StormHammer81

Well at least someone's been paying attention :) Now that I have a point we've shifted from you folks saying, "This is how it is" to where "Oh no, it's all just speculation now" Uh-huh. Nice! :wallbash:

@MAC Uh-huh well, everyone seems to think that an Independent Skyrim is going to be Neutral and this ahh "Utopia" of Civil Order. Rather, an Independent Skyrim starts out as a Neutral concept for Ulfric and then later on, we're talking about "Grand Purpose". So, no I don't think Skyrim under Ulfric is going to stay Neutral at all, certainly not for long. More than likely, Ulfric is going to go after the Empire or Hammefell. Remember, there still is "Bad Blood" between Skyrim and Hammerfell over history and territory. I think I'll take the liberty of being the first person in history on here to suggest that Ulfric would go after Hammerfell in the name of Skyrim. Or the Empire. So far he has actually done less than nothing about the Thalmor. Ulfric is not thinking of survival or standing together, he's pretending the Thalmor don't exist and that's how he running things. Like Skyrim has the luxury to meddle in intrigue and fight over pride. Pride is what got us the WGC. He's kind of Childish when you think about it... Furthermore, say what you will about Cyrodil but there is no way you can see this CW as a win-win for Cyrodil. Not possible. Not when Cyrodil is crippled and in really TERRIBLE shape. In the end, Cyrodil would truly be FORCED to sign another treaty with the Thalmor, this time against Skyrim for reals. If you think Cyrodil is in good shape OR will benefit from losing Skyrim then... whew-hoo!!! Furthermore, you clearly lack a complete understanding of where the Empire's strategic planning is coming from, which from what I'm seeing TM2 is not a part of it :) Very inventive. I would not describe General Tullius and Legate Rikke as having a lack of imagination. Certainly, for Councilmen Armand to plan the Grand resignation of TM2 ILLUSTRATES that he has a veeerrryyy good imagination. If the Empire just gives up Skyrim, they may as well give up everything. Furthermore, I'd say roughly 30 - 40% of Skyrim is with Ulfric or specifically with the Stormcloaks. No. The Empire has GIVEN UP entirely too much already. We need to stand our ground and start TAKING BACK and HOLDING ONTO what is ours, or rather what is Talos's, for it's HIS Empire. Even if we have a clown ruling it. Empire can't help what TM2 has done and neither can Ulfric as they are both following their own agendas, not that of the people. Yeah... what you're proposing there is too dangerous and is not reasonable. Would be just like Britain leaving the Allies during WW2 and saying that France would be a good "buffer zone" against Nazi Germany. Remember, Ulfric is in with the Bandits, uhh "Freedom or Sovngade" and duuuuhhh "Your kind doesn't belong here", attack whoever you want as long as they're not a Nord. Furthermore, if the Empire survives, then guess what? We only have to fight the Thalmor on at most, two front. From the South and the sea to the West. That's it with both fronts held SOLID. If the alliance breaks up, then there will not be any fronts, the Thalmor will just walk all over everyone. Because with several divided kingdoms, the Thalmor don't need to worry about multiple fronts. It won't even matter. Did you even read my previous post about this. They'll just start with Cyrodil and carve as much meat off the Roast when and whenever they want. You think Hammerfell or Skyrim will help Cyrodil if Skyrim secedes? Or Vice Versa. No one will care otherwise or help each other, because they'll all be too busy killing each other. Seriously. Oldest trick in the book. And as we all know, Elves are very CUNNING. I know, I've played a High Elf for years, even when people looked down on them for their Elemental weaknesses. I'm not trying to say the Empire is all wonderful, it has some issues but sometimes we have to do things and have to make sacrifices that we don't want because the alternative, giving us what we want, is exactly what the enemy wants more. How many Euro countries back in the day wanted peace with Hitler? Or how many Greeks wanted peace with the Turks? They fought each other over petty differences and then they were all suddenly destroyed because their enemy was unified and didn't care about peace or equality or ethics or if the other people had lived in the land for millions of years before. Difference between wearing the pants and drinking milk. Life is hard sometimes and it takes a hero who isn't afraid of his own shadow to make things right. And where in the hell is PELINAL WHITESTRAKE when you need him?

Yes, he should read the topic. Most definitely. However, his entire argument has not necessarily been disproven. Although indeed, in a way the Empire is the only thing standing in the way of the Dominion. Perhaps other forces such as the Argonians could take on the Dominion, I agree. However, it is accurate to claim the Empire is the only thing standing in the way of the Dominion, because of the WGC. Or rather the WGC is the only thing standing in the way of the Dominion. Indeed, the WGC is holding them back for now but was, I believe unnecessary. Now as for TM2 had to do this or that, then no. You're right on the money. TM2 had options and he chose poorly. Or did he? I dunno. I keep thinking there's something else we're overlooking from that. Like what I was saying about the Thalmor just letting Hammerfell go. TM2 did say that he personally thinks worshiping Talos was a mistake, but that his opinion. Maybe it was just about him. Oh well. What matters most is what is done now. I would think if the WGC got us into this mess, then in some way it would be through the WGC we get out of it. Like if you're bitten by a snake which has locked on to you. You can't simply pull your arm out without ripping it to shreds. You have to grab that snake, reach deeper inside of it, and unhooks the fangs from you arm. Can't wait for Dawnguard.

Hey folks! Hope everyone is doing well. I would love to play Skyrim or argue for a bit however, my house is well, virtually under water at the moment AND I now am the proud owner of some lake-front property.. I did however, get to McDonald's last night :) Later!

If the Thalmor could take the Empire, then why the ruse with the Justicars and Ulfric and the Embassy and all the sideshow Bob crap? I don't think the Thalmor are capable of bringing down the Empire. Although to square with you, if we don't get rid of TM2 the future looks bleak either way. IF the Empire was to get a new Emperor or Empress, such as the Dragonborn, who was a strong, faithful leader then I'd say the Thalmor are up against a brick wall. Now, if Ulfric gets his way, well then, the game is different. Like you said, we don't know what might happen either way, although I know, the Empire of Talos even in it's current state can take the Thalmor and that somethings really shifty about ol slue foot. That's a lot of lives to gambling be on. I'm going with the house on this one. Annnd the Thalmor also know that if they push the Empire too hard, Hammerfell and Empire may put aside their differences and side with each other if for no other reason than survival. Which is infinitely more likely with TM2 out of the way.

