Acidbuk

In response to post #24756984. That's the crux of it ain't it?. To many people, right or wrong, it was the straw that broke the camels back - we're to a point in gaming where we already have to drop $60 for a game, Or if you Pre-Order the Super-Duper-Awesome Version for $80 of 'bonus content', another $15 For Day on DLC (that is often on the disc and was sectioned off). another 3 to 4 DLC Packs that retail at $10 each. in game Micro-Translations from $5 to $100. 'Early access' games which may never be finished or even be any good, because lets face it for every Kerbal Space Program there are a dozen cube-worlds. Then they hit us with wanting to commercialise Mods and exploit Modders too to get another bite at our wallets, because look at your load order - now say each of those costs $5 - if your running over a 100 mods that's $500 - it adds up. Unfortunately I'm not sure if the community here will ever truly recover - Modders (at least some of them) will forever re-grudge 'users' for breaking there dream of getting paid to mod because they are 'a bunch of ungrateful f*ckwit who don't want to pay for anything", There are already reports of modders quitting, if they can't get paid though I don't know how true that is.. On the other side of it users (at least some of them) will hold a grudge against modders who 'sold out to corporate for a pay check'. its a Pyrrhic victory, we may have won. the battle cost us so much, we may as well have lost.

In response to post #24754284. As an Observer, I agree with you wholeheartedly. There was some pretty damn reprehensible behaviour from all sides. this whole thing was a massive badly thought out cluster f**k. at best, this is a Pyrrhic victory.

In response to post #24682284. #24682924, #24688774, #24689099, #24689669 are all replies on the same post. But that's the thing yeah. it doesn't make sense from a business of physiological perspective. it they were trying to warm people up to the idea of paid mods its far easier to do warm people up to it on a new Product, and with an existing one. For Better or worse Most people people are psychologically firm with the idea mods should be free. - Right or wrong, I'm just saying that's how it is because its "the way its always been". so trying to change that with a new Product is much much better than trying to Bludgeon it into an existing IP like Skyrim because there is a LOT of fear, a whole big lot of it heaped in large ominous spades, because people are afraid of losing their favourite mods. or because of the interconnected nature of mods - having to buy one mod to play another one. its a rabbit warren than don't end. . I don't think they would have had anywhere near the backlash if they'd made this change for Fallout 4 or TES6 because people aren't as .psychologically invested in the idea of Mods being free, so long as Bethesda had given assurances that they'd not be introducing this retro-actively for other games. people would have taken them at their word and it would have been far less turmoil. now, that trust is broken and Good Will is something you cannot buy, its earned,

In response to post #24682284. #24682924 is also a reply to the same post. Bethesda has a history of just dropping the creation-kit with an EULA that when you crunch down the legal speak boils to "Go Nuts. Just don't charge anyone for it". which is standard fare for most SDK's from pretty much any Developer that puts one out. Oh I agree with you, this is an absolutely brutal way to introduce a community that has co-operated for years, to the concept of digital copyright and licensing. licensing is not something anyone really wants to do, its one of those necessary evils which come part and parcel of Software development and its amazingly awesome that as a community we (collectively Users and Creators) have been able to avoid using them, instead using an informal "Please don't steal my stuff just ask if you want to use it" unfortunately as this moves forward, we are almost certainly going to see the term "licensing" as things formalise up between paid and Free mods and what can and cannot be used. I suspect Bethesda will keep quiet and ride out the storm of malcontent until things dye down, then they'll come out with some PR speak about 'We are Bethesda value your input on the recent opportunities for monetization of mods, and we are listening to your feed back and moving forward together with the community' As for why now? that I couldn't tell you., I would kind of get it if they did this for Fallout 4 or TES-6 whenever that comes out because your dealing with a blank slate. but injecting this into an already vibrant and established ecosystem? is like introducing an invasive plant species. Everyone is scrambling - I really have Sympathy for Robin/Dark0ne right now, Guy had to cancel a holiday to deal with the fallout (no pun intended) from this, between Mod authors taking their mods down to migrate to the workshop, other mod authors scrambling to take their mods down because they are afraid someone will take their work and put IT on the workshop for money as their own (DMCA's are no easy thing), and users trying to download as many mods as they can in panic in case their favourite mods go Pay-Wall. its got to be just a little bit insane, investing all that time and money in the infrastructure upgrade was forward thinking. just not in the way he would have liked I guess. I do find Valves/Bethesda TOC's morally questionable, in particular how its al-edged Chesko was told by a Valve employee that it was okay to use someone else's free content and include that and charge of it and not have to ask any permission what so-ever, that is not Chesko fault. However I find the concept of Early Access Mods Morally dubious - Early access it and of itself is tittering on the brink, paying for Early Access mods is so far down the slippery slope that I doubt you could even see the top any more.

