WightMage
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Posts posted by WightMage
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There is a difference between a newbie and a noob? You're pulling my leg, right? :)
I am trying to paste text. But I asked on the troubleshooting forum and from what I understand, Internet Explorer does not work with the Nexus site. I don't want Firefox, but it seems I have no choice. *sigh*
But I would have a completely different question:
As I am working myself slowly through the basic modding guide, I realize that modding takes plenty of space. I wanted to buy a new computer anyways, so I womder, what kind of hard disk space makes sense?
There's a difference alright. Newbie is typically endearing, while noob is usually derogatory.
Also, don't forget to consider processor and gfx card, especially if you want to use any intense graphics mods, such as Real Vision.
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In response to post #24900869. #24904704 is also a reply to the same post.More likely, the gaming industry's bubble will just burst, ruining most of the largest ones and a few indie companies, just like the housing market. It'll recover, of course, but not for awhile.SoMteam wrote: What we need is a second video game crash. Otherwise the greed will ruin the fun of games entirely. The comments in this thread back me up on this.Taiolu wrote: Soon. The games+ thing hipster indies are doing, the ban from games feature valve is doing, and gamergate with its autoblocker thing going will all combine into a storm of hellfire into an autoblocker for games. Consoles will become nonexistant with the turn of quantum computers and all that will be left is a sea of pure chaos that sweeps videogames to death. Compatibility with these games will not be bothered by the likes of microsoft, nvidia may likely perish. In the end of the storm may come a day, a game on par with doom in terms of beginnings, and the chaos will cease and form an even better method of video games. Time shall have passed where virtual realty lets you even smell the air around you. All will be well, there just needs to be a big enough shitstorm first.
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In response to post #24852949. #24853204, #24853924, #24853949, #24854139, #24856504, #24857199, #24857919, #24858264, #24862004, #24880089, #24894324, #24896929 are all replies on the same post.I remember this quest mod, probably one of my most favorite back when I used to play FO3. I'm sad to see the original author is no longer with us.CaladanAnduril wrote: Look here, how the subject is discussed...
http://www.moddb.com/news/the-uncertain-future-of-paid-mods
A more rational and calm way of debating about modding and community.
Mean time people... watch the numbers, Nexus is bleeding mods and authors EVERY day and the numbers of hidden mods are growing at a frightening rate.
And don't tell me that that ALL those authors are money hunger... they are just disgusted about what happened this days and it still continue.
Among other, Fallout 3 lost an extraordinary quest and adventure series...
Endless walls of words, meaningless words, just watch the numbers and maybe you will begin to understand what is ALREADY happening.
What a victory...ramccoid wrote: @CaladanAnduril
Well said.
It's time to give it a rest, why keep trying to flog a dead horse. What's done is done, let's move on and see what can be salvaged from this whole sordid mess.Xavathos wrote: Well said.
It is indeed sad to see the damage that has been done in the last week, but it is not too late. :)aegiltheugly wrote: I keep seeing that claim (mostly from the same people) but I haven't seen any data to back it up. How about some verifiable information rather than some generalized claims.CaladanAnduril wrote: Xavathos who could know how late it is ?
Tnx the storyteller01 I read an excellent article ( link in his post below).
You should read it...
Quote
" It's common to see the community tear at itself over Valve’s policies, but the users persecuting the modders was new, and has created a rift that is still fresh and may remain here for a long time".woodrobin wrote: There was anger at Valve and Bethesda for taking 75% of the money for mods were, other than releasing the Creation Kit, they did 0% of the work. The only fault that could be laid at the feet of modders there was in choosing to participate in such an obviously imbalanced system. But far worse than the 75%/25% split was the NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement)
There was a lot of general anger at modders for participating, but I think it was spilled over from legitimate problems Valve and Bethesda created. Here were the main problems:
1. Lack of communication between modders and players. This was 100% caused by Bethesda's and Valve's requirement of a NDA, which prevented modders from sharing information. The modders know their communities of users, have trust relationships with them, and shouldn't be cut off from the communication that created those bonds.
Fault: Valve and Bethesda.
2. Lack of preparation, explanation and communication from Bethesda/Valve. This compounded the first problem. If they weren't going to let the modders handle public relations, they needed to step up and do it properly themselves. They didn't.
Fault: Valve and Bethesda.
3. Lack of curation, policy and policing. Lack of curation allowed buggy, ugly one or two item mods to debut alongside works of art like Purity. Lack of policy allowed modders to upload mods that included works they didn't have clear rights to (as with the fishing mod and FNIS, for example) because they were given bad advice, and were prevented by the NDA from contacting other modders to ask for permission, as it normally works in this open community. Lack of policing allowed people to upload mods they in fact had no hand in writing at all, and the process of catching and correcting such action was nearly non-existent.
Fault: Valve.
4. Modder misbehavior. This was rare, but given the already poisoned atmosphere around the launch, the backlash spilled over to modders who didn't, for instance, taint or withdraw free previous versions. The NDA and shoddy PR don't excuse putting game-interrupting, immersion-breaking pop-up ads in the older free version of a mod, for instance. That's just going to rub some people the wrong way.
Fault: A very small subset of modders, for which all modders unfairly took flack by association far too often.
Fault for that: 25% Valve, since the NDA was so corrosive to trust and communication, 75% us, for triathlon of pitching fits, casting aspersions and jumping to conclusions.Xavathos wrote: @CaladanAnduril
I knew optimism was rare but.. this is breaking new ground.
Alright, I'm pulling back out of this entire "discussion".
Even a simple hope has to be immediately crushed under the pessimistic foot of the vocal community. More and more am I realizing why so few actually bother to post anything here. Disgraceful.KeltecRFB wrote: Woodrobin, I agree, I can not believe Bethesda claimed 45% and Valve claimed 30%, what the heck did Valve do other than have a place to post mods. Shoot the modder can post it here or create their own website like those modders that have been kicked from the Nexus or decided to leave. The most valve can claim without being idiots is 10%. As for Bethesda, no more than 15%. I don't care what industry standards dictate, let's be realistic and not be greedy. Yes, I do believe in capitalism but I don't believe in being Bernie Madoff {With Your Money}. Bethesda and Valve already made their money and now they are robbing the poor modder by double dipping. To do this correctly, place a donation button by the mod. Those who are impressed by the mod, the mod author's support, and can afford it, they will be happy to donate and I have seen it many times here on the Nexus of people wanting to donate money for their perception of a quality mod or because of great modder support. Those that can not afford donating or are just too cheap to donate, they can download the mod for free like it is now. Those who donate should have the most say and access to support. Those that don't, do not have as much pull and support. And if Bethesda is receiving a cut, then all assets from previous games should be available to make the mod and to those who donate instead of having to already owned the game. Although most that donate probably already own the game. The good thing about donating is perhaps the Mod Author will be more compelled to continue support of his/her mod and not burn out as fast or can do it to make extra money on the side or if they are unemployed. Although the donations will not support them, it would be nice to have something extra. About 20 years ago, I was in a similar situation and ran my own computer repair business. I had a few clients and I was able to make extra money to cover things. Nothing to live on but it made life more comfortable and I did this until I started installing DSL when DSL was first rolled out and I would be on a call with the NOC or Central Office for 4 hours to see if the ATM PVCs had been built or changed, or to see if the phone connection had been properly SLAMMED (connected to the DSLAM).
EDIT: It appears there is already a Donate button here on the Nexus but I do agree with Dark One, it needs to be more noticeable because I didn't notice it until he said something about it. The Donate button does allow you to donate to the modder via Pay Pal or you can donate a Nexus Premium Nexus Supporter to them as well.OiramX5 wrote: Ha! I knew it it was the quest for heaven mod have been removed from fallout 3 before I even look!
I remember the author was complaining and crying all the time because his mod did not the success his hoped and he was disappointed because was a low number of downloads and blablabla, and funny the "few" people who has played really like and give congratulations to him (Me included)... really great thing of his part, maybe I should clap for him... sad even the 3 part where the half of things of the work was made by others modders was removed too... ah well, that author I really expected this act, and is more funny he almost never appeared before and now sprout of nothing just to remove... I go laugh a little to this fact rsVesuvius1745 wrote: The sky isn't falling yet. The TES modding community has been around since Morrowind. There are peaks and valleys (and Skyrim is now 4 years old), but I don't see Skyrim mods going away anytime soon (at least until the next TES game comes out).CaladanAnduril wrote: @ Oiramx5
Your comment only prove the level of discontempt and arrogance you have towards someone who provided a FREE mods for your entertainment.
In fact there was TWO authors, in AQFH 1 was Firelady, in AQFH 2 was Firelady and AndromedaCrescent and in AQFH 3, since Firelady died in a car crash it was only AndromedaCrescent.
A mod series for Fallout 3 who had more than 150.000 downloads is far from the "the low numbers of downloads"you gracefully mention.
And they were not happy with the low endorsement ration ( something around 3% ! ).
But of course, your discontempt and selfishness show up AFTER you played a FREE GIFT from them to YOU... disgusting.OiramX5 wrote: CaladanAnduril
I begin to be arrogant when the modders start to generalize everyone, when in fact exist people who support them in the beginning, I was one of them, I support the AQFH since the first statement and that how she repay hers supporters, fans, etc.
Selfishness I? Really? After I was supporting her and she do that? hahaha
Sorry, if you like to be spit in the face by them and smile, is up to you, I dont like to be treat like that and is that the point why I be arrogant with some people.
Man, you read what I wrote?
I say the own MODDER AUTHOR was saying that, she was complaining because the low numbers, she was expecting be the first mod of the month and so on.
And you played her mod?
It was difficult, hard and long, is not for everyone, maybe that the people dont endorse that time because dont like it, I dont know, but I like, endorsed and thanks her, and is this how she repay who actually like her mod.
I dont remember if andromedacrescent help in the 2 part, but a pretty sure I dont see him before the part 3. You can say she died, but I dont heard about that so is just rumor to me.CaladanAnduril wrote: I will spare you from the effort
http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/1206169-in-memoriam-firelady/
Maybe you will continue fighting the dead and those who continued her work, as a regular user, trashing everything AFTER you use it.
I'm modding and helping modders for long time, it was always a matter of friendship beyond borders and language.
But the Nexus community if one of the most dirty I ever encountered.