Here you are my dear: http://www.google.com/imgres?start=107&hl=en&sa=X&biw=1920&bih=911&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=634cxkpdTDfw0M:&imgrefurl=http://caiomeide.tumblr.com/post/18852327735/dwemeronthemind-half-nord-dovahkiin-and-they&docid=LoYqMSR3X51-XM&imgurl=http://i.imgur.com/EXbas.png&w=400&h=289&ei=mQjpT52pEI-c8QS6qLjeDQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=1075&vpy=474&dur=1387&hovh=191&hovw=264&tx=162&ty=86&sig=102910195303315026877&page=3&tbnh=130&tbnw=180&ndsp=57&ved=1t:429,r:35,s:107,i:199 Would you like fries with that? :D Hey, at least you can worship Talos openly now... *Evil, Demonic, really sinister laugh* aaaAAAHHH-HAH-HAH ... HA-HA-HA-HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA Like Jar-Jar did in that one RobotChicken episode on you tube where the Emperor is falling down in the Death Star... You know what? I would like some fries... and I probably better go get them before My McDonald's gets washed away in this mini-hurricane :)

Yeah, I would have nothing whatsoever against Ulfric and the Stormcloaks being able to keep their land even run it their way. That's not the ending I would prefer, but I can more than respect that. It would be for the best for them to stop this war and settle on something, find some common ground. I do believe in that still. Cause no matter who wins, there's still going to be anger and resentment and division. Be best for them to settle and work something out in the long run.

Well that sounds good, ok? You would have made Socrates or Plato very proud and indeed, that is how I used to be. I say used to be because not too long ago, I went through my own ahhh "Great War." One thing I learned, is it's kool if people want to be themselves and do things their way. That's fine and we need diversity because you might be able to do something better than I, ok? Now. Keeping that in mind, try to imagine instead of... one United States we have no less than 50 separate states. :D That means each state: - Has it's own currency - Has it's own laws - Has it's own Constitution - Has it's own Alliances with other states or outside powers - Has it's own Military - Has it's own roadways which may not connect to the other states - Has it's agenda - Has a different system of Gov than most other states or just different in general - Has it's own resp citizens Ok? Now we're all separate and all going are own way. How much chaos do you think doing things this way would cause? *BOOM* an enemy has just declared War on one or a few of these states. Now, as I learned from my experiences, the "enemy" doesn't care what your Philosophy is. The enemy doesn't care if 25 of these states oppose it and the other 25 are neutral and want to be friends. The enemy doesn't care about what each state values. The enemy is there to Destroy, just like in WWI & WWII. Europe was divided in a manner very similar to this. All these states and dutchies and counties and Monarchs and and and they were ALL Gobbled Up. Because, each state said to itself, well fck-it they'll never bother me, I like whichever faction blah blah blah. Now, I'm presenting a scenario here to illustrate my point that... you can have diversity and all that cushy stuff, however, a system of UNITY is also needed for a society to survive. You can't do it all on your own. Sometimes you must sacrifice some right and freedoms to save your neighbors because no matter what state you come from, you are all the same person. This similar discussion was also played out by me and another group of people one time back when I played wow. The alliance folks are fickle and childish, not taking orders, just all you ever heard from them was what THEY WANTED. But they wouldn't work or take anything from you. So everyone was doing their own thing and it was like pulling teeth to get those uhhh kids to cooperate and take down a boss or fight off the Hord. The Hord. Went to their side and it was like night and day. Everyone had their way, to a point, but we all understand that NO MATTER how BAD things became, we had to stay together and find a way to make it work to survive. And that's one reason why the Hord RULES :D Last example and I'll stop boring you to tears. Alexander the Great dies, his Empire is almost immediately broken up in multiple competing factions. Rome is growing up and taking a look at the neighborhood. King Phllip V is having a mild disagreement with his Greek ahhh "League?" neighbors and it becomes a conflict which is escalated into a WAR by ANOTHER GREEK LEAGUE (STATE) who doesn't like Macedonia or King Phillip. Macedonia gets massacred and assimilated into Rome. Rome doesn't stop there and continues interfering with Greek politics. Outraged, 2 of the 3 remaining states declare War on Rome. They fall. The 3rd state stayed neutral because it wasn't there problem... until now. Then they are conquered. Seleucid Empire and the Ptolemaic Egyptians now are in trouble. Now they have Rome on their doorsteps and the Parthians are starting to look a little more like Persia II each day. Can you guess how this ends? Ulfric was selfish to start this sh*t now. This is NOT the time to bicker about what happened 30 yrs ago. This will only lead to the demise of all parties. Thalmor are regrouping and judging by their sh*tty attitude, they are NOT afraid of man. Man will be broken up into at least 4 kingdoms in Stormcloaks win. One will ally with Thalmor against the other two. One will remain neutral and then just do the math. I understand what TM2 did was wrong and sometimes a central gov can be oppressive like an enemy, like the US Gov is becoming, however, the people always have the right to take back their Gov. If you follow Ulfric, you're just replacing the Empire with something worse, like Fascism. Conditions for Fascism: - Mistrust of Business and Corporations - You and your "Great Race" consider yourselves superior to everyone else - This results in "Forced Resettlement", among other horrible things - The master race are strongly motivated and dedicated to the nation, fielding very strong NATIONALISM Ulfric has all of these traits COMBINED. He is the Jarl of Wendhelm, therefore, he dictates the policies of that state. Murders and rapists running around, forced resettlement, city is garbage, everyone else is fanatically behind him, he chooses who he'll deal with based on RACE etc etc etc No need for me to go any further than this. The thing is what it is. If the Thalmor weren't on our doorstep, then that would be one thing. However the situation is TOO DANGEROUS and TOO VOLATILE to stop and start trying to reinvent government and who is right and who is politically or racially correct or whatever. Only a child would want to start a Civil War in this bad situation. So what if TM2 has had 30 yrs to do something, Ulfric has also had 30yrs to do something. Why now? Is it because of the moons? The way the sun sets? Could it have something to do with a stronger Thalmor presence? Maybe they've got their wind back? And why take the fight to the Empire and not the Thalmor? I know why.

Ahh but we do know it is the result of his policies and we also know there is bad blood between Hammerfell and Skyrim. TM2 was not a good Emperor at all. He should not have just let go of Hammerfell or surrendered. If Abe Lincoln had you're attitude there would be no US.

