Kayyyleb

I don't have to address any of these because I already did. I already addressed the hunting. Already addressed the temperate Skyrim holds and their relation to the province's overall food logistics which at their absolute best even out with no surplus (better not have a bad harvest). You aren't bringing up anything new but you are repeatedly bringing up new tangents that really aren't relevant. I even went in-depth on this and you're still just saying "nuh-uh" as a rebuttal which is hardly convincing. We can argue "what if's" all day about how the war will turn out but it doesn't lead anywhere because for every pro-Stormcloak what-if we can easily invent an Empire what-if.

No I did not forget Falkreath. It's right there in the post you quoted which you pretty much ignored anyways so why bother asking for my opinion if you're going to stick your fingers in your ears and say "nuh-uh" as your counter to everything? If you want some ingame book or something then I'll have to turn right around and start asking for ingame fact-checking for every one of your statements and we both know you can't do it either. I'm arguing from a realistic standpoint. The Vikings are a perfect example, thank you. Guess where they got pretty much all their food? Trade. Guess what kind of environment they lived in? Tundra/arctic. Point in case. The Vikings weren't self-sufficient on their own land. Exactly my point. Now let's have the Vikings hold off an invasion for the British Empire and see how well they fare. Trade with the EEC exists in Solitude because it's the Imperial headquarters in Skyrim. Winterhold has 1 employee in an empty warehouse who isn't even getting any business because a rival is trying to oust them from Windhelm when you first talk to him. And that's the extent of EEC in Skyrim represented ingame. Crime is no favorable argument for you because Skyrim is the home of the Thieves Guild itself not to mention there seems to be as many bandits as average citizens anyways. Once you walk outside a city wall there is no law in Skyrim anyways.

The fact that 10 seasonal farms in a frigid environment doesn't feed an entire province year round? I can't believe this needs to be spelled out for you. It's common sense that food is imported from more temperate regions and Cyrodiil is the most obvious source with Hammerfell being largely desert and Morrowind being covered in ash. You haven't done anything to show Skyrim isn't a wasteland according to the Google definition you provided. Markarth is surrounded by a bunch of Forsworn-infested rocks with 1 farm for an entire city. Dawnstar has nothing but ice and snow. Winterhold has nothing but ice and snow. Falkreath has 2 farms and decent hunting which means it could probably be self-sufficient but not with excess. Whiterun has 4-5 farms but also a heavy population so it wouldn't have excess. Windhelm has 3 farms covered in snow all year (no idea how that works). Solitude is a port city with a heavy population and 1 farm so it's blatantly obvious they get their food from sea trade. Riften is the only hold that could likely feed itself and export some food but even they don't really take full advantage of their ability to farm or hunt. So you'd basically have 2 holds that after covering their own needs might be able to export to other holds but still nowhere close to what is needed for the entire province. Now add a few thousand troops to that. Not possible. The only explanation is that Skyrim's mining is used to trade for food from Cyrodiil. The two are as Stormhammer pointed out: symbiotically linked economically. Maybe Skyrim survived on it's own in the past but they just spent a few centuries in an empire and you don't magically develop self-sustainability overnight when you haven't needed it for hundreds of years. It is delusional at best to suggest otherwise. I like to point out in Oblivion there were eleven farms to be found and there are nine farms to be found in Skyrim... That some how feeds two nations? It's not like Bethesda worries about food logistics when making these games. Your entire argument is nearly pointless. Obviously not, but that's what's ingame so that's what I'm going off of. If we want to go with realism instead of counting farms in each game my argument still stands perfectly fine because a temperate environment makes better farming than an arctic or tundra environment hands down no question.

The fact that 10 seasonal farms in a frigid environment doesn't feed an entire province year round? I can't believe this needs to be spelled out for you. It's common sense that food is imported from more temperate regions and Cyrodiil is the most obvious source with Hammerfell being largely desert and Morrowind being covered in ash. You haven't done anything to show Skyrim isn't a wasteland according to the Google definition you provided. Markarth is surrounded by a bunch of Forsworn-infested rocks with 1 farm for an entire city. Dawnstar has nothing but ice and snow. Winterhold has nothing but ice and snow. Falkreath has 2 farms and decent hunting which means it could probably be self-sufficient but not with excess. Whiterun has 4-5 farms but also a heavy population so it wouldn't have excess. Windhelm has 3 farms covered in snow all year (no idea how that works). Solitude is a port city with a heavy population and 1 farm so it's blatantly obvious they get their food from sea trade. Riften is the only hold that could likely feed itself and export some food but even they don't really take full advantage of their ability to farm or hunt. So you'd basically have 2 holds that after covering their own needs might be able to export to other holds but still nowhere close to what is needed for the entire province. Now add a few thousand troops to that. Not possible. The only explanation is that Skyrim's mining is used to trade for food from Cyrodiil. The two are as Stormhammer pointed out: symbiotically linked economically. Maybe Skyrim survived on it's own in the past but they just spent a few centuries in an empire and you don't magically develop self-sustainability overnight when you haven't needed it for hundreds of years. It is delusional at best to suggest otherwise.

