Moraevik

This is not only thread necromancy, but revives an old thread with a totally unrelated question. I'd suggest starting a new thread with a title that properly introduces the problem, and make sure you tell in that thread exactly what line she's repeating. Also, put it in the Spoilers area and not in the general area, since what you posted is, essentially a spoiler, revealing the identity of a person that the game attempts to keep secret from the player until a certain point in the Main Quest is reached.

I'm pretty sure I know who the "friend" is. You'll get verification of the identity of the writer of one "friend" note early in the Main Quest. Hint -- retrieve the Horn of Jurgen Windcaller for the Greybeards. You'll have to read a note from a "friend" to advance the Main Quest and then meet that person. There's no reason to believe that this isn't the person who writes the rest of them.

This has been a known bug from virtually day one. I'm pretty sure that what falls is the last thing you killed and it generally, if not always, happens on transitions (like fast travel or exiting an interior cell into the Tamriel world-space, or perhaps when crossing exterior cell boundaries). I've seen it happen with just about anything -- dragons, giants, sabre cats, skeletons ... and in some cases I've been able to verify that it was something I had killed earlier, either because it had a unique name or because of contents I left in its inventory.

Hey, guys! I'm still here -- just took a bit of a hiatus over the holiday, came back and installed a mod and it bugged my save game, so I've been trying to resolve that. It looks like kryptopyr is much more qualified than I am to do the things we've been discussing, but I'll be digging into the CK and quests over the next couple months to see what I can add. Perhaps at some point we can bring together all the various anti-railroading mods that exist and make it into a single package. I agree with kryptopyr and gsmanners that a lot of the problems we've been discussing are related to hand-holding, but it's way overboard in this game. It's Bethesda catering to the lowest common denominator, which isn't a bad thing, really. The problem with that is that Skyrim is rated for mature audiences, but the game seems to be designed for people who need help tying their own shoes every morning. Isn't it enough to be told that to learn more about magic you should visit the College of Winterhold? Can't find Winterhold? Well, ask the guy who runs the carriage service to take you there? Can't find the College once you're there? You shouldn't be playing Skyrim. Some things need to have quests and quest markers, but I think a lot of these need to be left to player resourcefulness. What's wrong with expecting people to keep notes on what they hear if they're interested in it? I think a very nice addition to an anti-railroading mod would be a private journal that allows players to do just that, but within the game and not on a notepad kept alongside the computer. kryptopyr, your Thieves Guild mod doesn't work for me. I'm going to try a clean start and go straight to Riften to see if it might be some mod-related problem. Brynjolf still force-greets me and I'm still forced to disable him with the console so that I can do normal stuff in the market area or in the Bee and Barb, when he's hanging around in there. I think one of the issues might be my stealth-related skills (which includes only lock-picking), too. Brynjolf can't know about these. Heck, the guards shouldn't know about them, but we all know about Bethesda's love-affair with the whole "psychic guard" thing. A better approach to your mod, I think, is to eliminate the forced greeting. You won't hear his spiel until you choose to enter into conversation with him. When you find out what he wants then you can tell him you'll do it or tell him to take a hike. If the former, then it initiates the quest. If the latter, then it doesn't, but you still have the option to speak to him again later on to get it, but there will be no journal entry to listen to his scheme. Leave it up to the player to remember you have to talk to him. It's pretty obvious, after all. Related to this, Maul's forced greet should also be disabled. It's just irritating to have to listen to him rant when you first enter Riften. Furthermore, I just completed the Civil War quest-line (sided with the Imperials), so Maven is Jarl and Maul is sitting in there with her at the table and he still has to annoy me with his "I don't know you ..." routine. Maven likes me. She wants me to be her Thane. Just about everyone in Skyrim knows I helped the Imperials win the war, and the only reason Maul is in the palace is because of that. He doesn't know me? Give me a break! I suppose "quest clean-up" is a different issue than "forced questing", though. Frankly, if I were actually the guildmaster of the Thieves Guild I'd have Maul drawn and quartered and fed to the skeevers for insubordination because of his "I don't care if you ARE one of us ..." diatribes. I just hate the guy -- even more than Brynjolf. If that was Bethesda's intention then they sure did a great of job of it, and I'm not being sarcastic with that remark.

With the novice perk this reduces the cost of a 400 point novice-level spell to 200. A beginning character still only has 100 magicka and you'll have to get to level 10 in order to bump that up so you can cast a single novice-level spell. I repeat ... you have eliminated mage characters from the game if this is the case because no mage character will be able to cast a spell before level 10. This means that in order to survive it will be necessary to pump skill points into non-magic perks for ten levels before you can afford to start buffing your magic perks, since the magic perks will be useless until then. I honestly have to say that, if the cost of novice level spells is as it has been mentioned, that you really haven't thought this design feature of your mod through to its logical conclusion. Nobody is going to use a magic mod that prevents the player from casting ANY spells at all until he reaches level 10. Furthermore, if you're pumping your points into magicka, instead of health, until level 10, and can't actually use your magicka reserve because you can't cast any spells, it's unlikely you'll even survive to level 10. Skyrim should then be littered with the corpses of would-be mages, except, of course, the NPCs won't be hindered by this restriction. I don't think this mod will improve the magic system. As I currently understand it, your mod will cripple mage characters. Also, slipping "stealth features" (like altering all basic stats for all races) into a mod which isn't advertised to deal with those things is a Bad Idea. First of all, people want to know what they're getting before they get it. Secondly, when they download a mod that deals with the magic system, they don't want it fiddling with other aspects of the game. It's possible they already have mods installed which do that, and your mod will then introduce conflicts that might not be possible to resolve. Making these features "opt out" is equally a Bad Idea. Making them "opt in" is OK, especially when they're unrelated to the basic premise of the mod.