Arrrggghhh I'm so tiiired... Been working 9-10 hours a day this week. Filling lots and lots of sandbags to because the damn 18+ inches of rain keeps pouring in. So... I think we can all agree TM2 is a d*ck. No matter what happened, at least for me, that dude's as good as dead. If he could retire, I might even let em, but either way he need to leave. Damage done, but hey, I'm an optimist after all. Not sure why exactly, but I am. Now. Given the Thalmor's ahhh tactics and you know, just they crafty devils that they are, I have a theory I'm working on. Just a theory. It's possible. What if... the Thalmor let Hammerfell get away. Just sayin' what if the Thalmor saw that skittles face was going to give them what they wanted, then they learned that TM2 planned on renouncing Hammerfell. So, the Thalmor never wanted a treaty. Their main objective also shifted shortly after the war began, to completely destroying the Empire. They didn't think it was possible and well, you know the rest of that story. At the peace treaty Elenwen is like hmmm "Now I know why we're here." So, the Thalmor were weakened from the devastating defeat at Red Ring but I'm sure they still had forces left, although they were no doubt greatly diminished. So, I'm thinking the Thalmor changed tactics, changed gears. See even if they won at Hammerfell, that's still not doing anything about the Empire, which could counterattack if the AD got any weaker from the Hammerfell conquest, if they had won. My suspicion at this point, is that the Thalmor let Hammerfell go and are after something else. If they can't take the Empire, then there's no real point to taking Hammerfell. I think the Thalmor are waiting for the Empire to keep breaking up. From their standpoint, all they have to do is wait us out. Let us kill each, other, divide ourselves, then they make a day of it because by then and by not keeping the fire going against Hammerfell, the Thalmor would be strong enough to do some damage. Remember, these guys are Mages. And the Camoran's are prob in bed with Dagon or almost certainly receiving support from Daedric authorities. The elves think in long term. :thumbsup: We can all argue till were Blue in the face over why TM2 surrendered, but for whatever reason he did it, it was a mistake. Fate gave the man another chance when Hammerfell was like look, we love you guys, always been there for you, but this is WRONG and we will not stand fer it. Did TM2 listen, no he basically said to hell with you people. Now, like I said, TM2 is at fault here but his Generals and advisers and most of the Empire didn't want this, hence the many years it took after several assassination attempts to get rid of TM2. Some of you folks are for Ulfric but if you think about it, TM2 and Ulfric have much in common. Oh yes. TM2 renounced Hammerfell because they went against *his* policies. Ulfric renounces the Empire, non-Nords, Elves and other Nords because they go against *his* policies. TM2 was more than likely most concerned with Cyrodil. Ulfric only cares about Skyrim. TM2 was in contact with the Thalmor, so was Ulfric after he was released. TM2's family took over things by force, so does Ulfric, killing the owners. TM2 was for splitting up the Empire and his family really didn't do a whole hell of a lot when the Empire was breaking up, same with Ulfric because Ulfric doesn't care about what happens outside of Skyrim, which I suppose is not necessarily a bad thing. However, the Thalmor do care and that is the problem. You can't hold the entire Empire accountable for the evil done on us by TM2. Just like you can't hold all of Skyrim accountable for the crimes Ulfric has committed. The best thing for everyone, whether it be Skyrim or Empire or the other free provinces in Tamriel (for now) is to look to the future and not keep making this same mistakes. The Empire, Skyrim, everyone needs a new beginning here. Because sadly, what's done is done but that's life. Getting rid of TM2 and Ulfric would be a start, along with Destroying Northwatch keep and killing enough Justicars until they get the message. Because after you destroy Northwatch keep, everyone's like "lol the Thalmor got knocked down a peg hahahah." One last point. Ulfric says something interesting in one of his speeches. He's like now we're going to have to fight abroad huyuck Which is basically him going against what he said originally about Oh the soldiers are dying on foreign soil blah blah blah So which is it, no dying on foreign soil or now that my a$$ has power were going to die on foreign soil. Don't be at all surprised now, if Ulfric sends his little crew out fighting Imperials. Ah-hah!!! Oh yes, and in that day I'm sure they'll have an excuse for that too. Well, uhhh Titus Mede adircka dircka blah blah blah Talos, this los, that los. The man's dead by then! I think if that every was to happen, I mean, for me seeing the lie from Ulfric is Crystal clear but by then it would be blatenly obvious that Ulfric is doing the bidding of the Thalmor. Then the Redguards yeah, we're going to get them now and uhh... Well why they haven't threatened us? Oh yeah uhhh hey Galmar group huddle... Oh yeah it's because Titus Mede, Talos this, Skyrim that, Titus Mede. Kind of reminds me of that Family Guy episode where the wife was running for Mayor, she answered every question with 9/11. 9-11, 9/11, 9/11. I would also LOVE to know what he meant by, well we're going to remake Skyrim into what she was before. Ahh yes I see. So, roughly 60% of Skyrim (The Imperial Side) has good infrastructure, good economy, nice folks, good roads, well defended, rule of law (Even if u don't like it). The Stormcloak side is a mess. You have to judge a King not just based on how he does in War but how he governs. Their cities are s*** except for Riften but there is another story which explains that. Ulfric is ruining Windhelm and Eastmarch again, BECAUSE OF HIS POLICIES. I wonder what will be left of Skyrim once he's finished with it. Once he's satisfied that he can force everyone to do thing his way. Again, just like Titus Mede II, trying to force everyone to do things his way and then acting like a little biotch about it when someone calls him on it. No different. Jarl B and some of the others are trying to do right by theirs and survive, Ulfric won't leave things alone. Like some other people I once knew.

