miketheratguy

Hey everyone. I'm interested in creating a house mod for myself- if it's good enough, I guess I'd consider uploading it, but I don't have such aspirations at the moment. I've never made a structure for an ES game, and just wanted to try creating one for myself due to not being able to find just the right home out of the many great choices. Basically, my goal is just to make a big, spacious single-cell interior for myself that other npcs can traverse, and preferably be able to interact with things such as beds and tables. I had a couple of questions though. For example only today I heard of this "Navmesh bug" and I'm wondering how threatening it is for someone who just wants to create a spacious home for himself and allow pre-existing Skyrim characters to enter and move freely within it (using mods such as Followers Can Relax; Spouses Can Live Anywhere, etc.) as opposed to crafting my own NPCs and populating my house with them, which I feel is beyond my knowledge at this early stage. Or is the bug still enough that I'd need to go beyond the basics and convert an esp into an esm and make them run together or something? I was also wondering if there was kind of an agreed-upon set of tips and guidelines for a first timer who's somewhat familiar with the Oblivion kit but not with the Skyrim one and who, again, has tinkered but never fully crafted his own mod. Lastly, I know that Google is my friend and that there are tutorials and videos out there, but are there any particularly thorough and / or easily-understandable ones that spring to mind which would be especially useful for a beginner like me? Any suggestions of other things to try first, or specific pitfalls to avoid? Thanks for any advice.

Glad to hear you checked it out Lorca. I assure you, every day you'll discover new aspects of the game. :)

This is becoming THE site for the greatest games. Anyone with uncertainty over Mount and Blade (at least Warband, the game which I'm most familiar with in this series) really needs to give it a shot. Yes, the graphics are a bit clunky, but the gameplay is INCREDIBLY addicting, and just keeps getting deeper and deeper as long as you want to keep going. Think of Sid Meier's Pirates, but rather than a sea-faring swashbuckling simulator, you have a warring medieval kingdom simulator. You've got your overhead map which serves as your hub, free to travel at your discretion. You'll run across bands of armies and bandits and caravans as they go about their business, hustling to and fro the various towns and castles across the land. You're free to do as you choose. Do you head to the taverns to hire local warriors to make up your army? Do you do some favors for a king and ask to join his army? Do you work your way up the ranks and become a trusted general, counted on to sack a castle and receive parcels of land? Do you work long and hard to form a ragtag gang of barbarians and try to siege a castle and found your own kingdom? Or do you just freelance and kill the armies of whoever offers you the coin? What about your own army? Are you looking for barbarians? Spearmen? Archers? Cavalry? How about a mix? Do you want to rampage and cut your enemies down, or stand back and issue real-time formation and movement commands? And don't forget the path of a merchant or property investor, or the glorious life of a tournament champion. No dragons, no fantasy, no magic- this is a straight up and incredibly realistic title that's all about achieving success in the age of kings, however you define success and whatever steps you want to take to get there. The game gives you SO much to do, and the best part is that when you're not embroiled in the political battlefield (which you can avoid altogether if you like), you're engaged in the military battlefield- and the combat is addicting, robust, and completely satisfying. There's way too much game to summarize in just a couple of paragraphs. It may not be everyone's cup of tea and not at all the same type of game as an Elder Scrolls title- but my god, does it suck the hours away just as quickly. Highly impressive for a game created by a skeleton crew, and easily among the best games I've ever played.

Yeah note keeping is one thing I'm particularly good at. I have my own large document with descriptions of every mod I've ever tested and what my thoughts are about it. It definitely comes in handy and it gets added to constantly. I've saved a copy of the esp, bsa, original readme, and my own description and history of the ups and downs with what it took to make (so hopefully I won't need to go through this kind of experience again). I still really wish I understood what was keeping that first, original crash damage to the RRM mod. I'm hpayy that uninstalling it with OBMM finally got rid of it, but I wish I knew why nothing else was working. I hate not understanding these things (and pestering everyone on the forum about it with my lengthy posts).

