StormHammer81

@HeyYou Been there. Done that. Once upon a time it was fun, but I'm older now and it's too many games and dishonesty. Oh and the "friends" are always the worst. So is the mother. They're both selfish, reckless and inconsiderate. Personally I'd rather die an old man in peace than live a lie. And in this country everyone has to look and act "normal" pfff unless of course you're one of the uhhh "Better People." :wallbash: @grannywils Not bad. Only thing is the Markarth incident. I was going to go Stormcloak too until I read, "The Bear of Markarth" and talked to some of the people in The Reach. Hehehe old dude should change his flag from a Bear to a Skull and Crossbones. The Reachman can't worship their Gods but Ulfric MUST be allowed to worship his... :pirate:

@DKhanno The Empire is strong enough to defeat anyone. Empire's lost some land, OK, big deal. To be honest, the land we lost wasn't worth holding onto in the first place, lol. Really, the Empire is better off being trimmed down to what it is now as it's more manageable and stable, although still, we really need Hammerfell back. This s*** about "Oh it's a decaying and dying Empire" is not accurate. The only thing that is really wrong with the Empire is Titus Mede. He's the one calling the shots and he's the one whose making these bad decisions. Ulfric is capitalizing on the Empire's losses and this sad situation for his own personal gain. He ratted the Empire out to the Thalmor, murdered a kid so that he could have a shot at being High King, he's considered an asset to the Thalmor, lol, he's just a pawn - Not a leader. Don't you think the Thalmor have plans for Skyrim if it secedes from the Empire? Elves are always thinking ahead. Also, what happened at Helgen was mistake. Tullius gave orders to have the Stormcloak's leadership executed for their acts of terrorism against the Empire. Just like how we killed Bin Laden, no difference. When the Stormcloaks engaged in acts of Terrorism and Sedition they forfeited their rights as citizens. The Imperial Captain was told there was no one but Stormcloaks to be executed and then assumed you were a Stormcloak, trying to lie your way out of justice. The reason for torture probably has something to do with Markarth, as the Stormcloaks raped, murdered, pillaged, plundered and otherwise tore Markarth apart during the Markarth incident. They probably figure, if you guys are going to act like animals, we're going to treat you like one. Personally, if Talos had a say in this, I think he would rather people revere him and his work while he was a mortal, rather than worship him. The Thalmor want the Empire of Talos gone. That is a big obstacle for them in taking Tamriel. Your clean righteous Stormcloaks are too much like the Thalmor. It's like two sides to the same coin really. So given what Ulfric did at Markarth, you know... you keep talking about how Baaad the Empire is... then when Ulfric starts executing and exiling and murdering non-Nords or people who didn't support his uprising in the Civil War (like he did before), that's ok. Because that's what you're going to get. Except this time it'll be an entire country. I said this once and I'll say it again, Ulfric is Not High King material. Like Legate Rikke basically said, if Ulfric gets his way it'll just be more Civil War and more violence because people in Skyrim are Not going to want to leave their homes, their businesses, their children or abandon their very lives just because Ulfric has Racial / Personal issues. Lastly, this situation is not as cut and dry as you make it seem like. The Empire didn't want the WGC, Titus Mede II did. It's so typical of the Religious crowd to go on a Witch-hunt or one of their self-righteous tantrums spreading blame and damnation instead of really thinking about the situation and what really is happening. Yes, there were some wrongs committed by Titus Mede II. But, at least he made his decision to try and protect lives and restore order. Ulfric on the other hand, is going to War for his agenda and to feed his personal hate for the Empire. Granted I am a Christian myself, however if this was the US and we had some zealous Governor start invading his neighbors and murdering them in the name of Religion, I would Not follow him even then. Just listen to what a brat he is during the negotiations on High Hrothgar. "Tullius is like, let's stop this insanity and maybe we can..." Ulfric - "No, noooo, I want to everything my waaay waaa, I should never have come here, waaaaa..." I follow no man and if you're willing to follow an arrogant, childish, selfish, blood-thirsty sycophant be my guest.

