[Argonian Lore issues explored]

For a single simple Argonian? Na, unless you can provide some link that he was raised in a temple of the Divines or he is some mythic Hero.

[Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts]

The Mede Dynastie is IMO neither old enough nor well liked enough for that to be much of an issue. A puppet is IMO however safer for the mastermind, especially if no one knows he´s the one pulling the strings. On the other hand puppets are dangerous as they always might outgrow your control.

Either way this is hugely speculative, the exact reasons why Motierre wanted Titus Mede dead will probably forever be unknown to us.

 

My predictions is that after TES:Skyrim Titus Mede will be dead, either from old age or an assassination but the cause simply wont be mentioned. His death causes unrest and further destabilizes Cyrodiil, which in turn causes the remaining provinces to become independent.

 

This scenario nicely allows for every questline: Dark Brotherhood and Civil War to end as the player wants it too and avoids any IMO unrealistic developments like the Dominion to suddenly invade Skyrim or the Empire sending even more legions up north and invalidating the Civil War end of the game.

[Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts]

 

stewards would be the caretakers of the 'thrones' in the leader's absence

They probably are technically, but that matters little if the rest of the nobility (thanes) the Jarl´s family or the mass of the citizen is against them or doesn´t respect them. I dont see any regular steward ruling a hold of Skyrim, thanes yes, but not stewards, they simply dont fulfil the "true Nord" criteria, aka they dont wield the necessary respect. We see a further problem with the killing of Torygg, a leader who doesnt command respect is killed off, we dont really know how the Nords chose their jarls if there arent heirs apparent, but IMO we can safely say that if a High King can be usurped by a jarl in a duel, a Jarl can be usurped by a Thane etc.

Just look at Dengeir in Falkreath, according to his dialogue his thanes and steward pretty much dethroned him. Again Whiterun as example: do you really think Nazeem, Battleborns, Greymanes, wouldnt make a grap for the throne if Avenicci (or really any other steward) would sit on the throne because no one else remained?

 

If you are a 1st generation leader, the greatest power you can wield is the respect you receive from people. Doesnt matter how good or intelligent you are (unless you can use it to destroy your political enemies) if you arent respected you will be dethroned quite quickly by the next warlord/politician etc

 

Lotr is IMO a special case as the steward was the only one remaining of the leading circle, everyone else was with the king in Mordor busy getting killed and killing.

 

Wasnt talking of a democracy in Tamriel, the very thought is absurd actually in some regions like Blackmarsh were semi divine beings rule, and the existence of army soloing warlords/mages also is a bad factor for such a system as it simply makes people unequal, the broad mass doesnt wield the ultimate power anymore.

 

Mede s assassination could IMO lead to many diverse and interesting outcomes:

1. what Motierre told you holds true and the Empire somehow pulls together and changes its policies, a fresh wind if you will - IMO unlikely, the Elder Council doesnt change (apart from Emperor + Motierre potentially) and the people would probably see it as a further sign of the decline of the Empire and then we dont even know how it would affect the foreign and not so foreign powers. On the other hand Titus Mede seemed quite unconcerned... he may very well have an ace up his sleeve, or he is simply too tired to care the same as he was too tired to wage another war against the Dominion.

2. another warlord/general quickly takes the reigns and makes the whole Empire more militaristic, could lead to 1.

3. Titus has a clear heir, who takes the throne peacefully and it leads back to 1.

4. High Rock, Morrowind use the opportunity and dont swear fealty to the new Emperor, hardly a better time for them to go without having to fight for it.

5. the Thalmor take over via a puppet or directly (lots of potential how this could happen)

6. the factions in the Empire (Elder Council, Military etc) break into a smouldering conflict, Id wager the Thalmor would finally ignite it and there´s then open civil war in Cyrodiil (this is my favourite as it would easily explain how the end of the civil war in Skyrim becomes meaningless: either way if the player decided to be pro Empire or Stormcloak, in the above situation any High King or Military leader, would try to save what he can save and bunker down beyond the mountains, leading to effectively being independent of the Cyrodiil as it is nothing but a raging battleground - this could lead to another ESO scenario where everyone fights over Cyrodiil)

[Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts]

Stewards are little more than counsilors though, they only have authority because the Jarls grant them such. Also do you think the citizen of Whiterun would respect Avenicci enough to let him rule them??

 

The Thanes would be more of a leader figure, fact is they pretty much are the nobility of a hold. However lets say there are more than 1 thane per hold, and even if every hold quickly settles under the power of a thane, those then still would need to decide on a high king from among their ranks. Lots of potential for squabbles.

 

Also that´s not really what I meant, though I admit my opinion was badly worded, lets say SKyrim suddenly wants to become a democracy and the commoners kill off all the officials: king, jarls, thanes and their family. This is a true revolution from down to top. What I meant previously as "there is no fixed governmental system". The people who are partly badly educated and come from many different backgrounds, millieus and micro cultures suddenly need to come together and decide together without the use of violence on matters that affect them all and often priviliges one part and may doom another. And then there are those natural leader figures, large land or business owners, military leaders who did the coup in the first place etc. - its a recipe for disaster.

 

That happened in the Arabian Spring - it didn´t happen in Skyrim, why I believe we cannot throw revolutions into a single pot. In the first place revolution is a wrong term for the civil war in Skyrim, it was a movement for independence from a part of the people not a revolution.

[Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts]

Not necessarily no leader for common-people revolutions, The people may already have someone else to support as the nation's leader, I think, expressed or not; at least here in my nation.

I meant it as in "there is no fixed governmental system". For example Skyrim as we are all so familiar with it, nothing much changes, there´s still a high king, and the Jarls beneath him. No need to form parties, stage elections etc.

 

Now on the other hand think the chaos that would ensue if all the jarls and any potential jarls would be killed. Anarchy would follow as minor warlords would suddenly fight for power, bandits would roam, all of it would take far longer - interregnum etc.

[Argonian Lore issues explored]

The Hist are special in so far that they can bestow souls on Argonians, not only on the Saxheel we see ingame, and even change their biological makeup with their sap. I highly doubt you could substitute the influence of the Hist on Argonian hatchlings with some other race.

 

So how did Ja-Reet survive? Perhaps similar to the player or Serana who heal themselves of vampirism with a soulgem?? Let´s say the Hist dont influence his consciousness but only his soul stuff, in that case it could be possible to substitute the involvement of the Hist with a black soul gem.

Note that it also was possible in some game to cure vampirism with hist sap, I believe, so the method of healing vampirism can be achieved through these two methods: soul gem or hist sap. Coincidence?

[Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts]

It strikes me as extremely bizarre that we can trace Nedic presence in numerous parts of Tamriel, including Easten Skyrim to before Harald, but the lack of written accounts of their presence in Western Skyrim is sufficient to discount their presence. I can see the interpretation based on the written accounts, but the Anthropologist in me screams that population distribution doesn't work that way.

I agree from an RL standpoint, and Lamae´s account actually I think played on the coast of eastern Skyrim before the Nords arrived there. then there are the Nedes in Morrowind you already mentioned. But just think of who else lived in Skyrim - Falmer and Orsimer, there´s a good chance those two killed off any native Nedic population or enslaved them.

 

That said, i cannot disagree that the evidence can support that conclusion.

Thank you, that´s everything I was going for, I fully agree that we cannot be sure and that there is no definitive evidence for my theory, but the Forsworn claim cannot be proven either and shouldnt be taken at face value as it has a lot of holes in it.

 

CW Topic

do reflect what happened following the Markarth Incident

Is there any source at all claiming so beside his the book Bear of Markarth?

I've never claimed otherwise. The problem stems from his use of the Voice, and the means by which he learned it. Ulfric's position is one of Nordic Tradition, yet he picks and chooses which traditions he whats to uphold, so long as they serve him.

Wasnt necessarily directed at you, its just that I heard several times that we know nothing about any such duels for kingship. Reading this text was also the first time I heard of it happening in another instance. The thuum is just another such point where I think everyone has to make up his own mind, we simply have not enough info to argue on bases for either side: thuum use might be seen as bad outside the way of the voice, but no one argued that Wulfharth was using the voice heretically. then there´s the matter of oaths - did Ulfric ever swear to follow the way or was it simply expected of him while staying with the greybeards? I simply believe that there isn´t enough info about the topic to make an informent argument so its up to personal interpretation.

Admittedly, i've become acutely aware over the last 2 years that i am acutely Orwellian when it comes to the notion of rebellion and revolution. It has almost never, in history, brought about change for the better. Which does, i will freely admit, make me inherently biased against the Stormcloaks.

Well I guess the Arabian Spring disillusioned many of us, ... me as well.

But the French Revolution for one, might no have led to anything better, but the circumstances were apparently pretty much unteneable for the people.

 

However I feel that we need to differentiate between revolutions of the common people against the crown and separationist movements. The major problem I see with the first is that there is no functioning government to effectively lead the country afterwards, in the second scenario there might be such a regulating force.

That the US separated from the Commonwealth might not have been good for the native Americans and it can be argued that they did many bad things to themselves and the rest of he world, however WW2 might have ended totally differently if not for them and for the Americans themselves it might not have been that bad after gaining independence.

[Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts]

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-michael-kirkbride

Out of Atmora (07/10/08):

And for the last time (uh huh), Nedes != Atmorans. That's just shoddy scholarship from a bygone regime.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/kurt-kuhlmann-posts

Kurt Kuhlmann has both a regular account, Maturin, and an in-character roleplay account, Hasphat Antabolis. I've labeled the in-character snippets with (HA) for clarity.

On the origin of Nedes

The usual Imperial arrogance. The hoary old "Out of Atmora" theory has been widely discredited (no reputable archaeologist would publicly support it these days), but the Imperial Geographers continue to beat the drum of the Nordic Fatherland in the best tradition of the Septim Empire. They seem to think that the imprimature of officialdom gives their outdated scholarship added weight -- which, unfortunately, it appears to in the eyes of the ever-gullible public which continues to snap up the latest Pocket Guides along with the rest of their Imperial Certified pablum. (HA)

-So it was both of them, decisive enough?

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Skyrim

In the 113th year of the First Era, the entirety of modern Skyrim was under the reign of King Harald, and still, it continued to expand. Leaving their snowy valleys and mountains, the Nords attacked the Dwemer of neighboring Resdayn, the Altmer and Bretons of High Rock and lent aid to the rising slave rebellion in Cyrodiil, which was to end the Ayleid rule of the south.

-"all of modern Skyrim", would include the Reach and there is no mention of them attacking the Dwemer or Altmer and Bretons/Nedes inside Skyrim or rather anywhere but where those should be if Skyrim under Harald included the Reach!

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Frontier,_Conquest

New archeological excavations date the earliest human settlements in Hammerfell, High Rock, and Cyrodiil at ME800-1000,

- no mention of ancient Nedic settlements in Skyrim!

In High Rock, Hammerfell, Cyrodiil, and possibly Morrowind, they did just that, and the Nedic peoples flourished and expanded over the last centuries of the Merethic Era. Only in Skyrim did this accommodation break down, an event recorded in the Song of Return.

- again, no mention of ancient Nedic settlements in Skyrim!

When the Nord armies of the First Empire finally entered High Rock and Cyrodiil, they found Bretons and proto-Cyrodiils already living there among the Elves. Indeed, the Nords found it difficult to distinguish between Elf and Breton, the two races had already intermingled to such a degree.

 

- no mention of Nedic tribes in Skyrim, and they were surprised about the Nedes in High Rock and Cyrodiil.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/High_Rock

There is evidence that early beast men of one variety or another may have been the original inhabitants of High Rock, but the Aldmer coming from Summerset Isle were the first to settle and form permanent communities. The early Nedic people who arrived next were stumbling upon a highly sophisticated culture, and were quickly overwhelmed and absorbed. One of the earliest tales of Khosey describes a Nord raiding party attacking a group of what they presumed to be Aldmer, but who were, on closer inspection, a mongrel race between elf and human, the remnants of the earlier lost Nedic tribe. They were somewhat awkwardly called "Manmeri," but we know them today as Bretons.

-proof that the Aldmer ruled over the ancestors of the Bretons and Reachmen

-proof that at the time of the Skyrim Conquest and Empire the Aldmer still ruled over the Nedes there

-proof that the Nords encountered Nedic tribes when attacking Aldmer holdings, thus they wouldn´t have met any Nedes in Skyrim as there were no Aldmer there

For most of the First Era, the elves kept their hold on the land, with the Nords founding fortified towns along the coasts to support their pillaging parties, such as Daggerfall, which as a kingdom would have a profound influence on High Rock in years to come.

-would you tell me how the Nords would dance around the Reach to built Daggerfall?

Taking advantage of the internal strife in Skyrim, the Hegemony began taking land north and south of High Rock, claiming portions of Skyrim and present day Hammerfell.

-"claiming portions of Skyrim", the Reach??

... many other Nordic cities became Breton not by any act of war, but simply by being assimilated by them.

-and once the Direnni were defeated the Bretons moved into the vaccuum, in High Rock, and IMO in the Reach.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/High_Rock

Khosey, in his 'Tamrilean Tractates,' transcribes a firsthand account of the "discovery" of the Bretons by a Nordic hunting party. The Bretons, in ten generations of Elven intermingling and slavery, had become scarcely recognizable as humans. Indeed, the hunting party attacked them thinking they were some new strain of Aldmeri, halting their slaughter only when one of the oldest began to wail for his life, a shrieking plea that was spoken in broken Nordic. When word of this reached Windhelm, the Nords reasoned that the "Manmeri" beyond the Reach were, in fact, descended from human slaves taken during the Elven destruction of Saarthal.

