Snowden and the NSA

[JimboUK]

If Snowden had stayed in the U.S he wouldn't have been able to tell us much of what he has, he'd be cut off behind bars. Snowden has done the right thing, he shouldn't be punished for it and if avoiding that punishment means going overseas then so be it. The real betrayers are the politicians and spooks who have betrayed the trust of the people they're supposed to serve, they're the ones who should be on trial.

[rizon72]

The only real problem I have with this entire situation, is other countries condemning the USA. They all do it. As for Snowden, I'm conflicted, I see both sides of the story. So I think he should be given the medal of honor while being tried as a traitor.

[HeyYou]

 

 

Also, when you say, "people all over the place" consider Snowden as a traitor, that's not necessarily true... there are plenty who consider him a patriot (within the US) and multitudes more abroad consider him a hero.

 

A poll was done across the nation recently where about 35% of the nation considers Snowden a traitor. Just because It is not a majority of the nation doesn't exclude the fact that a lot of people believe Snowden has committed treason.

 

I personally do not think he has committed treason but also do not think Snowden is a patriot or a hero. Snowden is a coward. A true patriot does not flee the country in fear to be held accountable for their actions. Also a true hero would not hide and seek asylum in countries that have less civil liberties than the U.S.A. undermining Snowden's original cause.

 

If Snowden was a true hero or patriot he would have accepted what he has done and face any consequences including imprisonment or worst if he truly believes what he did was right.

 

Ok, lets think about this a bit.....

 

Our government does something that most folks don't really approve of, that has questionable constitutionality/legality.

 

A man 'blows the whistle', and informs the public about what said government is doing.

 

Now, do you seriously expect that the government is going to think this guy did the population a favor by blowing the lid off what they were doing? Would YOU trust the very people you were blowing the whistle on to give you a fair trial??

 

Basically, what this boils down to is: Do you think what the government was doing was "OK". I personally, do NOT think so. Obama is using "the ends justify the means" argument for compromising our civil liberties, in the EXACT same way that Bush used it to justify torture. (yes, waterboarding IS torture. Don't think so? Try it out once. I am quite sure you will change your mind.)

 

So what would you expect him to do? Hang around, and get a trial he KNOWS will have a foregone conclusion? (guilty of whatever they decide to charge him with.) Flee to a country that has 'equal' civil liberties? (I would point out that those that fall in to this category would ship him right back here in a heartbeat. Kinda self-defeating there, don't ya think?) Or, go someplace that DOESN'T have an extradition treaty with the US, regardless of what other problems said country may have?

[colourwheel]

 

Ok, lets think about this a bit.....

 

Our government does something that most folks don't really approve of, that has questionable constitutionality/legality.

 

A man 'blows the whistle', and informs the public about what said government is doing.

 

Now, do you seriously expect that the government is going to think this guy did the population a favor by blowing the lid off what they were doing? Would YOU trust the very people you were blowing the whistle on to give you a fair trial??

 

If Snowden was trying to be a real hero or patriot he would face "any" consequences and not flee. If Snowden "blew the whistle" and stayed in the U.S.A. to be tried in court for what he did this whole debate would be a completely different story.

 

Even if you think Snowden did the right thing to inform the public what our government is really up to does not dissolve the fact of his actions after bringing the info to light. His actions after him "blowing the whistle" are more cowardly than heroic and hardly amount to being a person who is a patriot seeking asylum in countries where their governments could care less about civil liberties.

Edited July 15, 2013 by colourwheel

[TRoaches]

@colourwheel: Was Mark Felt a coward? What about Daniel Ellsberg? According to your definition of "coward" they both are because they both attempted to avoid prosecution for their whistleblowing. In fact, they both tried to remain anonymous, while Snowden has never tried to hide his identity. If Snowden is a coward then Felt and Ellsberg are both even bigger cowards, right?

 

Martyrdom is not a prerequisite for heroism. Saying that someone who avoids prosecution is a coward makes no sense at all. Felt and Ellsberg both were responsible for leaks that changed the course of history at great risk to themselves, and they were attacked in the same ways that Snowden is being attacked now.

[colourwheel]

@Troaches: Did Mark Felt or Daniel Ellsberg Flee the country seeking asylum after what they did? Did either of them leak other NSA secrets to use as leverage to not be touched?

 

Mark Felt and Daniel Ellsberg are stories in themselves. You can't equate what Snowden has done compared to either of your examples in my opinion.

Edited July 15, 2013 by colourwheel

[TRoaches]

@Troaches: Did Mark Felt or Daniel Ellsberg Flee the country seeking asylum after what they did?

 

Both Felt and Ellsberg attempted to remain anonymous. Is this, in your opinion, less "cowardly" than fleeing the country? If Snowden had anonymously released his information would you still consider him a coward?

 

You avoided answering the question: Were Felt and Ellsberg Cowards?

[colourwheel]

Just to make you happy Troaches yes in my opinion they were cowards too. :P

[TRoaches]

The Vietnamese people who avoided being carpet-bombed because of Ellsberg's leak would probably disagree.

[colourwheel]

The Vietnamese people who avoided being carpet-bombed because of Ellsberg's leak would probably disagree.

 

Just because I think how someone went about something as being cowardly doesn't mean I think what they did was or wasn't wrong. You seem to be assuming just because I think someone a coward means they are bad.

Edited July 15, 2013 by colourwheel