I fully understand your perspective, kryptopyr. However, the only reason that something appears in your journal is that you have a quest for that entry. In this sense, every time an unwanted journal entry appears you have been forced to accept a quest, whether you choose to pursue it, or not. Frankly, I'm with you. Let me have the option to delete the entry from my journal. I think journal clutter is one of the most irritating things in this game, even though I know some people consider it a non-issue. Most of the railroading can be solved with something that seems, conceptually, very simple to me. Unfortunately, I don't have the scripting expertise to solve it. When you're involved in any situation (conversation, greeting, reading a book, touching an object, etc.) that can force a quest into your journal, you should be presented with a pop-up that asks you if you want to accept the quest or not. If you choose "no" then the script that forces the quest will simply not do so. This would solve the problem for all veteran players who are already familiar with the ramifications of their actions. For novice players the problem is a bit more difficult. You might not know, for instance, about the moral ramifications of helping the Vigilant in Markarth. So, perhaps, said pop-up might warn the player that helping him will initiate a Daedric quest and that the quest will contain features that some players might find objectionable, including the cold-blooded murder of two people. This will give the player the opportunity to back out of the quest before it ever gets assigned. Yes, I know. This isn't strict role-playing, and is a bit of the "hand-holding" I complained about, earlier, but it's far better than presenting a player with a good character the dilemma of not being able to get out of the house without committing an evil act. And, yes, I know. You can just revert to a prior save, but that's as immersion-breaking as giving a player warnings about possible moral repercussions of actions that the game tricks him into doing. Another solution to this would be to insure that the house can be exited without interacting with Molag Bal, or be given the opportunity to tell him just where he can stick his mace. Either option could trigger the failure (and therefore end) of his quest, and you'd be done with it forever. Another instance would be encountering Meridia's Beacon and picking it up. This initiates Meridia's quest. Now, I can't imagine anyone, unless he's playing a character who wants nothing to do with the Daedra, not wanting to do this, but some people might not. Perhaps the Beacon could be made so that it is droppable, rather than getting stuck in the inventory as a quest item. If you have to actively accept the quest that Meridia attempts to force upon you, then it never gets flagged as a quest item. Once you accept Meridia's "offer you can't refuse" then it becomes a quest object and her quest gets logged into your journal. At least this preserves the role-playing. These all seem like what should be fairly simple scripting changes, but I know nothing about Papyrus so I could be off-mark, here.

@tomislawus: I have to echo tg08096. Especially at low levels having a 5-sec charge-up time for spells if you're playing a mage-type character is going to be fatal because most of your opponents are going to get in at least one, and possibly several free shots on you before you can even throw up a defensive spell. You might try adding a delay for spells above novice level, but not including novice level, with a cap of 5-sec for Master level spells, that are either defensive or offensive. I don't see a point in making utility spells like candlelight have charge-up times. If nikolas is correct about novice level spell cost then you've just eliminated mages from the game and made it impossible for a beginning character to even join the Mages College. Faralda is going to ask you to cast a spell, and you're not going to have the magicka to do it until you've put a LOT points into Magicka. You can't cast a 400-magicka cost spell until VERY late in the game, if at all. @nikolas55255: Not sure what your CW problem has to do with this thread, but I'll comment, anyway. The default CW for a beginning character is 300 and only goes up as you pump points into Stamina. If you're at 75 then there is either something horribly wrong with your game or you have a mod (probably a "survival/reality" mod) that lowers carrying capacity. I'd suggest that you look into that first if your game is modded. A CW of 75 is going to be very restrictive on you in this game. If you can't get it solved then you can mod your own CW. Use the following console command: player.setav carryweight nnn ... where "nnn" is a positive integer.

Not quite the same, sinnerman. That topic is related specifically to Dawnguard. This one is about the base game, without Dawnguard and the option to include Dawnguard in comments. I agree that the latter is redundant and people with Dawnguard should post in the other thread about that. Me, I have never been a vampire in the game. I don't like the restrictions that come with being a vampire in ES games (at least Skyrim and Oblivion). I tolerate being a werewolf for the sake of the Companions quest-line, and usually don't cure myself. I don't actually use beast-form in the game, though. I see it primarily as a way to be immune to disease, and I can (just barely) tolerate the irritation of guards commenting about hair growing out of my ears (I'm currently experimenting with a Khajiit character over several play-throughs, so you can see the irony in that), smelling like a wet dog, and complaining about howling from Jorrvaskr.

@kryptopyr: I haven't set a particular goal, yet. This topic is for discussion of options that we, as players who want to play the game our way, might be able to have. Avoiding comments, rumors, etc., is one of those ways. Not having those initiate quests is another. I don't know which is better because some people will go with one and other people will go with the other. This thread is for discussing the issues and possible solutions to the issues, even if those solutions are mutually exclusive. I actually do use your mods for the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, and have had them enabled for my last two play-throughs. I haven't tested the Thieves Guild one, yet, because I notice that every time I approach the market area Brynjolf starts walking toward me so I just disabled him, rather than take a chance on getting jerked into a conversation I don't want to have. Note that this happened even when I first went into Riften and had a completely clean nose -- no thefts, no pickpockets, no tresspasses, and not even an assualt. The only entry in the Crime section was for picking locks, which is nearly unavoidable in this game. Not everyone uses the USP, although I can't for the life of me, figure out why this is so. Yes, it did fix the infinite Red Eagle quest bug. I'm not sure about the Bard's College bug. I still don't pick up those items when I see them in a chest. I use a mod that at least makes the Stones of Barenziah able to be dropped. It's not a perfect solution. Best would be the ability to talk to Vex about them even if you're not a member of the Thieves Guild. Once you have all of them then you can sell them to her and that's that. Over and done with. If you later join the Thieves Guild then you should be able to acquire the follow-up quest to restore the crown. @sinnerman69: For the record I don't feel offended by your persistence in attempting to argue the merits of the Freedom of Choice approach to this game. I just find it terribly annoying that you continued to post off-topic in a thread that has a very specific and clearly-stated agenda. If you want to contribute something positive (reports of railroading, how to avoid it, or suggestions on how to mod it away), then you're welcome in this thread. If you don't, then just don't post. Getting a page of argumentation about the merits of Freedom of Choice is just going to put people off. I want to keep this discussion civil and friendly and on-topic. You're welcome to your approach to the game. I'm welcome to mine, and I know a lot of people share my sense of disappointment that Choice has all but been eliminated from ES as of Skyrim. This thread is about bringing it back -- not about arguing whether or not Choice is a good thing, or whether or not it's possible to have fun playing in a game where you aren't shepherded around like a total moron, or even bashing Bethesda, which I'm sure a lot of people would like to do. I have a lot of fun playing Skyrim, even though I don't feel compelled to play it like the developers intended. I'm sure they made their design choices for what seemed to them to be good reasons, so I'm not arguing that. It's just that I have to rely upon the moddig community to fix things that I think were broken, unfinished, or not well thought-through. I felt the same way about Oblivion, and will probably feel the same way about the next ES game. I'd probably enjoy Morrowind, because it doesn't have a lot of the issues regarding Choice that later ES games have. Unfortunately, I'm not willing to invest in a game that likely won't run correctly, if at all, on my Win 7 64-bit machine, so I'll probably never know. As for the current generation of ES, that's what the modding community is all about -- tailoring the game to suit our own particular needs and desires. So, let's just be friends and agree to disagree on our philosophical approaches to game design. As I stated, there's room in this world for both. Everyone to each his own, as the old saying goes.