Cyrodil and Skyrim form a "symbiotic" realtionship, in that what happens to one will undoubtedly affect the other. Cyrodil has plentious farmland with gently rolling hills, while Skyrim's terrain is more rugged and loaded with minerals. Agreed. Which is another reason why they are better off together than separate.

Also why can torches be carried around as a light but not lanterns?

Skyrim is what...90% bleak, neglected land overrun by bandits, wild animals and much worse? About half of which being covered in snow all year? The vast majority of Skyrim is most definitely a wasteland with the only resource rich areas being the hold capitals with their businesses and farms and a few scattered mines, mills and small villages which all add up to barely a fraction of the overall province. Skyrim and Hammerfell match the definition of wasteland better than anywhere else in Tamriel. You don't feed armies with iron and steel. So what is the advantage of having tons of weapons and armor for a starving army? The few scattered farms and hunters realistically can only provide a merely adequate amount for survival, so forget adding thousands more mouths to feed. Not to mention dragon attacks making it a very unappealing place for troop movements and field garrisoning, something commented on by both sides of the Civil War.

Do those items have a purpose? Yes. They take up precious memory by being rendered. They must be picked up and sold for 0 gold as otherwise they will crash your game. They are evil!!! :P All sarcasm aside, they serve no purpose other than to try to flesh out the little details of life... You should be able to melt those items down and make iron ingots out of them. :biggrin: There is a mod that lets you do that I think. Well for weapons and armor at least. Not sure about misc. items.

Religious oppression means nothing to the Thalmor. It's all a ploy to get Skyrim to rebel. So far it's worked perfectly on you. If you have a cold war on one side and a hot war on the other where would you send your best troops to fight? Of course they sent the best into the actual fight instead of the glaring match. Maybe if Skyrim wasn't stabbing the Empire in the back they could have all their troops on the AD's border, hmm? One noble out of the entire council ordering a hit on the emperor hardly counts as the entire council rebelling. Think about this for a second. Where in Skyrim do you see any evidence whatsover of a military buildup? If the Empire was going to build up, Skyrim would be the logical place - outside of Thalmor eyes and ears - it's where all the resources for a buildup reside. All this talk of buildup, ready to wage war on the Thalmor if only the Stormcloaks wouldn't be ruining things is laughable at best. Empire can't even tell the Thalmor to pound sand - that the Empire will enforce the terms of the treaty. Nowhere did I mention anything about a military buildup. What's the point of building up an army in Skyrim? So you can invade Morrowind? Why bother hiding your army? Both sides are preparing for war and both sides know it so the Empire gains nothing from pretending to hide it. Building up in Skyrim only means if the AD hits Cyrodiil the entire army has to march twice as far to get anywhere useful. Also, what resources? Skyrim is a frozen wasteland and large armies eat lots of food which Skyrim mostly imports from Cyodiil anyways. Nothing in this strategy makes any sense whatsoever.

Religious oppression means nothing to the Thalmor. It's all a ploy to get Skyrim to rebel. So far it's worked perfectly on you. If you have a cold war on one side and a hot war on the other where would you send your best troops to fight? Of course they sent the best into the actual fight instead of the glaring match. Maybe if Skyrim wasn't stabbing the Empire in the back they could have all their troops on the AD's border, hmm? One noble out of the entire council ordering a hit on the emperor hardly counts as the entire council rebelling.

"Right" and "wrong" are irrelevant here. The reality is that the Stormcloaks are being manipulated. it's so obvious I have no idea how they can't see it. The bottom line is the Stormcloaks are doing EXACTLY what the AD wants them to down to the letter. Weaken the Empire and Skyrim at the same time to pave the way for a knockout in round 2 with the Empire. When countries sign treaties with each other you're expected to follow through with the agreement. The Thalmor aren't going to accept a treaty if one side is going to blatantly violate it and not allow the other side to verify that it's being followed. You don't seem to have a clue how diplomacy works.