Heheh right on Ysmir. One last post and I'm out... Found this little gem online and couldn't resist... OMG it's a dying Empire! It's AWFUL boo-hoo-hoo Check this out: http://www.google.com/imgres?start=310&hl=en&sa=X&biw=1920&bih=908&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=gwV4Lwr7LdndCM:&imgrefurl=http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Tamriel&docid=3Oi07TM_QQ0bNM&imgurl=http://images.wikia.com/elderscrolls/images/c/c7/Tamriel_4E.png&w=1861&h=1202&ei=1S6wT46_LYKE8ASSgaHWCA&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=378&sig=102910195303315026877&page=6&tbnh=133&tbnw=180&ndsp=58&ved=1t:429,r:84,s:310,i:121&tx=115&ty=27 Skyrim is going to take on the Dominion and *probably* Argonia (They allied with the Thalmor at one point but then turned on them... well the Argonians are Opportunists after all right?) all by themselves... YEAH!!! Sounds like suicide to me. Somehow I still get the feeling Hammerfell could be persuaded to rejoin the Empire. However, such an enterprise would take at least the resignation of Titus Mede, Re-unification of Skyrim, Destruction of North Watch Keep, Heavy pressure being applied to the Thalmor in Skyrim and somehow abolishing the WGC. Another thing too, I feel that if Ulfric was as Valiant and Noble as he and his crew say he is, then why use the voice on Torygg, who wasn't as skilled as Ulfric. The challenge between them was legal however, the manner in which it was fought was NOT legitimate. Why do you think Ulfric had little Rogvir hold the gate open for him? He knew what he was doing. Which is another reason why Ulfric didn't just ask Torygg to declare Independence. The shout shouldn't have been used in that manner either. Don't get me wrong, I respect and understand where the Stormcloaks are coming from. But Ulfric is too dangerous and shifty. The Empire on the other hand, is set in stone and could be fixed by someone with enough ambition and influence. You are well within your right to take vengeance on the Empire for what happened at Helgen and for the Thalmor's activities. However, seeing how there are still good people in the Empire who don't agree with the corruption and evil in it, wanting change, by taking revenge on the Empire you take revenge on them as well. Which is what the Thalmor want. Of course the Empire most certainly has it's problems too.

@hafnerwwh Thanks again! My Orc character has a 2H Dwarven Battle-Axe of Fire that just annihilates everything. @wintercool LMAO. @wdrewjr Amazing. This is probably one of the most intelligent arguments (aside from my own and perhaps Imperistan :D) that I have ever read from here. Everyone is always like duhhh "Kill the Empire" blah, blah, blah. can't believe so many people are that willing to just turn on the Empire. I mean, according to Hadvar, that chick in the beginning probably thought you were a Stormcloak. Doesn't excuse it but the Stormcloaks can be short-sighted too. However you sir know what you're talking about. This is a weakness in the storyline, you shouldn't just have to choose one or the other. Perfect for a DLC. @ArgonianiteEmpire11 Agree on all points. Looks like the next DLC is something called, "Dawnguard." Will be about Vampires, Falmer, Snowprince and Crossbows. Maybe it will tell us more.

@wintercool Hehehe Exactly, as the actual *shortcut* to Skryim is a WHITE IMPERIAL SYMBOL of Akatosh. Forgot about that one, thanks. Empire is not really falling apart as much as it has fallen apart and regrouped into what we see today. Meaning, the damage is done, sure, however as long as we don't lose Skyrim, everything will be alright. The Empire has changed that's all. And it's Skyrim that's the problem, the entire Empire isn't falling apart, more ahhh in Recovery than actually dieing out - Unless Skyrim secedes. Furthermore, I still maintain that an eventual DLC will allow a return to Hammerfell and when that happens, there will most likely be some main quest that makes it possible for Hammerfell to rejoin the Empire. For just one example, some of the Alik 'r have their house keys on them. I can't wait for them to release that. Going to be sooooo damn funny. For all you other Imperials out there, you've got to see this mod: http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=16130 Absolutely Amazing!!! I've also taken the Liberty of Uploading (5) Screens of it on OCS, top (5) pics.

I think that would make for the Ultimate reality show. He'd be like: "What's this? Awww am I being Punked?"

Ill take that action.

Yep. All true. You know, if you make it through Helgen fast enough you can actually catch up with Elenwen on the way back to the Embassy. She's not hostile or anything like that. :D So, does anyone else on here prefer using two-handed weapons other than me? Is there any way of speeding up their attack rate? Another thing I don't like is how Steam is constantly synching so my game is always lagged.

Ok and I can respect that. "After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact." "Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny." "...so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed." So Ulfric's death would have assured an Imperial Victory and * harmed * the Thalmor's overall position in Skyrim. Then it would have been a simple of matter of rebuilding the Empire and getting rid of Titus Mede II ---> End of the Concordat, reunification of Empire. The Thalmor are playing Ulfric against the Empire. They want the Empire destroyed... Badly. That's why Elenwen was sent as the "intervention" to try and prevent Ulfric's execution. Quite frankly, it would be best if the Imperials and Stormcloaks could just settle on some kind of terms. But alas, that is not meant to be because Tullius might honor it but Ulfric won't. Look at his attitude during the negotiation.