Keep fighting the dead... -
In response to post #24893994.FYI: Dark0ne, also known as "Robin Scott," is the founder and owner of the Nexus. (his name is at the bottom)fearalice wrote: Not to undermine the big news post made by someone with authority/power (sorry, but i am not social enough on this site to know who ".Dark0ne" is, nor any other names that have been tossed around), but when an issue like this comes up that many people feel strongly about it's not going to immediately quiet down with a "Okay everyone, it's done lets move on". Some are still not happy with the aftermath. Some are still concerned with "Okay, steam and bethesda backed off for now, but what's next?". It's basically like ACTA and all of it's incarnations. This one failed, now they'll try again, and again, and again until the public outcry isn't strong enough for them to have to retract it again and then bam, it's basically written in stone from that point on.
For one, i love mods. They make good games great, and incomplete/broken games playable. But the best part is they are free. Bethesda put out a largely flawed game missing tons and with plenty to be fixed. This is evidenced by the existence of the unofficial skyrim patch, dawnguard patch, hearthfire patch... See a trend? Even their DLC has glaring issues they didn't even bother to fix. So give it ten years, when paid modding is the norm and we have lazy, greedy developers who put out just enough to be modded then work on dlc. Then we have to spend another 60 dollars through mods to get the game to how it should be. All the while the developers/steam will be seeing profits off of all 120+ dollars it takes to play a game. All it will do is promote piracy further, and i'm pretty sure that's something developers, vendors, and modders who charge for their content do not want.
I'm not even going to get into the flaws of the system, since this post is not about that.
My reason for typing all this up even though it'll likely get burried and read by next to no one is that i feel the ONLY way to show just how much against this we (who are against it anyway) are is to keep voicing it. If Steam's most recent attempt to see how much further into our wallets they can dig is met with massive resistance that just dies out as soon as it's redacted temporarily, it's just going to be that much faster that the next attempt comes around.
I know there are a lot who do disagree with this view point, and that's okay. But to just say "Okay guys, lets move on" and to just drop it would be a mistake, sorry for disagreeing with the OP on this.
-Edited to remove obnoxious smiley
Good points though. -
On that note, would anyone be interested in a donation matching event, where for every dollar someone donates to a mod author, the host donates a dollar to charity?
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In response to post #24871339. #24886114, #24887249, #24887719, #24888359, #24889504, #24889659, #24890009, #24890154, #24890484, #24890884, #24891049, #24891434, #24891459, #24892539, #24892854, #24893109 are all replies on the same post.Wrong. Someone will miss them, because its a tragedy that he's leaving because of people with your attitude.phantompally76 wrote: There will be no sweeping the past couple of weeks under the rug. Too much has happened; too much as been said. Too many true colors have been shown.
This controversy has exposed a rift that has existed between mod authors and mod users for years. The nature of the relationship between those entities has changed forever. Mutual trust, appreciation and respect are gone. Mod authors used this controversy as an excuse to lash out at mod users for not being appreciative enough (with their wallets) over the years, and for not supporting the monetization of amateur modding. And mod users used it as an excuse to lash out at mod authors who don't recognize mod users as being an equally important factor in the modding community, and for trivializing users' thankfulness and gratitude or authors' efforts because it wasn't in the form of a check.
No, this tale is not complete, and in the end, no one "won" anything. We lost some really good mod authors. On the other hand, we lost some really arrogant, selfish and belligerent mod authors as well. We also lost several dedicated and appreciative mod users, and yes, we lost some unrepentant sociopaths who weren't here to argue for any cause, but instead to foment strife and ill will.
But what did we gain? New blood? New modders to replace the old? I'm not so sure that anyone who has been living under a rock for the past 4 years and has never played Skyrim is going to pick it up as a result of this fiasco. Will mod users who have never even tried to make a mod before step up and replace the casualties? In a toxic environment where mod users are lashing out at the most trivial issues with mods, and mod authors are lashing out at the most trivial criticisms, would any sane individual want to get involved in this community? I guess we'll find out.
My own personal modding habits are definitely changing. Moving forward, I won't be using any mods that are dependent upon SkyUI (not only because they were going to charge for the latest version, but because of the arrogant, taunting, condescending manner in which SkyUI's devs addressed the entire community; proponents AND opponents of paid modding alike), so there goes 90+% of the mods out there. And that's ok. I was getting really fed up with script-intensive mods causing save bloat and CTDs anyway. And today I remembered that I only ever used SkyUI because I was compelled to, and that I actually preferred the vanilla menus all along.
So moving forward, my modding is probably going to be restricted to texture replacers, and that's ok, too. It will be nice to not have to worry about whether a mod is going to glitch the game or make it unplayable. I've actually been having fun the past day or two loading up on mods that replace SMIM; mods I would have otherwise never even looked for, and that might finally get their fair shake in the spotlight. That, at least, may be ONE positive that comes out of this ordeal.Brasscatcher wrote: Unfortunate, but very very true, man. I just rushed my last save to endgame because I plan on flushing the deck. I will not say that I didn't enjoy seeing the artistry or the contributions made by some of the mods I used on this run; as a narrative-oriented player, one of the things I enjoy about modding a game is how we each can alter the narrative for each other's experience of the game...but I'm definitely going to have to reassess my posture on a few things going forward.GrimCreation wrote: I'd be inclined to agree with some of your points in regards to all lashing out on all sides which took place in this paid mod mess, though I do find your take a bit extreme for my tastes.
Further more I do believe you're generalizing a bit too much then what I'd think would be reasonably fair. The community is huge both in regards to mod creators and users.
Is it really fair to lump bulk of each respective group into the 2 major fighting sides?
Also just because this event was horrible train wreck doesn't mean future will be so grim. People can learn from their mistakes and make good efforts not to repeat them.
However you are entitled to your own views and as fairly rational person I shall respect that even if I don't agree with all of it.sunshinenbrick wrote: I feel a little self-conscious linking my own post but it is part of discussion that is blooming here, one that we must not forget. Some here have read parts of this thread before and I promise this will be my last reference to it as I feel I have taken it as far as I can really.
From the Topic: 'Is the word "user" negative?
My final post:
Thanks for the responses! I would have to agree there never can be anything wrong with the word "user" as word in its own right, and maybe all this simply has not been an issue that has entered people's minds till now, as the boat had not yet been rocked.
My justification for asking the question in the first place, which has garnered a few views since this happened, was from the incisive approach that the, shall we say far right and far left, seemed to take on the many issues, with a strong sense of immediate "us vs. them" mentality. I (and maybe a few others) would like to try and understand these issues and allow others to contribute to the discussion. This is not the conclusive chapter, as it seems common sense that when the next wave of potential changes come, a number of the 9 million people from BOTH "camps" may, in the heat of the moment, feel misrepresented or unappreciated and therefore feel threatened and lash out, like ANY HUMAN would.
Interestingly on the subject of self worth, I tried to donate to a member yesterday for what I thought was a commendable effort in helping the community. The member said, but I have no mods of my own, and was genuinely shocked at the idea of why someone would want to donate to them.
I just wanted to throw the doors open as to why exactly we all are here, as for me it is most certainly not just about downloading mods, yet I also, most certainly, do not fall in to the mod "author" camp. As a Graphic Designer/Lecturer, and an aspiring, experimental "modder", troubleshooter, and veteran game emulation enthusiast, I feel I fall somewhere in the middle of all this, as do perhaps the vast majority of people I have had the pleasure to become acquainted with over the years.
I only hope for everyone's own sake we can find a cohesion so we can all exist together and not take each other for granted. Ok, its cliche, but 'united we stand, divided we fall'
Thanks for reading.
SNB
Link to discussion, please add your opinions:
http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/WightMage wrote: I'm afraid that while I understand your actions, they are a bit extreme for my taste. The us versus them mentality comes from users of all sides, and I believe we do no one favors for "scorching the earth." In the case of SMIM and SkyUI for instancw, it is worth noting that Brumbek and Schlangster respectfully are trying to make amends with the community- Brumbek is re-releasing his mod and left said apology on the mod description page, and Schlangster of SkyUI has stated that he "is not a sore loser" and will release SkyUI 5.0 here after the next SKSE update.
Certainly they were in error earlier in the conflict, but does it not mean anything that they're trying to work with us instead of casting us off, like others already have? And what so we gain from spitting upon their apologies like that?
It is everyone's own decision and right to make their mods compatible with theirs or not, but I don't think we will really fix our community until we can forgive those who ask for forgiveness. And I may suffer from foot in mouth somewhere down the line but, come on man. The only ones holding back the Nexus' growth is us. Few things are inevitable if people are just willing to try.LP1 wrote: Mods would exist and be shared even if there weren't mod users (users who don't do any modding themselves). That's how the community started. On the other hand, mods would not exist without mod authors. A significant chunk of mods would not exist if it weren't for a single team of mod authors: the SkyUI team. All MCM-driven mods have them to thank.
So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not.Tyerial12 wrote: and mod authors would have nothing to share with or make money without the users so yeah.. When people release mods they do it for fun and to get reconized as a mod author so tit for tatLP1 wrote: Modders would share with other modders. Again, that's how the community started. Leeches contribute nothing. They are not important to the community. They are important to this site, and this site will treat them well, because this site is ad-supported. Leeches == revenue. And, yes, some mod authors do seek recognition. But mostly from other mod authors. And just as many couldn't care less. Leeches are totally unnecessary to modding. Mod authors are absolutely essential. So, no, there is not equal footing. Users who think they should have an equal say and don't see that as rampant entitlement are just fooling themselves.sunshinenbrick wrote: @ LP1
While I see what you are saying (I think) it is true that the number of people who consume everything and give NOTHING back are not the vast majority of people.
I do a lot of modding on my games, from armors to textures, a little bit of scripting, custom plugins and ENB configurations, but I unfortunately have a business (so I can have money to donate to modders) and a family (who I have to save some of my money to look after). This means I do not have the time to commit myself to release anything I would feel able to support enough to warrant charging for it, I am an amateur. I also take copyright very seriously and therefore do not feel like I should be benefiting from many many years of hard work and passion.
While we do have the less knowledgeable newer generations who do unfortunately (not always intentionally) see the world as "theirs for the taking", there are equally people who have come into the scene, do a re-texture and speak as if they had created SkyUI or Falksaar.
My point is that we all started out not knowing anything and we build our knowledge up over time, some more quickly as they may be young and learning coding at school, others slower because it is a hobby outside their day to day commitment of being a part of a complex society.