-no mention of humans in the Reach, even though the Reach is named

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Reachmen

Following the collapse of the First Empire of the Nords, the Western Reach was retaken by the Aldmeri, who slaughtered the majority of Nord colonists; as a result, the Nordic ancestry of the Reachmen is comparatively weak.

- their common ancestry to Nords was weak because the Reachmen came into the Reach at a time where the Nords didnt rule it because of the Direnni?

-note that the uesp page says that the Direnni killed by Aldmer who killed the Nords IN THE REACH.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Orcs_of_Skyrim

...there is mention in the histories of the Companions uprooting Orc strongholds even as they burned the Snow Elves from the land.

-still no mention of Reachmen

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Harald

During his reign, which started in 1E 143, the Elves were finally driven from the present boundaries of Skyrim (at least, driven from most of the inhabited surface, as Dwemer and Falmer remained underground).

- Dwemer underground, no mention of Reachmen, and present boundaries clearly includes the Reach

 

 

CW Topic:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Crown_of_Freydis

The crown rejected Asurn. It literally refused to be placed upon his head. In a rage, Asurn summoned his loyal followers and threatened to kill every member of the Moot if they didn't name him as the rightful king. He refused to be rejected by a crown. A soft-spoken member of the council rose from his chair. He challenged Asurn to combat, according to the law. The battle was short and to the point: Asurn was struck down. When the soft-spoken man took the crown and placed it easily upon his own head, a new High King of Skyrim was born. That was how Kjoric the White rose to power.

- so we actually have a semi precedent for Ulfric´s challenge of Torygg

[Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts]

I disagree, but i don't think we're ever going to see eye to eye on the subject.

Out of curiosity, what exactly do you disagree with? With me doubting the book of Arrianus? My interpretation of Braig´s dialogue? ...

Before the founding of the Alessian Empire.

Cannot be proven! How do you explain the vast amount of ancient Nordic ruins in the Reach, Falkreath etc Gauldur´s tower stands smack dab in the middle of the Reach. What of Rangvald? Two examples of important Nordic locations in the Reach, both long before Hestra´s time. You cannot argue that the ancient Nords had no presence in the region. They did not rule all of it, certainly the Dwemer existed there, never doubted that, but there are no accounts of Reachmen from that time.

 

Lachdonin

That was actually a statement from Kurk Kuhlmann, delivered in-universe through a scholar that is notorious for being unreliable. Fal Droon even goes so far so to deny the existence of Dragon Breaks.

Me

... MK or another dev ...

 

And it was under the guise of Hasphat Antabolis and not Fal Droon, and all other indications point to it as well. The culture alone is vastly different. And the Kothringi? I mean living in the Blackmarsh would probably change anyone with the Hist around, but they were vastly different.

 

We know that Dwemer presence in Skyrim persisted well into the 4th and 5th centuries of the 1st Era, and likely right up to their disappearance. Nordic 'victories' against them were mostly under King Gellir, who held the Title of High King and thus had to come after Harald (though his actual reign is unknown). The Dwemeri presence in the Reach thus indicates that the Nords did not have total claim over the region during the period.

Never doubted that, nor argued against it. I used the Dwemer as an example that the Nords fought in that region and even against the Dwemer. Yet there are no mentions of the Reachman? Why? To inimportant? Not existing? Do you srsly want to tell me that the Nords would conquer the Dwemer but not mind the Reachman?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Aetherium_Wars

In the span of three short years, the great dwarven cities of Skyrim, from Markarth to the Velothi Mountains, fell before the armies of the High King.

Cities that had held fast against the Nords for over a hundred years crumbled abruptly and without warning.

If the Nords managed to dislodge the Dwemer from their strongholds they would have fought against the Reachmen as well, if there were any. Yet no mention of them.

Similarly, we're told that Hestra was the one to first pacify the Reachmen, which wouldn't occur until centuries AFTER this.

Exactly my point! She was the first to pacify them, because before the Direnni came into Skyrim following the Nord Empire´s collapse there were no Reachmen to be found in the Reach!

The Emperor's Guide also indicates that it was Reman who divided the Reach between the states of High Rock and Skyrim in order to divide the local Chieftans.

I admit that I forgot about Reman. But what does it matter if the Reach came to Skyrim with Tiber or Reman?

So the Reach being part of Skyrim, historically, is dubious.

We know that the ancient Nords had an Empire stretching across Skyrim, High Rock and Morrowind, all the way down to Cyrodiil. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:First_Empire_of_the_Nords

The Western Reach in High Rock was retaken by the Aldmer.

Unless you say UESP lies too: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/High_Rock , the Nords lost the western Reach to the Direnni until the fall of the Direnny hegemony. A perfect time for the Reachmen to be left behind the Reach.

As is their surprise at discovering mannish races elsewhere during their initial conquests, since we know there were already enslaved tribes in Cyrodiil, and the Nedes had almost wiped our the Chimer PRIOR to their collapse into the Tribes which were present during the First Nordic Empire.

We have no mention of them meeting any other human race, please tell me where you take your belief from. You will have noticed you didn´t mention any tribes appearing in Skyrim - where the Falmer dwelled, at the time of the 1st Nordic Empire there where no real communities of men in Morrowind either. What does it matter if there where Nedes outside of Skyrim? If the Nords came to High Rock first they´d be surprised at the Bretons, otherwise at the ancient Cyrodiilians. My whole point is that there weren´t any Nedes in Skyrim!

So we know, for a fact, that other mannish populations existed before Harald unified Skyrim, and that these populations were widespread well before the First Nordic Empire.

But none of those you mentioned were in Skyrim, I dont even doubt that there were Nedes in Skyrim, the tale of Lamae Beolfag clearly shows there were some. But they don´t claim to be Reachmen, on the contrary they lived on the coast and thus clearly weren´t reachmen and the names of their tribes werent like anything the Reachmen have. Furthermore we dont know when Lamae lived and it could very well be that when the Nords arrived those tribes had been killed off by the Falmer.

In fact, considering the bequeathing of the Eastern Reach to Skyrim seems to have happened under Reman Cyrodiil's reign, it's likely that the earliest conquests of High Rock under the First Nordic Empire would have been campaigns against the ancestors of Reachmen, as well as against the Dwemer who had a foothold in those same mountains.

Sadly we know for a fact from the High Rock uesp link above that the Direnni ruled High Rock even before Nedes arrived there. And that the Nords thought the Bretons to be Aldmer at first. So yes, the Nords fought the ancestors of the Reachmen/BRetons, while those were Direnni slaves - my point!

 

I say, there is NO indication whatsoever that there existed Reachmen (unless in the form of elven slaves) in the eastern Reach at the time of the Nordic Empire. I know I cannot prove that there werent any, the Devil´s Proof is kinda hard, (especially as the devs can retcon it). But please tell me where you get your conviction from that there were any? Your argument is baseless, without any supportive points beside there being nothing that explicitily states the contrary and the claims of the Reachmen themselves.

 

SOME Ayleid worshipped Meridia. Some worshipped Molag Bal. Many others (possibly the majority, given the nature of the Imperial Palace and the 10 Ancestors, as well as the Cult of the Divines) worshipped the Aedra.

 

The Ayleid were not a unified people, they were a collection of city states, each with their own religious preferences, armies and Kings. Some of these states went so far as to side with the Alessians against their own kin-folk.

I know I spoke too much in general, I never meant to say that they worshipped only Meridia. Still, Umaril? You cannot argue that Meridia had a stake in Ayleid culture. The Feathered Elves, feathers, light from the stars etc.

[Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts]

Ironically the Ayleid, who worshipped Meridia, were huge fans of necromancy and lichdom.

[Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts]

 

If I remember correctly, the Draugrs were cursed by the Dragons with undeath for treachery. I may have to look this up. :3

 

What of Olaf One Eye, Borgas and others who lived after the dragon war? What of the loyal dragonpriests? Why would those be cursed with undeath? On the other hand if you enter Ysgramor´s or yngol´s tombs, you find ghosts instead of draugr. Why would people who are cursed with undeath need mumification tools found in most barrows? etc

 

Look no further than Bleakfalls Barrow, that guy guarded the dragonstone, and thus clearly was a follower of the dragoncult just like the priests. And yet they were all cursed with undeath?

 

Did the dragons really curse the collective Nord race with undeath for the treachery of some?

In Bloodmoon/Morrowind you have red eyed draugr who the Skaal say are cursed too, but not because of the dragons but because of them eating manflesh.

 

Two different curses? Would the dragon curse not also affect the dead Nords in Solstheim?

 

Hevnoraak for example sought a way to return to life - the priest with the blood tanks, so how does the curse rumour fit with that? And do you know of the book "Among the draugr"? How does the "life transfer" described within fit together with a cursed forced on them?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Amongst_the_Draugr

 

IMO the Nords practiced wide spread necromancy and the draugr a type of semi liches. In modern Tamrielic necromancy liches need to torture their victims to achieve lichdom, only a totured soul works for them. And yet we see no torture devices in the nordic ruins! So IMO the ancient Nords found another way, less direct and it takes longer but it replaces the massive need of totured souls for lichdom with a long term pyramid system where the lower level draugr feed their barrow lord with life until his ascencion to new life.

[Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts]

Coming back to the original topic of this thread...

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Flight_from_the_Thalmor

Important bits are in red.

 

Flight from the Thalmor

by Hadrik Oaken-Heart

A written epitaph of a Nordic skald.

Dearest reader: The work you are about to experience has been copied and duplicated, so that the story it relates can be spread throughout the Empire. But make no mistake - this is not a work of fiction. The events chronicled in this account are all true, were originally documented in a private journal (which now remains safely guarded in the House of Quills in Hammerfell) and occurred not more than a year before this book was printed.

- Ashad Ibn Khaled, High Scribe, House of Quills, Hammerfell

http://www.uesp.net/w/images/thumb/4/48/I_letter.png/30px-I_letter.pngt's been nine days. Nine days since I slipped my bonds. Nine days since I strangled my captor with my own chains. And nine days since I rushed headlong into the night, always listening, but never looking back.

But in order to understand my current predicament, one must first understand where I came from, and just where this story began.

My name is Hadrik Oaken-Heart, and I am a proud Nord of Skyrim. I am a skald by trade, and received my formal training at the Bards College in Solitude. For years, I made my occupation as a traveling musician and minstrel, and even served several stints as war-bard in service to the armies of the various Jarls.

And it's fairly safe to say that if I weren't a bard, I never would have gotten into this mess to begin with.

My troubles began when I first started singing about Talos, the Ninth and greatest Divine, beloved of the people of Skyrim. Turns out, he's not so beloved by the Thalmor.

Ah yes, the Thalmor. As common as a head cold in Skyrim these days, and just as annoying. Or so I thought at the time, before their true power and inlfuence [sic] made itself known.

For those not in the know, the Thalmor are Skyrim's recently honored "guests" - high elves of the Aldmeri Dominion who were gracious enough not to wipe us all out during the Great War.

But, as every Nord of Skyrim knows, Thalmor graciousness comes at a terrible price. One of the stipulations of the White-Gold Concordat - the peace treaty between our peoples - was the abolishment of Talos worship. A man ascend to godhood? Preposterous, claim the Thalmor. And so, the open worship of Talos has been outlawed in Skyrim, and actively enforced in those cities where the Thalmor have a tangible presence. Cities, I might add, in which the Empire has the most secure foothold.

It was in one of these cities - Markarth, to be exact - where I made the conscious decision to defy the ban on Talos worship. And my defiance came in the form of - what else? - a song. For what bard who has spent time writing and rehearsing an original work can possible refrain from performing it? So perform it I did. Not once, not twice, but seven times. Once a day, for an entire week.

Now here's something most of my kinsman are unaware of: not all Thalmor in Skyrim are equal in station, or purpose. In fact, there is one group in particular that operates secretly, in the shadows - watching and waiting for those Nords who break the law, and continue their worship of almighty Talos. These are the Justiciars, and it is their job to enforce this, the most terrible of conditions of the White-Gold Concordat.

And so, I would have performed my song for an eighth time had I been given the opportunity. Sadly, I was not. For the Justiciars had been watching, had been waiting. Instead, I received a black sack over my head in the wee hours of the morning, a dreadfully uncomfortable wagon ride, and sinister promises that I would enjoy my "new home," which I came to realize was some sort of secret Thalmor prison or detention camp. One I was certain I would never leave alive.

It was at that moment I realized I needed to make my escape. No matter what - even if I died in the attempt - I had to slip the grasp of my captors. Better that than rot in some godsforsaken Thalmor jail until the end of time.

I finally got my chance when the wagon stopped, and we made camp for the night. One of my two Thalmor guards set off into the forest to hunt, leaving me alone with the other. And so, my account comes full circle.

It is now nine days later, and in that time, I have realized the true extent of my foolishness. I couldn't have sung the song just once? Or maybe twice? Or not at all? I couldn't have swallowed my stubborn Nord pride and realized just how much power and influence the Thalmor truly have over the Jarls?

No. I could not. So now I run. Like a hare from the hound, I run. Always moving, rarely resting, never sleeping. But the Thalmor dog my every move. Where will I go? How will I escape their grasp? I honestly don't know. The only thing I now understand for certain is this: if the agents of the Aldmeri Dominion cannot have your soul, then they will take your very life.