Only thing I would add is the Thalmor want no one to win and for the two sides to continue fighting each other. Thalmor are on nobody's side. Also, I know sometimes I'm critical of the Stormcloaks but there are good people in the rebellion. Same with the Empire. That's what makes this so interesting and such a hard decision to make. But I've seen good people twisted and turned by evil. I just refuse to follow a man who is mad at the Empire's policies, which he made worse and brought them down on everyone after they weren't enforced, then turning against the Thalmor after collaborating with them, giving the Thalmor a reason to enter Skyrim, who instigated another rebellion against a peaceful kingdom, claiming their land as somehow his own, then murdering their people and now he expects me to follow him from Oblivion to Sovngarde and back again with his own rebellion against an Empire that's evil according to him. If someone like Brunwolf Freewinter or Alvor or Jarl B or Vignor or Sun Killer or Stromcloak Jarl of Falkreath, was leading the cloaks, fine I'd join them in a second. That's different. At least they're honest. But the thing is, even if I did that, the Empire would be no more and I would give up any chance of becoming Emperor myself. And this whole nightmare started because the Empire didn't have an heir to the Imperial throne. Later!

I could say the same.

Well, you never know although the Thalmor will send an execution team after you for saving her. Either way, I'm glad to see Titus Mede II get what's coming to him :D Yeah, the only way to have peace with a fire is to put it out. :dance: It's no surprise they put a hit out on him though. :thumbsup: Exactly who put Master Shake in charge of the Empire anyways? :hurr:

Yeah that's what the Thalmor think. And if Skyrim secedes than the Empire is dead and the door is wide open for the Thalmor to rape, murder and otherwise destroy everyone. Or I should say everyone else because Skyrim would be the last place they hit. And they are already in control of Hammerfell. They have to be, if the Alik'r are taking orders from them. The Thalmor probably let Hammerfell go with that understanding because they're hunting members of the Royal Family for speaking out against the Thalmor. Wouldn't that be interesting if that's actually what we learn from the next DLC. It's my understanding the next DLC will be Hammerfell. One clue is some of the Alik'r carry their "House Keys." There will probably be a quest in there where Hammerfell has the option to rejoin the Empire.

It's a fallacy to say the Empire has to fall. I mean, if you don't like the Empire fine. The only way the Empire will fall is if the player allows it by following Ulfric. In a way, by killing the Empire you're killing your chance to become Emperor. Which would you prefer, to follow a murderer or become an heir to the thrown of a great Empire? I FOLLOW NO MAN

Well, the Imperials in a way are the good guys. Ulfric and the Stormcloaks even admit the Imperials are the good guys at the end when Tullius says, "Well then what does that make you?" Hadvar, Alvor, Jarl B and many others are all good Imperials. It's the Emperor whose messed up, the Elder Council is not even on his side, hence the DB quest. Get rid of the Emperor and give the Empire a chance and you'll see things restored to the way they were before.

Perhaps but that doesn't make the Stormcloaks "right." Especially a murderer like Ulfric. And it doesn't necessarily make the Empire wrong. Just things are different now. And after reading "The Bear of Markarth," I want nothing to do with Ulfric or the Stormcloaks. I'll take a corrupt Empire anyday over a Genocidal madman. Another thing too, I did some more research and the Thalmor didn't actually start kicking in doors until after the Markarth incident gave them license to enter Skyrim. And during this time, it is confirmed through the dossier that Ulfric was working as a cooperative Thalmor agent.

Hmmm. I'm more than a little curious about something. Periodically, I come here throughout the week and look at the counts when I have nothing better to do. I'm noticing that... whenever someone chooses "Imperial" within 3 - 4 hours, the Stormcloaks also get a +1 to their count. And this uhhh phenomena *only* happens with Imperials, not Toast and damm-sure not Stormcloaks. It's like somone keeps adding to the Stormcloak score every time a user chooses "Imperials." I dunno, I might be wrong but I've been watching it for weeks and it's like clockwork and there appears to be a pattern to it. Wonder why that is? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?!?