@RighthandofSithis Ah! I see what you mean now. Makes sense. Didn't mean to come off rude there :D In the US right now, we're having a bit of an... economic-political-who's fault is it really crises. Now, hmmm... the Empire of Talos has survived thus far and much of the ahhh "Damage" is no different than life. Life has it's ups and downs. Just like the US. America has had it's ups and downs and we've lost some, won some but we're not dying. Neither is the Empire, however, in fairness here there are some things which will need to be done if we're going to save the Empire of Talos. Cause right now it's looking more like the Empire of Mede. Now, TM1 from what I understand, was a pretty good Emperor. He wasn't perfect but he came from Old Skool Empire. To be honest, I like most of you, can't see where TM2, his son, is coming from. This does not mean the entire Empire should ahh "Give up and die" because we have a lame-duck Emperor. Most of the Imperials out there are reformist, not apologists. I wouldn't dare go trying to rationalize or apologize for what TM2 has done, because I didn't do those things, those were *his* mistakes. Or out right failures, whichever you prefer. Or Treason :thumbsup: Now, if we realize that this truth and that TM2 is "No true son of the Empire" then the logical next question is, "What of the Empire then?" What becomes of Talos's work which was the REASON he became a Divine to begin with. Savy? Therefore, as the Stormcloak I was, which I do still respect you guys, (Just not Mr 305) I had to make a choice. And the thing is here, once the Empire capitulates *completely* she's gone. DEAD. Never to rise again or come back. Because the Stormcloak Jarls and Ucaleptics would not allow the Empire to be resurrected and I believe, they also would NOT ally with *anyone*. Besides, there's a pretty nasty feud going on right now even, between Hammerfell and Skyrim over territory. So I thought about it and I don't trust Ulfric, I don't like the Stormcloak Jarls (Although I do respect them), I don't care for how they run their cities or treat their people. I'm not saying that the Imperials aren't rude on occassion, however they have always been kind and helpful to me, often treating me like a King everywhere I go. Also, there this: You talk about how the Imperial Escort was rude to you near Whiterun, I'll take your story and raise you two more. Every Stormcloak patrol or otherwise that I've run across, has threatened me with Violence and Death because I'm standing to close to them. Yeah!!! One time I was in the middle of Whiterun hold and then was in Falkreath on a separate occasion, which neither are Stormcloak territory and both times I was attacked. I tried to have a conversation with them and they assaulted me even though it wasn't their territory. The Imperials will only do this to you if they're escorting a prisoner. I verified that personally, which makes sense as it's not a civilian matter. The Stormcloaks will try to kill you just for being around them. Perhaps they think they own Skyrim, I dunno but I want no part of that. So back to the Empire, if TM2 resigns or otherwise leaves office, then BOOM the Empire has a chance to become sexy again. The Dragonborn is also an heir to Talos, respectively and not having an heir to the Imperial thrown is what got us into this sad situation to begin with. This means there's hope and even more so, a chance for the Empire to be healed and to live on, restored to it's former Glory. But... only someone like the Dragonborn could accomplish this feat. And only he or she could unite Hammerfell back with the Empire and form a strong front against the Thalmor. This can be done. This Civil War is the turning point. Things will either improve or we will all be divided, lawlessness, terror, murder will spread throughout what's left of the Alliance of man if the Empire falls. Ulfric and the Stormcloak leadership will sit back and allow their petty differences with Non-Nords and now Imperials and everyone else to just tear down everything Talos built. The Thalmor are regrouping. The Thalmor are still weakened from the War. They are watching this and playing their hand as well. I will not allow the Thalmor to have it their way. You see what they're doing... they're making Talos's Empire kill itself, because of the rebellion against a ban on Talos which they forced onto the Empire, through a treaty which the vast majority never wanted. And no matter if the Dominion isn't as strong as before, it makes NO difference this time if the Empire loses. Because they could easily overrun and choke off each fractured piece of the Empire, having their agents keep everyone divided politically, and no one could do anything to stop them until it's either too late or they wouldn't be able to do enough due to lack of support. As far as the Dominion oppression against the Empire, if Skyrim was to hold true and stay united, this means the Empire will continue on AND with the Resignation of TM2, you would see Moral sky-rocket and also have a much-reduced Thalmor presence in Skyrim. The Empire is not going to allow the Thalmor to stay in Skyrim if they win. Only reason they're there at all is because of Markarth. Once Ulfric is gone, there's no reason for the Thalmor to be there anymore because the Empire has kept it's word. It would also put the Thalmor in a great disadvantage and probably bring some respect out of Hammerfell for the Empire's plight because EVERYONE sees now, the Empire is Strong and is here to stay. And she is worth defending and she will not be torn apart by anything, including both petty political power struggles or one man's reckless desire to keep his thrown. Once TM2 and Ulfric are gone, a new day will dawn across Tamriel. With the Empire led by the Dragonborn, Akatosh and Talos and all the Divines will have cause to celebrate and support the Empire as they did in years past. And even if the Dragonborn should not lead her, the Elder Council and the Legion ARE NOT behind TM2 and they DO NOT share his insanity. The WGC will surely not last long. The Thalmor will have a choice: Respect the Empire again or Attack now. Either way, change will occur and new voices within the Empire will stir. The Empire of Talos will be reborn and the Dragonborn will be it's salvation. "The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. " - Ulfric Dossier

Certainly. Luck has nothing to do with it. Balgruuf is strong and wise. Otherwise he would have already changed by now. And he's also not dodging anyone. If others are suffering, I'm sure he feels for them but they're not his responsibility. He's got his hands full just taking care of Whiterun and Whiterun shines as an example to everyone else. Which is another reason why Ulfric despises him as Whiterun and Windhelm are like night and day. Again, Ancano? ...has nothing to do with Whiterun. I suppose Jarl B is supposed to take care of the Camoran dynasty too. Which he probably could. Damn right there are no Thalmor trash in Dragonsreach OR Whiterun for that matter. Haaa. Although they do frequent Whiterun hold however, the guards will not assist them if they attack you, but I digress. Yeah but Tullius doesn't use force. This is an important point. There's also absolutely nothing wrong with embellishing your point. It's actually a skill utilized often in public speaking. It's almost like begging or pleading with someone, just using fancy or flowery words. Tullius also openly shares intel with Balgruuf, trying to warn him of the danger he's in. Because at first Tullius wasn't going to do anything but Legate Rikke convinced him to intervene in Whiterun. "Let him stand outside the Empire if he wants." Also, the only city with an Official Thalmor delegation assigned to it is Markarth. Well, I suppose Winterhold too but that's a different whatever. And... the Empire is not enforcing the ban on Talos worship and the Imperials Do Not like the Thalmor. They hate them as much as the Stormcloaks, maybe even more. Tullius sent numerous messages to Jarl B and in the end, he chose Not to use force against Whiterun. And Ulfric on the other hand, he used force to take Whiterun, challenging the Jarl and then didn't even show up at the battle to answer the challenge which he initiated. Do you see now why I have no respect for Ulfric? Now this is interesting. First of all, the Grey-Manes do not like Jarl B. Therefore, why would they ask him for help? Additionally, it was the Battleborns who hooked Tharold up, not Jarl B. This is part of that family feud B$. The mother won't even talk to you about what happened until you're behind closed doors because of the Battleborns. Has nothing whatsoever to do with the Jarl. If they had gone to the Jarl, that would be one thing but they didn't. And I'm fairly certain Thorald was kidnapped somewhere outside of Whiterun. Jarl B is a good, generous, honorable man who protects Talos worship and freedom of speech in Whiterun, standing tall, refusing to acknowledge the WGC, Empire, Thalmor or Ulfric. Just listen to what some of the Whiterun guards say, "Imperials, Stormcloaks, Dragons, Giants, it doesn't matter to me. Let them come." Amen.