My name is Hadrik Oaken-Heart, and I am a proud Nord of Skyrim. Remember me. For soon I will be dead.

 

The book turns up in 1E201 in Dengeir´s house and other places. We learn right at the top that it was found and written one year before print. Let´s say that it spread very quickly, in under a year from Hammerfell to Skyrim. This makes it still happen some time before Ulfric killed Torygg. As that happened in 201 too.

Also note that the original author did not mention the Stormcloak rebellion, and he spoke of all the Jarls, so an open rebellion at the time of its writing can be safely dismissed.

 

So ... Thalmor Justiciars were in Skyrim already before the outbreak of Ulfric´s rebellion. Debunking the argument that Ulfric´s rebellion called the Thalmor into Skyrim. It might have been the Markarth Incident, but not the Stormcloak rebellion.

 

As to why I believe this book to be absolutely correct while I mistrust others? I dont think the Redguards are dumb enough to believe the Nords wouldnt notice the contradiction of the book against their own memories to when the Thalmor arrived in Skyrim.

 

All in agreement?

[Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts]

 

if the cadavers are obtained legally, I don't see a problem with it.

And the soul?? Not every corpse is reanimated with a lesser daedric spirit, many necromancy spells use the souls of the deceased, torturing them and difiling them.

Morrowind has a similar approach to what you defend, those certified by the temple of the Tribunal were allowed to use necromancy in limited ways, with legaly aquired corpses and so on, then there were also the necromantic creations used to guard the family tombs: according to "Revenants need to be exterminated" or similar, its a Dunmeri text saying that while Vampires and rogue necromancers need to be killed those ancestor spirits that are bound to the family protection because of duty and "love" arent unholy. (and I kind of agree with that, if the spirits of the dead came back by themselves or with help, who are we to say its bad/evil)

 

And to roughly quote Vanus Galerion(founder of the mages guild) - not every necromancer commits heinous crimes, but the possibility is there and its a damn fin line between what can be argued is morally correct and should be lawfull and that which isnt. Nor is it possible to dabble in necromancy, as even the smallest spells corrupt the soul and need the shedding of blood.

 

Your argument is like Mannimarco´s: those stupid un-intellectual do not realise what could be achieved with necromancy - but achieved for who?

 

In ESO there is an altmer Lich by the name of Vastaria?: she tried to act like Ichabod, she invented a necromantic spell that allowed casters to catch the soul of a departed before he ascended to Aetherius or whatever other afterlife, the soul could then be questioned - for solving crimes for example and finally safely realesed to the afterlife. Galerion even came to her presentation of the newly manufactered spell, but he still admonished it and called it dangerous. Even the author of the book(one of Vastaria´s students) called the potential of misuse "enormous".

 

Just think of what could be achieved with necromancy! What power we could gain!

Great undead legions - we would never need to lose our loved ones in war anymore if we just all use dead bodies in battle

no fear of death anymore - Lichdom, at the price of needing to torture countless innocent or not so innocent souls in the process, Lichdom the ultimate goal of every necromancer: did you know that the few books we have on the subject say that a Lich needs to torture the souls he uses to achieve it? The greater the pain he causes the greater his power in unlife.

summoning + catching souls for the benefit of all - isnt it beautiful, to be able to say your loved ones good by a last time? What however if the guy who summons you needs you for enchanting and you then end up in the soul cairn? Still good?

 

TES Necromancy isnt the cute reanimation of corpses with electrical signals that simulate life, its the eternal or at least occasional enslavement of dead souls! As a living being you may argue necromancy isnt a crime but once you are dead and called back to earth to tear apart your own family on behest of you summoner you as sure as hell will consider it a crime. Furthermore no spirit would just serve the summoner willingly, each dead soul needs to be made willing by torture.

 

Grave robbing, murder, those arent the crimes for which necromancy is considered unethical, its the defilement of the soul and the potential for abuse this art gives its wielder. Because in TES the soul, or its parts if you want to be technical, are a thing.

 

So yes, there are necromancy spells which are positive and I personally don´t consider ever application of necromancy as bad, for example the draugr of Skyrim; if those Nords were mumified willingly and serve the various barrow lords willingly in undeath who am I to judge that. However the way most TES necromancer handle their power, yes its evil. Legally obtained corpses? Nah, that girl over there is so good locking she´ll gonna make a good servant in undeath, Im gonna preserve her beauty for all eternity. - or: I need more, more you hear me! That asshats forces are overrunning my own, quickly go into town and cull some. etc

 

Please tell the warmaidens of Yngvild barrow that necromancy isnt a crime. Or the various slaves who were used in necromancy spells by the Dunmer and Sload. Its a huge power and thus theres a huge potential for abuse, and humans, ... or mer and beastfolk, just arent trustworthy enough not to misuse it.

 

And then there´s the whole issue with Molag Bal...

[Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts]

 

A commander does not have to issue the order to be responsible for War Crimes committed by his forces. Knowledge of the action, and a failure to act in its prevention (successful or not) is sufficient to be found guilty.

Men have been executed for War Crimes with a less direct association to the act. And under current law, Ulfric WOULD be found guilty of War Crimes. That is, of course, assuming the standards for a War Crime in the real world apply. Tamriel's seen some really heavy s*** and no one's been taken to task for it before (hell, Tiber became a god for unleashing a literal crime against nature on the Altmer, and the Nords exterminated most of an entire race) so it's unclear what actually constitutes a War Crime.

A commander has to issue the order or knowingly ignore the crimes, otherwise we would have lots of state heads who are supreme commanders accused of war crimes. I agree that the immediate commander of the soldiers committing the crime should have to prevent it, but that´s RL topics which IMO have no place in a semi medieval Skyrim.

 

In medieval times and before the sack of a city is a gently term for large scale pillaging, rape and torching. Does anyone accuse Alexander the Great of war crimes because he burned down Persepolis??

 

IMO in Tamriel the term "war crimes" is little more than propaganda. There are mentions of them ESO and several history books. Interestingly when Uriel slaughters scores of the Quey no one is screaming war crimes. I at least never of a charter that limits war fare in TES, otherwise I would think the use of necromancy is considered a war crime too.

 

Anyway, that argument won´t lead us anywhere as there is no information on it. Thus claiming that Ulfric would be would be found guilty of war crimes is premature and without basis.

 

That same force, whether under Ulfric's order, Ingmund's or their own volition, engaged in activities which are described as War Crimes. Specificity, the violence against a civilian population.

Our only source that war crimes happened with Ulfric present at all is Arrianus. His account is doubtful as posted above and he is a clear Forsworn sympathizer and casts the Legion in a very good light.

 

Furthermore it is contradicted in other matters such as the Talos clause of Markarth, he claims Ulfric pressured the Legion officials into granting him the right to worship from atop Markarth´s walls, whereas everyone else, including Igmund, claim that the militia´s service was bought with the right to worship Talos before the battle. If you believe Arrianus however the Legion "had no choice because the bodycount in the city kept rising".

 

Bothela, the owner of the alchemy shop in Markarth, is judging by her face paint and dialogue a Reachwoman, she is old enough to have lived during the sack and she doesnt mention any war crimes or anything else. Even though her nephew is in prison because of him being a forsworn! If most or anyone who was in the city was killed, Id have expected anyone to talk of it - no one does, not even Reachmen or Forsworn and Bothela who, if she lived in markarth at that time, would have lived through it is alive!

 

- since when does the Legion care for the body count? "He isn´t on the list? Off with his head!" or Quey massacre and "misunderstandings" happen in Helgen too.

 

Igmund even claims that he gave the Reachmen the chance to lay down their weapons, another thing that Arrianus doesnt mention. IMO there isn´t any reason for Igmund to lie as no one would expect him to do actually give them that chance, he had no reason to nor was he obligated to do so.

All these points cast a shadow of doubt on the book Bear of Markarth, and with that it is doubtful any war crimes or rather excessive force against civilians happened at all.

 

Ulfric's presence at the time the Thalmor objected to the failure to enforce the Talos Ban indicates that Ulfric was still present in the area.

There is no indication, from ANY source, that he objected, opposed or otherwise tried to prevent the force he had assembled from committing the actions accused of them.

Yes to the first point, but srsly what kind of power would he have had to stop it if Igmund orders his own soldiers to do so?

The second point: perhaps he was in prison himself already? Or no war crimes happened at all. And there couldn´t be any indication that he objected to the war crimes as no other source mentions war crimes in the sack of Markarth, the only guy who also talks of the sack itself - carriage driver posted above, only speaks of Ulfric´s thuum.

 

For one, he never indicates a place of residence. We know Ingmund had pressured Reachmen throughout the region, not just in the city, following the Rebellion.

To lazy to look it up right now but I believe never to have claimed he was involved in the sack of Markarth. If I did sorry, didnt meant to.

 

... his time-table does not line up with any other source casts doubt on his memory.

His time table matches up wonderfully if you wouldn´t assume that he was in Markarth during the sack, no one claims that. On the contrary, Madanach says Braig is the longest inmate after himself! Thus Braig wouldn´t have been there since the sack but only imprisoned later on. And then his time table of his daughter being born 2 years post sack suddenly makes perfect sense. After all his daughter wouldn´t have been able to speak "dont take away my father take me instead" if she was just born. Cidnah Mine has contact to the outside, so they would have been able to keep track of time. If Braig can say his daughter would be 23 years this year in 201 and the sack of Markarth happened 25 prior, then Occam´s Razor, as problematic he is in TES, says that neither Braig nor his daughter were in Markarth during the sack. On the contrary if they were in Markarth during the sack and he survived and his daughter was killed on Igmund´s orders only because of her plea, than that is an indication that there were no war crimes done during the sack! as otherwise the two would be dead when Igmund is let into the city later on by Ulfric.

 

Please dont misunderstand me, I didnt put forth Braig as example that Igmund committed the war crimes in Markarth but that Igmund is willing to commit crimes against humanity as we would understand them, whereas we only have a vague mention of some massacre in Karthwasten claiming that Ulfric is willing to do them. I would like to point out that Karthwasten is the village you push the Silver Blood mercenaries out from the mine, rather than Cloaks acting under Ulfric´s orders to wantonly kill people how about the Silver Blood´s pressuring the Reach detachment of Cloaks into the massacre, with or without Ulfric´s knowledge cannot be known. Either way there are also mentions of drunk legionnaires killing civilians - Vex!

 

To conclude:

Braig´s time table matches if he was sentenced after the sack, nothing indicates he was imprisoned during the sack.

 

The argument that his memory is failing isnt based on ingame sources nor on lore (no mention that the prisoners in cidnah mine tend to forget things) so its pure speculation and Iam viewing it as a non factor because otherwise we leave the realm of a discussion based on hard sources and enter the realm of pure speculation and could be-s.

 

I countered all you points but please dont further derail from the guidelines I set up above, some can be argued but others like what constitutes a war crime in TES cannot be argued for lack of sources. Cant stop you but I wont counter them anymore as otherwise we will enter a giant grey area again that we cannot debate because of lack of info.

 

The question my original post opened is:

Did any war crimes happen in Markarth?

I say it cannot be proven and thus shouldnt be made a major point in CW discussions, a scholar who came to the city later claims so, anyone else who was there doesn´t mention it, what we experience ingame contradicts it - not the first example of imperial propaganda.

 

End CW topic:

 

 

It is still unclear how Men came to spread across Tamriel, and whether the Nedes are a decent group from the first wave of Atmorans, native to Tamriel, or something else entirely

Not my point exactly, but the quote from MK or another dev "Nedes =/= Atmorans, its propaganda of a bygone regime" is quite clear IMO.

 

That is clear is that the Reachmen and the Proto-Nords existed within the area of the Reach before the founding of the nation of Skyrim.

Yes, before the founding of modern Skyrim during Tiber Septim´s reign.

 

Who came first isn't clear, but the Reachmen certainly existed there before Skyrim, or any Empire, had claim over the region.

IMO wrong, the first nordic empire clearly also encompassed the Reach. Harald is accredited with having conquered all of Skyrim and we see ancient nordic ruins in both Falkreath and the Reach, two regions traditionally rather associated with the Colovian estates and the Forsworn. So clearly the ancient Nords had control over all of present day Skyrim. Even the Dwemer were chased from Skyrim following the Aetherium wars by the Nords for a time. We do not hear of Harald conquering any human tribes.

 

It is after the fall of the Nordic Empire due to the war of succession that other forces began to enter Skyrim. This is the crux of my argument:

The Direnni were known slavers - thats after all how the Bretons came to be. And they ruled for some time after the fall of the Nord Empire over western Skyrim, namely the Reach. I believe the Forsworn are the former slaves of the Direnni taken with them into Skyrim or having spilled over from High Rock following the fall of the Direnni.

 

There is no mention of the Forsworn prior to the conquest of Hestra several centuries? after the Direnni left Skyrim! None of the Songs of the Return mention humans in the land inhabited by Dwemer and Falmer. The Snow Prince also says nothing of them. However when the Nordic Empire expanded they got into High Rock and lo and behold they are astounded about the "manmeri" = Bretons, why being astounded about other humans outside of Skyrim if there were other human tribes in Skyrim?

The Forsworn claim they were always there because they don´t remember the times before they lived in the Reach. This is further made likely by the Hagravens, who according to them were always in the Reach, according to ESO, came to the Reach during the killing of High King Borgas by the Wild Hunt.