@Victor111 Very Good. Hey, I could drag this on forever but, you know, let's just take a break and see what some of these other cats have to say. The reason for my previous reaction is basically because you kept calling me out and not because of your argument. :thumbsup: Furthermore, please under this. If an Imperial or perhaps yes, even a Thalmor tries to share their opinion on here... and you Stormcloaks continue to rip their post, let me assure you, I will be here to set you folks straight. :devil: Although I was having a legitimate discussion with sukeban. And trust me, he doesn't need your help. Although I respect your arguments as well. It's just, it's like the three of us are hogging this thing and well, give someone else a try. I would however, love to visit the Netherlands and get away from the states for a while. These people over here sometimes - Woo-Hoo!!! :wallbash: Basically, I think sukeban, you and myself have pretty much covered everything, for now!!! :hurr: So let me just say this and I'm off, as this is how I really feel: Ultimately, I'm on the side of the Empire and Skyrim. I do not support Titus Mede II and I do sympathize with the people of Skyrim, just not Ulfric. Believe me, I can understand their need for independence. And indeed, ousting the Empire will make Skyrim an independent kingdom, but the people will not be free. It's like they're trading one problem for another. Whereas the Empire's issues will end with Ulfric and eventually someone, such as Jarl B or Tullis or Elisif or (More likely) The Dragonborn, will finally "Break the Ice" on the ban of Talos, allowing Talos worship again under the Concordat, which to a great extent is already happening, like the Shrine of Talos in the middle of Whiterun. Either way, I really don't see the Concordat lasting too much longer. With the death of Titus Mede, comes the death of the Concordat. Specifically, there were two or three times in game where I either joined the Stormcloaks or was really tempted to do so. The motivation for doing this, was whenever I would go on one of my infamous "Thalmor Hunts", I would initiate battle with them and destroy them in good order. But then, because of this, the "Lawful Faction" (including Whiterun, etc) would attack me because they see it as a murder. Later on I realized, it's perfectly ok to Hunt/Kill the Thalmor but you MUST do it through their dialogue, which in essence, means you must provoke the Thalmor into attacking you. Anyways, as a Stormcloak, I was actually down with most of what I heard... To a point. Most of it. I sat in on this briefing where there plan was to rape, pillage and otherwise destroy Jarl B and Whiterun. I have to be honest, Jarl B of Whiterun is a very nice guy who is a good administrator and goes AGAINST the Concordat by allowing Talos worship in his city. Jarl B was very generous and has taken care of me on several occasions, hooking me up with a NICE set of Nord Steel Heavy Armor (w/ Pauldrons) and other nice things. He did this for the good of Skyrim, not to get back at Ulfric or the Stormcloaks. Jarl B tries to remain Neutral and is very honest, "I'm on the side of Whiterun." I have a great deal of respect for this man. So, as a Stormcloak, I was faced with a choice. Do I... continue with this crusade, which will Ultimately mean me spearheading an unjust crusade against a Jarl who is NOT part of the problem and just cares about his people, EVEN to the point of RISKING IT ALL by allowing his people to openly worship TALOS and exercise free speech in violation of both the Empire and the Thalmor??? Now, I'm sure someone may attempt to explain this, but you really can't. Jarl B allows freedoms of Religion and Speech in Whiterun, doesn't even allow the Empire garrison troops inside the city. He's on the side of Whiterun. So, as a Stormcloak I had to think about that for a moment, isn't that what we're fighting for? A house divided against itself cannot stand. So when Ulfric and friends started talking about how Ulfric will be high king and well, Jarl B won't give us a straight answer so we're going to just have to TAKE HIM OUT. I was like, Uhhhh Excuse Me? Wait... Why are we doing this again? To make your a$$ high king or??? I mean... Jarl B basically embodies both in mind and action what "we" all want. So, now... We're going to go get him because he doesn't agree... with Ulfric? Ahhhhhhhhhhhh... No. In fact, not no but hell no. I'm here for freedom and independence and all that cushy stuff, I'm not here to support someone's political platform. This is wrong. And honest to God, that is how it happened. After I came to this realization, I took some responsibility and went back to Whiterun, answered for my crimes. I was charged a substantial fine + anger management and released. Then I started noticing... different things and finally decided to make my way to Solitude for whatever reason. And the rest is history. I realized that I was wrong. Ulfric was wrong and was using this really messed up situation to HIS advantage. I met everyone from the Empire side of the table and those guys (and gals) are really kool. They care more about the good of the people than what's necessarily good for them and all of them hate the concordat too. So why