Cute, but wrong. The Stormcloaks are pushing their beliefs on everyone in Skyrim just the same as the Empire. Half of Skyrim wants to remain with the Empire. Thus why it's a civil war. A ton of the Legionnaires you're killing are Nords. When the war ends, it's still Nords wearing Legion uniforms protecting Skyrim. Your whole attitude regarding Imperial/Nord relations is just bad. You're showing that Stormcloaks are self-centered and short-sighted. It's all about me me me according to them. Screw the Empire, screw the Dunmer, screw anyone who isn't on MY side. That won't get you far no matter who wins between the Empire and Dominion. If the Empire wins, you've alienated and increased hostility with your southern neighbors. If the Dominion wins you're trading one former ally for another enemy. Both are extremely unintelligent choices that weaken rather than strengthen Skyrim in the long term. And for all the whining about the WGC, it's a simple fact that the treaty will be repealed the second the next war starts and will remain so if the Empire wins.

OK, enough pretentious speeches. Instead you can try addressing my point. There's also an edit button, so triple posting is unnecessary.

I'm not sure if you're aware, but we don't care if the Empire dies. In fact, we acknowledge that it will. At least Skyrim and High Rock would be spared from the aftershocks of said collapse. Also, using conventional forces to stamp out resistance fighters didn't work in Vietnam (IRL), or Hammerfell (TES). In fact, with the Empire already dying, they couldn't just send their forces to try and reclaim Skyrim following the revolution, because, well, it would simply add to their instability at home, and the Empire would collapse around its own ears. So I guess the Stormcloak mentality is screw the people in Cyrodiil and leave them to be ground under the Thalmor's heels. How is that any better than the Empire screwing over Hammerfell? Actually, how is that any different whatsoever?

Have you tried using the console to "complete" the quest you're stuck on and see if it continues properly after that?

And here I was all excited thinking someone found a use for clothes irons and embalming tools. :/

And it is strongly suggested that the Imperial Armies in Skyrim are made up with a large number of local recruits (or perhaps conscripts?). Virtually all the Imperial soldiers who replace hold guards are nords.

Shield/sword bashing works extremely well on humanoid enemies. Ancient dragons and above are by far more lethal than any vampire imo.

Ironically on my very first playthrough I immediately turned around and went straight to Solitude and the Legion after listening to that speech. I didn't buy a word of it.

I love how the Stormcloaks will bring up the point that the Empire came back and crushed the AD when they retook the Imperial City so they can bash TMII's politics and brag about how the Nords did all the work (which they didn't) yet somehow are utterly convinced that the Empire will hands down be destroyed by the AD in the next Great War even though this time the Empire won't be taken by surprise and is on the border ready for a fight. You can't have it both ways. Either the Empire despite everything still can contend with the AD or it can't.

Wishful thinking. Hitler was meant to instantly overrun Russia. Epic fail. And Hitler had access to modern technologies, allowing him to utilise modern tactics, and didn't have to cross steep and narrow mountain passes to enter the USSR. One can easily say Hitler was meant to overrun Poland, Czechoslovakia, or France and he most certainly did that. You're cherrypicking the one country that fits your argument.

Riften is best early game. They have 3 "general store" merchants, a blacksmith, a mage and an alchemist all relatively close together.

None, every kind of government opresses its people in some way. The stormlcoaks however take one step further with the class system and genocidal tendencies. Umm, be specific here. Ok, Dark Elves and Argonians come to mind immediately.

I was going to abandon thread until I saw this post. I feel you deserve some credit for defusing a brewing flame war before it got out of hand. I honestly mean that.

So now you're trying outright lies? You're the one who started attacking me, you're the one who started the yelling. You're rather delusional if you think you can get away with that when I only need to click back a couple pages to prove my point. You haven't even attempted to see both sides, you're as biased as you accuse me of being. You're the one who started the personal attacks, don't lie when the evidence is right in front of me. I love how you now mention being a liberal has something to do with this. You really are just making this up as you go aren't you? My real life political views haven't come into play in any way yet you're now going to presuppose my beliefs, my life experiences, hell why don't you use that crystal ball to tell me my age and eye color too while you're making everything up? Not to mention a blanket generalization fallacy by saying ALL liberals act as you describe which is demonstrably false (and conservatives are guilty of all the same problems and don't pretend otherwise). You have a running record of being the instigator and antagonist ever since you started replying to me. I wasn't even replying to you at all when I first started here but you're showing yourself to purely be trolling at this point. Also debates are not won simply because one side stops responding. Yelling loudly doesn't make you right and any delusion that this is the case only further shows you're either a troll or woefully ignorant of how debates operate. And you're displaying a very bothersome inability to separate reality from fiction. Stormcloaks are a fictional faction in a fictional game universe. YOU are not a Stormcloak or a Nord and you don't live in a place called Skyrim. You really need to go outside and live in the real world for a bit. Your behavior is nothing short of shameful for someone who claims to be 31 years old in their profile. Rather, you behave like you're 13.