Yes, and I've discovered that when trial and error doesn't seem to work, talking directly with someone who's been there is the best way to understand. So right now I have Red Rose functioning basically as I want it. All I need to do to keep a backup of this work is to save a copy of the esp? I mean, I might as well save a copy of the bsa and readmes in the same archive for future install convenience, but the esp is all that's really required to enable my changes? I just want to be sure that I have what I need if I had to reformat my hard drive or switch computers or something. Don't want to go through this entire process again (though the biggest, most time-consuming problem- not being able to undo the original change to the mod- is the one I'm most concerned about repeating).

Yes, the analogy is definitely apt! I don't particularly care whether my alterations take the form of an omod or not, it's just that turning the original mod into one is the only thing that fixed my biggest problem. After I did the damage to Red Rose Manor way back at the beginning of all this, NOTHING would undo it- until finally, a couple nights ago, turning the mod into an omod then installing, removing, deleting, and reinstalling it did the trick. As such, it implied to me that removing an omod is more thorough than removing a "regular" mod. I wouldn't mind going back to square one and starting the process over, but I would have to make sure that I can always uninstall damage to a mod, which is something that took me one week and half a dozen pages to accomplish the first time. That's why I'd like to find out how to save what I've done in the form of a backup that I can always rely upon in the future. Presumably, all I need to do this is to take this esp I've modified, then package it together with the bsa and stick it on the shelf. After all, most mods are just the esp and maybe a bsa and readme. Should I decide to uninstall RRM and then reinstall my version again at a later date, it would logically work the way I modified it to. But then I think about how uninstalling and reinstalling this mod didn't cleanly wipe away edits to it, which was the problem in the first place- it took an omod version of the mod to "start clean".

Lol here's where I stand- in this present save that I happen to be using right now, the mansion seems to be back where I placed it, including the marker (well sort of- I remember the marker hovering over the mansion in the CS, and I noticed that to enable ("find") the location in-game, I have to turn off clipping and fly up there. The mansion seems to be where I wanted it, but I forgot that this backup is from my first move- there are tons of little alterations and cleanups (adjusted height of busges and rocks, etc.) that are not apparent in this copy. Thing is, I'm terrified to even touch the construction set now. Through everyone's help, including yours, I'm in the role of someone who doesn't really know what he's doing but has been able to follow instructions and some trial and error to generally make what he wants to do happen. My problem is that I want to understand what I'm doing. I've looked through the first few pages of the CS wiki, and the basics make sense- but major changes such as what I just described seem random due to my confusion and I wish I could understand this better. For example, here I have an omod file in my OBMM \ mods directory, with the name "Mike's Manor" (which I labeled it who knows when). I also have the Red Rose Manor bsa, esp, and readmes sitting in the data folder, named their original names. In which file are my modifications contained? I'm looking at a RRM that's where I wanted it- that's the good part- but it needs visual cleaning, which isn't bad but a little time consuming. Now, if I were to turn on the CS and load the RRM mod that it's in my data directory, will it be the one I'm looking at, my modified one where I can fix the heights and remove some rocks like the first time? More importantly- once I'm DONE and the manor looks clean and nice and is where I want it- what do I make a copy of for future use? Do I copy the esp and bsa and package it into a new rar for myself? Do I just make a copy of the omod file? Things seem to get changed and reset so easily that I'm afraid to change anything now.

What you suggested sounded logical. So I loaded up my game that has RRM in the new spot but withe the marker in the old location. I went inside the IC lighthouse, saved the game. I exited and deactivated the mod through OBMM. I went back into the game, saved again, and exited. I reactivated the mod through OBMM. Loaded that save. It crashed mid-load. Tried again with a different save, crashed mid-load. Deleted this new save, loaded an older one. Red Rose Manor is now entirely back in its original location. :wallbash: EDIT: Remembered that I made a copy of the omod as well as all the Red Rose Manor files that were in my data directory after making my changes, not knowing which of them contained my modifications. Copied these backups over everything (omod as well as esp, bsa, etc.) and the Manor is back where I placed it again- this time with the map marker in the proper place. Confused. So, very, confused.