Speaking of society and "community" perhaps we should take the responsibility to teach and help the people who may not know any better, rather than just putting people into two camps of "useful" and "useless".Tyerial12 wrote: i do not agree at all as sharing with other modders would also make the modder a user aswell. as if there was no users the population would drop and so would your endorsements and the sites population
but i will not argue with the blind. Its true mod authors are important but so is the users aswell. you guys want money for your efforts but think users are not important? good luck selling your stuff then
see yaFarvahar wrote: To follow up on your statements on down-scaling the ambitiousness of modding in order to avoid save game bloat and other performance issues:
I deleted Skyrim from my machine in protest of Valve/ZeniMax shenanigans. When the dust settled, I reloaded it in order to try the game first from a vanilla standpoint, and then to load select mods with some donations to each mod author that I want to support.
I find the vanilla game to be absolutely acceptable, and it runs quicker, loads faster, and saves within a second or so. There are things that can be improved, and things that can be added, but I will do so in a more controlled fashion than my first couple of years as a mod user.
I actually think this ordeal can give Skyrim modding a second wind, but the pressure will be on with GTA V and Witcher 3 as well as Fallout 4.LP1 wrote: Modders have businesses and families, too. And yet they contribute anyway. No one has the right to tell them they can't attach a price tag to something if that's what they choose, unless it it's Beth. Because it's Beth IP. Angry mob or not, time moves on and paid modding will eventually come to TES. Users don't get to make that choice for modders. Some mod authors will always choose to give away their stuff for free. Others will chose to charge. It's the same as someone choosing to spend time at the business instead of making mods for the community. Everyone gets to make their own economic decisions, whether we all like them or agree with them or not. If someone decides to attach a price tag to their work, I can choose to pay it or not pay it. I can't choose to force them not to be able to charge to begin with. At least not without feeling like a terrible person. Youtubers make money off of modding if they are good. The Nexus makes money off of modding because it is good. Modders should be able to make money off of modding if they are good.Farvahar wrote: Yes, people should give back and not "leech" but not all of us can mod, and there is no reason to exclude millions of people from a community when they can contribute by:
1) donating, right now it isn't as easy as it should be
2) play testing
3) posting remarks, screen shots, or videos to share the mod or improve it
4) becoming modders, which many do after being "leechers" at first
5) adding to the user base to increase add revenue, that isn't to be sneezed at
If 10,000,000 people play a game, and 1% of 1% create mods worth playing, that is 1,000 mods worth playing. Those are good numbers.
If 1% contribute in another way, that is 100,000 people, again good numbers.
You increase that ratio by community building efforts, not by negativity.sunshinenbrick wrote: I would never deny anyone making a living out of something they are good at and which brings value to others (assuming Beth allowed it).
What many long-term "authors" and "users" (or should we just say modders) alike have been arguing for is proper rights and protection for those who wish get into it. So they are not sold into developmental slavery and then when they make a mod it gets stolen, rehashed, sold and then pirated all over the internet. This is what happened. Bethesda offered a very poor deal that lured people with the possibility of quick cash gains... not forgetting that Beth and Val pocketed most of that money, for work they completed 4 years ago. That to me seems exploitative.shaithlis wrote: By: LP1
"So if you are a mod user, you can tell yourself that you are just as important to this community as a mod author. But you're not. "
It's this kind of comment here that did it for me. I know that I'm just a user. I don't mod for this game. I donated to my favorite mods this past payday. But after reading the above comment. I am through. I don't want to be part of a site that encourages that type of, for lack of a better word, racism, toward the users. Yes, with out authors, there would be no mods, but without users, there would be no use for authors.
My opinion, hate and flame if you want to, but thanks to idiots like LP1, I'm done with this forum.LP1 wrote: And you will be missed by exactly no one. No one will even notice. That is my point.
Users simply are not as important as the creators of mods. Mod creators can choose to make them or not, and soon they will again be able to choose whether they charge for them or not.sunshinenbrick wrote: May I point out that people will also have the choice to buy them or not.
I would love to see a McDonald's advert say: "You are unfit, overweight and we would be better off if you all just pissed off!"
I'm lovin' it
Meanwhile, no one will miss *you*, because all you've contributed is to make the Nexus a more negative place to be in.
People want to remember tragedies. People try to forget those who caused them. -
In response to post #24888079. #24888499, #24888584, #24888714, #24889009, #24889094, #24889294, #24889464, #24889519, #24889849, #24890714 are all replies on the same post.It's already petering out, thankfully, most of the extremists on both sides havw either quit, changed their minds, or stopped.freedom613 wrote: >Thread is about moving on.
>People are still bickering.
When will it end? Are we just in a cycle of arguing?WightMage wrote: *pops some popcorn*cads73 wrote: You are right. I was thinking that before I posted my... comment. In a way, this is my only time I will get my thoughts in a post, my 2 cents. I was being very careful not to sound like I am bickering, but rather communicate from a "consumer" perspective that is not being addressed. I just asked myself a question: what value do I expect when I pay for a MOD.freedom613 wrote: It ain't flame bait Wight. The community has been badly damaged, and in order to heal we just need to move on. As I said in my post on the other thread, where does this end? If Valve/Bethesda adds paid mods in what will happen? Another boycott. When they remove the paid workshop, the paid modders will boycott like they are doing right now.
This doesn't end if we keep bickering about the merits/faults of paywalling. If saying the community will tear itself apart if we keep arguing is controversial enough that it is considered flamebaiting, then this community is already dead and buried.
@Cads, we have over 8000 posts on paid mods all together on Nexus alone. Odds are you will be drowned out or what you said has already been said a few thousand posts earlier. As I said, we gain nothing and loose everything if we keep putting fuel on this fire.DCWillis wrote: The community will move on but it is going to take time and will not be the same for a long while. Betrayal can be forgiven but it is not soon forgotten.
Also I paid attention to the wording when this ended. The said they made a mistake by trying to implement this into an "established community" which means when the next TES comes out or Fallout 4 it will be a new community and they will put it in place immediately.
This is not over yet.thefinn wrote: Well I got to the debate late - I was doing other things - so I wanted to hear what people were saying and say something myself.
If you've moved on - fine, move on.freedom613 wrote: Point is, we need everyone to move on. If just one or two people move on, then that is nothing. Community is still tearing itself apart over this fiasco with no end in sight. What is the end goal? What will stop the cycle? The community doesn't win until we put down out pitchforks.sunshinenbrick wrote: Mine is in my shed for now. Call me paranoid :PWightMage wrote: @freedom613 I wasn't implying that it was flamebait. o.o The intention was to pop popcorn to watch the other threads turn on fire, but I suppose I should have explained better, sorry.DCWillis wrote: I have been a hardcore Skyrim fan and have logged 1500+ hrs over the years. Haven't played the game in a week. I bought Far Cry 3 through Origin, not Steam and have been playing it. Stopped working on my mods as well. I just stopped in to see if anything new had happened.
Every time I tried to turn the game on it was different somehow, tainted so to speak. Like a girlfriend that slept with your buddy. You want to forgive but don't know how. lolShadowmane01 wrote: It will peter out people are not instantly going to stop taking about it just because Dark0ne says so.
Though a few hold on, much to my chagrin. :/ -
In response to post #24873139. #24874159, #24874314, #24874474, #24874519, #24874634, #24874639, #24874729, #24874774, #24874924, #24874984, #24875019, #24875044, #24875074, #24875124, #24875219, #24875289, #24875334, #24875454, #24875484, #24875669, #24876774, #24876829, #24877709, #24877889, #24877969, #24878254, #24878299, #24878569, #24878604, #24878759, #24879069, #24879579, #24879589, #24882059, #24884249, #24885029, #24885084, #24885349, #24885354, #24885399, #24885969, #24885999, #24887819, #24887979, #24888049, #24888949 are all replies on the same post.@np11thefinn wrote: I doubt they will drop this.
They will do more research than smoking some doobies in the coffee lounge at valve and saying "You know what would be cool ?" then we'll see something similar coming up again in the future.
There's way too much money involved for this to go away.
Personally, if they'd just add a "donate" button and not try to "sell mods" that might go down better.Vesuvius1745 wrote: With the next TES game, I could see them charging for the Creation Kit, and then setting it so you have to "share" your mods on a specific website they control, and then charging people a flat-access rate to the website.
Oh, and I can see them releasing the next TES game even more incomplete than Skyrim. Release a barebones game, make money off it, then let the modders finish your game, and make money off of that too. I bet I've just given some pencil pusher at Bethesda a 3-inch erection.wulfharth wrote: That's called an alpha release, and that happens everyday.
Bethesda has always tried hard to keep everyone happy (except with the exclusive DLC period releases). They just wanted to give people who make mods a chance to do it for a living. Shame on them for creating jobs and stimulating the mod community. They should all kill themselves. Right? Should I make a sign protest mod about them offering opportunity?
How do I block this guy? The option isn't at the bottom of his posts.wulfharth wrote: Ha! I found out where to do it, but I can't block you Vesuvius1745 because you've never contributed a mod, so you aren't listed as an author.
So why again do you feel you have the right to have an opinion on what actual mod contributor's are allowed to do with their mods? You aren't even one of us.Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, my mistake. I didn't realize the corporation known as Bethesda was being altruistic, and just wanted to stimulate the economy while at the same time giving amateur mod authors their Big Break. You're not only a glass-is-half-full kind of guy, you're a glass-is-half-full when it's actually empty kind of guy.
Instead of trying to make a buck off of mod authors, they should concentrate on making sure the next TES release is stable and complete. Yes, game companies are releasing their games earlier and earlier, and frankly, many gamers are sick of paying to Beta test unfinished products.Vesuvius1745 wrote: Good question, wulth. As someone who paid for Skyrim, I have the same right as the 133,000+ other people who signed the petition given to Bethesda telling them what we thought of this pay-for system.
I suspect the pencil pusher who came up with this idea is probably shaking in his boots. Wondering if he will have a job next month. Maybe he's even trolling these forums to test the waters, and not liking what he is seeing.thefinn wrote: Well I am a pretty harsh critic of games, I think Skyrim is one of the best I've played in years.
There might've been some bugs at launch, but few are the games you'll find without them and frankly with the size of Skyrim they are to be expected.
I don't see how it was "incomplete".wulfharth wrote: @Vesuvius-Instead of telling super successful multi-million dollar corporations with giant and loyal fan bases how to run their businesses, you should go try and make a dungeon or create and add a custom 3D model. I'm sure you'll change your tune very quickly.
You have no frame of reference for what it means or takes to be a mod author. Stop telling everyone what to do or what they should do. You aren't qualified.thefinn wrote: The difference being that the question for you is "Can I still get free stuff?" while the question for modders is "Is this a system I find reasonable to work with?"