LMAO You know, there is a Video on YouTube where Jarl B is holding a big-a$$ party in Dragonsreach. Sight to see. I honestly have no idea about the Chests of Gold but like someone else said on here, he's still got to be one Tough SOB because he's allowing Talos worship and freedom to speak out against the Empire in his city, which heh both of these are very much against Imperial policy. Perhaps the "Chests of Gold" were tribute paid to him by the Empire for being friendly to Imperial traffic or who knows. Call it as you see it, but if this be the case, then he's hustling the Imperials and still doing things his way. Which are two very good traits that I admire in people. Hey, it's hell out there these days. However, I'm sure the Stormcloak Jarls are getting paid by Ulfric as well. In some way. I don't hold this against Jarl B because it didn't change who he is. Chests of Gold or Not, clearly the Empire could not corrupt Jarl Balgruuf into enforcing the WGC.

@robanybody2000 Not accurate according to lore. Any other Jarl, it's possible. Jarl B however, is independent. That's kind of a malicious thing to say about a Jarl who is really sticking his thumb up at *both* the Empire and the Stormcloaks, especially when the Jarl allows Freedom of Religion, Freedom of Speech, Allows Heimskr to conduct services in his house and doesn't allow the Empire to garrison troops in his city. If the Jarl were taking Imperial coin then Tullius could have just ordered him to allow the Empire into his city but no. Because that's not true, the Jarl is an HONORABLE MAN who is not taking bribes or taking SH*T from anyone. Jarl B is STANDING UP for himself and his people. Funny you Stormcloak folks would choose to attack Jarl B. Because he doesn't need the Empire or the Stormcloaks and his people have freedom of speech and religion. True he leans toward the Empire but that is because for a long time, he an Ulfric have not seen eye to eye on everything and now I can see why. The Jarl B believes in taking care of his own and not imposing his will on everyone else around him, he's not oppressive, unlike Ulfric, who wants to force everyone into doing what he wants, much like the Thalmor. @MAC Well, you can believe whoever you want, the catch here is eventually the Empire had to take responsibility and so it's going to fall on them one way or another because Jarl Ingman is Imperial either way. However, Ulfric took the deal a couple of steps further and started murdering and destroying everyone who would not take his side or join the Stormcloaks campaign in Markarth. No one ever told him to commit genocide, apparently it was just in his nature. @BrettM Right, well that's your take on things, like I have mine and so I respect that. Although it's not that Jarl B was as much a fence-sitter as much as he didn't want to get involved or have any part in a needless, pointless War. He openly admits, I'm on the side of Whiterun. And that's how it should be, he's providing freedom and protection and good economy for his people and he's taking care of sh*t. Which is how it should be everywhere. Jarl B like myself, is not out to save the world or force others into anything. He's just trying to live and be the best man he can. Hehehe (Not talking about anyone on here) It's his neighbors that have the problems and they keep trying to drag Whiterun down with them. Another thing, Cidna mine is run by the Silverbloods, not the Empire. Fruthermore, heh, Markarth and ALL that Silver are the FIRST thing Tullius puts on the table at the negotiation. Yeah. Tullius even against the other Imperial reps present is willing to give up Markath and it's Silver in the name of peace. You left that part of the story out. And here's another part you left out: "Margret, an undercover operative of the Imperial Legion, was sent to Markarth by General Tullius to retrieve the deed to the mine. The Legion feared the Forsworns and Silver-Bloods were Stormcloak sympathizers, who wanted to exploit the violent criminals imprisoned in the mine and use them against the Empire." Tullius doesn't want the Silver he's more interested in the corruption and exploitation of the workers in said mine. And as it turns out, Tullius was right. Also, The Reachmen became the Forsworn AFTER Ulfric's slaughter of them, which is still a strong memory in their hearts. Before then it was different. They were honorable and they were fair. And then Ulfric massacred them for power. Also, I don't think it's right to murder my neighbors in the name of the Almighty. I deal with my own problems. @RighthandofSithis Well, heh first of all, if you are a Communist than I really don't think you're someone to advise us on the economy. Because I have several friends from Russia, Chec and even a Greek friend and they told me all about the horrors that came out of Communism. Although I'll give you this, there are different flavors of Communism and to this day only China has ever been able to make it workout for good and Canada made Socialism work, but that's them too. Although they have their issues over their but I'm not Chinese. Europe and the US are dying from Socialist policies. We just can't keep paying for socialism and socialism is a cousin of Communism. I'm not a communist and I'm also not Capitalist. It's also too bad these damn Hospitals and CEOs are screwing people so bad over in the US. But I digress. The Empire of Talos will only die if you let it by taking up with the Stormcloaks. Then I would agree, it's dead and that would be a tragedy. Then you would basically have (3) kingdoms competing against each other, which is exactly what the Thalmor want. The Empire has changed from what it was. It's not dying it's just a survivor of the changes taking place in Tamriel. For some reason, too many people view a loss of power as "Death". Not true. Sometimes loosing something is the best thing that can happen to you, although it may not seem so at that moment. The Empire of Talos is very much alive and fighting for it's life. If something is fighting for it's life than it's not Dead. Quite the opposite actually. Skyrim is much the same. Their fates are linked. If Skyrim dies, then the Empire dies. Granted though, there is much class struggle going on probably not just in Skyrim but throughout Tamriel in general.