Actually last night while I was waiting, I decided to try this again on my own. It would have been more wise to await advice from you guys who know better, but knowing that I could now clear my damage with OBMM made me feel more safe to experiment. So here is specifically what I did: 1. Loaded both GC and RRM withOUT setting an active file. Moved the RRM exterior where I wanted it then wrote down the coordinates. 2. Restarted the CS and loaded RRM only, setting it as active. I selected the entirety of the RRM exterior (doors, mounted candles, light sources, markers, etc.) and tried to tell it to zap to my relocation coordinates, but this only worked on the building itself; none of the other stuff went with it (it stayed in a floating mass). While this sort of seemed logical, it made me wonder how everyone easily moves multiple objects without manually dragging them. 3. So I did- I reselected the mass of objects, raised it into the air so I could easily see everything, then manually dragged it through the sky until it crossed the (reasonably short) distance to its new location. I then made a few passes rotating it and lowering down onto the relocated exterior until it was all flush. 4. I then saved. In my data folder the items still show up as "EM Red Rose Manor" although they now interestingly have a little orange "lock" icon on them, I think except for the esp. When I load OBMM, the mod has the same name but now lists something like "new mod v.1" for the filename. But that's it; the mod is basically working as I hoped it would- on its own it floats obnoxiously in a seemingly random spot in the wilderness, but with Glenvar activated as well the land is adjusted in such a way to perfectly accommodate it. I now have the castle proper (completely untouched by my edit) with Red Rose apparently functioning as normal right there in the courtyard- the quest to get the Manor seems to work just as it should. Somehow I messed up the markers though- When I first did a test play the marker was in its new spot next to Glenvar but now seems back in the Manor's original location, though all else seems normal. I know this might not have been the best way to go about editing the mod (and in some cases goes directly against what you said, Evenstar) but I did this before I saw a response. Can anyone tell me if what I did was ill-advised and if so, why? I cannot find information this specific when I search around. And I would like to try Bash- I hear about it relentlessly even though I'm perfectly satisfied (and confident) with OBMM- but it's been mentioned in relation to what I want to do here and it also seems to be able to rename generic / Crowded Road NPCs, which I GREATLY desire. However, when I went to install it the options and FAQ seemed incredibly complicated for me not to mention the fact that, despite its completed install, it immediately shuts down when I try to launch it. :(

