hammer. don't be coming in here and changing hammer and nail standards, we won't stand for none of that spannering around here!"

it is utterly ludicrous, but i guess people need something to hate, and surely hating some 0's and 1's is better than hating on a person. still odd, and still way out of my understanding, but hey - people, right?

as i said - when this army of pissed off modders can post their issues on the support forums, so that they can get answers, and who knows, make the program better, then we can deal with it. until that day - it's just unproven bullshine and fallacies on the interwebs. which is maybe why they're on reddit, no?

Arthmoor wrote: No. As I explained once before, these are people who have tried that approach before and found the developers unwilling to listen. Cue you assuming they were just being dense idiots though. Seems that's your fallback is to just call anyone who doesn't like Vortex for whatever reason an idiot.

 

Your hammer and bolts analogy falls utterly short of the mark btw. That's not even close to a valid comparison.

 

Also you are again conveniently ignoring the fact that I told you this isn't limited to just reddit users.

Brabbit1987 wrote: Here is the reality. There is a reason the developers are unwilling to listen. It's because those who are complaining are doing so without giving it a chance and actually trying it out. They are doing nothing more than complaining that things should be done the old way without giving any valid reason as to why.

 

You want the devs to listen? Then you need to provide feedback that is more than you just giving your opinion on how something works differently than what you are used to and so you don't like it. And this is coming from someone who doesn't even use Vortex mind you. I use MO2.

 

But I did use Vortex for a while, and most of the arguments against it are simply unfounded. Someone says they can't drag and drop? I call bullocks. Yes you can. It's just done through rules. Need mod A to load after mod M? Drag from the dependency column of mod A to Mod M, and a popup comes up with options like "Must Load After", "Requires", or "Is Incompatible With".

 

So this serves the same purpose and you no longer need traditional physical drag and dropping, right? So then why add it? This isn't just the devs being stubborn or unwilling to listen to actual feedback. This is more along the lines of people overreacting and jumping on a hate bandwagon and devs not listening to the absurd cries of the immature. You ever see how people act when Youtube makes a minor change? I am not talking like some of the major changes, I am talking like little UI changes. People freak out. They act like you just killed their puppy or something. They take it so personal.

 

This happens with a lot of software as well when things are changed. Office is a good example of this back when they first introduced the ribbon menu. Why do developers choose to ignore people who cry about the changes? Because they know it's none sense. They know it's just the internet overreacting as it always does. It happens with Windows often too. There are still people who refuse to use Windows 10 and make false claims about it lol.

 

You can even see this in game development. To the point many game developers don't even want to deal with the drama queens of the internet.

 

Not limited to Reddit? Who cares. Since when is the internet a good indication of something being bad or good? A lot of it is driven by bandwagon mentality rather than them actually understanding it. It's why most of the complainers and those who claim they dislike it, have never used Vortex. It's the same sort of mentality that causes review bombing. People see something happening and the want to be a part of it, especially when it's all dramatic and they feel like being a part of it makes them a "good" person.

Arthmoor wrote:

There is a reason the developers are unwilling to listen. It's because those who are complaining are doing so without giving it a chance and actually trying it out.

Nope. That's not why. Try again.

I can't speak for a community of modders, but specfically in regard to Bethesda modding, it is a fact, and a well known one, that Vortex handles FO4, NV, and Skyrim very poorly. Countless issues are solved by simply switching away from Vortex to a different mod manager, to the point that it has become common practice to ask someone seeking tech support first thing: "are you using Vortex? Yes? Get MO2 or NMM and call us back". Those that do so cease having problems. It's anecdotal, yes, but there's not much incentive to install and test a program when you have evidence, anecdotal though it may be, that it's going to bork your game.

 

I used the community updated NMM without issue for staggeringly huge FO4 installs. Vortex may or may not be s*** as a whole, but for what I use the Nexus for, which is Fallout, Vortex is very much s***. As for why I don't post my issues with the devs, it's because I'm not going to put in the HOURS of work to change over to a mod manager that is likely to completely destroy my game setup in order to reap exactly zero benefits or compensation. Neither is anyone else. We know Vortex doesn't work (at least for our specific purpose); why on earth would we use it?

 

 

See, here is the problem with that sort of anecdotal evidence. Many people don't have these issues. The thing about bugs or a software not handling something well, is it should be reproducible and effect everyone.Typically when only some people have a problem with something it's because they have done something wrong or they are trying to use Vortex beyond what it's capable of. For example, if you are looking to edit individual files in a mod, I wouldn't recommend Vortex. MO2 is much better for putting together mods where you plan to pick and choose certain files from each mod.

 

Also, if someone's way to give support is to tell them to switch software, it means they are not very good at giving support. The only time you should tell someone to switch is when the problem is due to them trying to do something the software isn't capable of. In which case that isn't the software's fault. Just because someone requires a different tool doesn't mean the previous tool didn't work well for how it was intended to be used.