 

I cant prove it, but there being no account of the Forsworn prior to occasions where they could have immigrated: Direnni after war of succession + Wild Hunt for Hagravens, makes the timeline and lore I propose very likely.

 

In that case the Nords would have clearly more ancient rights to the Reach - Nordic Empire under Harald!

[Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts]

You know, it is kind of ridiculous that we truly never seem to be able to agree on anything within this topic. Still, I propose we do continue this but change our avenue. Instead of mindlessly, or with a lot of thought, throwing posts and comments at each other, how about we throw speculation, theories, opinions etc over board for once and instead come up with a comprehensive "report" on the subject both factions can agree on.

 

A report which is entirely, or as much as possible, only based on what the game and the lore present us with. Those sources might not be faultless either, nor does it give us a complete overview, but it´s the closest to it we have.

 

No "what ifs" and no predictions for the future. No speculations if the Empire could win if united, or if the Cloaks could do it with an alliance.

No theories without sources, so the source can be discussed and interpreted.

 

I believe we have to break this whole topic down into its basic parts, because otherwise we seem to only the same stuff at each other and only ever repeat the same arguments we always if ever only partly agree on. So, for now, no speculation about intentions or hidden plots, lets figure out what truly happened since the Thalmor reared their ugly head after the Oblivion Crisis. I would like to go that far back because incidents like the formation of the Dominion are of importance to what happened later on.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

For example, I´ll start with the Markarth Incident:

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Markarth

In 4E 174, while the Empire was distracted by the Great War with the Aldmeri Dominion, the natives seized the Reach with little resistance and broke away from Skyrim to form a short-lived independent kingdom with Markarth as its capital.^[5]Ulfric Stormcloak gathered a militia and toppled the natives in 4E 176, reestablishing Nordic dominance over the Reach.^[5] Desperate and alienated in their own lands, the natives began to call themselves the Forsworn and turned to their ancient traditions and rituals for help to rebel against the Nords. The Forsworn continue to wage a guerrilla war in the Reach as of 4E 201.^[3]

 

Now that´s what everyone knows and agrees on, the major point that is to be discussed is the book "Bear of Markath" by the Imperial Arrianus Arius, who also wrote this book defending the Forsworn: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_%22Madmen%22_of_the_Reach

Bear of Markarth

"Ulfric Stormcloak is considered a hero by many for his part in quelling the Forsworn Uprising. It is said that when the Empire abandoned Skyrim, and the natives of the Reach rebelled (undoubtedly due to the Nords [sic] poor treatment of them), Ulfric Stormcloak and his militia was there to retake "their" land from the Forsworn. In all the bravado and epic yarns the skalds compose of his exploits, you would think Ulfric to be a giant of a man, equal to that of Tiber Septim in his cunning, leadership, and decisive actions.

But the truth is far more revealing. Yes, from 4E 174-176, the Forsworn did in fact rule over the Reach as an independent kingdom from Skyrim. Yes, this was accomplished while the Empire was beset by Aldmeri Dominion forces and could not send the Legion to re-establish order. And yes, Ulfric Stormcloak did quell the rebellion without Imperial assistance. That much is true, but what the bards often fail to tell in their stories is that the Forsworn Kingdom was quite peaceful for those 2 years they were in power.

True, some crimes were committed against former Nord landowners (often those accused of being the harshest towards their native workers), but on the whole the Forsworn ruled their lands fairly, and were making overtures to be recognized by the Empire as a legitimate kingdom.

In the wake of the aftermath of the Great War, you can imagine the backlog on stately matters the Empire had. Before a peace treaty could be resolved with the Forsworn, a militia led by Ulfric Stormcloak sieged the gates of their capital, Markarth. What happened during that battle was war, but what happened after the battle was over is nothing short of war crimes.

Every official who worked for the Forsworn was put to the sword, even after they had surrendered. Native women were tortured to give up names of Forsworn fighters who had fled the city or were in the hills of the Reach. Anyone who lived in the city, Forsworn and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates. "You are with us, or you are against Skyrim" was the message on Ulfric's lips as he ordered the deaths of shopkeepers, farmers, the elderly, and any child old enough to lift a sword that had failed in the call to fight with him.

So when a "grateful" Empire accepted Ulfric's victory and sent soldiers to re-establish the rule of law in the Reach, it was no surprise that he would demand to be allowed to worship Talos freely before the Legion could enter. With chaos running through the streets of Markarth and the reports of deaths rising every day, the Empire had no choice but to grant Ulfric and his men their worship.

We allowed them to worship Talos, in full violation of the White-Gold Concordat with the Aldmeri Dominion (which recognizes the elven belief that Talos, as a human, cannot be one of the Divines). In jeopardizing the treaty that so many sacrificed for during the Great War, the Empire was wrong. But what choice did they have, I ask you? Against the Bear of Markarth, Ulfric Stormcloak, "no" is not an answer."

 

-The accusation of war crimes in BOLD and Red:

As I pointed out above the author of the two books listed is quite a defender of the Forsworn, and while his account is quite destructive to Ulfric´s reputation and causes many arguments among the community Arrianus account simply has several key points which don´t fit when you take other sources into account. Such as:

 

Madanach: " "There's a man named Braig inside these mines. Besides me, he's been here the longest." -(How come he is alive in the first place if Ulfric had everyone killed? Well I guess the Silver-Bloods could have smuggled him aside. But that too suggests that Igmund and his original Nordic Reach nobles had quick access to the city)

 

Quote of Braig, a Cidnah Mine prisoner in 4E 201:

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000e1623

"I had a daughter, once. She'd be 23 this year. Married to some hot-headed silver worker or maybe on her own learning the herb trade. ... But my little Aethra didn't want to see her papa leave her. She pleaded to the Jarl to take her instead. ..." - the girl was decapitated in front of her father.

201-23 year old daughter = she was born in 178! That´s two years after the sack of Markarth by Ulfric.

 

Ulfric became Jarl quite some time after the sack of Markarth, when his father died during his imprisonment. So there is little reason for him to be called Jarl by a prisoner who spend all the time inside the mine since the sack. I am quite sure that those two points were a hint by the devs and not an oversight. On the other hand...

 

http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Igmund#Igmund

"Igmund succeeded as Jarl of Markarth at a young age in 4E 176,..." - the year of the Markarth Incident.

Add to that that Igmund´s father was killed by the Forsworn either shortly after the sack of Markarth by Ulfric or during the Forsworn Uprising itself, (I can´t find Igmund´s relevant dialogue atm) and everyone who spoke to him knows how he hates the Forsworn.

 

What has Madanach to say about the sack:

"I had Markarth. My men and I drove the Nords out. We had won, or so we thought. Retribution was swift. I was captured, quickly tried, and sentenced to death. But my execution never came. Thonar Silver-Blood stopped it." - No mention of Ulfric at all.

 

Also: http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Forsworn

"Although Jarl Igmund claimed that the leaders of the Uprising refused their offers of peace, according to Arrianus no such offer was ever made, ... "

 

My conclusion is that it is very doubtful if Ulfric truly committed any crimes of war in the Markarth Incident. At the very least we have no proof whatsoever and the only one mentioning it is Arrianus whose account is to be doubted because:

-he clearly favours the Forsworn

-when you go to Markarth there are some old Reachmen shop owners living there, the owner of the alchemy shop comes to mind, so clearly not everyone was killed

-somehow Braig´s daughter and he as well somehow survived the purges made by Ulfric Arrianus tells us about, and then we learn that it is Igmund who is executing people for s#*! and giggles.

 

-The Talos Clause in BOLD and Green:

 

http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Forsworn

In 4E 176, desperate to retake the Reach, and with no Imperial Legions available due to the Great War, Skyrim enlisted the aid of a Nord militia led by Ulfric Stormcloak to retake the Reach by promising them free worship of Talos. In that year, the Nord militia successfully drove the Reachmen from the city of Markarth and reclaimed the Reach on behalf of Skyrim.^[5] Although Jarl Igmund claimed that the leaders of the Uprising refused their offers of peace, according to Arrianus no such offer was ever made, as Ulfric Stormcloak not only had anyone associated with the Forsworn executed after they surrendered, but also had anyone else executed without regard to race, age or gender if they had failed to assist the Nord militia in its campaign against the Forsworn.^[5]

When the Imperial Legion and the Thalmor finally returned to the region, they discovered the Talos worship. Igmund was forced to arrest Ulfric and his men or risk outright war over religious conflict. The Stormcloaks were eventually allowed to leave, but Igmund's broken promise left a fissure that would eventually widen into the Stormcloak Rebellion.

http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Igmund#Igmund

His father, Hrolfdir, was killed by the Forsworn. Prior to his death, Igmund's father and the Empire established a Nord militia that included Ulfric Stormcloak in order to re-secure control of Markarth, offering the militia the freedom to worship Talos in exchange for regaining control of Markarth from the Forsworn, a promise which could not be kept once the Thalmor objected. Igmund succeeded as Jarl of Markarth at a young age in 4E 176, following in his father's footsteps in siding with the Imperial Legion, and he continued the fight against the Forsworn for the next twenty-five years.^[5]

http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ulfric_Stormcloak

When Markarth was returned to Imperial control, the free worship of Talos there was officially permitted, a condition Ulfric demanded before he agreed to cede control of the city.^[7] Until then, the Imperial Legion had been largely ignoring Talos worship in Skyrim, but the Thalmor used the opportunity Ulfric provided to demand rigid adherence to the Concordat, and the Empire ultimately reneged on the agreement with Ulfric.^[7][9][10] Thus the incident was a key factor in bringing about the Stormcloak Rebellion.

 

Important points in bold and underlined:

 

While Arrianus makes it sound as if Ulfric came by himself there occupied the city and then only "forced" the arriving Legion to allow Talos worship in the city, every other account makes it sound as if Hrolfdir and perhaps even the Empire or the High King recruited the militia, back then not yet called Stormcloaks, and promised them free Talos worship in advance to taking Markarth.

So when he didn´t immediately hand over Markarth it was more him not wanting them to go back on their word and having them say it again. Something that obviously went over quite quickly as everything happened in a single year and Arrianus writes that Ulfric´s war crimes were still going on when the Legion arrived.

 

Is there really someone here who believes that the Legion would make such promises as free Talos worship after WGC simply because someone is butchering some rebelling commoners? The same Legion who said: "Damn the list, he´s going to the block!" or tortured innocent Quey because wasabi suddenly grew on their island and no one understood how? Or slaughtered large populations of of Quathnoquey because Uriel was paranoid?

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/3ivdzp/what_exactly_is_wasabi/

(I swear I saw the Wasabi Run text once directly, but can´t find the link anymore. If it´s not real, please tell me.)

 

My conclusion is that Igmund and his father hired Ulfric and a militia with the promise of free Talos worship to regain their hold and position of Jarl quicker than if they would have waited for the Legion to arrive - done so out of simple greed. Finally even the Legion acknowledged it official proclamation. That is until the Thalmor reared their ugly head and then everyone who he fought for simply betrayed Ulfric and imprisoned him.

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

All in all Ulfric took Markarth for Igmund and his father because they bought him with the promise of Talos worship, something they may have known would never fly. That we don´t know. Either way the claim that Ulfric committed war crimes is to be doubted. WE DO KNOW THAT IGMUND COMMITTED CRIMES! As such it appears more believable to me that the war crimes after the sack, if any happened at all, also were carried out by Igmund, his father, or the Silver Bloods. The later may or may not have been among Ulfric´s militia but we have no believable link to Ulfric having done anything untoward here. Not to mention he wasn’t arrested for any war crimes, and the Bear of Markarth claims he put ANYONE to the sword who didn’t stand with him, Nords included? You´d think this would have made more waves among the Nords.

Please niptick and tell me your opinions.

 

This is my take on the Markarth Incident, I´m going to systematically go through the different topics and hope others will do so to. The goal is to sort out where the differences between the supporter factions are and address them more precisely than in general - you are wrong and I am right discussions.

Hopefully we will come up with at least some points we can all agree on.

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I left out all the matters with the Forsworn as they have no direct place here. So please dont counter with arguments like the Forsworn are poor oppressed people or that the Cloaks are hypocrites for not allowing them their freedom when they cherish their own so much.

 

So please ignore the following in context with our original debate, I just felt like writing it even if it isn´t directly relevant.

 

I don´t buy that the Forsworn are natives of the Reach, we see countless ancient Nordic structures across the Reach. All dating older than the Alessian Empire which first subjugated the Forsworn in the 1E:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Legend_of_Red_Eagle

 

For example Reachwater Rock, which was Gauldur´s tower. Gauldur lived at the same time as High King Harald.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lost_Legends

... or Ragnvald and others. Not to mention that the Dwemer also dwelled in the Reach. King Harald is accredited with having conquered ALL of Skyrim (Dwemer don´t count because they are subterranean) so the Reach should be included here.

 

When High King Vrage established the Nordic Empire after 1E 222, there is no mention of the Reachmen. However in 1E 355 the Aldmer clan Direnni starts conquering large swaths of High Rock and western Skyrim = the Reach! until they are defeated in 1E 498 and High Rock´s Bretons gain independence from them. I believe the birth of the Bretons from human slaves of the Direnni is not questioned as well? So is it a stretch to say that the Reachmen are the left over human slaves of the Direnni when the Aldmer were driven out of the Reach?