AT LAST, I finally got it to undo my damage. AT LONG LAST!!! I asked about this problem in a few places, wanting every possible suggestion I could find. Someone said that I could "start fresh" using Oblivion Mod Manager. I did what they instructed: I unzipped and made an OMOD of the Red Rose Manor, then installed it and tried to look at it in the CS. I had the same errors. They said that this might happen so I should uninstall and delete this new OMOD version of the plugin, and install it again. This time I made an OMOD of the RRM archive itself, rather than the folder. To my immense shock and joy, it WORKED. I looked at the long-lost RRM exterior, right back on the hill it was originally placed on, without an error message in sight. Then I got the hell out of there. So here's where I stand. First of all, I recall the mod coming with a text document referring to optional flowers. I think that might be the COBL items mentioned (I'm not sure, as I saw only the 1 RRM esp and never had error messages before my own fiddling), but I don't have COBL installed. Second, I'd still like to do what I originally intended to: Access Red Rose Manor and Glenvar Castle from the same general location. I won't do that until I'm advised how to do it without messing anything up. To do that, if you guys will continue to be patient with me for a little while, I need to explain my old attempts one more time and ask if you can help me understand what went wrong. I'm not going to repeat each of these attempts, but I really want to understand the errors they caused. 1: I loaded up the Glenvar Castle and Red Rose Manor plugins. I copied the single-cell interior of RRM and loaded up the GC main hall interior, where I connected the two. By that I mean I moved a door in GC then dragged the RRM interior- in full- into the open space where that door would lead. This made a hole in the wall where, ideally, playing GC would allow me to walk through and step right onto the RRM floor. I don't remember how I saved this but I do know that when I tested it in-game, Glenvar was fine and all the items from the RRM interior were in place, but the walls and floor of RRM were not. I walked through Glenvar's new wall hole and stepped into limbo, surrounded by floating RRM objects. 2: My other attempt was to leave the interiors alone and focus on exteriors. I again loaded up GC and RRM (clean copies) and simply dragged a highlight box around RRM's exterior building, then scrolled over to where GC sits and pasted it. I now had a redundant copy of RRM's exterior but that was okay as I was just testing ideas. I took a small while to settle this extra copy of RRM where it fit nicely in GC's courtyard. I then adjusted the doors of the original RRM building so that they'd be blank, and adjusted the doors of this extra copy of RRM, in its new location, to lead to RRM's interior. Everything looked right but when I play-tested it, this extra RRM wasn't in Glenvar's courtyard where I put it. Trees and benches that came with my RRM copy DID get placed, but the second manor exterior was completely missing. My last attempt was, of course, the disastrous one. That's where I simply said "Hell with it" and tried to drag the RRM exterior directly and reposition it in its new place next to Glenvar. That's when it crashed. Now that I have a clean, unaltered, unsaved copy of both mods, I'm ready to start over but I need help. Can someone help me understand why my first 2 attempts didn't work (or could ever have worked, presumably), as well as exactly what I need to do to try the final attempt again? Here's what I want to do: Be able to play Glenvar Castle COMPLETELY AS IS, but have Red Rose Manor in play as well- with the only difference being that the exterior of Red Rose Manor would be in a new location, next to the castle, and retain normal interior access. I'm sorry to be so long-winded and specific. I'm just trying to do things EXACTLY right this time, and understand every possible mistake I made before so I don't repeat them.

I first uninstalled the game using the disc, then deleted (or backed up into separate folder and deleted) my saves, my mods, and a few Oblivion files in the previously hidden C:\Mike\user\appdata\local folder. Basically I deleted every Oblivion folder I could find. Then I ran ccleaner, and uninstalled everything from the CS to OBMM to OBSE. I tested the new install using only what was required- the game, SI, the SI patch, Red Rose Manor, and the CS. I left all my saves and other files in their relocated, renamed places. I do believe that there's some hidden residue of the old game or CS install (well, obviously), I just can't seem to find and eliminate it despite what I thought were pretty thorough efforts.

I hadn't used another fresh download on this most recent install, but last week when I was talking to the others it was suggested that I try a fresh download of the mod and that didn't change anything (overwrite or otherwise).

Although I'm still kind of confused, I can't recall if the worldspace that Glenvar castle occupies had a unique name or not. I'd have to re-download it and try loading it up again in the CS to see. I do know that what you're talking about sounds about right to what I need to do: Simply find the spot where I wanted to drop the RRM exterior, track down its coordinates, then simply edit RRM (by itself) and give the new coordinates to the buildin's exterior (which I think can be done, right?). Presumably, if I do this on the "uncorrupted" computer- move RRM's exterior to my preferred coordinates- then save the mod with a different name- I should be able to bring it to my "corrupted" computer and install it, where it will be viewed as a totally new mod, right? -Actually maybe not. I renamed the RRM esp and BSA to "MikeRedRoseManor" and the damn thing still won't work. This is getting to the point of absolute ridiculousness. What am I doing wrong? How can ONE crash of the CS, which apparently I was helpless to prevent, have permanently scarred this mod to the end of eternity?!?!?

Uninstalled the game completely using the disc, ran ccleaner, reinstalled Oblivion to C:\Games, installed SI and the patch, installed the construction set. Still messed up. I did enable the "show extensions of known file type" in addition to "show hidden files and folders" which I already enabled last night, so I guess I can view everything but I wouldn't know what to delete if anything. Sigh. Any thoughts on what to try next?