I think, TotalBiscuit hit on something when he said, and I quote "Mod Authors didn't release their Mods for free because they wanted too, they did it because they had too. - They legally couldn't sell them". and that, is the fear at the root of all this mess, and it is a whole helping of fear. that because Mod Authors can now charge money for a mod, that they will. that mods will only be sold and all the mods we've come to love will be locked behind pay walls. Its not an entirely unsubstantiated fear either. Yes there will always be "Free mods", same as there is still Open Source Software and Freeware (Some of which is even really, really good) but there is no where near as much Open Source as there is commercial-software. Riddle me this – if the Creation kit had shipped with paid mods as an option three years ago would we now have over 40,000 mods on the Nexus for free? I dare say I don't think we would. That's the Terrible Rub in all this, you look at any community which allows money to be charged for user generated content and that community is no where near as vibrant, diverse or as collaborative. GabeN and by extension Valve and Bethesda have opened a door that has fundamental shifted the physiology of the landscape every Mod Author big and small will now be asking "Why should I release this for free when I can make money from it?" for many it will be an subconscious tick as they approach 'Release day' and a mod wraps up Development others it will be a consideration from the start making a mod to sell instead of just wanting someone to enjoy their work for what it is. Hell Just take a moment to look at Minecraft, Modding, Go Look. I'll wait... Licensing and Distribution of mods for Minecraft is a cluster-f**k because of how Mojang allows creators to make money from mods primarily using Adfly links, they keep an absolute strangle-hold to ensure mods are downloaded via the Adfly links that make them money, you rarely ever see mods including other mods in their work, and mod packs are a legal minefield. Not reserved for the armature.. Now, you could argue "Well Mod Authors should be able to make money from their work", and To a Degree that is a fair point, However, taking that at face value - Who makes that money? 30% of it goes straight to Valve for providing you with you access to Steam that is a flat transaction fee, then 45% goes to Bethesda in Royalty payments for owning the IP and allowing you to sell that mod, that's 75% of your whatever you charge you will never see. That leaves 25% for you as creator. But threes more Contractual Mojo – you have to make at least $100, before they'll release any money to a creator at all. So lets do some mathematics Lets say your Mod costs a $1. Of that 30 Cents go to Valve and GabeN. 45 Cents go to Bethesda. You as creator get 25 Cents. That means you have to make $400 worth of sales before you will even see any returns at all. Now Lets look at any given mod, say a larger one – scroll through the description to that list of credits. Depending on the size of the mod this list can get very long, For the sake of mathematics lets say you used assets from 7 mods to make your mod. Other creators Unless its Specifically licensed under CC-ZERO or CC-BY are not going to let you sell their work for free, so they are going to want their cut, of your mod. That comes out of your 25% Stake, so that 25% now gets divided seven ways, which is about 3.5% Each. Some might not want to let you use their assets at all on principle. Or more likely may want to sell their own asset packs and get a 25% stake of that, instead of the 3.5% they can get including it with your mod. It gets even worse with mods that require other mods to function or they break entirely, tens of thousands of mods require SKSE, or SKY-UI or FNIS. Now you either have to Strip away that functionality, or negotiate some kind of licensing agreement with those developers to distribute those runtime Libraries because again if you are getting paid, they want to get paid too. OR you are going to force a user to buy another mod SKY-UI 5 For example, to get your mod working and I'm fairly certain that breaks a law or several about a product being “Fit for sale”. Where-in-by a person that has paid for a product has a reasonable expectation that product will function out of the box a concept that has recently at least in the EU been expanded to include Software. Essentially – if someone sells you a coffee machine, you have a reasonable expectation it will produce a brown liquid that passes for coffee. Right now, a lot of the Inherent problems of mod making get hand-waved, A Mod Can, and sometimes do break things if a mod breaks your game, corrupts a save, causes major crashes, isn't compatible with another mod, breaks when the game is patched by a developer, or maybe just plane doesn't work from the go. most will shrug there shoulders and go "Eh I didn't pay for it, what can I expect?". Because no reasonable person could expect a Mod Author who is releasing a mod for free to support it. A lot do give up their free time and engage with users to fix problems but they don't have too, they don't have to release patches, or updates or work out compatibility fixes even if a user donates, he or she has zero no expectation of extended support – you donate because you want to donate, not because anyone is forcing you too. Likewise a Mod creator gets a lot of freedom. A Mod Authors word is effectively god, your not forced to make it work if it doesn’t or heaven forbid, freak out in a peak of rage tear all your mods down pretty much on a whim, its a bit of a shitty thing to do but, its your right. we're not entitled to your work, but you are not entitled to our money either. However. Once you put a pay-wall between the user, and the content they want to consume that isn't voluntary (as in not a donation). they are no longer just users, they are customers. And Customers, despite Corporates best efforts have rights too, it doesn’t matter if you are charging $1 or $1,000. Poland for example has some of the toughest Consumer rights laws in the EU, and South Korea has the toughest Consumer rights laws in the world. Things that were hand-waved before, things like Fit for Sale, and Digital Distribution laws that govern online translations, matter. As Author you are no longer completely unaccountable you have obligations, ones backed by actual laws. That have very serious real world penalties for breach. If you think Users are 'Entitled' now, just you wait until money starts changing hands and they have legal rights to back them up if your mod breaks something. Something Chesko is learning the hard way, after charging for Alissa 2.0. I do have a great degree of Sympathy for Chesko and I find some of the things said about him up to and including threats or his life and revealing his personal details absolutely reprehensible on any conceivable moral scale. What is also unacceptable is how Chesko is absolutely livid. That he can't completely remove his content from Steam, Valve have removed it from sale however to remove it entirely , would require including from people who paid for it. People that have paid for access to his content and now have a legal right to that content. As much as I hate to side with Corporate in anything, GabeN is absolutely right and would be in a whole bunch of Legal trouble – trouble Valve would be on the hook for if they allowed content that has been paid for to be pulled on a whim whenever the author likes. Its. A. Rabbit. Hole. One with no bottom that just keeps on giving. Still All of that may be worth it, "25% of something is better than 100% of nothing" after all, But also worth noting is your not making "Real Money", You won't get a cheque in the post - you get "Steam Bucks" to spend...on Steam and only Steam, so the money never -really- leave Valve's accounts so even when its yours it is still making them money. Despite that however, if you want to charge for your mods, I do, Honestly wish you the best of luck, and every success but Don't let Valve or Bethesda dangle a few shiny barbels in front of you and dazzle you into blindly following the path they dictate and ignore your natural urge to question everything and Remember – that once you cross that line, you also have obligations to yourself, to Valve and to your customers. Forward, Eyes open and all sins accounted for.