Edit -- double post

We know that Bethesda intended Skyrim for completionist players, but you don't have to cow to this strong-hand effort by developers to get involved in every quest. This is an attempt by Bethesda to cater to the lowest common denominator of the gaming community, which I suspect has a cumulative IQ barely above room temperature, and needs to be led around the game by the hand. Nobody said anyone wants to avoid 80% of the game. Having choice is not exercising avoidance. Maybe I want to get involved in the Dark Brotherhood, but I'd prefer not to have my journal sullied with an entry to talk to the Aretino boy because the first rumor you can get from any innkeeper is that one. Maybe I'd like to hear some other rumors, and get that one behind me. I know about the kid. I can go to Windhelm, find him, and talk to him at my leisure when/if I'm ready to deal with the DB quest-line. This is what I mean by "choice". As it is, many of these quests are rammed down our throats, cluttering our journals with unnecessary and wanted verbage because they are things those of us who actually do role-play in this game would never do, and would never log into our journals in the first place. I'm not a completionist and have many hundreds of hours of enjoyment out of Skyrim. So have a lot of other players, all without feeling that its necessary to do the Main Quest, every Daedric quest, and every guild quest. If you're one of the many completionist players, then bully for you. Have fun playing the game your way and let the rest of us discuss how we can have fun playing it our way. There's room for both perspectives in this world and neither is more valid than the other. As I said, though, this thread is NOT for berating this thread. Just because you don't like the idea I'm presenting, here, doesn't mean you need to jump in and take up space which is useless to the people who agree with me on these issues. This topic is for discussion of those issues AS issues and not as the non-issues you seem to think they are. Neither is it for debate about the validity of railroading in a game or whether or not modders can or will address the points I've made. In fact, there are already a number of mods which attempt to address some of them. Make your own thread to present your ideas. We already know them and the people who disagree with you are going to find this thread informative and helpful. Your comments are neither and will only serve to derail this topic and render it useless to the people who seriously want to see these issues addressed. If you have nothing positive to add, relative to the purpose of this topic, then please don't add anything.

Check out this thread on the wiki: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:A_Cornered_Rat#Bugs If that doesn't work you might try this: In the console type ... "movetoqt mq202 1" Note there's a space between the second "2" and the "1". This will put you inside the room. He's still not going to respond to you so unequip your weapons and pummel him with your fists (he's essential, so you can't kill him). This might get him to open the door and talk to you and is a known solution to this bug. Alternately, try the following three commands: prid 19dfd disable enable This should reset his AI, although I've never had this problem and can't vouch that it will work in this particular case. I can't offer any advice about the DB quests because I don't have enough information on what you've done, so far, or what the problem is. Do you not get the rumor when you talk to an innkeeper? No guard mentions it? The kid and lady outside the Aretino residence aren't talking? You've got the rumor but you don't get a quest update? Be a little more specific and maybe someone can help you with this one.

You didn't say what console commands you tried, so I'll suggest this: prid 1c1a5 moveto player Execute these two commands while you're standing just before the spot where Faralda is supposed to be and she should appear for you. You might have to type "moveto player" twice, exiting and re-entering console mode before the second time. If she then doesn't respond by demanding that you prove yourself before enering the college, then type: disable enable This should reset her AI, assuming there's something glitching it that prevented her from being there in the first place. If this doesn't work, then I haven't a clue what might be wrong. Regarding your mods, I've only used two of the ones you listed -- the USP and Deadly Dragons. These do not cause that issue, at least for me.

In console mode type "help <name of spell>" and you'll get a list of IDs for every spell that has that name -- usually just one. Then type "player.removespell <ID>" and the spell will be removed from your "spell book". This will even work with spells added by mods, powers, and shouts. You just have make sure you get the spelling exactly right. Note that you do not use quotation marks in the console and the angle brackets are just there to group "name of spell" together. Neither are part of the actual console command.