I'm just confused as to why I'd need to include Glenvar at all. Granted, I want to ultimately use both so that the exterior of RRM is right there next to Glenvar- I intend to play both at the same time, assuming I can eventually get this project to work. But I don't know why I'd need GC to be a part of the actual modding at all. Here's what I mean, because I know this probably sounds ridiculous: The whole time I was doing this- moving RRM to its new location- I was only loading Glenvar Castle with it as a point of reference. Glenvar flattens the land on which it sits and also provides me with the castle so I can actually see where I need to place the RMM exterior. Glenvar has a huge outdoor courtyard and this is where I intend to put RMM. If I didn't have Glenvar loaded when moving RRM, I wouldn't know the exact coordinates to drop the building nor the correct elevation. BUT, since I only have Glenvar loaded as a visual reference and am not touching or editing it in any way, I don't know that I would need both mods to be merged or modifed; just RMM. I suppose I could get on that other computer, load both mods, relocate the RMM exterior, and write down its new coordinates. From then on I'd at least know the right spot to drop it having to have Glenvar loaded at the same time. But THEN I'd be back to my original issue- fixing (or in this example, getting around) RMM's damage. I mean, can't an esp somehow be altered (or renamed, or saved, or whatever) BEFORE the construction set so I can have a new copy of it to work with? My computer has apparently decided to lock my damage to the original RMM mod. Surely there's something that can be changed to make the CS view it as a fresh new plugin. Nothing else seems to be working. I appreciate your help Striker but based on your situation I guess I'm asking anybody who reads this. You really should unionize, get a pay raise, and buy some sharp tools! :)

I can spare you some, but I think I need to keep about 6 feet around, just in case. :) You're talking about exactly what I mean: If I cannot get around whatever is causing the CS to regard RMM as irreparably edited, then maybe I can still make my OWN mod using its resources. Granted, I'd have to do this entire process on the second computer where RMM isn't corrupted, but it might work. If I could essentially leave both mods as they are, and do NOTHING but drag the exterior of Red Rose Manor and plop it next to Glenvar Castle (where, presumably, I will still be able to enter RMM as normal; exiting would simply drop me out into the relocated exterior cell), then save this as my own plugin, maybe this will all work. To do this would I need to make both Glenvar Castle and Red Rose Manor into ESMs, or just Red Rose Manor? In this scenario I'm actually not doing anything to GC; I'd just be nestling the RMM exterior next to it and would therefore only be touching RMM resources.

So whenever you decide to edit a mod you've downloaded, you just make it active and save from time to time as you work? You've never really had to make a separate esp if editing just one mod at a time? That's part of where I'm confused- I'm pretty sure the active mod was the one I was editing (Red Rose Manor) when the CS crashed, and now the change seems to be all but etched into my circuit board. I deleted the Oblivion file that was previously hidden and the 3 files that came within it (after backing them up in another folder of course) and the CS still gives me endless error messages when I try to mess with RMM. *Banging head against ****ing wall, preparing noose* I definitely am intrigued about combining two mods- something that, if I did it correctly to begin with, would have saved me days of frustration- but for now there seems to be no end to this RMM perma-error in sight.

Yeah that's fair advice. In the meantime, can you tell me anything else about this combination modding- taking two separate mods and, essentially, moving them next to each other on the world map and saving as a new mod? My instinct tells me to always make any mod changes as a new mod- to save any changes as a new active file rather than overwrite the original- but will doing this retain all the features (quests, etc) of the mods being edited, or will the new saved file be a sort of redundant "ESP to the original ESP"? I remember dialogue discussing making an ESP into an ESM but that's still a little too far ahead for me I think. Anyway I'm mainly focused on trying to fix this problem first, but I like getting whatever knowledge I can at a time because I feel bad about making stupid question threads.