The only saving grace to me was the thought that perhaps I should start putting together my feminine walk mod again to be paid for, or to be the free alternative to the other mod of its' kind. It actually made me think this (for the very small mods I have done) it was in fact my first thought.
So it can indeed instill the impetus in modders to mod.
However, the drawbacks of the current idea are awful.
It leaves the door open for game companies to make mods "steam only" in the future for benefits to the bottom line for instance.wulfharth wrote: The official paid DLC is Steam only. Why not the smaller not official but sanctioned DLC? We always have the Nexus if modders want to choose to throw up an donate button to not get pressed and give free work to the sweet and loving community.thefinn wrote: You're missing the point.
They can make the game so that when it runs it only allows mods that steam downloaded.
And they would be...
1) In their rights to do so.
2) getting more profits by doing so and they are corporations you know?Reaper0021 wrote: thefinn is right in that regard. IF THEY WANTED to be tyrannical about it that is.thefinn wrote: And when have you known corporations not to be ?
DRM itself had huge backlash at the time... but here it is still.Reaper0021 wrote: I agree with you thefinn. I'll tell you one that isn't and I defy you to say otherwise: CDProjekt Red. But in all aspects of this you're 100% right.Vesuvius1745 wrote: Wulf, your ad hominem aside, I'm not going to post my resume because it's irrelevant. Every person who bought Skyrim (they are called customers) have an absolute right to tell Bethesda what they think of their business practices. It doesn't matter if not a single one of those 133,000 people who signed the petition never wrote a mod, or has not done something YOU think "qualifies" them to giver their opinion. They still get to give it.
Of course Bethesda is under no obligation to listen to their customers. In this case they did. They probably also realized what a Hiroshima-type disaster this was, and if they were smart, fired the individual(s) responsible for this abortion of creativity.wulfharth wrote: If Bethesda wanted to be tyrants, they probably wouldn't have out of pocketed to provide and update the creation kit. And that's just for the PC gamers mind you. That is a special gift just to us that is more valuable than any 10 mods on here. You should feel loved and have more faith in them.wulfharth wrote: Vesuvius-You are Bethesda's customer. Not mine. I don't want your made up resume. All I know is that you haven't posted a single mod. You aren't a modder. Why are you telling us what we can do with our work?Reaper0021 wrote: It's not about lack of love or faith. It's about common business practices. A business remains a business as long as it can "TURN A PROFIT" and when it can't no longer (ATARI, Commodore, SEGA, etc.) then it stops becoming a business and becomes a share holders nightmare. All of this is just theory talk...but in the back of my mind I remain cautious about what the future holds.thefinn wrote: Totally agree, if I were going to have love or faith (without going to church) it'd be in the Nexus, not some new system Valve has talked Bethesda into.Vesuvius1745 wrote: I, nor anybody else, is telling mod authors what they can or cannot do with their "work". As Bethesda's customers, we explained to them we did not want a pay-for paradigm for mods. We gave our opinion, which as customers we have every right to give. They didn't have to listen to their customers, but they did. Since Bethesda owns the Intellectual property rights to Skyrim, and mod authors sign their EULA accepting their contract, it is Bethesda who gets to tell mod authors what they can or cannot do with their derivative creations. If a mod author is upset by that, then they should take it up with Bethesda. Or mod for a game that allows paid-for mods. Whining about it here, or getting upset with the people who bought Skyrim and gave their opinion, is not going to be fruitful.Reaper0021 wrote: And to continue on this point by Vesuvius1745....when I give my $$$$ for anything in this world be it new tires, PC parts, cable T.V./internet, books, food, games, music, etc. I HAVE the right as a paying customer to offer my critique or displeasure or ANYTHING with what I paid for if it doesn't meet my expectations as a customer. I don't have to be a tire manufacturer to offer my opinion that I like Firestone better than the other brands. You make no sense man in your argument. You act as if we are indebted to Bethesda and I can assure you it's the other way around. Kudos given to Vesuvius1745.crashpilot wrote: @Wulfharth,
Since there is not that much of your work you have to worry about, I would say let us our opinion and we let you yours.Pauliwhop wrote: You don't have to be a doctor to sue for Malpractice. Try again.treota wrote: "All I know is that you haven't posted a single mod, so you are not a modder" - This is basically the same as telling a carpenter they aren't valid because they have never carved mahogany, who is to say that he has never contributed anything to any modding scene for any game ever created or even created content that he didn't feel like uploading.
More close to home telling a critic that their opinion is worthless because they have never done what they critique (which is pretty common).
I'm 99% sure that there are plenty of food critics for example that have never been professional chefs.thefinn wrote: The fact that your chair is made of wood, doesn't make you a carpenter.sunshinenbrick wrote: "An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing."
Nicholas Butlertreota wrote: The carpenter idea was based on the person having modded something at some point in their life which is probably (not always of course) the case if said person has a keen interest in modding.
Being a creator does not make your opinion more or less valid than your consumer. :)oldnotweak wrote: we need a block function so every mod author can block Vesuvius and people like himVesuvius1745 wrote: @Oldnottweak It would be easier to just take all your mods off the Nexus, otherwise you will have to block about aprox. 133,000+ people (the number of people who signed that petition given to Bethesda).
And since we are blocking people who think differently than us, then maybe the "Forever Free" modders will block YOU from all of their mods, and the programmers of ENB, SKSE, Wyre Bash, and every other utility you've benefited from can block your IP so you can no longer download their stuff.
It can be a giant block festival. Wouldn't that be fun?Ghatto wrote: Oh yeah that wouldn't go horribly wrong now would it?thefinn wrote: Being a creator doesn't make my opinion more valid than my consumer regarding the mod sure.
However, being the creator makes my opinion more valid than my consumer regarding the system by which I make (or not) money off my creation.
Otherwise we'd be looking at a society where we had no money at all.
Noone would ever want to pay for anything and that'd be it.
So obviously the people at say Mattel decide that they are gonna charge money for their s#*!.
Your opinion on that matter ... doesn't matter. Where there's money to be made - corporations go.
At this point paid modding will be coming in. There's little doubt of that.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2015-05-01-sooner-or-later-paid-for-mods-are-coming
The only question remains "how?" and "when?"
The system itself is important, and if people want to enter a discussion saying "there shouldn't be a system" they are just gonna be ignored by I'd have to say - the large majority of modders and likely valve too. Expect it.
From Gabe's comments he's aware of the fact they screwed up by using Skyrim as the entry point for this change in the platform on steam. This probably means there will be years before we see a Bethesda game take on paid modding. (Fallout IV or TES VI most likely).
The issue remains will it start to encroach on the nexus, will it stifle modding ?!
Will the word "modding" merely change meaning - like so many other things do over time (and usually not for the better).
For instance what happens if the Unofficial Skyrim Patch goes paid ?
HEAPS of other modders have to change their mods (Through TESVEdit) to encompass changes in USP each time Arthmoor updates it. Otherwise their mods overwrite his changes.
Do they have to pay for USP ? That seems like a fairly central issue too - dependencies.
There are still a lot of question for Bethesda imo.
I'm not sure if I'm for or against the whole idea.Ghatto wrote: I disagree. I don't see why my opinion shouldn't retain value simply because it criticises the system as a whole and makes clear my desire to go without it. I understand how it positions myself in the argument as 'either/or' rather than compromise but that's that. Yes it's a see-saw that goes both ways; government policy has been that decisive for generations and we could all benefit on compromise there, but unfortunately that still doesn't work because it then creates a new 'either/or' which is instead a 'enjoy compromise/suffer compromise'.Tyerial12 wrote: problem is we know its comming but mod authors better be aware pirates will come as well.
Someone will buy your mod then release it on free sites anonomsly and bam free modWightMage wrote: Have we really come to this?treota wrote: @thefinn
I agree with pretty much everything there, however the consumer does vastly dictate the payment platform. If consumers disagree with the way said creators make money then they will not spend their money there and the creator will have no choice but to try a different way of making money. (for the record I totally agree paid mods are here to stay, nothing to be done about it now)
Which is where the somewhat wrong saying comes from "the customer is always right". (yeah I hate that crap too, worked in retail for a few years and that line just grinds the gears) It is true in the sense that if the customer disagrees then your job and livelihood is down the drain.
Any opinion is the same value as any other opinion, it's the person who decides which opinions are more or less valid to them personally.wulfharth wrote: @crashpilot- Good morning. I had a lot more up, but I pulled them down because the community showed how appreciative it is. I'm re-working most of it to release when paid mods come back. Which will probably be with TES6. If you check the credits in the top 20 file "Immersive Weapons", you will see that I made that entire dragonbone weapon set. You've likely been using my weapons for years.
I've pulled everything down. The more our community shows it's true colors, the more mod authors will follow suit.Tyerial12 wrote: @wulfharth lol oh well then guess we dont see your mods for free it dont bother me one bit.. Ill give my money to non chilish mod authorsnp11 wrote: @wulfharth Good PR there, I'd love to see how many people who've actually seen you post will buy these fabled mods.
People, before you start selling things, you should really take some business, marketing or even psychology classes. Addressing potential customers like that and expecting your business to flourish... Good luck with that.Tanesis12 wrote: @ Vesuvius1745 I think that paid mods will be on the next Beth game, whether TES or FO. I don't think however it will imact quality as that would be a second pr disaster that Beth don't need.
@ thefinn "They can make the game so that when it runs it only allows mods that steam downloaded."
I think that Beth would want more control over modding in general if theres money involved. If only 1 site was allowed to run paid mods then mod authors would obviously prefere that site if they directly benefitted (I think?).
Incorporation of real life monies will change the way people use mods drasitcally and alter the relationship between mod author and mod consumer, the later who is now a customer (who should be able to expect certain consumer rights but thats a different issue). I can't help but feel that when, rather than if, mods become paid the only real winners will be Beth & Valve.
Also good posts thefinn, nicely insightful.3AMt wrote: Horse armors, swords and hats for 1.99 each for everyone. Yeah have fun selling mods.Brasscatcher wrote: I do try to avoid name calling, but I will call stupid behavior what it is. Most of this thread is full of stupid. Go ahead, accept Bethesda's offer. I bet every single one of you won't see a single bit of useful profit from anything you create. If you think trash-talking or belittling part of the community, or attempting to invalidate the opinions of one part of the community will net you anything, you are incorrect.