(sinnerman69): You're missing the point, completely. Not everyone is a completionist. I've played this game several times without ever touching the Main Quest. If you don't do the Main Quest you don't need Call Dragon, and you won't be getting into Sky Haven Temple or Skulldafn, anyway. Nirn is not Earth. Don't confuse the two when you talk about the Medieval time period. And, no, I don't agree that the entanglement forces the player to make decisions. More often than not it removes all the decision-making because it forces you to accept a quest which is linear with no options that actually affect the outcome. You play it from beginning to end as a scripted character in a story that's already been written. As for the Daedric artifacts, a lot of us have grown past the stage where we think we need to acquire all the achievements. In fact, I don't get any of them because I play off-line and Steam has no clue what I'm doing. As far as I'm concerned the quest to get all those achievements is something to kids busy playing the game. I have better things to do in Skyrim than try to be everthing that it's possible to be in it. Limitations are what makes the game interesting to veteran players. (RileyEvan): No, Brynjolf doesn't force you to join the Thieves Guild and I never said he did. What he does is force the introductory quest on you and it remains in your journal forever if you don't go along with his scheme, AND he keeps hounding you about it until you accept his offer to begin your walk down the path to the Dark Side. Same with Stormcloak and Legion soldiers. It's MY flipping journal. If I don't want to be involved in the Civil War why in the heck would I write in my own journal notes to join the Imperial Legion or the Stormcloak Rebellion? Even more curiously, why would I write BOTH of them in my journal? And you know what? You have to have both of those in your journal in order to get Ulfric and Tullius to go the stupid peace conference! It's not about destroying the illusion of immersion by ignoring this stuff. Sure I'm aware of these things. I'm just not interested in reminding myself about them. Now, everyone. Criticizing the intent of this topic is off-topic. If you approve of railroading then start your own topic to discuss that. This one is about dealing with the railroading and NOT accepting what the developers are trying to shove down our throats, so please keep comments and discussions to that. There's plenty of room in the world for both points of view -- just not in this particular thread. This thread is resource for players who are feeling railroaded and for me, or some other modder, to use as a reference for fixing these things. Mixing in contrary points of view accomplishes nothing productive, here, and just makes it more difficult for the people who read this thread to find useful information. Everyone is welcome to his own opinions, and I respect the right of other people to disagree with me, but in turn please respect the purpose of this thread and keep it on-topic.

I'm a guy and I play both male and female characters, although I prefer to play females. Don't ask me why, because I really don't know the answer to that, and, no, I'm not experiencing gender conflicts. IRL I'm quite happy with my plumbing, thank you. With respect to Skyrim, I think one of the things that put me off about playing male characters is that the males tend to be uglier than the females. I know a lot of people think the NPCs look great in this game, but I think most of them are comparing Skyrim to Oblivion, where the faces tended to be absolutely horrid. I've played games besides Oblivion and compared to some of those the models and textures used in Skyrim seem very outdated ... almost primitive. They completely ruined elves. I spent a long, long time fiddling with the character creation process in Oblivion to get a cute Bosmer, and she really was cute, too. Forget cute/handsome in this game, though. Elves in general in Skyrim are absolutely hideous, at least to my eyes, and the males even more so than the females. From a perspective of nothing but esthetics, then, playing females is the lesser of the two evils for me. I like to play as a Khajiit, and that's been my preference ever since Oblivion. The reason is that in both games the beginning special abilities suit my gaming style. They did to Khajiit the same thing they did to elves. The faces are blocky and unnatural. Some say they were modeled after real cats. Those cats must have been severely deformed, is all I can say. Male Khajiit are way behind the females in appearance, more so than any of the other races. Again, this is just my own personal preference. I'm sure some people would disagree, and that's fine, too. I like to play in third person, except in combat, although I'm starting to learn to do that. The reason is the relatively tiny field of view. I can't push it much beyond 100 degrees or the fisheye effect is so distracting that I just can't live with it. This means I have to look at my character most of the time. If I'm going to do that I'd prefer looking at an attractive body/face, rather than one that looks like it spent the last 20 years being a prize fighter and just crawled out of the sewer. And, no, I don't use any of the body mods. I'm not into huge breasts and huge butts, and that's what most of the body mods for females are slanted toward. Besides, I don't think any of the creators of those mods have a clue where nipples are supposed to be, but that's a different matter, I suppose. The only body mod I've seen for males turns them into hunks. I like normal proportions in both genders. Now, if someone would create a body mod that improves upon vanilla without making female characters look like they have installed several thousand dollars worth of silicone into certain places, or makes males look like they've invested ten years into intensive body-building, I'd download it in an instant. I loved Oblivion for the modding community, and Robert's body replacements were the best. I just wish he'd do the same for Skyrim and I could really enjoy playing a female character who looks like a normal person and not something out of a nightmare or a porn magazine.

I think you've got your knickers in a knot, there, daventry. Seriously, though, I don't see this as an issue. First of all, you don't have to pick up the Dragon Stone. Leave it in the corpse, return the Golden Claw to its rightful owner, then troddle on to Whiterun and speak to Farengar after Balgruuf introduces you to him. Then you can go back to Bleak Falls Barrow, retrieve the Dragon Stone and take it to Farengar. So you don't have to carry it all over Skyrim with you. As far as I know the draugr's corpse will remain there forever, so it's not going to disappear from the game. Better, wait until Farengar sends you to Bleak Falls barrow to go there. I do like your idea about the Word Wall not giving you your first word of Unrelenting Force until you've seen the Greybeards, but there's something to be said for getting it before you have to fight Mirmulnir, too. After all, using Fus right after slaying him will enable some additional dialog in which you get hints that you're the Dragonborn. This is verified by the Greybeards later, of course. The basic problem with having to visit the Greybeards to enable your ability to learn words is that this isn't how the lore of the game is set up. You're Dragonborn by birthright. It's supposed to be an inborn ability, but you only find out about it the first time you encounter a Word Wall, and the game is scripted so that you can't get the Dragon Stone without first getting Fus from that Word Wall. This is so you can learn the second word, Ro, when you meet the Greybeards. Trust me ... Fus, all by itself, is as worthless as nipples on a boar. I don't even bother using Unrelenting Force until I get all three words. I do think you should have the ability to ask around to see if anyone might know what happened to you in Bleak Falls Barrow. Something happened, but you really aren't quite sure what it was. That was certainly my impression on my first play-through. I knew about shouts, since that was one of the selling points of Skyrim, but I had no idea what was going on, and actually backed away from the Word Wall, thinking it might be some sort of arcane trap. The people you talk to should direct you to the nearest source of arcane knowledge -- Farengar, although you'll be hijacked into speaking with Balgruuf first. That's OK, since that's how the quest is supposed to proceed.