Okay I could possibly be getting somewhere. I looked up how to display everything that's hidden in Win 7, and did so. I can now navigate to C\Mike\Appdata, where there IS an Oblivion folder (along with a virtual store folder). Inside the Oblivion folder are 2 DLC / plugin related text files, and a "plugins.tes4viewsettings" file. Anything I should do to these?

I also have another idea if this just won't work (I'd like to find out what my problem is, but just in case it still goes nowhere): I have a second computer that has Oblivion installed on it. Could I use that computer to run the CS and load up the two mods- Glenvar Castle and Red Rose Manor- move the entire exterior of RMM next to the exterior of GC- and save as a new mod? I would then copy this new mod back over to the original computer where I'd use it instead of the corrupted RMM mod. Can that be done? Can I keep RRM functioning normally AND simply move its exterior location to another wilderness cell, saving that one change as a new mod? A mod that will have the exact same functionality as the default RMM with the only difference being that the manor itself will have been moved to a different place on the map?

Not by default; I don't think. I can enable them in whatever folder I click on though. I'm kind of unfamiliar with the inner workings of Win 7 (used XP myself until late last year). If there's a folder I can see hidden files in that would help, let me know and I'll "unhide" its contents.

Sorry for disappearing. An emergency came up that kept me away from the computer for pretty much the last week or so. Now that I'm back and trying to get back into the swing of things, I thought it would be a good time to try figuring this out again. Alas, a complete reinstall didn't work. I removed the game using the disc setup, removing Oblivion entirely. Then I used ccleaner to wipe the residue from the registries. Finally I reinstalled the game in a completely different location (in this a games folder I made on my desktop). I installed Shivering Isles on top of it, patched it, installed the basic construction set, then Red Rose Manor by itself. Fresh install, different place, ONE mod. And it still spits a hundred errors at me when I scroll over to the wilderness cell in question. Sample: Model load error: in landscape\Emma\EMIvoryrose01b\.nif. Will use the default object Marker_Error.nif When possible, I used these instructions. http://wiki.tesnexus.com/index.php/Oblivion_reinstall_procedure I looked but couldn't find appdata or programdata or any access to this irritating Win 7 "temporary storage" or whatever crap it's called. Somehow, a log of my inadvertent mod change (which apparently saved itself when the CS crashed mid-change) apparently still exists and is overruling not only a complete OBLV install but also a fresh install of the CS and even the mod itself. I feel so frustrated and helpless. ALL this simply because I loaded a mod in the CS and tried to move an object within it? Now I can't go back? I don't understand why this is happening or why anyone else hasn't gone through the same thing. :( There MUST be some beginner-friendly way to revert a mod to its original state or undo changes to it or, where I think the problem might lie, erase the damage that's being stored in the magical temporary Win 7 data.

Very good; when I'm back at the computer I'll post the results of the reinstall and if I'm lucky I can still catch you.

This install of Oblivion is the first on that particular hard drive, but that's still good advice. I'll be sure to clear everything and see if that eliminates the problem. I don't expect you to drop all you'll be doing and guide me through everything but will you be around later in the evening? Despite us not figuring a solution yet I appreciate the help.

Imagine how I feel, lol. If need be, I can reinstall Oblivion and just hang onto my saves. The problem with that is that when the aforementioned Program files issue happened last year, a clean reinstall of the game (and clean reinstall of the mod) still wasn't enough to clear the error. Only moving the install directory of the game fixed the problem. Hell, maybe I'll try that tonight. I guess I may as well. In the meantime, I'm still not entirely clear. Was what I tried to do in the first place even possible? Copying the RRM pieces and dropping them into GC and making a new esp using just the standard construction set? Also, if you don't mind me asking, what would have made the structure of the RMM interior disappear? That was my first effort- taking the RMM interior and making a copy of it that opened right into the GC main hall- but while its objects (and the entirety of the GC interior) were normal; the copied GC lost all walls and floor when I tried to test it in-game. Why did that happen? Was that my proof that combining mods in this manner doesn't work?