fight them? I just couldn't bring myself to do it. Don't they worship Talos and hate the Concordat too? It's crazy. Then I started looking for a way not to kill good people, preferably not kill anyone. That means something to me. I believe there needs to great justification before I take ANYONE'S side. So I remembered what Alvor and others had said and it was Titus Mede II who signed the Concordat. And I figured well, ok. So... Let's Just take the Fight to Him Instead. Then I discovered you can indeed DO JUST THAT... ... :dance: Looking at the big picture then, it was clear to meet that the problem WAS NOT with the Imperials themselves. It's not. Tullis and crew are not the enemy here. They want what's best for Skyrim and just want the war to end. Ulfric on the other hand, well, I will NOT allow any harm to come to Jarl B or to the great city of Whiterun. Attacking him makes no sense whatsoever unless you're just in it for yourself. Once again, Ulfric "challenges" Jarl B but the thing is, if the Empire was going to force Jarl B to do something, which they DID NOT DO, Jarl B would have stood his ground against them as well. Jarl B is truly on the side of Whiterun looking out for what is his. Leaving Jarl B in power is what needs to happen. Because given a little time, the other Jarl's will FOLLOW his example. And with the Emperor gone, this leaves room for new leadership and puts the Concordat in jeopardy. It would be the difference between Bush being forced to honor something Clinton signed into law. Politics rise and fall. Honest to God and before everyone else here, this is ultimately my reason for siding with the Empire. I am not necessarily against the Stormcloaks. But I DO FIRMLY BELIEVE that... someone willing to start a war with Jarl B IS A BAD PERSON. Definitely has ulterior motives. If Jarl B is neutral, then there is NO need to attack. None. He's neutral. Ulfric keeps trying to prove a point and the more he does, the worse things become. I understand that Skyrim is just a game. But like in life, I also understand that I am responsible for my actions. And how my actions could impact others. Should I rape, pillage and defile a NEUTRAL city-state (The best hold IMO) who have not threatened or done anything to block my cause? Ulfric attacked Whiterun because they weren't with him, not because there was an actual problem or injustice of any kind there. Another thing I don't like is how I can be in the middle of say, Whiterun Hold and come across a Stormcloak patrol and then they tell me that I need to move. NO! I'm a civilian and this is neutral territory. You have no authority over me, you keep moving! Then they attack me just because I'm standing on, "Their Land." No prisoner escort or anything like that, they're where THEY shouldn't be and I'm just minding my own business. For me, the line is drawn at this point and shall be drawn NO further. The Empire is not itself, sure. But this is because the wrong man was leading it ~ He will be removed. But THE PEOPLE of the Empire are themselves. THE PEOPLE need someone in the Imperial gov to have their voice heard. And Titus Mede II isn't doing that. The Dragonborn will. Jarl B does listen to his people. Why condemn someone who is innocent, why bury one who isn't dead, why give up on an old friend who has kind of lost his way because of another evil person, why take a gun to your family pet who has always loved you but now they're sick and you might have to pay for them to be healed, why break a perfectly good leg which has always carried you, why take a cancer patient whose a member of your family and start removing organs as punishment just because they have cancer and you may have to help them heal, why steal from someone when you already HAVE PLENTY, why condemn someone who holds your ideals but doesn't follow YOU, why BLAME EVERYONE ELSE for what happened to you during the war, why not just GO AFTER the people who started all of this. And that would be the Thalmor, Titus Mede II and Ulfric. Especially since the Empire was doing just fine, again, NOT enforcing the ban on Talos worship (at least not into people's personal lives) until Ulfric came along. Ulfric is on a quest for VENGEANCE. He does not give a f*ck about you or anyone else at all, including who else gets hurt in all of this because that's what happened to him. The White Gold Concordat never should have been signed. But we're getting the head of the idiot who screwed us, all of us. At some point, it's time to stop pointing fingers and time to start acting responsible by putting sh*t back together again, the way it was, the way things are supposed to be and taking the fight to those responsible for this mess, namely the Thalmor. A House Divided against itself cannot stand. Once again, you cannot... Destroy the Empire and then claim you're the Good Guys who are trying to save it. Doesn't work like that. Also killing parts of the Empire which ARE working proper is something the Thalmor would do. Not a savior. You can not convince me to "change" because I already have changed and my reward is before me. :dance: :dance: :dance: "...obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim" :thumbsup: LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