Right well Ulfric hasn't changed, he's always hated the Empire every since he was captured. The entire Markarth Incident was illegal in every respect and transformed Ulfric into a Master Butcher. The then "Reachmen" reclaimed their land (the 10 kingdoms) and for 2 years had a peaceful, strong kingdom in the Reach. The Empire was working with them to establish a treaty when the Jarl Ingman's sons made a deal with the Devil. Neither the Jarl or Torygg had any knowledge of what was really going on until after the attack on Markarth had already started. Read the Bear of Markarth (If you haven't already) it and other sources talk about how Ulfric murdered, raped and pillaged his way through that Kingdom. He put Men, women, children of all ages to the sword for not coming to his aid when the city finally fell. Ulfric and the Stormcloaks killed so many innocent people it was like the Rawandan genocide and it's because of this the Reachmen went crazy over it and became the Forsworn we all know and love today. The Empire actually did give in to Ulfric's demands and for a time allowed Talos worship. Then, not too long thereafter, the Thalmor found out about his (like they didn't already know) and used this fcked up situation to gain a foothold in Skyrim. According to the Dossier, Ulfric was in contact with the Thalmor during this time and after like you said, he got screwed, then he became uncooperative. Ulfric hasn't gone threw any sort of enlightenment at all here. He's out for VENGEANCE. Especially against the Empire. Neither Torygg or Skyrim or the Empire were prepared to go to war with the Thalmor at this time. And how could they, now that the Stormcloaks have started their rebellion. As this incident was the final straw that's divided Skyrim today. Torygg actually was more of a man that Ulfric. He wasn't trained in the voice, ok. Nonetheless he had the courage to face Ulfric on his Ulfric's terms. That's not a coward. It's called a setup. You were in the military, I was in the military, so we both know what a setup is all about. Ulfric apparently had the balls to stand up to a young man but not enough to face the Empire, as he got his a$$ out of there and left a good man to die. Running away after something like that is the cowards way out. Furthermore, the Stormcloak cities are garbage (except for Riften). The people are rude, infrastructure sucks, economy sucks, racist. Windhelm is a piece of feces. Ulfric freely allows the non-Nords to be thrown to the bandits, doesn't care. It's not enough to judge a King by his method of War, you also have to look at how he lives and governs in general. Making Ulfric a big failure at all of it. The Imperial cities are totally different, kind of a business atmosphere but that's good! Jarl B even allows Talos worship and freedom of speech in Whiterun. No true reformist or enlightened individual would go attack a place like Whiterun unless they're out for power. In fact, I was a Stormcloak myself until I heard the two of them talking about torching Whiterun and running a sword thru Jarl B's gullet. For me, that was it. We're here for freedom and all that cushy stuff and now we're going to go attack a city... that is free... and yet, is Imperial... just because the Jarl and people there don't agree with you? Am I doing this so Ulfric can be High King or? Oh no, in fact hell no. Ulfric's ethics seem somewhat selective. Jarl B is however, a good, generous and enlightened man and Empire or otherwise, I will follow where he leads.

Hey guys, also don't forget to head on over here and cast your vote: http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/690522-who-are-the-good-guys-in-this-war/page__st__180__gopid__5607441#entry5607441 Currently, the Empire is a little behind, so if any of you Imperials or Stormcloaks wants some of that action, head on over and vote, leave a comment.

@sukeban Sup bro-ham. Just like old times :D Agreed. Oh and I almost forgot this: Kool. So you and I are going to duel right now. You go get a sword, your bare hands and use your honor as a Shield. I'll be bringing my RPG with a trunk load of ammo, my personal hatred for well, everyone else and my swinging-cod. When I win, it will be fair and legal. I'll also be taking your kingdom and that fine-a$$ wife of yours too!!! :dance: @MAC You and I can duel afterwards, same MO. Everyone please have everything ready for me before my *caugh* hard fought Victory cause afterwards I'll be in a big a$$ hurry. I'll also require *someone* to hold the gate open for me afterwards, so I can escape, you however must stay behind and be beheaded so I can run back to my throne in the middle of Siberia and tell everyone what a bad-a$$ I am (From Mr 305 to Mr Worldwide). Please don't forget to pay the taxi man in advance. I would but I'm too cheap. :wallbash: Freedum or Sovngarde... or something... whatever. OK THX BYYYEEE!!!

@Mac Well, the Empire is Not really corrupt. That's just it. Everyone wants to think of the Empire as evil and corrupt when it's TITUS MEDE II who is got some problems. That's why I'm sooo glad he resigns, then we're left with an Empire that can start a new, possibly even with the Dragonborn as it's leader. Torygg is not working with the Thalmor. That's guilt by association. Legate Rikke is not friends with the Thalmor. Virtually no Imperial I know other than TM2 is with the Thalmor. The Empire doesn't even enforce the Ban on Talos, they just looked the other way. It was Ulfric who brought the Thalmor to Skyrim and it was Ulfric who got everyone in trouble trying to promote self. With the big "dueler" running home like a little biotch afterwards, leaving a good man to die in his place. Pure coward. You want to answer to a coward, be my guest. Titus Mede II is leading everyone down a dark road. This is all his doing and if one man can screw everything up, then another can fix everything, ie The Dragonborn. Really?!? You're serious :D Oh let me see, uhhh How About Ulfric's Point of View? Ulfric is Very Biased and Very much One-Sided. It's maybe not your point, sure, but it is a valid point. Elisif is not working with the Thalmor lol Neither was Torygg. They were just trying to preserve the Empire. And actually, Ulfric himself verifies most of what they said. It's just you and my opinion of murder. That's it. There is NO EVIDENCE to support that Torygg was cooperating with the Thalmor on anything. None. Another thing, this Dossier does hold water. Because it does say that contact was re-established with Ulfric after the Great War and he was particularly useful during the Markarth incident. So, at least for a time there Ulfric was collaborating with the Thalmor. He turned uncooperative AFTER The Markarth Incident which opened the door for the Thalmor to have a presence in Skyrim. The Thalmor *Broke* Ulfric's mind. They know how to get to him, the Thalmor lied to him and planted the seed for Ulfric to help them destroy the Empire. Additionally, it was Not Torygg but Jarl Igman son's who made the deal with Ulfric at Markarth and then later, Jarl Ingman backed down from the Thalmor. The whole thing was a Grande setup to get the Thalmor into Skyrim but the Thalmor betrayed Ulfric. It also says that, "...Ulfric's death and an Imperial Victory would have greatly harmed our efforts in Skyrim." - Thalmor So you're saying an Open-minded person should just... look past that part of the Dossier? The fact that communication was reestablished and that Ulfric's death would set things straight, nah that's not important. We have to focus on the objective, get rid of the Empire yeah! What about the Thalmor? Nah man... it's kk. The Empire is the bad guy because Ulfric screwed everything up yeah!!! How many missions does Ulfric give you to fight the Thlamor? How many? ZERO. NONE. Because up to then, the Emperor could tell the Thalmor whatever in the hell he wanted and the Thalmor were *forced* to take his word for it. Ulfric's little invasion at Markarth changed all that. Before then, there was NO Thalmor presence in Skyrim and the Empire had the ball. Afterwards, the Thalmor stole influence through Ulfric. Empire does care about it's citizens, they weren't enforcing the ban on Talos until Ulfric started whining about it. WGC said nothing about patrols or taking over the Empire. The patrols and the current situation in Skyrim are solely because of Ulfric's meddling. That's why once he's dead and gone, there is no more reason for the Thalmor to stay in Skyrim or at least in their current setup because the opposition to the treaty is gone. And as far as Gold is concerned, it's my understanding the Empire is in somewhat of a financial crises itself, as seen by the East Empire company and those high taxes Ulfric is talking about. Which I'm sure, there was a lot of damage done.