I don't know what to say about that, then. In a single weekend I can put in about twenty or so hours if I decide to do a gaming marathon, and I can easily progress from right out of Helgen to level ten or so. And that's with avoiding anything that artificially levels my character, such as the Guardian Stones, training, or skill books, all of which I never use because I think you level up way too quickly in this game as it is. I have not quite 27 hours of play on my current play-through. I'm using a mod that lets me play as a monk, so I'm not using melee weapons. This slows down level progression quite a bit (something the mod creator actually warns people about), and, again, I'm avoiding anything that boosts level progression speed. I'm just over halfway through level 16. This is why I'm amazed that you can't get beyond level 5 with over three and half times that many hours playing. The problem may be that you're not using your skills often enough to get them to level up. If all you're doing is running around trying to cure yourself of vampirism that might be contributing to the issue. I've never done that quest, so I don't know how "skill intensive" it might be. Also, if you're mostly using skills that are already at high levels, you'll find yourself progressing more slowly. That could be part of the problem, as well.

Sinnerman, I'm looking for non-console methods to solve these problems. In other words, to make the solutions to the problems part of the game, rather than something that's really outside the game. In some cases you have no choice, such as disabling Brynjolf so you can do business in Riften without him hounding you. And I'm well aware that you can tcl past the gate to get into the mage's college. I've done that on one occasion to finish collecting all the Stones of Barenziah when I didn't want to join the college. Again, though, that's a kludge for a trick that is angled at forcing you to join the college. If you're not a mage-type there's really no other reason to go into the college. Yes, I listed the problem with encountering Stormcloak or Imperial patrols on the road. I just avoid them by giving them wide berth, or I use the console to disable greetings, since the monologue that initiates either branch of the Civil War quest-line is a greeting and not an actual dialog choice you have to make during a conversation. I'm sure the developers made it that way so you couldn't avoid the Civil War quest by just not talking about it, but the console fix is a pretty simple one. I have it in a batch file "greet0.txt" to set the greeting distance to zero. It disables all greetings, but by the time you've heard them a hundred times or so they start to get ... well, repetitive. I don't mind doing some of the Daedric quests even when I'm playing a good character. I love Sheogorath. He has more personality and is better voice-acted than any other NPC in the game. I loved him in Oblivion, too, and I was delighted they brought him back with the same voice actor for Skyrim. However, there are some hard core role-players on this site who have expressed the desire to be able to play through the game with no contact at all with any of the Daedra. This is why I included their quests as "railroading", since some of them are blatantly forced upon the player. The "advanced" shouts like Clear Skies, Dragonrend, and Call Dragon (or whatever it's referred to as) are unnecessary if you don't enable any part of the main quest or if you don't finish "Dragon Rising". On the other hand, I'd love to be able to get Dragonrend without being involved in the Blade's shenanigans. I think that some way to enable just the quests related to the Greybeards, and skip the stuff people don't like about the Main Quest (such as that ridiculous peace conference) would be a wonderful addition to the game. In fact, I'm stuck right now with trying to get Ulfric to talk to me about it, and all he wants to do is to recruit me into the Stormcloaks. So far nothing I've tried to fix this long-known bug has worked. There are parts of quests that are severely broken, like in this case, and I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't miss them if those quests never happened.

That's kind of stretching things a bit, Ganit. The journal is actually written in the form a diary. Pay strict attention to the wording. In most cases it's exactly as though you're writing this stuff into the journal, yourself. It's a big leap out of what little reality can be present in a fantasy game to think of this in Elder Scroll terms. As implemented, the journal is actually a kludge by the developers to insure that the player doesn't forget about quests. That's probably a good thing, in and of itself, but if that's what it is, then the wording should be crisp, official, and not presented as though the player wrote it there. It would be no more artificial than is the HUD or inventories with potentially hundreds of objects and nowhere obvious to put them. Actually, I'd prefer the journal to be a real journal, where the player can actually write the things he wants to write into them and to indicate those quests he wants to accept and those he declines never show up in it. Oh well, it's an irritation, but it's something I'll put up with because I really enjoy playing Skyrim in spite of all its little bugaboos