Hey guys, you know the Smithing glitch??? I went meticulously through my Load Order and traced it to "Silver Upgrades.esp" This appears to be the sole cause of the problem for me and removing this mod from my game fixed the issue. :dance:

@sukeban Hehehe. Finally, someone who speaks my language :D That was... actually a pretty good argument. Very well then, let's call it even. I have other things to get back to anyways. Can't wait to see what the next DLC will bring. To be honest, I'm not even playing Skyrim right now because of some really odd glitch in the smithing, where I smith an iron dagger and go from lvl 1 to 52 smithing. Woo-Hoo! Now, that's what I call SkyForging!!! :dance: Yeah I know, OCS turned out really good. I enhanced the Imperials and Stormcloaks too, don't understand why Bethesda didn't think of some of this stuff already, but whatever. Like Warzones said, "Hey mom I went to Skyrim, been here for several months now and the trip sucked, everyone keeps talking about this war but I haven't seen a damm thing!!!" They should really have something where you get to fight Elenwen sometime. That would be kool. Later! "...obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim" :thumbsup: LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

@Victor111 To be honest, your last post was INAPPROPRIATE. In case you were not aware, THIS IS AN OPEN FORUM. Not everyone feels the same way you do. I was going to just drop the whole thing, several times, but you keep coming back, AGITATING ABOUT IT just like Ulfric. And if you think I'm stupid enough to believe that Ulfric is interested in a peaceful solution to anything, then woo-hoo I want some of whatever in the h*ll it is you're drinking. You are splitting hairs and also seem to be the type of juvenile person who refuses to accept someone else's different views or beliefs on something. Also, the Thalmor Embassy Dossier DOES NOT exhonorate Ulfric. This part of the Discussion is most definitely NOT going to be over, not unless a DLC or some official lore says otherwise. Here is the Dossier on Ulfric: Status: Asset (uncooperative), Dormant, Emissary Level Approval Description: Jarl of Windhelm, leader of Stormcloak rebellion, Imperial Legion veteran Background: Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War Against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact. Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed. He has what? PROVEN his worth as an ASSET. Contact remains a possibility. Indirect aid to Stormcloaks. The ASSET should be considered DORMANT. Tyring to protect Ulfric from Death. An Imperial Victory HARMS our overall position in Skyrim. OMG I hadn't even though about that until just this second. If an Imperial Victory HARMS the Thalmor's position in Skyrim, then there you have it. That one sentence SAYS a lot. You want to talk about puppets? ULFRIC IS THE PUPPET. :D "It's Not Easy Being Green..." :dance: THE EMPIRE IS THE ONLY THING KEEPING THE THALMOR FROM DESTROYING EVERYTHING. Tullius is a GOOD MAN and an excellent leader. Again, OMW if you had actually met the man, he would have told you he is the Empire's problem solver. He BACKS the HIGH QUEEN. The legitimate ruler of Skyrim. He is the military governor because Ulfric MURDERED his friend, the former High King Torygg. This is SOOOO Cute. Awwwwww. To bad it's pure B$. Oooooppression. uuuuuuuu ONCE AGAIN THERE WAS NO OPPRESSION OR THALMOR IN SKYRIM UNTIL ULFRIC MURDERED THE HIGH KING AND STARTED CUASING PROBLEMS!!! REMEMBER THE MARKARTH INCIDENT!!! THE DAMM THALMOR USED ULFRIC, AT THAT TIME THEIR AGENT OR ASSET, TO HAVE A REASON TO ENTER SKYRIM AND SETUP THEIR JURISDICTION THERE!!!! ULFRIC'S COLLABORATION WITH THE THALMOR CAUSED ALL OF THIS!!!!!!! o_O Furthermore, it also seems like you are getting further away from the scope of your argument and are like, getting lost in the woodwork. I mean seriously man, Titus Mede II has failed EVERYONE. He needs to go. Sure, I would be for him retiring or otherwise stepping down, but that's not an option here. Yes, we Imperials are willing to sacrifice Titus Mede II for the good of the Empire. Isn't that what he did to us when he sacrificed the Empire for the good of himself, another thing you said too... It is a fair trade. Again lol if you can't see that then... Titus Mede II committed treason with the signing of the White Gold Concordant. Seriously. :wallbash: I would rather see the fate of Tamriel hang on the Empire, than face almost certain DOOM at the hands of the Thalmor or Ulfric. "If Ulfric gets his way, he would ship everyone whose not a Nord out of Skryim." - Bruunwolf guy Please, kindly STOP HARASSING my posts and let this end it. To be honest, I was just kidding about the last post, I meant it but just jokingly. Seriously, this is the reason why I don't go to church anymore. Some of the people in there just go crazy over stuff like this and there's no reasoning with them. Forget it. :hurr: Let it end and move on and so will I. THE MORE YOU TRY AND ARGUE WITH ME, THE STRONGER THE CASE GETS FOR JOINING THE EMPIRE. :thumbsup: "...obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim" :dance: :dance: :dance: LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

@mattlittlej & Thor. Correct. Someone has to answer for this mess. And the way I see it, if I'm going to spare the Empire, then his a$$ at the very least, must pay. He signed the treaty and renounced Hammerfell. Titus Mede II must go. Besides, if you're going to mascarade as the Dark Brotherhood and walk around in their backyard, then you owe them anyways. Simply put, it's all around the right thing to do.