 

And in 1E 1030 Empress Hestra conquers the Reach, killing Faolan, the Red Eagle.

 

The Red Eagle legend is interesting because it mentions the "old and venerable Hagravens", and in Skyrim the Hagravens are something that according to the Forsworn, " The spirits and hags have lived here from the beginning". And yet ESO tells us that the Hagraven transformation magic came to Skyrim in 1E 369 with the Wild Hunt that killed High King Borgas. Thus I very much doubt the claim of the Reachmen to truly know the history of the Reach.

From then on the oppression of the Reachmen through the Empire begins, until Tiber Septim has the Reach join the Nord ruled Skyrim. Plenty of time passed to let the belief grew in former slaves with little to no own culture to be the natives of the Reach! So no, the Reachmen aren´t Reach natives, they came over from High Rock in the form of Direnni slaves.

 

The exact roots of the Bretons and thus Reachmen aren´t known, they could be tribes of Nedes, Atmorans of pre Ysgramor times or even captured survivors of Saarthal. The only account of native humans = Nedes in Skyrim is Lamae Beolfag and her story - 1E year unknown. The author calls her and her people "nomadic Nedic tribes" and even that is dubious as we know that Nedes and Atmoran Nords are often mixed when they shouldn´t. However the names mentioned clearly aren´t Nordic so probably they really were Nedes.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lamae_Bal

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Opusculus_Lamae_Bal_ta_Mezzamortie

 

Who knows what the Falmer did to those Nedic tribes though?

[Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts]

Noooooo! Now I have no one left here to debate with, what should I fill my time of procrastination with now?

 

: How do you know Ulfric isn't already aware of the longterm threat posed by the Thalmor?

Because, he doesn't see that what he's doing helps the Thalmor. They knew he would be a bigger asset to them free rather than as a prisoner and they released him. He makes no mention to anyone of being aware of this.

 

I mean, for all we know, you guys are right and he is all about subterfuge and he is intentionally helping the Thalmor as the note implies. Though intentionally or not, his civil war benefits the Thalmor more than it benefits anyone else right now.

 

Knowing that the Thalmor are along term threat =/= acknoledging the civil war helps them, and Ulfric clearly states that the Thalmor are a long term threat and his ultimate enemies.

Sorry, but you're really talking out of your butt here. You really think the Thalmor don't care who wins the Civil War? You think they want to see an independent Nordic Kingdom?

 

Let me explain this even clearer. The most desirable outcome for the Thalmor is for there to be no outcome. It would be the most ideal if the two sides continue to war all the way until the Thalmor decide to attack again. That is what would be best for their goal and they will do what they can to make sure that happens.

 

However, if there is to be a victor, it would be better if the Stormcloaks won for the obvious reason that I will explain again (assuming same reduction of troop strength regardless as to who wins):

 

Empire Victory - Skyrim and her forces still support the Empire and still will have support of the Empire's forces.

 

Stormcloak Victory - Neither Skyrim nor the Empire will have the other to rely on. United we stand, divided we fall. Divide and conquer (I cannot spell this word to save my life, lol. I keep wanting to put another "o" in there for some reason). If the Stormcloaks win, the Empire divides and it makes them easier to conquer as well as Skyrim.

As others on this thread have pointed out, the Thalmor dossier on Ulfric states very explicitly that a Stormcloak victory is to be avoided, as is an imperial victory.

 

Yes, needlessly so since I already had this aspect covered.

 

Hopefully you and others will not miss it this go around and won't miss it here again:

 

If I'm Thalmor, I definitely prefer the Stormcloaks to win. I mean it would be most ideal for the war to rage on for awhile before either is able to claim victory but once the outcome happens it is definitely better for the Stormcloaks to win.

The loss of total life is pretty much the same, no matter who wins the civil war. So the total troop strength also is the same no matter who wins. So why would a independent Skyrim be good for the Thalmor? Because the Empire cannot recover as fast as before? They had 25 years to recover! That´s a whole new generation of soldiers and the provinces are fine on their own, over the long course of Tamrielic history the nations of Tamriel often were quite fine on their own. Reman built an empire from Cyrodiil, the Alessians did so too. IF the Mede are capable they would manage as well.

:

I know the note called him an asset and not the Empire.

And that dossier was about who again? Naturally they wouldn´t include others into that dossier. Who by the way should have been mentioned according to you? The empire as a whole? Titus Mede, Tullius, Elisif, Motierre, some unknown politicians? What about the Redguards? What about the Dunmer, Argonians, Khajiit, Bosmer, Orks, Bretons etc

We don´t have an Empire dossier, so claiming that the Empire, or rather certain persons within its administraton, arent assets because they arent listed in Ulfrics dossier ... means what? Nothing?

:

Not everyone with an active role in a play is the lead actor just because they're involved.

As for Ulfric being used by the Thalmor as "bait" to attain the goal of a weakend Empire, like I said earlier I agree but it's a 2-way street. The only reason Ulfric serves a useful purpose as bait is if the Empire takes the bait.

 

The only way the killer gets what they want is if the police attempts to save the hostages. Yeah, both parties play a part but clearly one is more responsible and more a pawn than the other.

 

They released Ulfric so he would do what he did... so that the Empire would do what it is supposed to do. You don't blame the firefighters for trying to put out a fire even if that whole thing is a trap.

 

I send an arsonist to burn someone's house so that the person will rush inside to save their family, even though all are doing what I expect/want them to do, the only pawn is the arsonist because I set him in motion.

 

No, but everyone is an actor in the director´s = Thalmor play. Face it, without WGC which was done by the Imps there wouldn´t be the Skyrim situation. The Empire was acted as the Thalmor wanted them too, just as much as Ulfric, because they acted as the Thalmor thought they would and took the bait

:

Of course, if the note is to be believed, he intentionally doesn't mention this fact because he does know because this is actually his intent. I don't know so I won't argue that but I do know that he makes no reference to this fact while others do.

Does the word "uncooperative" mean something to you? Srsly, the theory that Ulfric is an active Thalmor agent that grew out of that dossier is interestingly enough contradicted in the same dossier. Even several pro Empire players fully admit that he only helps them unintentionally!!

:

How much it helps them is irrelevant, it does help them. Period and it is in fact what they want.

Just as signing the WGC helped the Thalmor too. How much it helps them is irrelevant, it does help them. Period and it is in fact what they want.

He never states this or even acknowledges. - that the civil war helps the thalmor

How dumb do you think he would be to tell anyone he knows that fighting a civil war helps his enemies? He would be undermining his whole position. If he tells that to his people the rebellion would be over. We know that he sees the Thalmor as the major threat in the future, I posted enough dialogue of him to prove that. Anything else is speculation as I explained above he would be a horrendous fool to admit it to anyone that the civil war played into their hands.

Not sure how your explanation is saying a pawn isn't bait. Bait is manipulated onto a hook and manipulated into the water for the purpose of luring fish to being caught.

the sort of pawn we are talking about isn´t a chess pawn, and your fishing metaphor doesn´t hold either. IMO a pawn is something like an actor who acts according to anothers script: which means everyone who acts as the Thalmor want them to is their pawn! That includes Ulfric, Cloaks, Imps, Titus Mede who signed the WGC, and the list goes on all the way to the Khajiit! If the dragons and the LDB would act as they think, they too would be pawns! You cant srsly believe the Empire isn´t manipulated by the Thalmor either?? Do you srsly believe they expected Titus Mede to sign the treaty they proposed him when they came to him with the heads of the Blades? Do you srsly believe they didn´t include the Talos and Hammerfell clauses to split Redguards and Nords from the Empire? You cant argue that Ulfric is a pawn because he is manipulated and that everyone else who is manipulated just the same isnt a pawn. Dont just think on the scale of Skyrim and its civil war, all across Tamriel´s surface, people who act as the Thalmor want them too are pawns. This isnt a situation with two enemy chess players, its a situation where there is one chess player and his pieces try to get out of his grasp.

:

Ulfric was literally manipulated and released into the wild to do what they wanted him to do. That's the very definition of bait... which makes him a pawn.

And the Empire was literally manipulated through war to sign the WGC which made Ulfric useful in the first place.

:

The Thalmor didn't directly manipulate the Empire, they manipulated the Empire through Ulfric therefore he is the pawn.

Blades incident led to Great War, GW led to WGC, Empire was manipulated through force of arms/diplomacy/espionage. WGC led to Ulfric starting the Stormcloak rebellion. Ironically, if you say Ulfric would have rebelled to become High King anyway, he wouldn´t be a pawn of the Thalmor either, because according to your definition as he would just do what he wanted anyway.

Then again, if the note is to be believed, he does in fact know and is doing what he is doing intentionally for the benefit of the Thalmor. Not saying I believe that, just saying it is more of a possibility than some of the points you and others have tried to make as some of them have less of a basis to them than this note.

It isnt more of a possibility because the very note you refer to says otherwise. "uncooperative + dormant asset" You think they´d label him as such if he acted on their word or willingly in their interest?? And why did you change your opinion of the dossier for this one sentence yet in the rest of the thread you acknowledge that he isnt a thalmor agent?

even if that isn't in their more dominant traits.

and your opinion of his dominant traits would be based on what exactly? You dont have any source to base this on. You think its a bad move to divide the Empire and its manpower and thus you call him short-sighted, and I have no idea why you´d call him a bad politician? But did it ever occur to you that the "people" in universe have far more info than we do? That someone who actually fought the Dominion and was a member of the Legion actually knows more about it than you do? You can´t make such claims and cement them as proof of argument or reality, because they are just theories that might be contradicted in the next game or validated. It could very well be that a Hammerfell suddenly allies itself with Skyrim and the two make a pact with the dragons to fly them over to Alinor and they devastate the island! Galmar even speaks of getting aid from the dragons! And suddenly that undefeated fleet of the Dominion amounts to nothing. But that too is just a theory that might or might not happen. Fact is, from what we see happening ingame, Ulfric is the most capable politician of the province. (apart from Maven!)

subterfuge isn't his strong suit.

Again source? That he didnt see how his escape from prison was staged? Depending on how it happened he might have killed several lower ranked Thalmor that were sacrificed to make it convincing. Sure, if the door to his cell suddenly wasnt locked anymore he is an idiot for believing to have escaped by himself. In the above scenario not so much.

And arrogant because he believes in his own abilities? IMO someone is arrogant if he takes self confidence too far and overestimates himself. We dont know enough about his "escape" to be able to judge him on this, furthermore a single instance of overestimating himself because Elenwen made him believe to be capable of it isnt ground enough to call him arrogant as a whole.

That he was captured simply means that his intelligence network isnt as good as the Legions, a problem yes, but no insurmountable one. High Kings like Hoag Merkiller, Wulfhard, Olaf One-Eye etc didnt have a good intelligence division either I suspect. Was it a problem for them? Not really. And calling out Ulfric on being bad at subterfuge because his intelligence network is lacking, then what of Titus Mede? The Blades were all killed off as well, the Penitus Occulatus was outsmarted by the Black Brotherhood, all of it planned by elements of the Elder Council.

We do know what they want. They want their opponents to be weaker. Divide and conqueor. Standard ancient and still widely used strategy.

A strategy which, under certain circumstances, is totally not applicable to a world where gods lay dormant while others walk the stars, invasions of mythic proportions devastate incredible civilizations and Heroes walk among them.

Divide and conquer, do the Thalmor really want to conquer Tamriel? Perhaps they simply want to keep the Empire weak so they can reconstruct the Numidium? In that case the Imps strategy of slowly rebuilding is just playing into their hands, because in that case the Dominion needs to be attacked NOW!

The Thalmor engame is unkown! In fact merely conquering them certainly isn´t the goal, the Thalmor always wanted to return to a pre Convention state. I wouldn´t know what ruling over other races would serve them to that goal.

And calm down, lol. This is a game my friend and it won't change regardless as to our discussion. It's one thing for some light jabs here and there but no need for so many caps. I don't want any blood vessels bursting over this.

no worries, but sometimes I feel like I repeat arguments several times and want to bring some points across. If I cap, underline etc something its simply because its an important point.

It could be seen as speculation, but unfounded, no. There's plenty of foundation from history to common military strategy to logic. (which you can say their logic is different from ours but I have yet to see them really think differently from us (I mean releasing Ulfric is exactly something we would do and have done in various situations) so...)

Again: WE DONT KNOW WHAT THE THALMOR THINK AND OUR "LOGIC" DOESNT APPLY!!

 

To the last point: 1st of all, sorry! Secondly, I spoke of what logic would dictate, humans don´t act logically, our actions arent based on math and emotions always play a role, otherwise we would be machines. Because only machines dont have that emotional baggage that makes us human.

The point I wanted to make is that 1st, what might appear logically, to us as detached observes, might be seen totally differently in in-universe. The Empire´s reaction to the civil war and human actions in general cannot be reasoned with logic all the time. Think of animals if the example with humans is too insulting for you, a mother mouse would discard her kids if a snake enters her burrow, to save herself and guarantee the birth of the next generation - that is logic. Attacking the snake and dying in vain isnt logic. Depending on how much sentience you say mouses have you´d speak of emotion driven actions. Saving your loved ones at the price of both of your lives, there is no logic behind that action. What purpose does it serve?

 

So yes, if you argue that the Empire´s actions is based on logic, than you just gave Ulfric a hefty boon. Because if you would have paid notice to my last sentence, youd have noticed that I wrote that Ulfric doesnt follow logic, he acts out of emotion. He is the "idiot" who´d rather die fighting and free.