I have an idea for a worthy mod, but I want to talk about it, here, rather than in the modding forum because the information presented in this topic might help some readers avoid the railroading that is rampant in Skyrim. What I want is for people to help me ferret out all the little dirty tricks that Bethesda put into the game to force most of the major quest-lines into the player's journal, whether the player would be interested in pursuing them or not. I also want to hear suggestions about how these things can be avoided in an unmodded game and how a mod might deal with them to put choice back into the hands of the players. I'll start, but feel free to discuss anything presented in this topic. Note that I'm a novice modder and may not even be capable of accomplishing the fixes needed to give the player free choice in these matters. I'll gladly step aside and let a more capable modder do this, but what I'd like to see is a comprehensive fix for the railroading, rather than a lot of smaller mods. I've seen the term "entanglement" being used for the ways many of the quest-lines are tied together, and that's a pretty good term for it. I feel that quests should not be arbitrarily tied together. That's one issue I'd like to discuss. Another is the fact that some of the Words of Power needed to complete dragon shouts are in quest-locked dungeons. Another is that you can overhear a conversation, or be greeted by a guard and have a quest logged into your journal. Another is that you can pick up a book and read it and have the same thing happen. These are examples, not necessarily inclusive, of how Skyrim railroads players into quests. So let us begin. Main Quest: You don't have a choice in an unmodded game. This quest is initiated as soon as you exit the cave from Helgen. Avoiding the Main Quest is already possible. There are various alternate start mods available, and any of them will cut out the Main Quest. With some you'll have to use the console to initiate the Main Quest if you decide to do it at a later time. I'd like to see more choice in this. Perhaps a randomly-chosen starting location would be interesting. The ability to start as a hunter (with the hunting camp randomly chosen) might appeal to many players. The choice to begin the game right outside any of the cities or towns would be good. Main Quest - Civil War: Don't hang around Ralof or Hadvar after you exit Helgen. If you follow either of them to Riverwood they'll mention that you should join the Stormcloaks (Ralof) or Legion (Hadvar). If you meet them later on in Riverwood, even days later, after avoiding them at the beginning, you'll still get that line. It will automatically put in your journal to join their factions, and you can even have the oddity of having both of them in your journal at the same time. I'd prefer to see the offending monologue option completely removed from both of these people. Alternately, a script could intervene and give the player the option to refuse to allow the quest to start or to accept it. Without mods your only option is to flee the instant you exit Helgen and put as much space between you and Ralof/Hadvar as you can. Once you're out of earshot they go on to Riverwood without you and the offending monologue never happens unless you approach them later on. You still can't avoid the main quest. "Dragon Rising" is scripted to be added to your journal a few moments after you exit Helgen whether you hang around to listen to Ralof of Hadvar or not. Civil War: The standard greeting for an Imperial soldier on the road or in an Imperial Camp will force the "Join the Imperial Legion" quest on you. Similarly with Stormcloak soldiers and the "Join the Stormcloak Rebellion" quest. If you speak with a Stormcloak prisoner in an Imperial escort the same thing will happen. I think it happens if you speak with a prisoner of a Thalmor escort, as well. See my possible solutions immediately above. Your options, here, are to avoid these people completely, meaning never get within the distance at which greetings are initiated (150 units in an unmodded game) or to use the console to reduce interaction distance, and to avoid speaking to escorted prisoners. The console command is "SetGameSetting fAIMinGreetingDistance nnn", where "nnn" is a number. Set it to "0" (zero) to prevent any greetings by anyone. This also solves other railroading situations where all you do is get greeted and it forces a journal entry (such as with the Dark Brotherhood). You'll have to do this every time you restart your game. Main Quest - Thieves Guild: You are sent to talk to Brynjolf regarding the location of Esbern. I've never gone to Brynjolf for this after my first playthrough, because I know where Esbern can be found in the Ratway and I know you can get there without joining the Thieves Guild. See "Thieves Guild", below for more. Main Quest - College of Winterhold: You are sent to the College to investigate the location of the Elder Scroll. You will have to join the College before the door is unlocked. It's not necessary, of course. Your contact there will direct you to Septimus Signus, and if you know where he's located you can go right there, instead (see "Discerning the Transmundane", below). Thieves Guild: When you get near the market area in Riften during business hours, Brynjolf will approach you and force you into a conversation. You don't have any choice in this matter and you'll get stuck with a journal entry to listen to his scheme. Follow through with that and you're on your way to becoming a member of the Thieves Guild. My solution to this is to simply disable Brynjolf in the game. The console commands for this are "prid 20545", followed by "disable", or you can just wait until you can get a bead on him, click on him while in console mode and then type disable. You can always re-enable him if you decide that you later want to join the Thieves Guild. Better would be to mod Brynjolf so that the quest to listen to his scheme is never forced into your journal, leaving you with the option to actually ask him about it later, if you're interested. Note that I'm not sure what happens to a disabled Brynjolf should the market area respawn (or even if it does). If the game cleans up and he's deleted this would make it impossible, except through the console, to get him back. Bard's College: You can either go directly to the college in Solitude and speak with Viarmo, who will force you into a conversaton with him as soon as you enter the place, or you can get the quest "Investigate the Bard's College" by speaking with any bard in Skyrim. This is even associated with a bug in which you can get the investigation quest after you've completed the Bard's College quest-line and it's forever stuck in your journal. Solution -- don't go into the college and don't speak with any of the bards about what they do. Better would be a choice to decline having the journal entry in the first place. There are three miscellaneous quests associated with the college. These are to retrieve Finn's Lute, Pantea's Flute, and Rjorn's Drum. If you happen to find any of these before you get those quests do NOT pick them up. Doing so can bug the quests and make them uncompletable, and the items are quest items and cannot be removed from your inventory except by using the console. Neither do you get a clue as to what they are and where you have to take them. The best solution would be for these items to not even spawn in the game until their respective quests are active. College of Winterhold: If you approach the college you will be stopped by Faralda who will demand that you demonstrate a particular (chosen randomly from a list) spell. Doing so will automatically initiate the quest-line. Asking anyone who gives you a dialog option to learn about magic will initiate the "Visit the College of Winterhold" quest, which will also put you into interaction with Faralda. There is an option to tell her that you just want to see what the college looks like. I've never chosen that so I don't know what effect that might have on the "Visit the College of Winterhold" quest, or whether it actually allows you to back out of the subsequent quest "First Lessons". Dark Brotherhood: The only rumor you'll receive from an innkeeper until you've gotten the one about the Aretino boy is the one about the Aretino boy. Another way is by being greeted by gurads, especially those in Windhelm. The third way is by approaching the Aretino residence in Windhelm and overhearing a conversation between a boy and lady. A fourth way is by getting forced into a conversation with Maul, who is standing near the main gate to Riften (the only one you can go through until you've been in the city, already), and then talking to him about the Dark Brotherhood. Or you can go to Honorhall Orphanage in Riften and speak to the orphans. All of these will initate the quest to speak to Aventus Aretino in Windhelm. Doing so will initiate the quest "Innocence Lost" which will require you to murder Grelod the Kind, the headmistress at the orphanage, in cold blood. This will, in turn, initiate the quest "With Friends Like These" which will give you opportunity to join or destroy the Dark Brotherhood. Stones of Barenziah - Thieves Guild: These are the "Unusual Gems you encounter in various places in the game). Picking one of these up initiates a quest to find an appraiser. The only person who can identify them is Vex of the Thieves Guild and she won't talk to you about them until you're a member in good standing with the Guild. The stones are quest items, so you can't drop them. They don't stack in your inventory so you can wind up with 24 of these, each taking up a separate line in your inventory list. Quest-Locked Words of Power: Disarm, located in Snow Veil Sanctum, requires membership in the Thieves Guild. Fire Breath, located in Dustman's Cairn, requires membership in the Companions. Ice Form, located in Saarthal, requires