Amen and Amen. (Pics) LMAO @ Good 'ol Tullius. Well, he's only there temporarily. Elisif and crew take over when the smoke clears. Which I think is a much, much better deal than the two d*ckless lunatics in Windhelm. You know though... if I recall correctly, Ulfric says something "odd" to Tullius just before the end. Yeeaahh........ Tullius starts talking like, "This is exactly what they wanted (Thalmor)" and something else, then Ulfric says in a dead-serious tone, "You Just Said It." Like Ulfric is with the Thalmor and he's enjoying rubbing it in Tullius' face right at the end. I don't need that to convince me, just saying. I mean, I hear you but with something like that, I don't blame the Empire for mounting Ulfric's head on a pike. Especially when Ulfric and friends were talking about running a sword through Jarl Balgruff's gullet and raping his city, making a fool out of him. And Jarl B of Whiterun is NEUTRAL!!! He even allows Talos worship in his city!!! WTFH!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? More of this, "Whoever is Not with us is Against us B$." Ulfric is EVIL. Maybe at least for me... that is the last piece of the puzzle. That's it. Not the Forsworn... In attacking Whiterun, Ulfric becomes the enemy of Skyrim. Because, Jarl B embodies EVERYTHING and then some that Ulfric and crew consider traditional and how a true Nord is supposed to be. But it's not about that, oh no. You can be right, but if you don't follow Ulfric, then YOU are the enemy. Even if you're not an Imperial. This is NOT, again I say one last time, NOT how a True High King of Skyrim should act. This is someone in it for themselves and their agenda. And if I might also add, the Thalmor are also the exact same way. So, mounting his head on a pike would send the PROPER message to the Thalmor and to the rest of 'em. I can't prove it 100% but I KNOW Ulfric is with the Thalmor. Another thing too, Ulfric gave up his rights as a citizen of the Empire when he DECLARED WAR on it. There are also, "Halls of the Dead" in every city in Skyrim, Imperial or otherwise. Ulfric can also be a d*ck too, it's not just Tullius. Tullius cares, the man is under ENORMOUS stress I'm sure. In fairness, you have to be tough. You have to be, it comes with the territory. But your attack on Tullius really does not make him or the entire Empire or the Imperial leadership necessarily bad. Once again, you seem to be splitting hairs over this stuff. Tullius is looking at the big picture and is sick of their B$. I mean seriously man, the fate of ALL of Tamriel, literally millions of lives hangs in the balance and all you guys can talk about... is yourselves and what happened hundreds of years ago. I can tell you this, Tullius sees what is going to happen if the Stormcloaks get their way. He sees the end of everything and doesn't understand how these guys can sit and complain about their traditions and their beloved land when EVERYONE'S a$$ is on the line. Lot more at stake here than Skyrim. That's like you and I are on a plane that's about to Crash and I'm trying to get us a Parachute and you keeping arguing with me because I insulted your mother. By the time you win the argument, we're both DEAD. Anyways, Kool bro-ham. That hits me where I live :dance: LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