You once compared the factions to the red oni = emotion and the blue oni = logic, then isn´t the Empires logical response to the Thalmor incredible insulting according to your own words?

 

Wasn't Ulfric, among others, suspecting the Thalmor of being behind the Dragon attacks in Skyrim? So he suspects that they might have instigated the Dragons to attack to create discord (which admittedly we all know is inaccurate)

Interestingly enough this is a wide spread opinion among the people in Skyrim, Delphine too immediately assumes that the Thalmor are controlling the dragons. Though as a Blade she should know better, no mere mortal can control a Dovah! Funny thing: Hadvar believes the cloaks to have called the dragon, something Galmar actually wants to turn into a reality. Yet he adds: "We wouldn´t be able to fully trust a dragon anyway." - enter the Dragonborn XD

[Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts]

Padre86: Well, it would make sense that there are more murders and disappearances during a time of armed conflict versus a time of peace. But as for the abductions and murders in Skyim by the Thalmor themselves, again what proof do you have that this was not happening prior to the Civil War?

IMO the persecution of Talos worshippers began with the Markath Incident: we can gleam from several dialogues that the Thalmor only were allowed to "purge" Skyrim after Ulfric made a fuss over Talos worship. The Markath Incident was the point at which the Empire was threatened by the Dominion to not renegade on the WGC, it would make sense that the Thalmor patrolls began with it. We do know that the persecution began before the Civil War because its one of the many reasons people join the Cloaks and yet none of them blame Uflric for this happening, nor is it stated outright that the Thalmor began "purging" the land due to Ulfric´s rebellion.

 

: A civil war in Skyrim does play into Thalmor ambitions, no one will deny that. But let's not pretend that this was the Thalmor's only avenue for trying to destabilize and weaken the Empire. It's not like they were basing all their plans on the hope that disgruntled Nord would return to Skyrim and start a civil war. If Skyrim stayed at peace, the Thalmor would have no doubt looked to other avenues.

IMO simply finding, or planting a random Talos worshipper would be enough to force the Empire to allow the Thalmor to persecute Talos worshippers in Skyrim, which in turn quickly would have destabilized the province, and finally causing unrest as people tend to react badly to their family being taken away. Actually the Thalmor do a piss poor job at doing so, I mean is it so hard to buy Talos amulets en masse, reverse pickpocket them into some random citizens pocket and then arrest them??

TheObstinateNoviceSmith

Oh, but of course you meant in support of the idea that the Empire is just as much a pawn as Ulfric in which case still doesn't support this. If I know it is a trap to go in an save my friend's (or insert any desired important loved one here) life and know that is what my enemies want, I am not a pawn nor am I just as much the reason for what happens as my enemy is. What am I supposed to do? Not save them?

Well, yes, under these circumstances logic would tell you not to save them. After all saving them causes the death of two people, whereas leaving them to die would kill just one person. Still going out to save them just makes you an idiot. And if your death furthers another goal of your enemy down the line aka not you walking into the trap itself, by walking into the trap, acting as they wanted you to, you become a pawn in their scheme.

Perhaps you are willing to take the risk and rather die while doing the right think than watching your friend die doing nothing? But you see that last point only applies to Ulfric, as Skyrim doesn´t need saving, its Cyrodiil that needs saving, and the Empire is in Skyrim not to save Skyrim but to save itself.

[Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts]

I know it is a wide spread theory and I know that even ingame many in both factions say it, but isn´t proof either as obviously those aren´t all knowing or wihtout bias either.

 

If only those who opposed him were saying it saying this isn't proof would have a bit more validity, but since there are those in support of the Stormcloak cause who also say it...

If I remember correctly its Dengeir who claims that Ulfric is just after the throne, right? Dengeir, the one who doesn´t even trust his own friends. And even if there are others and if many of them are from the cloaks ... how many of them truly know Uflric as more but a passing accaintance? If I question the people in your street about you, how much of what they tell me will be true and how much made up or because of hearsay?

If you hear that your new neighbour is a asshole from lots of people you don´t just blindly believe them but talk to the guy himself!

 

You do not have any proof to support this, neither do the cloaks and imps saying it. It is NOTHING but an opinion! and to base the theory that he would have rebelled against any king under any circumstance on such a baseless opinion is IMO not something you should debate with as there can never be arguments for or against it, because it is just an opinion.

 

: Either you're saying Ulfric is too dumb, shortsighted, and or impatient to figure out other ways to accomplish the goal of removing Thalmor influence... or this was really about obtaining the crown.

Perhaps he is too dumb? Who knows? But, with our limited knowledge of the in universe logistics, politics etc, I dare you come up with a method to oust the Thalmor by the year 202 4E from Skyrim that doesn´t involve civil war!

:

"He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken),"

 

Okay, the information obtained after breaking him was useless so I was definitely wrong about that aspect... however, apparently he was still an asset to them which was really the point:

 

"...After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset..."

No, the point was that you claimed he aided in the fall of White Gold, ...

:

How much he helped here would be speculative and pretty much irrelevant so I would need to see where it says the information he gave was useless and there can be no source that says otherwise in order for that to stand.

... no ones arguing that causing the CW doesn´t further Dominion interests. But, so does the Empire, as a war cannot be waged by Ulfric alone. A war needs two factions. The Empire too could have always told Ulfric and Skyrim to walk their own path and averted the war. Unlikely? Yes, because it acts like an empire acts. The Empire doesnt fight to gain troops against the Dominion but to keep its most important province in the fold. If they truly just wanted to be as strong as possible against the Dominion they should have spared lots of lives and made a secret treaty against the Dominion with Uflric, or whoever becomes High King. But that is just my opinion.

 

pawn=/=bait, to address your fishing metaphor, IMO a pawn is a person who is manipulated, through bait if you want to, to achieve a goal.

Goal=weakening of all enemies

Pawn1=Redguards - Bait1=south of Hammerfell

Pawn2=Ulfric - Bait2=Talos

Pawn3=Empire - Bait3=rebellionin Skyrim

 

Ulfric is not this political savvy guy. He's a general. The Warrior Leader, but he's not an idiot. It's due to his ambition and or shortsightedness (maybe even arrogance as it isn't even implied that he knows the Thalmor LET him escape) that he is unable to see how he is actually being used.

 

...her competence, or lack thereof, has no bearing on Ulfric's

I just gave you several quotes from his dialogue that show he is a good politician, no matter if he is lying or not, I showed you examples where he managed to come over quite well IMO:

Elisif after the taking of Solitude

High King mention in the victory speech

the political agend he had when killing Torygg

pulling a rebellion out of his arse

Is he political savvy? Yes, he is, otherwise he wouldn´t mind the pride of the Jarls and simply declare himself high King. Otherwise he´d ignore the political boon leaving Elisif as Jarl gives him. In the whole game, to me at least he appears to be the best politician, which is why I compared him to Tullius and Elisif, as I needed some kind of standard to compare him to. After all I am sure you agree, we cannot compare him to a RL politician?!

Balgruuf: instead of making the war end quickly he is the typical fence sitter, which causes the war to drag on end at the end he may just make the false decision for his city if the LDB joins the cloaks.

Igmund: the genius promised Ulfric something he couldn´t promise and caused the whole debacle in the first place! Why does everyone say Uflric is thecause of the Markath incident - this is the guy who caused it all!

Igdrod: is so in touch with her people that they pretty much all talk down on her and has so little respect from her people that her own huscarl is reminding people to respect her yet is at the same time trying to overthrow her.

Korir: hates the greatest asset of his city, not without cause but still. Doesnt have much respect from the other Jarls either.

Elisif: Need I say something?

Siddgeir: a good businessman. If corruption falls under business savvyness.

Laila: errr Maven, nough said.

Skald: paranoid, old manchild

Tullius: the face of the empire in Skyrim - incapable of routing a rebellion while having overwhelming numbers, shows clear disdain for the dominant culture of the land, cant convince Balgruuf to join him until Ulfric gets trigger happy, cant get the Silver Bloods nor the Forsworn under control, fails to work well with the stubborn Jarls of Skyrim in general as can be glimpsed from his "stubborn Nords, you and your damn Jarls"

Titus Mede: wasn´t political savvy enough to understand he would have quite a bit of resistence against the Concordat which sells away half a province and outlaws worship of Talos, nor does he have control over the Elder Council which goes so far to assassinate him.

 

Is he arrogant? IMO he is a doubt riddled warrior on a guilt trip, some arrogance is there but then again everyone has some.

"I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn."

"Is any man ever ready to give the order that will mean the deaths of many."

"I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's [sic] names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."

The Throne of Ysgramor! The throne of my father... I only hope I can prove worthy of the honor.

"Skyrim might not belong to me, but I belong to Skyrim!"

 

How should he know that he was released and didn´t escape? No one but the Thalmor know, Tullius doesn´t know that either. Tullius only states that the civil war serves Thalmor interests. When he tells Ulfric as much, Ulfric isn´t surprised or anything, nor is Galmar (who just doesn´t understand who Tullius meant by "they"), afterwards Ulfric goes on and says how he knows that the Dominion is the true threat.

 

: logically, it would favor the Thalmor more if the Stormcloaks won than if the Empire was victorious, all things being equal.

That´s your logic, might be right, but it´s not based on anything in the game and is thus speculation as we dont know what the Thalmor want! Perhaps a success of the cloak rebellion damages their propaganda back home, perhaps it incites revolts in Elsweyr, Valenwood. Perhaps they dont have the ressources to undermine several governments and would have liked to place their spies in a single government - WE DONT KNOW WHAT THE THALMOR THINK AND OUR "LOGIC" DOESNT APPLY!!

 

: He still is very much good for the Thalmor and doesn't see that. He is why they didn't need to come up with another way to distract the Empire.

Ulfric, was their plan and he obviously doesn't know that.

I guess this is the crux of your opinion on the matter?

Yes he is being manipulated, and yes starting the civil war and fighting it helps the Thalmor. Winning it? What do the Thalmor themselves have to say on this: "Thalmor Dossier: A Stormcloak victory is to be avoided" - we dont know anything beyond that. Anything further is unfounded and pure speculation.

As such, it can be said that the moment he actually wins the civil war, the help to the Thalmor ends and he might from then on make up for the previous help he gave them.

The problem is we don´t know enough about the Thalmor endgame to make assumptions: a popular theory was that they wish to weaken Talos by ending his worship, which probably isn´t the case and isn´t even possible, BUT if it would have been the case a Stormcloak victory would have been a disaster for the Thalmor.

 

Well, what does it matter if he knows he is being manipulated? Tullius clearly knows as he said it himself that the war furthers Thalmor interest, yet Tullius still participates in the war. Which is even worse than Ulfric, if he truly is ignorant of the matter, as he runs into the doom with open eyes.

[Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts]

 

 

 

: TheObstinateNoviceSmith

 

But there was a huge problem with that for him, his chance to be High King would have likely never came or taken longer than he would have liked.

 

There´s no proof whatsoever that Ulfric´s driving goal is to be High King. It is even outright stated that under Istlod, Torygg´s father Ulfric wouldn´t have pulled his duel stunt because Ulfric respected him too much. I know it is a wide spread theory and I know that even ingame many in both factions say it, but isn´t proof either as obviously those aren´t all knowing or wihtout bias either. At the very least most of what Ulfric himself says contradicts it: "Skyrim might not belong to me, but I belong to Skyrim!"

Now naturally he also might lie, he also might lie when he is only talking to Galmar, we dont know, and we never will, but to say that he would have started a civil war for the crown alone no matter what, is nothing but pure speculation based on hearsay!

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak

The Thalmor don´t want a Stormcloak victory! It is stated as such in Ulfric´s Thalmor dossier: "A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided,"

 

On the info he coughed up and how helpful it was:

"He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken),"

 

Some further dialogue:

"I have shown the people that when our Jarls drink the Empire's milk, it makes us weak. I must now show them the path that will lead us back to our strength. There is no progress without sacrifice. No wheat without threshing the chaff. The Empire and the Jarls who back them must be swept away. The people demand it. I demand it."

"Not entirely true, though not entirely false either. Any Nord can learn the Way of the Voice by studying with the Greybeards, given enough ambition and dedication. My shouting Torygg to the ground proved he had neither. However, it was my sword piercing his heart that killed him."

"I killed Torygg to prove our wretched condition. How is the High King supposed to be the defender of Skyrim, if he can't even defend himself?"

I challenged him in the traditional way, and he accepted. There were many witnesses. No 'murder' was committed. True, he didn't stand a chance against me. But that was precisely the point! He was a puppet-king of the Empire , not a High King of Skyrim. His father before him perhaps, but not Torygg. He was too privileged and too foolish, more interested in entertaining his queen than ruling his country."

- On the duel with Torygg

 

At this point, you can ask Ulfric if he desires to be the High King. He will respond by not giving you a clear answer and instead says, "There hasn't been a true High King in Skyrim for generations. For too long he's been hand-picked by the Emperor, and given emphatic nods by milk-drinking Jarls addicted to Imperial coin. It's time we had a real king. One of our own making." -This could indicate an underlying wish to become High King, but at the very least he is subtle about saying it. But no matter how you dice it, he never implies that he wants to become HK no matter the cost and no matter who sits on the throne. At least how he says it here it seems he would accept a strong HK.

