ZagreustheLiar

This is exactly why Fallout 3 sucked. Because scrubs (Todd 'Ler' Howard) want to rehash iconic villains over and over again because they have a cool aesthetic.

The humour in Skyrim is really awful, just like the rest of the writing. Bethesda needs some new blood, stat.

They're nearly all retirees and out of touch. Who gives a damn?

Nothing in the game suggests he usurped Dengier's throne, except Dengier himself, who shows very clear signs of advanced paranoia. He was mysteriously removed from office seemingly out of nowhere, as we have not heard any complaints about his rule other than his advanced age. And why would they want to replace with Siddgeir of all people? She only asks you to look into it because the wolves are howling at her doorstep. The issue with Falion is not obviously not the only problem, her attitude as a whole to the people she rules is aloof and superior, she is obviously more interested in the vagaries of magic than ruling. You're wrong in every single way. The wife of Thonar Silver-Blood, Betrid as well as the man himself fully and freely admit that Thonar handles nearly all the managerial work and is the sole leash holder for Madanach. "I hear from my brother you have done our family a service." is extremely vague, and sounds exactly like what you would tell a brother who is uninvolved in the "family business" and is in no way a serious indication that Thongvor is privy to all the details. So, I suppose we should ban South Park, the Opie & Anthony Show and place gag orders on every 9/11 truther because their writing is in bad taste and might offend people?

Did you know that Bethesda were also in charge of the Quality Assurance (testing etc) for New Vegas?

Did you know that Bethesda were also in charge of the Quality Assurance (testing etc) for New Vegas?

Do you really want me to start on Siddgeir, the drunken incompetent who insinuates that the Nords should ally with the Thalmor against the Empire. He is replaced by Dengeir, who's throne he usurped unlawfully in collusion with the Imperials in the first place. How about Jarl Idgrod, who ignores the day-to-day concerns of governance in favor of arcane dabbling and has nothing but contempt for the concerns of her people, who is replaced by Sorli the Builder (quite an auspicious name), the only Jarl who actually spends significant time outside her longhouse, getting to know her people and their concerns. Jarl Igmund is much like Laila, an unoffensive but a wholly incapable politician who acts as an unwitting figure head for the Silver-Bloods, he is replaced by Thongvor Silver-Blood, a man of stalwart political and ecclesiastical integrity who despite his name, is uninvolved in the corruption and crimes that his younger brother wreaks on the hold. And why not Jarl Elisif herself, a pampered brat who knows even less of ruling than Laila and Igmund and is a willing puppet for her foreign Imperial masters, her only real act of governance being the banning of a harmless play.

Why would you shut down the Securitron army? They're the only guarantor of peace and security from both the NCR and the Legion.

I would disagree with that, guerrilla warfare and sabotage are legitimate tactics when one side has to fight against a superior force, which is certainly the situation the Forsworn are in, but that's where the similarities end. The Forsworn aren't accidentally causing collateral civilian deaths in the course of targeting militarily or politically significant targets, they're just targeting anyone who doesn't wear furs and feathers: miners, farmers, wandering merchants, skinny dippers, and non-Forsworn Reachmen to name some examples we get to stumble across. Their strategy isn't to chip away at the enemy forces until they win, it's simply to strike terror into everyone in the region until they a) flee or b) die in the impending genocide campaign. That goes way past guerrilla warfare and goes neck-deep into the realm of terrorism. Agreed, the Forsworn have taken a legitimate tactic too far, I understand that civilian casaulties are often unavoidable in war, but this isn't accidental. If the Forsworn see a group of farmers walking on the road, do they let them be? They're not a threat, they could leave them be if they wanted to. But they don't want to, they attack these people and if their victims are lucky they are killed quickly. Forsworn victims are rarely that lucky. There is a silver lining though, as bad as the Forsworn are my Dovahkiin is a hell of a lot worse when you piss him off, and the Forsworn have done exactly that. "We hope that you, instead of thinking to influence us by saying that you did not join the Lacedaemonians, although their colonists, or that you have done us no wrong, will aim at what is feasible, holding in view the real sentiments of us both; since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."

A principled psychopath is an invention of Hollywood. Maybe your character checks some points on the ASPD checklist, but she is not a psychopath, who are by definition unable to actually care about any kind of moral code outside of some obfuscating display of humanity.

Yeah, but that's just a vicious ruthless and bigoted killer for hire. A psycho is either referring to a psychotic or psychopath for hire. Like Anton Chigurgh.