@sukeban OMG I hate Windows Update so much. Anyways, so I agree but the only thing is, I don't really want peace with everyone. I want to see the Empire restored and things made right again. You have to be so careful about what you do because the damn Thalmor are everywhere and I should say, everyone. Except the Stormcloaks are like the Thalmor in many ways. Really, they're two sides to the same coin. Both Hate the Empire, both are racially biased, both have a "Grand Plan" for whatever and both have strong feelings about religion. Simply put, you can't have it both ways, nor can I. Which do you prefer, saving the Empire of Talos by manning up and eventually taking the Imperial thrown of Talos or Destroying the Empire and getting a new beginning in Skyrim. You Cannot, I say, You Cannot, have it both ways. Walking in the "path" of Talos means saving his Empire, which he started and was his work. If you think otherwise, then you've been deceived. Ulfric once he removes the Empire from Skyrim, will NOT seek to restore or ALLOW it to be restored. You cannot get around this fact. Believe me, I have tried. The Stormcloak Jarls won't allow for it either. Sorry, not happening. This whole sad situation began when we didn't have an HEIR to the Imperial thrown. Now we have one and you want to destroy the Empire. Not Logical or rational to think otherwise. You either Destroy the Empire by helping Ulfric in his quest for Vengeance and hope for the best or you man up and save it. What's your pleasure? Go talk to LOTS of different people in Skyrim like Ulfric, his LT, others in Windhelm, the alchemist in Whiterun and others... The Stormcloaks are racially biased and don't like Outsiders. Ulfric even lets the bandits have their way with them. Go talk to the Dark Elves. Again, saying that the Stormcloaks are not in some way racially biased is delusional. It really is. You even said yourself that Nords don't like Khajits. LMAO. Ulfric IS paying off bandits to do his dirty work and there are bodies of dead Khajits all over the roads on the way to Windhelm. "Skyrim is for the Nords." Remember? Glad I thought of that. Because when the Stormcloaks take over, they're not going to stop the Bandits and others from preying on non-Nords. It will be like and all you can eat buffet. Again, a dark, lawless place. It's not my fault if you haven't talked to some of the people in Windhelm. There's one old guy there, a war hero who knows everything that's been going on and he knows Ulfric very well. A good and honorable man. But I guess he's a liar because he doesn't fit in well with your agenda? WRONG. The game presents only a few whatever, but the point still stands. Just like what happened in American, if you mistreat people just because of race... it.... ahhh..... doesn't matter at all because there's going to be hell to pay for it. I'm a little concerned at how your ethics are so loosely "focused" maybe? It doesn't matter if there's one Argonian whose a stranger or one million. You treat people how you would like to be treated. But yeah, that sh*t in Markath needs to stop but still MARKARTH serves as an excellent example of what happens when race relations break down. None of that should be going on. And it wouldn't be EXCEPT for ULFRIC. Empire couldn't have done it without him. That's fine, I'm of Nord decent myself so, you're absolutely right. Ok, this is Stormcloak propaganda. You've bought into everything Ulfric has said. It's more or less conjecture. It is what it is. I don't care anything about this, this is all Ulfric's opinion. You're getting to much into it. Again racial profiling and economic biased. So if my Nord makes too much money, well I guess he's corrupt too. lol. It's just like the Stormcloaks to make a juvenile argument like this. They live in sh*t and blame EVERYONE else for their problems. They're all bitter and full of spite. Well, well, you've been successful and I've sat around complaining all day so YOU ARE now the reason for my problems. Utter nonsense. "Oh no, those are not the ways of Skyrim, in the old days nobody had any money until the Empire showed up." "Evil Empire bringing money into Skyrim." Seriously. So for the Nords who work their a$$e$ off, make money for their families, chopping wood all day .. instead of fighting and going off and getting themselves killed, they're "heretics now?" This is why we have a separation between church and state. To prevent INSANITY like this. This is also the issue we're having in America right now. Also, tradition does NOT suite every situation. Sometimes it's best to leave the past IN THE PAST. And if I recall correctly, the Imperials are very Militaristic. It's just they have this thing called ETHICS, like myself and would prefer a peaceful resolution than having unnecessary blood on their hands. Which is the best way to go. Remember from Braveheart, "It's our lips which makes us men." "Even a dog has courage." And I'm pretty sure most if not ALL of Skyrim's traditions have been preserved. ie The Moot, The Jarls rule independently, etc, etc, etc... Again, Titus Mede II himself became soft after winning one of the greatest battles in Imperial history through genius tactics, not the entire Empire. This is more of Ulfric'c opinion. I never use ANYONE else's opinion in my arguments accept my own. Empire has NOT failed to respect anyone's tradition. Not once. Ever. The Empire is VERY tolerant, like that idiot in Whiterun who stands around all day preaching a doctrine of hate against the Empire and uplifting Talos right IN THE MIDDLE OF TOWN... next to a GIANT STATUE OF TALOS. Yeah, couldn't have made that one up if I tried folks. The High Queen of Skyrim, who by the way, is being DENIED her right by TRADITION to the Thrown of Skyrim by the Stormcloak Jarls, has a shrine to Talos somewhere in her bedroom. The Empire is also probably the ONLY ones being Tolerant. For another example, the Empire for like 30 years, did not enforce the ban on Talos into people's lives until ULFRIC KEPT AGITATING ABOUT IT. Savy? Ulfric brought the Thalmor to Skyrim. It was him. The Stormcloaks are not Tolerant and the Thalmor damn sure aren't. However, when you have an Empire or the United States, to a certain degree you MUST learn the language and culture. You can bring your own but learn ours because YOU ARE A CITIZEN. Christ...

Sounds good. Only the Dragonborn could do it though. Honestly, I wouldn't trust anyone else, the Thalmor are everywhere.