Why would you even discuss that? Any kind of leverage automatically excludes the whole basic idea behind this debate. I don't understand why you'd even consider enchantments or any other thing that would lead to superiority, the whole gist of this was to discuss which class would be better with regards to their original abilities. Birthsigns, enchantments, perks or whatever shouldn't even be pointed out because there's no real even ground then. It's not okay. That's my whole point, people tend to consider crafting skills for weapons but choose to ignore them when it comes to magic (you can read the OP's post, and many others' which says magic is useless). People need to place the two skills in similar context to compare them, but they usually don't do that. I am against that ( my final line said to take away all crafting skills) Now I must say I'm sorry because I thought you were among them. I misunderstood your sentence: Let's forget the fact that you mention potions for spell protection (mage can wear armor for damage protection), I'd like to argue with your statement of weapon's raw damage dishing out spells: when you max out your skill and have all power-up perks (I know you said no perk, but without perk, weapon would look even more pathetic since they get 100% increase while spell only get 50%), the most powerful onehanded weapon (dragonbone mace) would do 51 damage per hit, the most powerful twohanded (dragonbone war hammer) would do 84 DPH and the most powerful bow (daedric) would do 78. Only 2 of those are slightly stronger than adept destruction spells and all are weaker than expert spells. You can cast 2 spells per second but only do 1 or 2 hits per second with weapon. These make spell's raw damage higher than weapons. Since I see that weapon damage is lower than spells, I thought you counted bonus from crafting skills when you said weapon damage is higher. I get your point, really. But then we're at square one again, disregarding everything such as perks, potions or w/e it just ends up on just preferences, nothing else. Both classes set at the same amount of skill would just even out, lets not forget stuff like power attacks with melee weapons whilst spells only have a standard attack option, there's really no way to compare it when you take everything in account.