Stop being stupid. Be productive instead.CaladanAnduril wrote: Wulfharth
You should toughen your emotional "skin" if you want to stay in the modders community.
People like vesuvius will ALWAYS have DEMANDS, stupid and irrelevant for you.
Because THAT is what he want to smoke screen behind his fancy words and pseudo arguments, his pitiful demands.
Hi have paid for Skyrim game? ... good for him.
But he HAD NOT paid for YOUR or ANYONE mod, he could comment as long as he wish about Skyrim but when talking about your mods, your acts and your decisions, he's pure and simple hypocrite.
Again, if you paid for Skyrim
fru1tcak3s wrote: > charging for the Creation Kit
Open source creation kit :Pwulfharth wrote: I don't need to have good PR with people who think they deserve everything for free. That's a pretty crappy customer base to build.
I'm moving on to another mod community. This one will be dead fairly soon. Be well all. I wish you all the luck in the world.Brasscatcher wrote: Well...bye! :)thefinn wrote: Yeah tend to agree, I think TB/Dark0ne/Brumbek say it best here:
If you're just downloading and not contributing, not a forum user, not even hitting the endorse button - then who cares what your opinion is? It's only going to be the usual kinds of self-serving entitled crap that we see everywhere else on the net.np11 wrote: @wulfharth How crappy the customer base is is irrelevant. You want their money and you want to make a profit. That's all a business needs to know. If your customers are becoming a huge bother, you can deny them services, but you need to do so as politely as possible. The moment you start bickering and being aggressive to your customers, you've lost the game. Look at Valve and Bethesda's responses for god's sake. You'll get a feel of what a professional response should be like.
Well, have fun and good luck then.
As someone who works in customer service and has their own business on the side, I could not agree more. -
In response to post #24888079. #24888499, #24888584, #24888714, #24889009, #24889094, #24889294, #24889464 are all replies on the same post.@freedom613 I wasn't implying that it was flamebait. o.o The intention was to pop popcorn to watch the other threads turn on fire, but I suppose I should have explained better, sorry.freedom613 wrote: >Thread is about moving on.
>People are still bickering.
When will it end? Are we just in a cycle of arguing?WightMage wrote: *pops some popcorn*cads73 wrote: You are right. I was thinking that before I posted my... comment. In a way, this is my only time I will get my thoughts in a post, my 2 cents. I was being very careful not to sound like I am bickering, but rather communicate from a "consumer" perspective that is not being addressed. I just asked myself a question: what value do I expect when I pay for a MOD.freedom613 wrote: It ain't flame bait Wight. The community has been badly damaged, and in order to heal we just need to move on. As I said in my post on the other thread, where does this end? If Valve/Bethesda adds paid mods in what will happen? Another boycott. When they remove the paid workshop, the paid modders will boycott like they are doing right now.
This doesn't end if we keep bickering about the merits/faults of paywalling. If saying the community will tear itself apart if we keep arguing is controversial enough that it is considered flamebaiting, then this community is already dead and buried.
@Cads, we have over 8000 posts on paid mods all together on Nexus alone. Odds are you will be drowned out or what you said has already been said a few thousand posts earlier. As I said, we gain nothing and loose everything if we keep putting fuel on this fire.DCWillis wrote: The community will move on but it is going to take time and will not be the same for a long while. Betrayal can be forgiven but it is not soon forgotten.
Also I paid attention to the wording when this ended. The said they made a mistake by trying to implement this into an "established community" which means when the next TES comes out or Fallout 4 it will be a new community and they will put it in place immediately.
This is not over yet.thefinn wrote: Well I got to the debate late - I was doing other things - so I wanted to hear what people were saying and say something myself.
If you've moved on - fine, move on.freedom613 wrote: Point is, we need everyone to move on. If just one or two people move on, then that is nothing. Community is still tearing itself apart over this fiasco with no end in sight. What is the end goal? What will stop the cycle? The community doesn't win until we put down out pitchforks.sunshinenbrick wrote: Mine is in my shed for now. Call me paranoid :P -
Please don't donate just 1$.
Paypall takes away 0.4$ per transaction and they also keep 0.5% of the full transaction, nothing can be done about that 0.5%, but if you only donate 1$ then the mod author only gets 0.55$.
So that's almost a 50% loss for 1$, you should at least give 3$ because then the mod author gets 2.5$, going below 3$ is just silly.
Imo Nexus should make this clear because its not "100% goes to mod authors", the lower you go with the donation the less % the author gets, and lately Ive been getting nothing but 1$ donations...
Don't get me wrong, its nice to see people donate, but some knowledge about the real % would go a long way.
That author would get nothing then, in fact the person donating one penny would have to spend 0.42$ just to make that 1 penny transaction even possible, lol.If each person donated just a single penny, that author would have earned $1000.
Ugh, seriously? Already spent around $30-40 in donations over the past week- one of those guys had a $1. Now I'll need to figure out who they were so I can add more to their tip bucket.
On the subject of how much to donate, imo it depends on the level of time it took to build the mod and how important it is to your mod order. Good examples: XPMS abd XPMSE, and Frostfall.
Both of these warrant anywhere from 5-10 in my book.
-
In response to post #24859024. #24859239, #24860709, #24861914, #24870839, #24875649, #24877069, #24877239, #24877524, #24886889 are all replies on the same post.Good post.wulfharth wrote: Sometimes an idea once presented will persist as a part of the public consciousness forever. Finding out that Bethesda is in favor of individuals being paid to create content that adds life to their games will cause a massive change in the entire modding community.
Expect to see professional DLC creating studios in the future. Modders will soon have an opportunity to mod full-time and make a living from it. I wouldn't be surprised if these studios became sub-studios of Bethesda someday.
The downside is that the most professional and biggest mods will be paid mods (much like now). The upside is that there will be more DLC quality mods available and probably with additional support from Bethesda in terms of rigging files and code.
I have never failed to buy a mod for a TES game since Morrowind, and I've considered them all money well spent. I really look forward to the prospect of more of that type of content becoming available. The sooner this site adapts to this possibility, the better it will be able to stay a foundation piece of this community.pokenar wrote: I was not actually one of those against paid mods, I just didn't like the execution. there were many many many issues with how bethesda and valve did it.wulfharth wrote: Those percentages are pretty standard for a situation like that. If you read the Beth Blog, they will explain it. Valve was even going to share some of their cut with the Nexus.
Also, I think it's sad that people attacked modders who were trying to exercise an opportunity that was given to them. Nothing was taken away, an option was added for the modder.
It's old news now, but it's a sad day for artistic freedom. People think they don't have to pay for art because the artist enjoys their work. That mentality needs to change if modding is to thrive and reach it's true potential.welikedustybetter wrote: Modding is different than art in many ways. There are many aspects to consider. Mods can be buggy or incompatible with each other or with your game or system. This is exacerbated by the bugs or stability issues native to the game. Then there's the fact that many mods are dependent upon other mods. Then there are modders resources and frameworks. Would there then also be royalty fees? A paid mods system would be a legal nightmare.
To sum up my opinion on this, I think modders provide a very valuable service to these games, and they should get paid for it. However, I think a donation system is much more suited for this. Someone else made a good long post on it in a previous Nexus article, so I won't bother, but I think the current system could use some tweaks that remind users that they can donate to the mod author, and perhaps reward those that do.wulfharth wrote: Donation systems do not work. People mostly don't bother to endorse even to the best of the best mods. Do you really think they will take the time to give out of the kindness of their hearts? Historically on this site, no. They don't understand how long it takes to add a simple model or build a dungeon.
Modding requires creativity and is undeniably Art. That's why game development is taught at art academies in America.
If everyone gave one penny to each mod they use right now, Some people could quite their jobs and mod full time. That means more mods, more updates, and more compatibility patches. Mod theft and asset theft is easy to control with the reporting system we already have in place. Creators of buggy mods will not be endorsed and will not receive repeat business.thefinn wrote: Yeah the percentages really were a slap in the face - even if it really was just a perception thing.
If it had been an even spread of 33% each, it might've been better.
However, giving the modder 25% of the take, while the other 2 parties take the lions share, kind of says "You are the least important part of this process." doesn't it ?
It certainly gave me that perception of their views.muter3456 wrote: " Donations Systems do not work "
Yea. That's why Tarn Adams, a full on game developer, artists, even twitch streamers DEFINITELY don't make their money off donations. Definitely don't.Vesuvius1745 wrote: The modding community has been doing just fine for over a decade. If ain't broke, don't fix it.
But if you want to start your own mod-studio or whatnot, and sell your DLC to Bethesda or whatever, good luck with that :)treota wrote: "Some people could quit their jobs and mod full time" - I think you nailed it there. SOME people could mod full time.
It is very unlikely to create an environment where any modder can put the effort in and make a living off it, what is significantly more likely is that SOME modders who either get lucky or have more support will be able to make a meager living off their work and most modders will have to do exactly the same as they always have.
Also with the introduction of money into the system you will cull a large portion of your audience, which personally I would say leads to less mods being created. Evidence? Name a game that has over 12,000 DLC and customers willing to pay for it (seriously I'm curious if one exists, closest I can think of is Borderlands or Dawn of War 2).
To be optimistic lets say the average customer that pays for the game (note that the base game is not free here) is also willing to buy 20 mods, 10 of those mods are most likely to be the 'essential' mods that are always the same, so 10 mod makers/studios can make a small profit.
The other 10 are just random items spread between the modding community as a whole and as such are probably not providing the authors with any real profit. Please note that if the next TES game is FREE with paid modding it might be a different story.Boyninja616 wrote: It's nice that you have the disposable income to be able to pay for them. Some of us can merely afford the original game.
And yet, the team behind Beyond Skyrim have said, officially, that even if they could charge for their mod, they wouldn't. They can't due to license limitations on some of the resources they're using, but the meat of the matter remains the same. I do not know of any big and/or professional mods that charge for their download. Perhaps you could enlighten me? Searching for paid mods yields results like this page.
You've said that money will attract "Talent" and "Quality". I'll go into why I think that's false later, but I don't know if you've noticed, the best mods (The best for a reason - Adding good quality or large amounts of new content) on the Nexus were all developed and released for free (As well as every single other one). A lot of modder's resources were also released for free.
The Nexus has been around since 2003. In those 12 years I doubt anyone, particularly in the early years, had any idea that something like this debacle would come to fruition. Modders slaved away with the Development Kit and other relevant programs to bring their fellow players something to enjoy. It was a labour of love; Even you contributed your Dragonbone weapons set to Immersive Weapons, a free mod.