Just like how the Soviets went back to Afghanistan, right? Just like how the Empire went back to Hammerfell? I can tell you didn't get your college credits in international relations. Oh you. Heres some of mine, with a more relevant timeline 1. Just like England allowed Scotland to remain as a free country after Wallace drove them out? Scotland was hardly hospitable. 2. Just like Frederick Barbarossa allowed Italy to remain independent from the Holy Roman Empire after they rebelled three times? He did on the Fifth obviously due to the incredible wealth coming into the cities of the Lombard League. Skyrim has no such trade network. They are totally isolated and dependant on the East Empire Company for commerce. 3. The crusades. I know it was a holy war but they didn't stop trying. Thats all I can conjure from my memory right now but I'll be sure to get googling later :happy: All of your examples are dildos. Feudal states are organized in a completely different manner, one that is almost wholly specialized in providing men and materiel for armed forces. Feudal states are much better at withstanding prolonged war as opposed to more or less centralized states like the Empire who employ professional standing armies and a large bureaucracy. After their humiliating defeat to the Aldmeri Dominion, being shamed by the successful resistance of the Redguards and a successful rebellion in Skyrim I doubt they'll have much more appetite for war.

Very well formulated post, but there is one fatal flaw in it. You say that the NCR has no systemic flaw, but due to the nature of it's government and as repeatedly stated by a plethora of in game characters - the New California Republic is not a true democracy. It is wholly beholden to special interest groups such as the merchant companies and the cattle barons, hence why it overextends to acquire new markets and territory for the aforementioned powers. This over extension of course leads to it's inability to properly defend against more mobile forces moving in irregular formation, like the Legion. Just look at real life California, with the PRC-style evictions of residents in Antelope Valley if you want more examples of how tragically flawed our government and society is. Moreover, there is no truly feudal force in New Vegas. Both House and Caesar are the sole potentates of their respective factions, to whom every other member is pledged (which is why I always go Independent)

Just like how the Soviets went back to Afghanistan, right? Just like how the Empire went back to Hammerfell? I can tell you didn't get your college credits in international relations.

There is no evidence of a mass slaughter. Certainly there where killings, but the fact that there are numerous Forsworn Agents that survived the attack indicates that a number of Reachmen where spared, and that the Author of the book was exaggerating. Of course there where stories such as Braig's. But what are we to expect from such an act of war? Furthermore, Galmar refutes these Imperial claims. And the Empire didn't seem to care about these murders until now, when they can use it as propaganda against Ulfric. Igmund doesn't say anything about them, and if the Empire truly cared, they'd surrender the Reach to the Reachmen. An imperial saying one thing happened, a stormcloak saying it didn't happen. Both cancel each other out. I guess its down to personal interpretation of fairly limited info. I didn't say the empire cared. I'm not totally pro empire, not as it is right now. If Ulfric was removed from the equation I'd probably side with the rebellion. Really, and why is that? Considering the enormous hardships and obstacles he has faced down he's a competent and charismatic leader by all accounts who in the face of torture and horrible death will not rescind his beliefs or compromise his integrity. (Although you're a punk if your headcanon does not involve supplanting or surpassing him, the Dovahkin are born to rule).

I choose to see how the Forsworn are now as being the result of Ulfric's actions. Just like the Falmer fell into savagery after the Dwemer betrayed them, the Forsworn have fallen after their dream of a free kingdom was broken by the heel of Ulfric. The fact is that your hero of national liberation quashed a national liberation. Yeah, you choose being the operative phrase here. Besides, who cares about some stinking Daedra worshippers?

So the problem you have is with how much influence I suggested the Thalmor had over Ulfric. OK, we're getting somewhere. The Dossier clearly states that they make contact with Ulfric. I'm not suggesting that he knew it was a Thalmor agent, it could easily have been someone masquerading as an Imperial Officer (like they did in the 'Siege on the Dragon Cult' quest) or something else. The part I agree is stretching the dossier's content, is that the Thalmor directly manipulated Ulfric into committing the atrocities in Markarth. I believe they did just that. What atrocities? The only account of these supposed crimes is from an Imperial scholar who is clearly biased above and beyond his ethnic affiliation, having written a book that glorifies the Forsworn, in fact he is so partisan that he does not even believe in Talos (and that's what I call a real agent of the Thalmor). I don't really understand your beef with the greatest champion of national liberation in Tamriel. "National aspirations must be respected; people may now be dominated and governed only by their own consent. Self determination is not a mere phrase; it is an imperative principle of action. . . . " —Woodrow Wilson with his famous self-determination speech on 11 February 1918 after he announced his Fourteen Points on 8 January 1918. Alright. Now you must be trolling. Nationalists committing atrocities against peoples who they believe are threatening their nation is certainly not a fantasy. The game itself lets you talk to people who suffered in the wake of the Markarth Incident. I know game dialogue is not always relevant to what really happened, but it still matters. I'm not saying that there has never been ethnic conflict or atrocities committed in the name of nationalism, I'm saying there is no independent, verifiable and clear account that what you say happened during the Markarth incident. And you seem to forget that the city had been taken by a group of Daedra-worshipping mass murderers, who can be independently and clearly verified as being really f***ing awful people, just hop in the game.