membership in the College of Winterhold. Slow Time, located in Korvanjund and Labyrinthian, requires membership in the College of Winterhold. Storm Call, located in Skuldafn Temple, requires advancing the Main Quest. Call Dragon (all three words) requires advancing the Main Quest. Clear Skies (all three words) requires advancing the Main Quest. Dragonrend (all three words) requires advancing the Main Quest. I don't play Dawnguard, so I can't speak for any Words of Power added by that DLC. The Legend of Red Eagle: You get this quest by reading the book "The Legend of Red Eagle". This is not, in itself, a bad thing, except that the book's script is bugged so that you can get the quest every time you read this book even if you've already completed it. However, the quest is a difficult one at low levels and smart players aren't going to tackle it until they're capable of taking on a pack of Forsworn. Presently the only way to avoid the quest is to refuse to read the book. I don't remember, actually, but I think just picking it up initiates the quest. I could be wrong on that. I just don't bother even picking it up when I see it on a bookshelf. The script needs to be redone so that it (a) doesn't result in an infinitely-repeatable quest and (b) gives the player the option to either refuse the quest or to accept it. You would be able to re-read the book at any later time to get the choice to accept it. Following is all the Daedric quests and the ways I know of that they are initiated. I'm including these as part of the railroading concept because I know that many people actually role-play in this game and don't want to be associated with the Daedra in any way. In some of these instances you don't even know what you're getting into before its too late and you're up to your waist in ... well, you get the picture. The Black Star (Azura): Talking to Aranea Lenith at the Shrine of Azura will automatically start this quest. Solution -- don't talk to her. Boethiah's Calling (Boethia): You will be forced into this quest by reading the book "Boethiah's Proving" or by being forced into conversation by the Priestess of Boethiah when you approach the shrine. The book is available in various places once the player reaches level 30. Sometime after that point the player will be attacked by a Boethiah Cultist. Upon killing him you will get a journal entry to "Investigate the Boethiah Cultist", and the book will be found on him. I suspect this entire quest-line is covertly started as soon as you reach level 30. The solution to this is probably quite simple. The books need to be modded so that the player is given a warning about the nature of the quest they're associated with and then given the option to accept or decline the quest. Without mods, just don't read the books and don't talk to the priestess. A Daedra's Best Friend (Clavicus Vile): Once you reach level 10 approaching Falkreath (either gate) will cause a forced conversation with a guard, there. This will initiate this quest and direct you to speak with Lod. If you somehow get into Falkreath without being approached by a guard to speak with Lod, then he will initiate the quest. Without modding, your options are limited to getting into Falkreath without interacting with the guards (see "Civil War", above) and not speaking with Lod. A better solution would be for the guards to suggest that you speak with Lod, but when you do you can turn down his request to check on the dog he's interested in that has been spotted on the road. I've never done this, so I don't know what that option accomplishes. If it keeps a journal entry open to speak with him, then this is something that needs to be fixed. Discerning the Transmundane (Hermaeus Mora) - Main Quest: The Main Quest stage, "Elder Knowledge" requires you to obtain the Elder Scroll. The only person who knows where it is happens to be Septimus Signus. Speaking to him will initiate this quest, since his need to have a lexicon inscribed is tied to the delivery of the Elder Scroll. For role-play purists who have to avoid interaction with Daedra, this brings the Main Quest to a grinding halt. Speaking with Hermaeus Mora gives you the opportunity (I think) to turn him down, but I've never used that option, myself, so I don't know if has any other effect than the option in which you willingly serve him. I know that similar options for some of the other Daedra do not affect the advancement of their quests in any way. Ill Met By Moonlight (Hircine): This quest is initiated by speaking to Mathies Caerellia in Falkreath. Your journal will direct you to speak to Sinding who is being held prisoner in the barracks. Without mods, your only option is to not speak with Mathies. The Cursed Tribe (Malacath): Speaking to Atub at the Orc stronghold Largashbur will initiate this quest. If you don't want to do this quest, then avoid Largashbur and/or don't speak with Atub. Pieces of the Past (Mehrunes Dagon): Sometime after you reach level 20 (I've heard it depends upon you having retrieved at least one Daedric artifact, but I can't verify this) you will be handed a letter by a courier telling you about a new museum opening up in Dawnstar. Alternately, this quest can be initiated merely by overhearing conversation by someone in Dawnstar regarding the museum. A third way, which I've not verified but I understand is possible, is to get a rumor from the innkeeper in Riften about it. I really hate it when the game makes you accept things you don't want, but I've always done this quest just to get to the nice stuff inside the Shrine to Mehrunes Dagon. You do have the option to turn down Mehrunes Dagon's command to kill Silus Vesuius and not get Mehrunes Razor, so this quest is already structured to allow you to back out honorably. The Whispering Door (Mephala): Sometime after you reach level 20 you will hear a rumor at the Bannered Mare in Whiterun regarding one of his children and you'll be directed to speak with Jarl Balgruuf, thus initiating this quest. I've only done this once, since the artificat you're rewarded with is both bugged and objectionable (to me). I don't even remember if you can back out of the quest, once you've started it. The Break of Dawn (Meridia): After you reach level 12 you may find Meridia's Beacon in any of a number of chests in Skyrim. This will initiate the quest. So will visiting the Shrine to Meridia. If you don't want to do the quest, then do NOT pick up Meridia's Beacon and do NOT approach the Meridia's shrine. The House of Horrors (Molag Bal): There is an Abandoned House in Markarth. A Vigilant of Stendarr standing outside force you into a conversation. If you agree to help him this ititiates the quest. Note that you will have to murder two people in order to complete this quest, and you will be unable to exit the house once you enter it without murdering the Vigilant. In an unmodded game the only thing you can do is to avoid helping the Vigilant. Just talking to him doesn't initiate the quest. This is one of the more problematical quests for someone playing a good character and a mod that avoids the evil acts you're forced to do migt be very difficult to implement because of the way the quest is set up except for one solution. I'd suggest making sure that the door to the house remains unlocked. The instant you exit it, the quest is logged as failed and you're home-free. The Taste of Death (Namira): You'll get a rumor from Kleppr at the Silver-Blood Inn in Markarth that will direct you to speak with Brother Varulus, or you can just speak with him without getting that rumor. Either way, this initiates the quest. Fortunately, you have the option to kill Eola instead of Brother Verulus in Reachcliff Cave. This has an unfortunate side effect, though, since one of the people gathered there is Banning. If you want to purchase Vigilance (the dog) you have to purchase him from Banning. Vigilance is actually a mercenary, which is why you have to puchase him, again, every time you dismiss him and then want as a follwer, again. You'll have to kill Banning and all the other feasters in the cave because they'll go aggro on you the instant you attack Eola. This makes Vigilance unavailable, except by using the console command to resurrect Banning. The best solution, I think, is to rework Vigilance so that he becomes a permanant follower and allow Cedran, Banning's assistant at the stables, to sell him. The Only Cure (Peryite): You can get this quest by interacting with the random wandering "Afflicted" you'll meet along the roads of Skyrim after you reach level 12. You can also get it by speaking directly with Kesh at the Shrine to Peryite. If you don't want to do the quest, then avoid talking to Afflicted and don't approach the shrine. A Night to Remember: You'll meet Sam Guevenne at a random tavern. He'll challenge you to a drinking contest. If you accept his challenge this initiates the quest. I've never turned him down, so I don't know if a log entry gets forced into your journal if you do so. The Mind of Madness (Sheogorath): There's an odd fellow who you'll probably meet the first time in you're in the vicinity of the Bard's College in Solitude. His name is Dervenin and he's ranting to himself. Speak to him and this initiates the quest. Avoid him and you have nothing to worry about. Waking Nightmare (Vaermina): Speak with Erandur in the Windpeak Inn in Dawnstar and this will initiate the quest. You'll hear various comments about nightmares and people not getting sleep throughout the city, but these random snippets don't force the quest upon you. Don't talk to Erandur if you don't want to do this quest. Have I left anything out? Yes, I'm sure I have, but this first post is already too long, so I won't make it any longer. I'm equally sure other people will have their own examples, and that's what this topic is for -- free discussion on the railroading issue and ways to fix things or avoid the problems, altogether.