Yet, as soon as the prospect of making money was introduced, several modders (Yourself included) metaphorically jumped for joy. As soon as the community showed what they thought about the idea, you as a group became bitter and resentful. You had no idea how much you were going to make from your creations (You can't use the few examples we have as the benchmark) and it doesn't make sense to attack and alienate the entire community (Not just the whingers) over what could be a few hundred $.
Don't even get me started on the legal wranglings (Particularly when it comes to modder's resources) and adhering to consumer law in every country your mod is downloaded in (Something that Steam itself doesn't actually do).
I will freely admit that I don't make mods myself, and that I have only endorsed 5 files in my 7 years here. The only reason I didn't donate was because, like many here, I had no idea you could.
I do, however, have a YouTube channel. It is admittedly small, but the work that goes into creating, editing and processing the content is no less daunting and time-consuming. I do it as a hobby, for other people's entertainment in my spare time. That is my motivation, even though I know that view counts won't even get in to triple figures. I would never force people to pay to watch my videos (Hell, I don't even advertise anywhere). If my channel were to get bigger, than I would use a platform like Patreon to allow people to donate, but I wouldn't hold it against them if they'd rather keep their money to themselves.
I just don't see why some modders have taken such a hostile attitude to this whole fiasco. I'm not on the side of the community; Some of the vitriol was sickening, but I'm not on the side of the modders who've shut the door on everyone either. -
In response to post #24870864. #24885899, #24887074, #24887189 are all replies on the same post.Conspiracy Theory: What if this was an elaborate scheme to get people to donate more, buy more premium memberships, and weed out the chaff?Harbringe wrote:
Of all the things said in the TotalBiscuit interview done by Brumbek and Dark0ne that I think best speaks to what happened last weekend was that normal subscriptions run from between 3000 - 6000 per day , yet on Saturday of last week it was over 13000 . I would even imagine Dark0ne if he cared to share the data could tell us there was a mini spike in premiun memberships and with the flood of people coming in it tells us 3 things . 1) Some of these people were so panicked that they thought the only way they could fix it was by buying a premiun membership (notice how many people had premiun memberships yet were making their first post ever) 2) alot of them just screamed and freaked out (notice how many people sreaming that had like a very short post count , again some of them their very first post) 3) all of this was coming down on modders making them feel the community didn't support them or appreciate them . Simple fact is our community got invaded last week because many didn't know where else to go when it comes to where mods come from .
Nexus: 1) A connection or series of connections linking two or more things:the nexus between industry and political power
2) A connected group or series: a nexus of ideas
3)A central or focal point: the nexus of any government in this country is No. 10
I would be very interested in the statistics of subscription to the site and premiun member increase if one . Think that would tell us alot about how much of a focal point we were , because I dont think what happened is indicative of this community.
Brasscatcher wrote: This is a five-star post, sir. You raise several salient points, I too would be interested in seeing the data. Heck, I know my own "traffic" increased exponentially over this weekend.
What can I say, I'm normally not very chatty. :)sunshinenbrick wrote: The more I read and think about this, the more I start realising... it was a very crafty plan.Brasscatcher wrote: @sunshinen Right? One of the dangers of light-speed communications. You can transmit data rapidly..but correct interpretation takes much much longer. -
In response to post #24888079.*pops some popcorn*freedom613 wrote: >Thread is about moving on.
>People are still bickering. -
In response to post #24871339. #24886114, #24887249, #24887719 are all replies on the same post.I'm afraid that while I understand your actions, they are a bit extreme for my taste. The us versus them mentality comes from users of all sides, and I believe we do no one favors for "scorching the earth." In the case of SMIM and SkyUI for instancw, it is worth noting that Brumbek and Schlangster respectfully are trying to make amends with the community- Brumbek is re-releasing his mod and left said apology on the mod description page, and Schlangster of SkyUI has stated that he "is not a sore loser" and will release SkyUI 5.0 here after the next SKSE update.phantompally76 wrote: There will be no sweeping the past couple of weeks under the rug. Too much has happened; too much as been said. Too many true colors have been shown.
This controversy has exposed a rift that has existed between mod authors and mod users for years. The nature of the relationship between those entities has changed forever. Mutual trust, appreciation and respect are gone. Mod authors used this controversy as an excuse to lash out at mod users for not being appreciative enough (with their wallets) over the years, and for not supporting the monetization of amateur modding. And mod users used it as an excuse to lash out at mod authors who don't recognize mod users as being an equally important factor in the modding community, and for trivializing users' thankfulness and gratitude or authors' efforts because it wasn't in the form of a check.
No, this tale is not complete, and in the end, no one "won" anything. We lost some really good mod authors. On the other hand, we lost some really arrogant, selfish and belligerent mod authors as well. We also lost several dedicated and appreciative mod users, and yes, we lost some unrepentant sociopaths who weren't here to argue for any cause, but instead to foment strife and ill will.
But what did we gain? New blood? New modders to replace the old? I'm not so sure that anyone who has been living under a rock for the past 4 years and has never played Skyrim is going to pick it up as a result of this fiasco. Will mod users who have never even tried to make a mod before step up and replace the casualties? In a toxic environment where mod users are lashing out at the most trivial issues with mods, and mod authors are lashing out at the most trivial criticisms, would any sane individual want to get involved in this community? I guess we'll find out.
My own personal modding habits are definitely changing. Moving forward, I won't be using any mods that are dependent upon SkyUI (not only because they were going to charge for the latest version, but because of the arrogant, taunting, condescending manner in which SkyUI's devs addressed the entire community; proponents AND opponents of paid modding alike), so there goes 90+% of the mods out there. And that's ok. I was getting really fed up with script-intensive mods causing save bloat and CTDs anyway. And today I remembered that I only ever used SkyUI because I was compelled to, and that I actually preferred the vanilla menus all along.
So moving forward, my modding is probably going to be restricted to texture replacers, and that's ok, too. It will be nice to not have to worry about whether a mod is going to glitch the game or make it unplayable. I've actually been having fun the past day or two loading up on mods that replace SMIM; mods I would have otherwise never even looked for, and that might finally get their fair shake in the spotlight. That, at least, may be ONE positive that comes out of this ordeal.Brasscatcher wrote: Unfortunate, but very very true, man. I just rushed my last save to endgame because I plan on flushing the deck. I will not say that I didn't enjoy seeing the artistry or the contributions made by some of the mods I used on this run; as a narrative-oriented player, one of the things I enjoy about modding a game is how we each can alter the narrative for each other's experience of the game...but I'm definitely going to have to reassess my posture on a few things going forward.GrimCreation wrote: I'd be inclined to agree with some of your points in regards to all lashing out on all sides which took place in this paid mod mess, though I do find your take a bit extreme for my tastes.
Further more I do believe you're generalizing a bit too much then what I'd think would be reasonably fair. The community is huge both in regards to mod creators and users.
Is it really fair to lump bulk of each respective group into the 2 major fighting sides?
Also just because this event was horrible train wreck doesn't mean future will be so grim. People can learn from their mistakes and make good efforts not to repeat them.
However you are entitled to your own views and as fairly rational person I shall respect that even if I don't agree with all of it.sunshinenbrick wrote: I feel a little self-conscious linking my own post but it is part of discussion that is blooming here, one that we must not forget. Some here have read parts of this thread before and I promise this will be my last reference to it as I feel I have taken it as far as I can really.
From the Topic: 'Is the word "user" negative?
My final post:
Thanks for the responses! I would have to agree there never can be anything wrong with the word "user" as word in its own right, and maybe all this simply has not been an issue that has entered people's minds till now, as the boat had not yet been rocked.
My justification for asking the question in the first place, which has garnered a few views since this happened, was from the incisive approach that the, shall we say far right and far left, seemed to take on the many issues, with a strong sense of immediate "us vs. them" mentality. I (and maybe a few others) would like to try and understand these issues and allow others to contribute to the discussion. This is not the conclusive chapter, as it seems common sense that when the next wave of potential changes come, a number of the 9 million people from BOTH "camps" may, in the heat of the moment, feel misrepresented or unappreciated and therefore feel threatened and lash out, like ANY HUMAN would.
Interestingly on the subject of self worth, I tried to donate to a member yesterday for what I thought was a commendable effort in helping the community. The member said, but I have no mods of my own, and was genuinely shocked at the idea of why someone would want to donate to them.
I just wanted to throw the doors open as to why exactly we all are here, as for me it is most certainly not just about downloading mods, yet I also, most certainly, do not fall in to the mod "author" camp. As a Graphic Designer/Lecturer, and an aspiring, experimental "modder", troubleshooter, and veteran game emulation enthusiast, I feel I fall somewhere in the middle of all this, as do perhaps the vast majority of people I have had the pleasure to become acquainted with over the years.
I only hope for everyone's own sake we can find a cohesion so we can all exist together and not take each other for granted. Ok, its cliche, but 'united we stand, divided we fall'
Thanks for reading.
SNB
Link to discussion, please add your opinions:
http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2810229-is-the-word-user-negative/
Certainly they were in error earlier in the conflict, but does it not mean anything that they're trying to work with us instead of casting us off, like others already have? And what so we gain from spitting upon their apologies like that?
It is everyone's own decision and right to make their mods compatible with theirs or not, but I don't think we will really fix our community until we can forgive those who ask for forgiveness. And I may suffer from foot in mouth somewhere down the line but, come on man. The only ones holding back the Nexus' growth is us. Few things are inevitable if people are just willing to try. -
A personal favorite: http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/47795/?
Disclaimer: You'll have to.... clean it out a bit before you can relocate your followers and children, unless you want them scared for their lives each and every day.
-
In response to post #24878574. #24878624 is also a reply to the same post....and to be fair, he was one of the few modders who apologized for his mistakes, and the way he reacted.DCWillis wrote: I would like to vent for a moment if I may. Chesko with his Arissa mod has upset me a little. First he abandoned the mod and let someone else take care of it. Then he comes back about a month before the paid mod announcement, but he had prior knowledge. He automatically had big plans because he knew it would go paid and jumped on the wagon. But once everyone spoke up and he could not make money he pulled his mods and went back into hiding.