@MacSuibhne Not at all to argue with you, but that particular statement doesn't fit lore. First of all, Elisif worships Talos and even has a Shrine to Talos hidden in her quarters! Secondly, the Thalmor have absolutely *nothing* to do with the Skyrim royal family, especially sense they were getting ready to go indpendent. And if King & Queen worship Talos and their court is loyal... then I would say yes, they're a very reliable and honest source of information. @fraquar Actually, Torygg was leaning towards independence from listening to ULFRIC's speeches at the moot and the Jarl PTA meetings. Ulfric tried to silence Torygg and as you can see, it's backfired. :pirate:

So, regardless of whether or not Torygg was a good king, a bad king, this guy or thata guy, he was still THE KING, chosen and supported by the Moot who represent the people of Skyrim. Now, if you go talk to Elisif's court they will tell you, that basically Torygg was seriously considering standing up and declaring indendence from the Empire, savy? Yeah, the woman who *knew him real well* :D basically tells you that Torygg greatly admired and respected Ulfric for wanting to be independent from the Empire. However, she also says that this is still Talos's Empire and Torygg wasn't ready to *let* it fall apart. And as someone else said, Torygg couldn't have done anything without the Jarls and that's what everyone thought Ulfric was there for. To show his support for Torygg and them stand together delaring Independence... LIKE THEY DID IN HAMMERFELL. :dance: Based on that right there, we learn that Torygg was a stronger King than Ulfric. Because even though he agreed with Ulfric, he was willing to stand up even to Ulfric for what he believed in, *On Ulfric's Terms*, preserving the Empire, preserving the work of Talos. And Ulfric, like some folks I've known in the past, couldn't argue with that. So Ulfric engineered a way to *Get Rid of Torygg* so he could have his way. It had nothing to do with Torygg not doing his job as much as Ulfric wanted Skyrim to follow him and what he wants. Just because Ulfric struck Torygg down in cold blood doen't mean Torygg wasn't right or wasn't a strong, caring man. Which is one of the reasons why the whole Duel concept was done away with, it's not an accurate means of resolving a conflict. All it means is just like in Markarth, Ulfric will do whatever it takes to get what he wants even if that includes murder. As for Elisif, she was never meant to rule alone. What if Ulfric challenges her to a duel now, I guess that would make him 2 for 2. Ulfric put her in this position, if an Alligator comes at me out of nowhere and takes my leg off I guess people can laugh at me for being a cripple when I had no say in it. :wallbash: Ulfric cares little or nothing at all for tradition, just whatever serves his purpose. Another thing, this whole *duel concept* is outdated. Now don't get me wrong I respect the tribal ways. But, these are modern times and Skyrim is under Imperialism. Not a Tribal Council. Technically speaking, that duel was illegal because it was illegal. Just like today, if you don't like the President or Governor or whatever elected official, going and killing them does not necessarily fix anything. So what you're saying is that John Wiliks Booth by shooting President Lincoln, proved himself to be more worthy of the Presidency. Cause that's basically what Ulfric did. He shows up under a flag of truce and instead of supporting his King, his friend, he carries out per-meditated murder. The Duel System was a function of the Tribal Council and while it was once used, is not a part of Imperialism or Skyrim's modern day society. There are rules of law that exist for a reason. Then there are other rules and ways of doing things that may have been done in times past, but were a part of that time period and that day's society and are no longer relevant, being a component of a former system of gov/soc. Furthermore, back in the Ye Olde days, the pagan era, when a duel was fought, both combatants fought each other on EQUAL FOOTING or not at all, using basically the same armaments. The purpose of the duel was to put both men on the same level, have them fight it out and let the Gods decide who was more worthy for whatever reason. :devil:

Yeah... The Imperials are not racist at all. Please don't include the Imperials with the Stormcloaks on the racism part, racism is a Thalmor and Stormcloak (Ulfric) attribute. The Empire may be a lot of things but it's not racist. The Empire is no more cooperating with the Thalmor than the Thalmor are cooperating with them. Both of them are using the WGC to say one thing and pursue their own agenda and Ulfric is also using it to further his. There is no soft, cushy, warm alliance between the Empire of Talos and Aldmeri Dominion, it's all on paper only. Especially once Titus Mede II leaves office. Things between them are going to deteriorate real fast, because the WGS is TM2's treaty, but it's Talos' Empire! Both of them are caught up in a whirl-wind waiting to see how things turn out in the Civil War. Like someone said, the Dominion has been weakened so... that's why they needed a point man, like Ulfric. One way or another he is serving their interests and I'm glad I fought for the Empire. Another interesting thing, when you clear out the Thalmor at NorthWatch Keep, the guards are like, "Hahaha the Thalmor have been knocked down a peg..."