 

"We're fighting because we're done bleeding for an Empire that won't bleed for us. Untold numbers of Nords died defending the Empire against the Dominion. And for what? Skyrim being sold to the Thalmor so the Emperor could keep his throne! We're fighting because our own Jarls, once strong, wise men, have become fearful and blind to their people's suffering. We're fighting because Skyrim needs heroes, and there's no one else but us." - Why he started to rebel

 

"My father, the great Bear of Eastmarch, died during my imprisonment after the Markarth Incident. I, his only son, forced to deliver his eulogy via a letter I had smuggled out of prison. Such is the love of Titus Mede for his subjects." He will then continue, telling you about his return to Windhelm: "When finally set free, I returned to Windhelm, and was greeted by a city in mourning, at one with my own grief and anger. Clamoring in angry voices, calling out for justice, for war, they sat me on the throne. The Throne of Ysgramor! The throne of my father... I only hope I can prove worthy of the honor." -Might be a ruse, but the last part doesn´t sound like a power hungry monarch.

 

Then the Great War came... I couldn't stand missing it. I often think about High Hrothgar. It's very... disconnected from the troubles down here. But that's why I couldn't stay, and why I couldn't go back. I suppose the Greybeards care about Skyrim's troubles, in their way, but I needed to do something about it. - clearly this shows how much of a disregard he has for Skyrim -note the sarcasm-

 

The Greybeards believe the Voice should be used only for worship of Kynareth. I have... fallen from their strict teaching, but I still don't feel it should be used lightly. Not all of Arngeir's lecturing was wasted, it seems." -

 

That´s his dialogue, it might be just a facade of him but if it is it at least makes him a good liar IMO, otherwise this clearly shows that he cares for Skyrim and its people, respects the Greybeards and their philosophy far more than I do and is fully aware of the moral grey areas of using the thuum and of the rebellion. And yet he does it because he feels it is something he MUST do.

 

"We've been soldiers a long time. We know the price of freedom. The people are still weighing things in their hearts."

"I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's [sic] names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."

Your words give voice to what we all feel, Ulfric. And that's why you will be High King. But the day words are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed."

"I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn."

"Is any man ever ready to give the order that will mean the deaths of many."

- dialogue with Galmar alone, clearly he is a powerhungry monster.

 

"There will be peace for a time, during which we must rebuild Skyrim into the land it once was. Strong. Self-reliant. The center of mankind. Because getting rid of the Empire was only half the problem. Soon, the elves will again seek to rule the world. We must ready ourselves to fight them. For it will be Skyrim that shall lead Tamriel in those dark days, when the fate of the world is finally determined."Though the biggest threat, of course, is the elves."

...

"Stop what? Taking Skyrim back from those who'd leave her to rot?"

"The Empire is weak, obsolete. Look at how far we've come and with so little. When we're done rooting out Imperial influence here at home, then we will take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion." - at least he clearly intents to combat the Thalmor, so yes, he knows they are the true enemy.

 

Galmar: "And now, I present to you, Ulfric Stormcloak, hero of the people, liberator and High King of Skyrim!"

Ulfric: "I am indeed Ulfric Stormcloak, and at my side the man/woman we know as Stormblade, and the world knows as the Dragonborn. And indeed, there are many that call us heroes. But it is all of you who are the true heroes! It was you who fought a dying Empire who sunk its claws into our land, trying to drag us down with it. It was you who fought the Thalmor and their puppets who would have us deny our gods and our heritage. It was you who fought your kin who didn't understand our cause, who weren't willing to pay the price of our freedom. But more than that, it was you who fought for Skyrim, for our right to fight our own battles... To return to our glory and traditions, to determine our own future!"

Soldiers: "Huzzah!"

Ulfric: "And it is for these reasons that I cannot accept the mantle of "High King." Not until the Moot declares that title should adorn my shoulders will I accept it."

Soldier: "And what about Jarl Elisif?"

Ulfric: "Yes, what about the Lady Elisif? Will she put aside her personal hatred for me, and her misplaced love for the Emperor and his coin, so that the suffering of our people will end? Will she acknowledge that it is we Nord's [sic] who will determine Skyrim's future? Will she swear fealty to me, so all may know that we are at peace, and a new day has dawned?"

Elisif: "I do!"

Ulfric: "Then it is settled. The Jarl will continue to rule Solitude, I will garrison armies here to ward off Imperial attempts to reclaim the city. And in due time, the Moot will meet, and settle the claim to High King once and for all. There is much to do, and I need every able bodied man and woman committed to rebuilding Skyrim. A great darkness is growing, and soon we will be called to fight it, on these shores or abroad. The Aldmeri Dominion may have defeated the Empire, but it has not defeated Skyrim!"

 

-Note the underlined bits, he had Galmar bring up the point of high king so he could publicaly decline it because it makes him appear humble, and I´m sure in RL he would have planted that soldier shouting about Elisif to back her publicaly into a corner and make her swear allegiance. Clearly he can use coercion and political subtlety, even if it appears heavy handed to the Jarls and those in the know, to the common soldiers and masses it comes over very well.

 

On the Dunmer in the Grey Quarter:

Jorleif: "Sir, there continues to be unrest in the Gray Quarter."

Ulfric: "Blasted dark elves. I don't suppose you could tell them that I presently have larger concerns? Such as all of Skyrim?"

Jorleif: "They don't seem to be very sympathetic to our cause, sir."

Ulfric: "Let me know if you hear anything more substantial?"

Jorleif: "Of course, my lord."

-he isn´t even clearly dismissing the Dunmer, note that Jorleif spoke of unrest without clear cause and Ulfric does want to know what is going on more specifically.

 

Saying that he isn´t diplomatically and politically or strategically savy is also ignoring all the other players on the Imp side:

Elisif? "Let´s make a parade!" It is even stated by her own Thanes that she is incompetent.

Tullius? "Wherever you Nords go when you die..." + "Damn your Jarls!" Even Rikke is exasperated by him and how he is ignorant of Nord matters, "I dont care either way if you surrender or not, your heads will be send to Cyrodiil" To Ulfric and Galmar, quite blunt if you ask me? At least more blunt than Ulfric: "The Empire I knew didn´t surrender!"

[Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts]

 

 

I do have to argue a bit for Hannibal´s sake here: the war in Iberia´s holdings of Karthago was unimportant in the grand scheme of things compared to Hannibal attacking Rome directly, or rather ravaging their main land.

Most scholars actually attribute the war in Iberia, and the resounding Roman dominance therein, as the reason Hannibal was eventually forced out of Italy and never took Rome. The constant pressure on Carthaginian holdings elsewhere, and constant victories, helped maintain the support of Rome's allies (Hannibal had counted on them abandoning Rome) and also ensured that Hannibal received none of the promised reinforcements from Carthage. Because of his need to remain constantly mobile to resupply, Hannibal was reliant on those reinforcements to replace heavier siege equipment lost over the Alps, which would have allowed him to assault Rome-Proper. In addition, it was the eventual collapse of Carthage's territories in Ibera which allowed Rome to pressure the city-state its self, and force Hannibal's eventual withdrawl. The Iberian side of the Second Punic War was what decided the entire conflict, whereas Hannibal, though he could win every battle and is the most famous element, was something of a sideshow.

 

Sure, but IMO Iberia was just the outward deciding factor at the end. What I´m trying to say is that IF Hannibal had succeeded in taking Rome, Iberia would have been unimportent. After all Carthago itself wasn´t threatened, they could have held out longer and send troops to Hannibal instead of trying to hold on to their silver mines in Iberia. Personally I attribute quite a bit to politics here, Rome was a nation of farmers at the time while Carthago was an ofshot of the Phoenician traders. Hannibal would have known of Pyrhuss and his "victory", unless the modern peoples opinion of him is really skewed I think he would have taken thinks like running out of money to pay his mercenaries into consideration. Rome was threatened and thus unified, Karthage wasn´t and thus the council there was all about personal profit leading to mismanagement. That´s my take on things, but that Iberia would have been unimportant IF Hannibal had succeeded in Italy is ... more of a fact XD - which is what I meant by grand scheme of things.

 

There is definitely an element to gameplay to be had here, but the numbers may not be as skewed as you think. Consider, we know Windhelm has been sacked at least 3 times in history. It's a relatively low altitude city with multiple landward approaches. It's heavily fortified, yes, but not impregnable.

 

Solitude, on the other hand, has only fallen once that we know of. After a month long siege. It's location alone is far more difficult to approach, and while it would be very vulnerable to sufficient explosives, Tamriel really lacks a way to threaten the city's foundation.

Your points would be valid if I or Rikke and Tullius would have been talking of winning the war or marching on Solitude, or Windhelm, but I talked of Whiterun and they talked of Whiterun. A city both factions had to walk to - even a similar distance. I admit that the Legion actually would have had to send less soldiers as they always are on the deffensive side of Whiterun, but afterwards they still had enough troops to assault 4 other hold capitals. Furthermore Tullius always wanted to station troops in Whiterun but Balgruuf denied him. Which IMO means the Imps from the beginning had the troops to spare!

 

On the other hand the Cloaks apparently at first didn´t have the troops to attack Whiterun, they were so few that the idea was a joke to Tullius ... and suddenly they did.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Legate_Rikke#Quest-related_events

Rikke: "I'm telling you, Ulfric's planning an attack on Whiterun."

Tullius: "He'd be insane to try. He doesn't have the men."

Rikke: "That's not what my scouts report, sir. Every day more join his cause. Riften, Dawnstar, and Winterhold support him."

 

This piece of dialogue clearly shows that the Cloaks have a constant stream of recruits that builds up their forces, forces they didn´t have before because the rebellion was just starting. After escaping Helgen with Hadvar, if the player character asks who the other prisoners were at the beheading, he will say that Ulfric Stormcloak murdered the High King "a few months ago" - in 4E 201. Now Skyrim is in fact a giant country, I recently read the book "The Sage" and it took the protagonist several months to travel from Moonguard to Shorhelm (a distance comparable too Windhelm-Whiterun), so it would have taken time for the people to join the Stormcloaks - which is what I m arguing.

IMO at the battle of Whiterun the troop strength of both factions is similar, or perhaps the cloaks even have the advantage as they see no problem with attacking Whiterun, no matter if the Dovahkiin is with them or not, they think they can win. BUT at the start of the rebellion the cloaks were in vast minority - at least I hope so because otherwise the Empire´s intelligence network is truly hopeless! Not seeing a single problem Jarl amassing troops in the same amount as the Legions in Skyrim?!?!

 

This tells me 3 things:

-that Tullius at first managed to push back the cloaks isn´t that impressive as he had the vast advantage in numbers

-that the cloaks managed to rout the Legion before that on the other hand is impressive, however it might simply have been because of better preparation for sudden hostilities and morale

-that the cloaks could have won the war if the LDB never intervened in the Civil War, mind you I am not talking of the cloaks winning without Alduin attacking Helgen

 

I mostly agree with your answer to Padre86, as you can see from my own post above yours, but would like to point out some things:

-IMO what Padre wanted to point out is that the Dominion armies can be beat by the less magic inclined legions. Actually Skyrim even has a magical advantage over the Thalmor: the College of Winterhold allows the study of necromancy and I am sure that if push comes to shove, even if it is normally shunned in modern times, the Nords will remember all those draugr running around in the ruins and make use of them, whereas the Dominion won´t use necromancy because of their religion.

-at the end of the Civil War in the victory speech he also shows some subtle political moves: saying that he won´t crown himself High King unless the Moot says so is pure image painting as his dialogue with Galmar afterwards shows, furthermore by telling them he´ll attack "on foreign shores" he also keeps his troops on a warpath which is economically and moral wise important and still leaves open who he will attack! He also leaves Elisif as Jarl of Solitude, something I can only explain as another political move as now Elisif will be forced by his military in her city to vote for him in the Moot - which in turn cements his reign as more legitimate in the eyes of the Nords.

-the Nords were plenty succesfull over the centuries without political back stabbing, it´s not their forte and never will be. If he would be like that he wouldn´t garner that much support either.

-we don´t exactly know how the treaty was handled pre Markath Incident, but IMO the Talos temples across Skyrim would still have been closed since the Thalmor would have gotten wind of that otherwise and forced the issue another way.

-the Thalmor manipulate BOTH SIDES of the civil war! Not just Ulfric and the Nords alone, the Empire is playing into their hands just as much. If the Empire truly would have wanted to concentrate on the Dominion they could have let Skyrim leave and not bothered to waste troops there! But they didn´t, they want to hold onto their power over the remaining provinces and Skyrim is necessary for that. The Thalmor forced an issue where the Empire as an Empire wouldn´t ignore it and the Empire played into their hands by not ignoring it, just as much as Ulfric, the Imps perhaps less so but they aren´t without fault. There were plenty of ways to secure the support of High Rock, Morrowind and Skyrim in a alliance against the Dominion. Even Hammerfell could have been let off more gently, I mean srsly?? did Titus Mede really think that the Redguards would let the Dominion have half their land??!!

 

No matter how you dice it the Empire, no Cyrodiil always steps on the toes of the provinces!

How did they help the Redguards? A general defied orders and left some troops behind - excellent propaganda for the Empire!

How did they help Morrowind after the Red Year or against the Argonians/Hist - not at all as far as we know! Clearly they show their worth as a peacekeeping force and continent wide government on Tamriel!