This is the one and only time I wish the game had co op because I would like to take him to the throat of the world and demonstrate a shout I learned.Vesuvius1745 wrote: I feel ya, but it is his right to take his marbles and run home. -
In response to post #24873139. #24874159, #24874314, #24874474, #24874519, #24874634, #24874639, #24874729, #24874774, #24874924, #24874984, #24875019, #24875044, #24875074, #24875124, #24875219, #24875289, #24875334, #24875454, #24875484, #24875669, #24876774, #24876829, #24877709, #24877889, #24877969, #24878254, #24878299, #24878569, #24878604, #24878759, #24879069, #24879579 are all replies on the same post.Have we really come to this?thefinn wrote: I doubt they will drop this.
They will do more research than smoking some doobies in the coffee lounge at valve and saying "You know what would be cool ?" then we'll see something similar coming up again in the future.
There's way too much money involved for this to go away.
Personally, if they'd just add a "donate" button and not try to "sell mods" that might go down better.Vesuvius1745 wrote: With the next TES game, I could see them charging for the Creation Kit, and then setting it so you have to "share" your mods on a specific website they control, and then charging people a flat-access rate to the website.
Oh, and I can see them releasing the next TES game even more incomplete than Skyrim. Release a barebones game, make money off it, then let the modders finish your game, and make money off of that too. I bet I've just given some pencil pusher at Bethesda a 3-inch erection.wulfharth wrote: That's called an alpha release, and that happens everyday.
Bethesda has always tried hard to keep everyone happy (except with the exclusive DLC period releases). They just wanted to give people who make mods a chance to do it for a living. Shame on them for creating jobs and stimulating the mod community. They should all kill themselves. Right? Should I make a sign protest mod about them offering opportunity?
How do I block this guy? The option isn't at the bottom of his posts.wulfharth wrote: Ha! I found out where to do it, but I can't block you Vesuvius1745 because you've never contributed a mod, so you aren't listed as an author.
So why again do you feel you have the right to have an opinion on what actual mod contributor's are allowed to do with their mods? You aren't even one of us.Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, my mistake. I didn't realize the corporation known as Bethesda was being altruistic, and just wanted to stimulate the economy while at the same time giving amateur mod authors their Big Break. You're not only a glass-is-half-full kind of guy, you're a glass-is-half-full when it's actually empty kind of guy.
Instead of trying to make a buck off of mod authors, they should concentrate on making sure the next TES release is stable and complete. Yes, game companies are releasing their games earlier and earlier, and frankly, many gamers are sick of paying to Beta test unfinished products.Vesuvius1745 wrote: Good question, wulth. As someone who paid for Skyrim, I have the same right as the 133,000+ other people who signed the petition given to Bethesda telling them what we thought of this pay-for system.
I suspect the pencil pusher who came up with this idea is probably shaking in his boots. Wondering if he will have a job next month. Maybe he's even trolling these forums to test the waters, and not liking what he is seeing.thefinn wrote: Well I am a pretty harsh critic of games, I think Skyrim is one of the best I've played in years.
There might've been some bugs at launch, but few are the games you'll find without them and frankly with the size of Skyrim they are to be expected.
I don't see how it was "incomplete".wulfharth wrote: @Vesuvius-Instead of telling super successful multi-million dollar corporations with giant and loyal fan bases how to run their businesses, you should go try and make a dungeon or create and add a custom 3D model. I'm sure you'll change your tune very quickly.
You have no frame of reference for what it means or takes to be a mod author. Stop telling everyone what to do or what they should do. You aren't qualified.thefinn wrote: The difference being that the question for you is "Can I still get free stuff?" while the question for modders is "Is this a system I find reasonable to work with?"
The only saving grace to me was the thought that perhaps I should start putting together my feminine walk mod again to be paid for, or to be the free alternative to the other mod of its' kind. It actually made me think this (for the very small mods I have done) it was in fact my first thought.
So it can indeed instill the impetus in modders to mod.
However, the drawbacks of the current idea are awful.
It leaves the door open for game companies to make mods "steam only" in the future for benefits to the bottom line for instance.wulfharth wrote: The official paid DLC is Steam only. Why not the smaller not official but sanctioned DLC? We always have the Nexus if modders want to choose to throw up an donate button to not get pressed and give free work to the sweet and loving community.thefinn wrote: You're missing the point.
They can make the game so that when it runs it only allows mods that steam downloaded.
And they would be...
1) In their rights to do so.
2) getting more profits by doing so and they are corporations you know?Reaper0021 wrote: thefinn is right in that regard. IF THEY WANTED to be tyrannical about it that is.thefinn wrote: And when have you known corporations not to be ?
DRM itself had huge backlash at the time... but here it is still.Reaper0021 wrote: I agree with you thefinn. I'll tell you one that isn't and I defy you to say otherwise: CDProjekt Red. But in all aspects of this you're 100% right.Vesuvius1745 wrote: Wulf, your ad hominem aside, I'm not going to post my resume because it's irrelevant. Every person who bought Skyrim (they are called customers) have an absolute right to tell Bethesda what they think of their business practices. It doesn't matter if not a single one of those 133,000 people who signed the petition never wrote a mod, or has not done something YOU think "qualifies" them to giver their opinion. They still get to give it.
Of course Bethesda is under no obligation to listen to their customers. In this case they did. They probably also realized what a Hiroshima-type disaster this was, and if they were smart, fired the individual(s) responsible for this abortion of creativity.wulfharth wrote: If Bethesda wanted to be tyrants, they probably wouldn't have out of pocketed to provide and update the creation kit. And that's just for the PC gamers mind you. That is a special gift just to us that is more valuable than any 10 mods on here. You should feel loved and have more faith in them.wulfharth wrote: Vesuvius-You are Bethesda's customer. Not mine. I don't want your made up resume. All I know is that you haven't posted a single mod. You aren't a modder. Why are you telling us what we can do with our work?Reaper0021 wrote: It's not about lack of love or faith. It's about common business practices. A business remains a business as long as it can "TURN A PROFIT" and when it can't no longer (ATARI, Commodore, SEGA, etc.) then it stops becoming a business and becomes a share holders nightmare. All of this is just theory talk...but in the back of my mind I remain cautious about what the future holds.thefinn wrote: Totally agree, if I were going to have love or faith (without going to church) it'd be in the Nexus, not some new system Valve has talked Bethesda into.Vesuvius1745 wrote: I, nor anybody else, is telling mod authors what they can or cannot do with their "work". As Bethesda's customers, we explained to them we did not want a pay-for paradigm for mods. We gave our opinion, which as customers we have every right to give. They didn't have to listen to their customers, but they did. Since Bethesda owns the Intellectual property rights to Skyrim, and mod authors sign their EULA accepting their contract, it is Bethesda who gets to tell mod authors what they can or cannot do with their derivative creations. If a mod author is upset by that, then they should take it up with Bethesda. Or mod for a game that allows paid-for mods. Whining about it here, or getting upset with the people who bought Skyrim and gave their opinion, is not going to be fruitful.Reaper0021 wrote: And to continue on this point by Vesuvius1745....when I give my $$$$ for anything in this world be it new tires, PC parts, cable T.V./internet, books, food, games, music, etc. I HAVE the right as a paying customer to offer my critique or displeasure or ANYTHING with what I paid for if it doesn't meet my expectations as a customer. I don't have to be a tire manufacturer to offer my opinion that I like Firestone better than the other brands. You make no sense man in your argument. You act as if we are indebted to Bethesda and I can assure you it's the other way around. Kudos given to Vesuvius1745.crashpilot wrote: @Wulfharth,
Since there is not that much of your work you have to worry about, I would say let us our opinion and we let you yours.Pauliwhop wrote: You don't have to be a doctor to sue for Malpractice. Try again.treota wrote: "All I know is that you haven't posted a single mod, so you are not a modder" - This is basically the same as telling a carpenter they aren't valid because they have never carved mahogany, who is to say that he has never contributed anything to any modding scene for any game ever created or even created content that he didn't feel like uploading.
More close to home telling a critic that their opinion is worthless because they have never done what they critique (which is pretty common).
I'm 99% sure that there are plenty of food critics for example that have never been professional chefs.thefinn wrote: The fact that your chair is made of wood, doesn't make you a carpenter.sunshinenbrick wrote: "An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing."
Nicholas Butlertreota wrote: The carpenter idea was based on the person having modded something at some point in their life which is probably (not always of course) the case if said person has a keen interest in modding.
Being a creator does not make your opinion more or less valid than your consumer. :)oldnotweak wrote: we need a block function so every mod author can block Vesuvius and people like himVesuvius1745 wrote: @Oldnottweak It would be easier to just take all your mods off the Nexus, otherwise you will have to block about aprox. 133,000+ people (the number of people who signed that petition given to Bethesda).
And since we are blocking people who think differently than us, then maybe the "Forever Free" modders will block YOU from all of their mods, and the programmers of ENB, SKSE, Wyre Bash, and every other utility you've benefited from can block your IP so you can no longer download their stuff.
It can be a giant block festival. Wouldn't that be fun?Ghatto wrote: Oh yeah that wouldn't go horribly wrong now would it?thefinn wrote: Being a creator doesn't make my opinion more valid than my consumer regarding the mod sure.
However, being the creator makes my opinion more valid than my consumer regarding the system by which I make (or not) money off my creation.
Otherwise we'd be looking at a society where we had no money at all.
Noone would ever want to pay for anything and that'd be it.
So obviously the people at say Mattel decide that they are gonna charge money for their s#*!.
Your opinion on that matter ... doesn't matter. Where there's money to be made - corporations go.
At this point paid modding will be coming in. There's little doubt of that.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2015-05-01-sooner-or-later-paid-for-mods-are-coming
The only question remains "how?" and "when?"
The system itself is important, and if people want to enter a discussion saying "there shouldn't be a system" they are just gonna be ignored by I'd have to say - the large majority of modders and likely valve too. Expect it.
From Gabe's comments he's aware of the fact they screwed up by using Skyrim as the entry point for this change in the platform on steam. This probably means there will be years before we see a Bethesda game take on paid modding. (Fallout IV or TES VI most likely).
The issue remains will it start to encroach on the nexus, will it stifle modding ?!
Will the word "modding" merely change meaning - like so many other things do over time (and usually not for the better).
For instance what happens if the Unofficial Skyrim Patch goes paid ?
HEAPS of other modders have to change their mods (Through TESVEdit) to encompass changes in USP each time Arthmoor updates it. Otherwise their mods overwrite his changes.
Do they have to pay for USP ? That seems like a fairly central issue too - dependencies.
There are still a lot of question for Bethesda imo.