I can confirm that this happens virtually from day one. In my current play-through I had this happen somewhere around level 5 or so using a flames spell. I agree about ditching kill cams. They were sort of cool at first, but I'm getting more and more frustrated with them, especially when it triggers before I kill my last opponent. It's not supposed to do that, but does quite frequently. While I'm trying to re-orient the surviving enemy (sometimes enemies) have no problem instantly targeting me. This is especially bad with arrow shots, because the point of view is so drastically different from what it was before you fired the arrow. I say this is an experiment that has gone awry and needs to be eliminated from the game. It's nothing but eye-candy, anyway. I'd rather survive a battle rather than get a beautiful slow-mo of my second to last enemy dying horribly and then me getting one-shotted by the one who was left because I couldn't recover control of my game quickly enough.

Well, I was forced to update Skyrim to 1.5x because I installed Call of Duty - MW3, which had to be validated by Steam. I held my breath the next time I played Skyrim, but the basic game, with no mods installed except for the USP, is still pretty solid for me. It's buggy as hell, but was from the beginning and probably will be for many years into the future, but the game runs smoothly enough, with no CTDs or other glitches that sometimes made Oblivion a pain in the behind. Whatever changes they made to the old Gamebryo engine, it's a breath of fresh air, compared to the hourly crashes I was used to dealing with when I was playing Oblivion.

Definitely not unique to your mod, zombiecurse. Like Janus, I get this with spells. I've also gotten it with arrows. Most of the time what happens is that the game seems to think the shot will kill if it hits, but what actually happens is that it misses and the target survives. This usually happens with arrows because the arrow encounters a bounding box bigger than the object looks. I guess the game gets confused about this just like I do. I know it's annoying, but there's probably nothing that can be done about it, since I fear it's a limitation of the game engine, itself.

(Ezrion): From what I understand the initial release of Skyrim was extremely buggy. So was the initial release of Oblivion. I can't compare the two at those points in time because I've never played the original release of either game. I came to Oblivion well after the UOP had been released and it was the only mod I had installed during my first couple of play-throughs. Similarly, the USP was available when I got Skyrim, and was the only mod I used for several play-throughs. I think my version of Skyrim was 1.2.xx at the time. I'm currently at 1.5.xx and holding until the bugs get ironed out of 1.7. My experiences with both games lead me to believe that the new game engine is much more stable and robust than the older one used with Oblivion. Even vanilla, Oblivion would crash to the desktop for no apparent reason every hour or so. That was on a laptop. It was marginally more stable on a real gaming machine. Modded, it could turn into Crash Hell in a hurry. Skyrim, out of the box and with the USP installed, I think I got two crashes in over 250 hours of play. With the later patches installed even this got better. You're running with Dawnguard, right? From what I've understood about the issues with 1.7 and that DLC its a wonder your computer hasn't self-destructed and taken half of your neighborhood with it. At version 1.5 and with over twenty mods installed Skyrim runs smoothly and almost error free for me, except for the occasional AI stalling and the various known bugs that are part of the game, itself.