That's how the Empire has always operated, I don't really understand your surprise here.

So the problem you have is with how much influence I suggested the Thalmor had over Ulfric. OK, we're getting somewhere. The Dossier clearly states that they make contact with Ulfric. I'm not suggesting that he knew it was a Thalmor agent, it could easily have been someone masquerading as an Imperial Officer (like they did in the 'Siege on the Dragon Cult' quest) or something else. The part I agree is stretching the dossier's content, is that the Thalmor directly manipulated Ulfric into committing the atrocities in Markarth. I believe they did just that. What atrocities? The only account of these supposed crimes is from an Imperial scholar who is clearly biased above and beyond his ethnic affiliation, having written a book that glorifies the Forsworn, in fact he is so partisan that he does not even believe in Talos (and that's what I call a real agent of the Thalmor). I don't really understand your beef with the greatest champion of national liberation in Tamriel. "National aspirations must be respected; people may now be dominated and governed only by their own consent. Self determination is not a mere phrase; it is an imperative principle of action. . . . " —Woodrow Wilson with his famous self-determination speech on 11 February 1918 after he announced his Fourteen Points on 8 January 1918.

Conjure? Lets try to find out where we agree then. 1. He was broken by the Thalmor. 2. He was released by The Thalmor 3. The document says he is contacted by the Thalmor 4. He retakes Markarth from the Forsworn 5. From that incident the Thalmor are given free reign to in Skyrim,. 6. Everything Ulfric has done up to before the game starts has been orchestrated by the Thalmor. I'd like to mirror the sentiments of RighthandofSithis, everything you said until point #5 and 6 is well and good but then you just dream up a bunch of what I can't even call conjecture or interpretation, just full blown fantasy, to justify your dislike of the Stormcloaks and Ulfric as quislings for the Thalmor. Calling it full blown fantasy is frankly insulting and borders on trolling. Its my interpretation of what I've read in the game, I never claimed it was anything more. The Markarth Incident meant that the Thalmor were allowed step up their campaign against Talos worship in Skyrim. That is what my memory says. Please correct me if I am wrong about that fact. I don't see how you can refute the fact that Ulfric has been used to further Thalmor interests. I really can't. I already have, multiple times. Now, to say that the actions of Ulfric happened to be beneficial towards Thalmor interests is another thing entirely (as long as he doesn't actually win), but by deliberately choosing the word "use" you are inferring again that he is under their control.

Conjure? Lets try to find out where we agree then. 1. He was broken by the Thalmor. 2. He was released by The Thalmor 3. The document says he is contacted by the Thalmor 4. He retakes Markarth from the Forsworn 5. From that incident the Thalmor are given free reign to in Skyrim,. 6. Everything Ulfric has done up to before the game starts has been orchestrated by the Thalmor. I'd like to mirror the sentiments of RighthandofSithis, everything you said until point #5 and 6 is well and good but then you just dream up a bunch of what I can't even call conjecture or interpretation, just full blown fantasy, to justify your dislike of the Stormcloaks and Ulfric as quislings for the Thalmor.

None of you are describing what a psychopath is. What you're describing is closer to psychotic, which is the antithesis of a psychopath. A psychopath is fully aware of what he is doing at all times and that some of what he does is considered morally reprehensible, he just doesn't have the capacity to give a s***. They are also highly impulsive, resistant to negative reinforcement (punishment) et cetera.

Obsidian is known for being forced to do rush jobs by Lucas Arts, SEGA and Bethesda respectively. The latter three companies essentially being run by a triumvirate of Satan, Mao Tse-Tung and Charles Manson.

Thanks for that pearl of strategic wisdom Black Ninja 50.

Caesar himself is in my opinion one of the most intelligent and insightful characters written in the last couple of years of video games, but I usually go for independent (tilting more towards the managerial style of Caesar than the one of President Kimball). I don't fully agree with some of the finer points of the philosophy of Caesar's Legion, but most people misinterpret the slavery angle. Caesar's Legion is a roaming army that keeps (non-legionnaire) slaves for support and logistics which is infinitely more simple than having to arrange for contractors and entrepreneurs. The civilian sphere which is likely the vast majority of the population within the territory of Caesar mostly governs itself with minimal taxation as long as it is loyal to the Legion. Slavery is thus probably no more widespread than the rest of the Wasteland (barring the NCR). It is not the large scale slavery of the latifundias or the cotton plantations. Likewise, it is only the women within the Legion itself that suffer, the people being governed are probably as egalitarian as anywhere else. All in all, I despise the NCR, they are the epitome of everything that is wrong within our society today. There's a lot of misguided jingoism and American exceptionalism in this thread from the very people who are being ground into dust in servitude to the real NCR.