I'm not sure if I'm for or against the whole idea.Ghatto wrote: I disagree. I don't see why my opinion shouldn't retain value simply because it criticises the system as a whole and makes clear my desire to go without it. I understand how it positions myself in the argument as 'either/or' rather than compromise but that's that. Yes it's a see-saw that goes both ways; government policy has been that decisive for generations and we could all benefit on compromise there, but unfortunately that still doesn't work because it then creates a new 'either/or' which is instead a 'enjoy compromise/suffer compromise'.Tyerial12 wrote: problem is we know its comming but mod authors better be aware pirates will come as well.
Someone will buy your mod then release it on free sites anonomsly and bam free mod -
In response to post #24874954.God rest Nimoy's soul.Reaper0021 wrote: This whole ordeal has infused me with more respect for Mod maker's as well as Mod users. As you can see I re-subbed my membership on the "Nexus" and am a Premium member. Now, I'm going through all 177 of my installed mods/enb's and starting to donate to authors what I can afford too. It will take me approx. 5 months to get them all squared away, but without mods and Robin and the mod authors and users AND the "Nexus"....games that I play would have been shelved/sold (my box copies of games like NWN 1 and 2, etc.)/deleted long ago. I've commented during this debate and mostly have met with intelligent members and counter points and people who are just down right mean and nasty and stuck in "Conspiracy Theories". It all made me sick trying to intelligently communicate the facts. I say we drop it all and just.....in the words of my favorite Vulcan "Live long and Prosper."
Welcome back to the community, friend. -
In response to post #24871504. #24871889, #24872029, #24872299, #24872914, #24873159, #24873254, #24873374, #24873424, #24873614, #24873674, #24873684, #24875884, #24876184, #24876264 are all replies on the same post....which frankly, was the largest (and most BS) conspiracy theory to wreck through the Nexus community over the past week.darkslayer666 wrote: Dark0ne:
Forgive my ignorance on this topic but; Why doesn't Nexus help the modders more?
As it stands endorsements don't really do anything, other than boost ego. I'd like some Nexus revenue to go to modders... 1000 endorsements for $100?
I don't know, like I said, how much does Nexus generate income, but with it's size I'd wager quite a lot since there's a big traffic here. I mean you got the dough for managers but not for your $$$ generators? Priorities man.
Perhaps increase ad's on Nexus to support modders? People will also be more inclined to endorse.
I personally think Nexus doesn't take care of their modders much at all, and I don't agree with some of your choices. I know Nexus is a business and it's survival is your priority but no modders = no Nexus.
Relying on donations solely while taking 100% of revenue is not going to last forever as you've seen from Steam. And you also asked the modders to put nexus as a provider(which is about 5% of revenue) I mean... I bet they scratched their heads asking when did Nexus give them 5%.
I can write more, but as I've said, I'm not much knowledgeable on this subject and would like the communities help on this. I feel like Nexus isn't much better in my eyes.
If my post is offensive so be it.. good bye, but I feel like too many people aren't questioning this as well.blackasm wrote: Very well put, as it stands the nexus gets money you could say directly from the effort of modders, as well as you tube mod reviewers, bethesda really only gets hype/publicity through modders. Typically mod authors that generate revenue from their own site would lose out being part of the nexus. I have said it a number of times earlier, but it is a classic case of talented people undervaluing themselves.groupthinker1984 wrote: We aren't questioning it because we know the service being provided here. Free hosting of a vast repository of mods for a growing number of games alongside a free client/mod manager that is regularly updated.
You don't have to pay to host and you don't have to pay to download. The people who are paying do so to support nexusmods, not the modders. If we want our money to go to the modders, we will donate to them.
Please don't speak for us when you aren't even one of us.Hevymettle wrote: You seem pretty opinionated despite announcing yourself that you had much ignorance on the topic. First and foremost I think it is important that you know that Valve offered this site 5% of their profit if Nexus was listed by the modder as being an aid to them. It was 100% voluntary of of the modder and initiated by Valve, so blaming this site or Dark0ne makes no sense at all.
Second, this site was founded on being a hub for modders to do what they like and to have it reach out to an audience. No one was forced to do it and they were even supplied with a program that makes it infinitely easier for people to mod their games. Attacking him as "not caring" about modders or taking advantage of them for not paying is pretty ludicrous. He is paying out the butt just to run this site. Have you even looked at the figures it takes to keep this thing going?
Your initial idea was pretty good but it sounds better when you leave out every possible thing that he would have to take into consideration. How easily would the system be abused? (people would find a way to get fake endorsements in the first week, I guarantee it). What happens if the modders start making too much money and the site is losing money offering it to them? Everything here runs the way it was created for and the people that utilize the site have done so for a reason.
It isn't a bad idea but you shouldn't over simplify it and then attack someone when you have questionable knowledge on the topic at best. That is especially distasteful when you are responding to a post that he is making about making changes to help modders make money.macintroll wrote: I was asking on the other topic, why a system like youtube could not be added to the nexus ?.
Like here ads pay the bills. That's why we have a free service.
On youtube you can subscribe to adsense, then showing ads within your videos. Clicks and views giving back some money to each youtubber.
Simply adding ads on the mod page, which earnings goes to the modder, can be a way to give some retribution to some good mods with high pages view stats. (9M pages view for SkyUI)
Of course with this system only good high rated mods will generate some money
but neither nexus or any end user have to pay a cent to the "content provider".Lamproly wrote: If I understand you right, macintroll, I don't think a system like that would leave grateful users. The ads in videos are - again - a huge turn-off and I only don't notice them because of adblock. And that's the reason why I turn off adblock on the nexus site, because the ads there aren't distracting or annoying me as much and I can still browse the site freely.thefinn wrote: I think you guys are completely over-guessing what the nexus makes out of running this whole system.
As far as the 5% being paid to nexus, for all we know some completely overpaid high-priced lawyer realised there was some kind of infringement possibility in this and paying the nexus SOMETHING could alleviate that, but who knows?
Perhaps they really wanted to give something back to the community - although my cynical self just kind of laughs at that idea.macintroll wrote: Quote "I think you guys are completely over-guessing what the nexus makes out of running this whole system."
Only servers costs for Nexus are $500.000 / year as stated Dark0ne some time ago.
Where do you think the money to pay this comes from ?darkslayer666 wrote: @Hevymettle
Likewise my friend. You seem like you know the statistics of Nexus's income I take it?
I am not attacking Nexus, I am critiquing on the way Nexus is handling the situation. I am proposing ways on how we can keep modders from leaving, even at the expense of users by increasing ads for instance. I never said any of my ideas are soundproof. That is why I asked for communities opinion, and not be barraged.
Perhaps I should of with-held my opinion on how I feel, but it's true, Nexus doesn't support the modders one bit as far as my knowledge goes, and giving them tools is like saying a cab-driver should buy his own cab because hey... You say Nexus is trying to help but how? Certainly not out of Nexus's pockets, which I think it should since they bring in the income in the first place.
And on the point of "free-hub".. oh please, it's like saying non-profit organizations aren't profiting. Once again, I care less who's profiting, I am simply raising awareness that if Nexus can waste money on one thing but not the other is a little weird to me.
But once again, feel free to pick anything apart I'm an open book :).Vesuvius1745 wrote: Why doesn't Nexus do more to help mod authors? Dark0ne has been hosting this site for many years. He's spent countless hours on it, and a countless amount of his own money on something that is basically a labor of love. The amount of traffic this site handles is no small feat, and no small amount of money. Dark0ne has given this resource to mod authors for free to host their files, and you want him to do even more? smhmacintroll wrote: @Lamproly
Well i just see this as a way to keep free mods, and modders here. Ads make the internet free currently, anywhere, everywhere else without ads, you pay to access the contents (or to remove the ads)
Paid modding is coming what ever you think now, Valve&Bethesda missed the point starting with Skyrim but for sure the next games without an existing user base currently will have paid mods (FO4?)
It's a trend and more games companies find this as a new good way to make money.
Everyone should also read this by moddb :
http://www.moddb.com/news/the-uncertain-future-of-paid-modsLP1 wrote: I think this is a fair point and something that Robin is probably already thinking about. The fact is that for many years several people have actually been able to monetize modding. Youtubers, the Nexus... The only people who have been forbidden from making money off of modding were the mod authors themselves. A model like youtube with ad revenue sharing would be interesting. Any attempt at a model would be interesting. The Nexus does provide a wonderful service, and Robin runs it about as well as could be expected. It's an extremely challenging job. But the Nexus is most decidedly NOT a non-profit entity. I think that is why Robin has been as balanced as he has been in all of this. I think he truly believes in the spirit of open source. On the other hand, he is a big TES fan who has managed to turn his love of mods into a livelihood. Do modders not have the same right to try to do that? It is a complicated situation.thefinn wrote: I take your point, but I cannot see any real feasible way for the Nexus to put a "share driven" kind of dollar amount on mods, can you ?
Like I understand the modder is the one person not getting paid in this system, but I don't see a way to change that. By the same logic, should Gopher be giving kickbacks to modders for the money he makes off Youtube?
I just don't see how that'd work.sunshinenbrick wrote: You cannot pay for mods, you can only pay for modding. No money for modding can go through Nexus. This is the short version.Vesuvius1745 wrote: What Sunshine said. Not to mention the Nexus is run at a loss. It's a labor of love, and all that "ad revenue" goes toward the upkeep and running of the site, and it still doesn't cover it all. Nobody is secretly getting rich off of the work of mod authors.
@Hevymettle pretty much stated anything I had to contribute to this thread. The Dark0ne does contribute greatly to modders, whether it seems overt or not, and frankly there are few things more aggravating than being accused of not "doing enough."
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I am happy I asked, too :smile:
As for the Quote button not working, I have no clue what "No Script" even is. What I did notice, though, is that I cannot paste inside the "Reply to this topic" box. Maybe this is an indicator for what is wrong.
What are you trying to paste? o.o
Also, no script is a firefox addon that, as the name implies, is used to prevent scripts from loading- it's mainly a security and anti-advertisement too. What web browser are you using?
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Maybe this topic should be stickied... I'm glad to see people are taking this seriously.
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In response to post #24858414. #24864434 is also a reply to the same post.Here here.Jokerine wrote: I, for one, am ready to move on indeed. Thanks again for the talk with TB, it was really fun to listen to :)Elianora wrote: Agreed. I am getting so tired of reading the same crap over and over and people bickering at each other.
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Thanks again for your comments on this Dark0ne. I for one am looking forward to seeing how the donation system can be improved.
Drawing a line under recent events and moving on
in Site Updates
Posted
The reason it was rarely used last time is because most people includinf myself didn't know it existed.