And Skyrim? Well perhaps they should have reacted sooner before a militia takes back Markath? Or perhaps they/their subordinate Jarl Igmund shouldn´t have promised Ulfric free Talos worship and then went back on their word?

Valenwood? Elsweyr? Why didn´t they act as they still could push the Dominion off the mainland? Yes I know Summerset and Valenwood where coups but Elsweyr apparently was a civil war as well - why didn´t they act!?

 

And that´s just what the Mede Empire did wrong!

 

Titus Mede II migth be a good military commander/warrior but he and his predecessors obviously sucks at politics and foresight, and the Elder Council, ... well they are the Elder Council. When all my provinces run over to a sworn enemy I ready my army or at least try something to stop their advance. When someone comes to me with the heads of all my spies in his territory I don´t laugh him off because obviously the guy is better prepared than I for conflict! Emperors cant wage costly wars and then come out with nothing to show for it, even worse he actually capitulated on previously stated bad terms that are designed to alienate him from two very important provinces after a huge victory!! No matter if it was justified, its very bad for his image! At the least he should have abdicated so that people would be placated and have a slightly longer fuse under a new ruler. That he didn´t and that no one ever mentioned his children, that those children weren´t at Vicci´s wedding either, indicates to me that he doesn´t have any living heirs or none that are fit to take the ruby throne. In that case the Empire, no matter what happens in Skyrim, is finished as the civil war in Cyrodiil after Titus II´s death (either because of DB or old age) will tear apart the empire and make all of the provinces independent. - that´s how I see the Skyrim situation with different possible winners being resolved: "After Emperor Titus Mede 2nd death Cyrodiil fell into a civil war over the succession which resulted in every province gaining national souverainity."

 

And could actually please answer me my long standing question on the legion/legions in Skyrim? Are there 1 or 9?

[Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts]

Ulfric was manipulated, Not brainwashed! But there is no indication whatsoever that the internal document of the Thalmor is a fabrication! However Ulfric is not aware he has been manipulated and according to the same document there was no "diplomatic" contact between him and the Thalmor since Markath - since his second imprisonment! Safe to assume that their contact back then consisted out of a Thalmor diplomat who accompanied the Imperial forces who arrested Uflric to make sure the Empire acts according to the pact. He is NOT their willing or even knowing agent, the help the Thalmor gave the Stormcloaks was to be "covert" and thus IMO even secret from the Cloaks themselves.

 

Furthermore the document names him an "asset", let me tell you something; Titus Mede, Tullius, Rikke etc they are ALL assets to the Thalmor! Everyone who participates in any capacity to prolong the Civil War or any other unrest within the Empire is an asset! Everyone, even Mottierre, or however else the Council guy was called.

 

Skyrim can survive alone, it has done so before. Cyrodiil can survive alone, it has done so before. All of the provinces can stand on their own! They aren´t some small regions with 5 towns and that was it, in the first place the land ruled by the Dominion consists out of the 3 smallest provinces! Their total land amounts perhaps to Cyrodiil itself alone. Considering the different time Mer and Men need to grow up Cyrodiil by itself can outlast the Thalmor!

Srsly you are all overestimating the Thalmor! They lost both of their armies when attacking the Empire, that´s not something they can do willy nilly only to achieve some obscure bjectives. They simply don´t have the necessary numbers. So the whole attack on the Imperial City was pure idiocy, even if they would have managed to kill Titus Mede, the Legions in High Rock, Skyrim + those coming over from Hammerfell would have ripped them apart. They not only weakened themselves by splitting their armies, they also overextended their supply lines and were cut off from a retreat option. They got haughty and paid for it!

Yes, they still did fight for 5 years with the Redguards, perhaps because their fleet was still intact and the land they fought over is on the coast?!!

I am not saying that they aren´t good tacticians and mages, however their magic isn´t that sensational either, otherwise the Legion would have lost at the Red Ring and the whole moon affair probably wasn´t them either. Even if they were responsible for that, there is nothing indicating they have something of the same caliber that actually damages things on Nirn itself.

They got the drop on the Empire once because their spy network being better and the Empire becoming lax, very lax. When one province after the other secedes you can´t not notice when all your agents suddenly go dark!

[Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts]

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Stormcloaks

"mostly hit-and-run tactics to overwhelm the larger Imperial armies. ... their use of armor is lighter and thus not as tough, but the Stormcloaks use a wider variety of weapons to make up for this."

 

I know, I know its the wiki, but Uesp agrees:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Stormcloaks

"They primarily rely on the use of axes and other melee weapons in combat, and use hit-and-run tactics to gain advantage over the larger Imperial armies."

 

I can´t find an ingame evidence right now, perhaps it was on one of the loading screens?? Either way, to assume that a hastily established rebel force of volunteers would be as well equiped as a professional army is not feasible for me, not even in Skyrim where every family apparently has their own suit of armor in the house.

[Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts]

 

that they are unable to go through the normal recruitment and training process

 

Which IMO just means that they don´t have the necessary time and need them on the frontline against the stormcloaks, thus sending them unprepared. But that´s exaclty it, we are talking here of the fresh recruits! Recruits that only would have been enlisted after the civil war broke out. Naturally they are unprepared and so on, that´s just how it is if you don´t have reserves. IMO they are just bemoaning that they can´t transfer the legions in Cyrodiil and High Rock into Skyrim.

 

I give you that the new recruits enlisted during the war are sub par. But so are any recruits the stormcloaks enlist during the war. We see ingame that redguard farmers and other peasants go and join either side. that´s a problem that both sides have not just the Legion. We also know that the rebels grew a lot in number. When Rikke says they´re going to attack Whiterun, Tullius dismisses her and says the cloaks dont have the numbers. In turn the Legion has no problem marching an army to Whiterun. So I dare say: the Imperial Legion far outnumbered the Stormcloaks at the beginning of the war.

 

The comparison with Hannibal doesn´t count, Roman legions of that time weren´t mercenaries like under Caesar and later on, those were all levies of the Roman citizen and allies. Yes there were some core legions, and yes those fought in Spain and Sicilly, but those were only the core legions because they existed even during the peacetime for peacekeeping and had more training because they had more time to train until they reached the battlefield in Iberia. I do have to argue a bit for Hannibal´s sake here: the war in Iberia´s holdings of Karthago was unimportant in the grand scheme of things compared to Hannibal attacking Rome directly, or rather ravaging their main land.

The military situation of the Legion during before and during the civil war is IMO as following:

9 full but poor legions, one for each hold and legate (we know individual legions are lead by legates and there are 9 of them in Skyrim, the legions of a province are lead by a general)

-apart from some they werent veterans of the great war but trained and outfitted normally

-I accept that they probably were understuffed and less than optimal geared up as most of the money and any surplus troops flowed south

-if their size is comparable to Roman legions than their numbers is probably around 4000, I take the lower limit because Oblivion Crisis, Infernal City and Great War + lost provinces would have taken a toll on the full army the Mede Empire could field - thus ~ 36.000 legionnaires.

Torygg is killed.

5 full but poor legions + 4 damaged legions,

-the legions stationed in the 4 old holds are pushed from the cities and there are many deserters.There are always deserters in a war and especially in a civil war, furthermore we know from Morrowind that the city guards are actually legionnaires loaned to the ruling lord so we can safely say that the city guards of Riften, Windhelm, Winterhold and Dawnstar are all deserters from those legions ~ 20.000 + 4x ???? legionnaires

-Whiterun is counted as Imperial held as Balgruuf´s neutrality is paper thin, at least ingame - I would accept another lore position, as the city guards attack stormcloaks, and there is no legion camp in the hold but a stormcloak camp

 

Compared to that the Stormcloaks are a slowly organizing band of volunteers + ex legionnaires:

-yes, they are led by veterans - so is the Legion!

-there is a core unit, Ulfric´s old militia from the Markath Incident (an unit that was disbanded by the Legion back then, we don´t know how many truly joined the Stormcoaks)

-the bulk of their numbers joined them after the war already started, and thus those too would be fresh recruits. We don´t know how many they had as they attacked Whiterun

I cant provide sources, but as far as I remember:

-they have even less gear than the legions

-they resort to guerilla warfare due to being outnumbered by the Legion

-they too only began to train new recruits on masse after the civil war already had begun

 

This is my understanding of the troop situation, please tell me where I´m wrong, as the topic actually interests me apart from the whole Imps vs Cloaks debate.

 

The rumour that there is just 1 legion in Skyrim IMO came about because they always talk the THE Imperial Legion and people dont understand that they are talking about the whole of the "Ruby Ranks", all of the many 18+ legions make up the Imperial Legion. For some reason no one wondered about that in Morrowind, as I dont remember them mentioning being several legions or perhaps even telling us their legion number.

[Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts]

 

...The fact that the Stormclaoks, cited as being composed of many veterans of the Great War, can't beat locally recruited militia in Legion uniforms (again, there is no proper Legion in Skyrim. They have a few token officers, and even all their gear seems to be commissioned locally)...

 

Where do you get this from Lachdonin??

I have scoured the internet for sources because everywhere people claim there is just a single legion in Skyrim. Either the 4th, 9th or whatever. But I found NADA!

 

If you accept the command structure from the book "The Great War" then a general commands several legions and each legion is commanded by a legate. That´s exactly the same as in history. In Skyrim we have legates for every hold and a general to lead them all, each of them should lead a legion.

I fully accept that those legions are reduced, through desertion and such, the Great War is 25 years past - no legion would still reduced because of it!

True, the legates always say they are forced to recruit locally, IMO to make up their losses! because in the "The Great War" it clearly states that General Jonna came from Skyrim with her Nord legions. It would be foolish to post Nords in Hammerfell, Elsweyr and Black Marsh and Redguards + Argonians in Skyrim.

 

I hold that the Stormcloaks are fighting a fully working provincial Legion force! The legate´s legions are definitely damaged and they have no reinforcments from Cyrodiil but the regular peacekeeping force is in the province!

 

Lastly when the player wears the imperial leather armor the guards greet you with "I see you wearing the armor of an imperial/legion scout..." Skyrim really doesn´t have the terrain where you could apply large scale formations or anything, IMO the civil war would be apart from the sieges mostly many skirmishes. Thus it makes sense not to deck out everyone in steel plate.

And yes, the smiths all say how they provide the Legion with arms, but again it would be nonsense to import weapons and armors from other nations. Naturally they would by things on spot, the travel time alone makes it the better choice!

[Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts]

Even though I believe in Ulfric's stated cause, I do not agree with Ulfric himself. 2 things that leave a really bad taste in my mouth with joining the SCs.

 

1. Ulfric's attack on Whiterun cannot be justified under his stated cause. Whiterun is not an enemy to Ulfric, nor is Whiterun an ally to the Empire at the start of the game. But what's more, Whiterun is the only city in Skyrim to openly allow Talos Worship out in the streets.

 

2. After Ulfric's victory speech in Solitude, he turns to Galmar who says "Nice touch about the High King, It's a foregone conclusion you know" (Referring to saying he won't take the position until the Moot) Then Ulfric replies with "Oh, I know." Meaning Ulfric wasn't being sincere about taking the position as High King but just going through the motions to make it look good for the Jarls. That really pissed me off. After All I did and all I betrayed for him to say something like that? If the game let me, I'd have killed him on the spot for that. So from that day forward, I will never join the Stormcloaks. EVER!

 

Some thoughts on your points:

 

1:

The cause of the Stormcloaks is to separate all of Skyrim from the Empire, by that notion Whiterun or rather Balgruuf was an enemy to them! Yes, whoever isn´t with them is against them, that´s how things are done in wars. Balgruuf being neutral is as much a humbug as the war not mattering to the Dunmer in Windhelm - as if the catapults of the Legion didn´t also fire into the Grey Quarter! Balgruuf was the typical fence sitter who probably made money from both sides. Furthermore the hold had immence strategic importance as even can be seen in the questline, rich fields, and a central position in the province. Where else could large amounts of troops move through to attack the other holds? Through the marshes of the Hjaal? Through the Jerall Mountains? Ingame this didn´t pose a problem but in universe this would have amounted to Hannibal moving his army through the Alps. And lastly, the reason the civil war continued for so long was because Balgruuf didn´t pick a side until forced. He helped the AD´s goal of continued strife just as much as the feuding parties.... well not AS much.

 

Whiterun isn´t the only city in Skyrim that allows Talos worship, it´s just the only city that has a statue of him on the outside! Whiterun has the only open Talos temple, Markath and Solitude closed down their Talos worship. Winterhold and Dawnstar are to pitifully small to have temples and Riften is all about Mara. Mora alone knows how Balgruuf kept the AD from taking Heimskr and the Battleborn mother prisoner as with all the traders in the city it couldn´t have been kept a secret. Probably patrols in that area tended to go missing.

 

Ulfric did send Balgruuf an ultimatum in form of his axe, Balgruuf rejected the attempt to strong arm them to the Stormcloaks. A foolishly honourable move might I add. IMO he should have marched his troops up to Whiterun and send the axe then. That way he would have kept the element of surprise on his side and Balgruuf might have joined out of fear of his city being sacked.

 

2: You hate him for vocalizing something everyone knows? I mean naturally it is a foregone conclusion that he´d be crowned with all the Jarls being instated by him, who else should they vote for? ... Elisif? Furthermore this is one of the few instances where anyone in the game showed political skills, or at least propaganda skills. He actually just demonstrated that he actually is ... somewhat capable of doing the job of High King.