The Empire is strong enough to defeat anyone. Empire's lost some land, OK, big deal. With the situation - Then - we were going to loose some Provinces anyways. To be honest, the land we lost wasn't worth holding onto in the first place, lol. Really, the Empire is better off being trimmed down to what it is now as it's more manageable and stable, although still, we really need Hammerfell back. This s*** about "Oh it's a decaying and dying Empire" is not accurate. The only thing that is really wrong with the Empire is Titus Mede. He's the one calling the shots and he's the one whose making these bad decisions. The fact that the Elder Council wants TM2 Dead, this alone proves there's hope and that the Imperial leadership knows they're done wrong. But they can't just go up against the Emperor alone. And furthermore, Ulfric is capitalizing on the Empire's losses and this sad situation for his own personal gain. He ratted the Empire out to the Thalmor, murdered a kid so that he could have a shot at being High King going against "The Way of the Voice" (This alone proves he's unworthy of being High King or using the Thu'um), he's considered an asset to the Thalmor, lol, he's just a pawn - Not a leader. Don't you think the Thalmor have plans for Skyrim if it secedes from the Empire? Elves are always thinking ahead. Also, what happened at Helgen was mistake. Tullius gave orders to have the Stormcloak's leadership executed for their acts of terrorism against the Empire. Just like how we killed Bin Laden, no difference. When the Stormcloaks engaged in acts of Terrorism and Sedition they forfeited their rights as citizens. The Imperial Captain was told there was no one but Stormcloaks to be executed and then assumed you were a Stormcloak, trying to lie your way out of justice. The reason for torture probably has something to do with Markarth, as the Stormcloaks raped, murdered, pillaged, plundered and otherwise tore Markarth apart during the Markarth incident. They probably figure, if you guys are going to act like animals, we're going to treat you like one. Personally, if Talos had a say in this, I think he would rather people revere him and his work while he was a mortal, rather than worship him. The Thalmor want the Empire of Talos gone. That is a big obstacle for them in taking Tamriel. Those clean righteous Stormcloaks are too much like the Thalmor. They're both like two sides to the same coin really. So given what Ulfric did at Markarth, you know... you keep talking about how Baaad the Empire is... then when Ulfric starts executing and exiling and murdering non-Nords or people who didn't support his uprising in the Civil War (like he did before), that's ok. Because that's what you're going to get. Except this time it'll be an entire country. I said this once and I'll say it again, Ulfric is Not High King material. Like Legate Rikke basically said, if Ulfric gets his way it'll just be more Civil War and more violence because people in Skyrim are Not going to want to leave their homes, their businesses, their children or abandon their very lives just because Ulfric has Racial / Personal issues. Lastly, this situation is not as cut and dry as it may seem like. The Empire didn't want the WGC, Titus Mede II did. It's so typical of the Religious crowd to go on a Witch-hunt or one of their self-righteous tantrums spreading blame and damnation instead of really thinking about the situation and what really is happening. Yes, there were some wrongs committed by Titus Mede II. But, at least he made his decision to try and protect lives and restore order. Ulfric on the other hand, is going to War for his agenda and to feed his personal hate for the Empire. Granted I am a Christian myself, however if this was the US and we had some over-zealous Governor start invading his peaceful, innocent neighbors and murdering them in the name of his Religion, just to prove a point, I would Not follow him even then. Because spreading more division and chaos isn't the answer. We need accountability and leadership, not uhhh going door to door dragging people off in the middle of the night because they belong to the wrong Religion, taking hostages AND we also don't need these other guys going door to door murdering, and kicking people out of the country, confiscating their property because they didn't support your political faction in the last Civil War or you just so happen to be at the wrong end of the gene pool MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :D Just listen to what a brat Ulfric is during the negotiations on High Hrothgar. "Tullius is like, let's stop this insanity and maybe we can..." Ulfric - "No, noooo, I want to have everything my waaay waaa, I should never have come here, waaaaa..." Another thing too, people talk about how bad Tullius is and all this stuff, the Truth is Tullius acts rough on the outside and has a big heart on the inside. He just doesn't show it. Notice the skull on the table in his room, it means he is one of those people who contemplates Death! Some of you know what I mean. Tullius comes off tough but he's really quite thoughtful and cares for everyone. However, he also happens to be the head of the Legion and probably one of the last major Imperial Army Leaders with any real respect, so he can't back down and can't make any mistakes. But it's Ulfric who is putting the Legion in the place of the Bad-guy here. I'm starting to wonder if the Empire's plan for dealing with the Thalmor included getting rid of TM2. Perhaps that's why it took 30yrs, they had to wait for the right time to spring a coup. Which does make sense, if they just killed TM2 that would lead almost directly to Civil War. But if some third party executes him, that leaves the Elder Council and Legion blameless and still able to govern. Which could also be what ahh Armand? meant when he said it took years of planning and patience to make the assassination of TM2 even remotely possible. I follow no man, especially an arrogant, childish, selfish, blood-thirsty, Thalmor asset-sycophant like Ulfric. What happened back then is done and over, much like Titus Mede II's rule. What matters is what the Empire does now and I seriously don't think Talos would trade his Empire for a madman-puppet being used by the Thalmor. It's easy to view the Stormcloaks as the Good guys, because even I was once one of them, however, sometimes the Greater Good is not always easy to see or easy to follow. Especially once I met the Empire and had a better understanding of what is really going on here. Narrow is the gate which leads to life, few go therein. Broad is the way to destruction and there be many who go in. "...obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim" - Thalmor Dossier

:facepalm:

Grooy! It's good stuff. However, you got it half right. That takes care of Ulfric but telling anything to Tullius or the Emperor is going to only go so far. An idea I had, was let's get rid of the Emperor FIRST (Don't have to necessarily). Then, when you have your little pow-wow with Mr Summary Executioner and Knucklehead (respectively), you could be like, "OK folks here's the deal, as High King of Skyrim and the only known living heir to Talos, effective immediately I am taking command of the Empire." And then that would put the screws to Tullius as well. I think he'd go for it, especially once he got to know you. If TM2 still sat on the thrown though, this would lead to another Civil War. Unless he would resign willingly. Then as the Emperor, you could do as you please, restoring Talos worship and ousting the Thalmor Not Just in Skyrim, but throughout the Empire and still keep everyone united. There can't be anymore division. Taking command of Skyrim is well and good. Ultimately, someone needs to get on the Imperial throne and put a stop to the madness. I have a feeling regardless, that this starts Skyrim but later on it will end in Cyrodil.

Double Post My Bad!!! :facepalm: