Snowden and the NSA

[Lisnpuppy]

There lies the dig, Robin. I mean for instance....President/Prime Minister X says in their running for office that they do not support drones or spying on American (or whoever) citizens. Then they get into office and the head of the CIA or MI5 (or whatever spooks you all got going) comes in with a big folder and says, "Mr. So-and-so there is a few things you should know..."

 

Then their tune changes.

 

Of course its all classified and so we don't know and assume the worst...or don't care think it should never be done ever.

 

How a nation deals with its enemies is a complex thing. Secrecy and information is extremely important....for governments and for the people. The fact is that the citizenry (right or wrong) do not trust the government anymore. The problem is that they have healthy and educated skepticism...the problem is the trust or distrust comes from the little sound bytes you describe. People don't know, don't understand how much of this works, not because information isn't available widely..but that they are not interested in learning.

 

I don't think the things have been the same in the US since Nixon. That was the beginning of the end of trust for America and to us I think, it all comes back to the President. Even if its not. However the President has gained more power over the years (or at least influenced more power) and when things are secret people look at the President and wonder what he is hiding, even if he hides something legitimate.

 

Only history can tell us if these secrets were worth the price being paid for them. Government could not do business in foreign policy or safety without massive secrets. It won't work and to think that we can and should know everything is naive at best. Those secrets are harder and harder to keep with the way government itself does business (their own deliberate leaks) and how it seems more people are willing to flap their lips for one reason or another. I would like to think Snowden acted on to bring to light something he really thought was bad for "the people" and not for some other more nefarious and narcissistic purpose. That however is rare.

 

If we decide we want the government and everyone else to have to treat our information with more...respect..then we have to do it first. Our information should be treated like a commodity...like any other asset. I doubt the government even has to push those envelopes very hard to find out things about people since most of us seem willing to blab anything and everything on the net. Technology moves faster than legislature...always. If we want to protect ourselves then we, "the people" need to step in and effect the legislative changes needed to protect ourselves and our information. "The People" are the last and best watchdog. We must be educated to how things work now and what the government needs to do its business. Most people don't want to do that.

 

Thomas Jefferson said in 1782, "Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories. And to render them safe, their minds must be improved to a certain degree."

[TRoaches]

The big issue with the spying is the potential for abuse. Snowden has been getting the most press lately, but the fact is there have been many other whistleblowers who have been trying for years to bring attention to this, and some of them were in much higher positions than Snowden. Russ Tice was talking about this stuff back in 2005. He has been given a few mentions in the news lately because of the Snowden story, and this quote from a recent interview illustrates perfectly why this domestic spying is a problem:

 

 

Tice: Okay. They went after–and I know this because I had my hands literally on the paperwork for these sort of things–they went after high-ranking military officers; they went after members of Congress, both Senate and the House, especially on the intelligence committees and on the armed services committees and some of the–and judicial. But they went after other ones, too. They went after lawyers and law firms. All kinds of–heaps of lawyers and law firms. They went after judges. One of the judges is now sitting on the Supreme Court that I had his wiretap information in my hand. Two are former FISA court judges. They went after State Department officials. They went after people in the executive service that were part of the White House–their own people. They went after antiwar groups. They went after U.S. international–U.S. companies that that do international business, you know, business around the world. They went after U.S. banking firms and financial firms that do international business. They went after NGOs that–like the Red Cross, people like that that go overseas and do humanitarian work. They went after a few antiwar civil rights groups. So, you know, don’t tell me that there’s no abuse, because I’ve had this stuff in my hand and looked at it. And in some cases, I literally was involved in the technology that was going after this stuff. And you know, when I said to [former MSNBC show host Keith] Olbermann, I said, my particular thing is high tech and you know, what’s going on is the other thing, which is the dragnet. The dragnet is what Mark Klein is talking about, the terrestrial dragnet. Well my specialty is outer space. I deal with satellites, and everything that goes in and out of space. I did my spying via space. So that’s how I found out about this.

 

Collins: Now Russ, the targeting of the people that you just mentioned, top military leaders, members of Congress, intelligence community leaders and the–oh, I’m sorry, it was intelligence committees, let me correct that–not intelligence community, and then executive branch appointees. This creates the basis, and the potential for massive blackmail.

 

Tice: Absolutely! And remember we talked about that before, that I was worried that the intelligence community now has sway over what is going on. Now here’s the big one. I haven’t given you any names. This was is summer of 2004. One of the papers that I held in my hand was to wiretap a bunch of numbers associated with, with a 40-something-year-old wannabe senator from Illinois. You wouldn’t happen to know where that guy lives right now, would you? It’s a big white house in Washington, DC. That’s who they went after. And that’s the president of the United States now.

 

 

This article includes the video of the interview from which that quote is taken and also mentions William Binney, another whistleblower who ranked much higher than Snowden and leaked similar information. If we assume that there is at least some truth in Tice's statements then it becomes very obvious that the domestic spying programs are being abused, or that there is at least massive potential for abuse. It very well may be that the programs have been used to avert terrorist attacks, but if they have also been used to gather blackmail material against supreme court justices, mebers of congress, and the sitting president then it really is debatable whether it is worth it. Very few people have died or been injured in terrorist attacks, but a compromised judicial, legislative, or executive branch (or all three, yikes) has the potential to cause incalculable damage.

[colourwheel]

Ok now I didn't ever intend to get into this discussion because regaurdless that this info has been leaked now I hardly see it as shocking news since this has been going on for over a decade. Ever since 2001 and the evolution of technologies I could already see an Orwellian future happening.

 

If we start to worry about "potential for abuse" for anything you might as well start to be paraniod about people driving cars, acquiring firearms, holding your money in a bank, etc... Because there is a potential for abuse when you talk about almost anything.

 

Do I think what they are doing is right? no! but if you start to worry about potential for abuse for anything you might as well leave the country and hide out in an isolated island away from technology, everyone, and everything.

Edited June 24, 2013 by colourwheel

[TRoaches]

When it comes to things like money and power the mere existence of potential for abuse almost guarantees that the abuse will occur. There is a big difference between the examples of abuse that you give (driving cars, banks, etc) and the ability to gather surveillance on congresspeople, justices, or the President. The difference is that there is much more to be gained by abusing an all-seeing information dragnet without oversight than there is to be gained by abusing a car or a gun.

[colourwheel]

 

The difference is that there is much more to be gained by abusing an all-seeing information dragnet without oversight than there is to be gained by abusing a car or a gun.

 

There is much more to be gained by abusing an all-seeing information dragnet without oversight than there is to be gained by abusing a car or a gun? Do you know this for a fact? I hardly can see how this kind of statement can actaully be justified since there are beyond count gained by abuse of just guns alone...

Edited June 24, 2013 by colourwheel

[Beriallord]

This wasn't really news to me because I've suspected this has been going on for some time.

 

If you want any security on the internet to keep them from tracking you then pay for a VPN that doesn't keep any logs, and switch your IP every day.

 

And use a prepaid cell phone, no contract, or any paperwork at all that can tie that phone to you. They got models of phones that don't have GPS trackers in them.

 

 

Also the new Utah data center they are building is going to have a 5 Zettabyte capacity (over 5 billion terabytes). That is enough space to store all data in the world.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Beriallord

[TRoaches]

@colourwheel: I know for a fact that a single person with a gun can cause a small amount of damage but is relatively powerless compared to a congressperson, justice, or president, and that if the integrity of any of the aforementioned government officials is compromised due to blackmail using information obtained via domestic surveillance they could cause immense damage to our society due to the level of power that they wield.

 

Consider this hypothetical scenario: The supreme court is making a ruling about arms export law. A nefarious arms manufacturer stands to lose or gain $300B depending on the decision that the court makes. The company knows that there are four justices who will likely rule in their favor, and five who will likely rule against them. An executive at the arms company has an old "friend" in the intelligence services. He is willing to pay this friend $500M in clean untraceable funds if he can use his resources to sway a single justice in favor of the arms manufacturer. This friend consults the accumulated surveillance data on the justices and finds someone's weakness or indiscretion. Let's say he finds that one of the justices is an adulterer, and this intelligence operative makes an unannounced visit to the justice. He shows the justice the proof of his adultery, and offers a choice: You could rule in favor of our friend the arms manufacturer, or this could be all over the news tomorrow. The justice agrees, the ruling goes in favor of the arms dealer. They make their $300B windfall minus the $500M they paid for the rigged ruling, and some war-torn country gets a shipment of shiny new weapons that were previously banned from export.

 

THAT is why domestic spying without oversight is a bad idea.

[colourwheel]

This wasn't really news to me because I've suspected this has been going on for some time.

 

If you want any security on the internet to keep them from tracking you then pay for a VPN that doesn't keep any logs, and switch your IP every day.

 

And use a prepaid cell phone, no contract, or any paperwork at all that can tie that phone to you. They got models of phones that don't have GPS trackers in them.

 

 

Also the new Utah data center they are building is going to have a 5 Zettabyte capacity (over 5 billion terabytes). That is enough space to store all data in the world.

 

@Beriallord you almost forgot to tell people to stock up on bottle water and food, acquire a ham radio that runs on a turning wheel, and start to buy gold bullion instead of paper money, as well as don't forget to increase your fire arms count to atleast over 100 handguns and rifles with enough ammo to hold off anyone who comes after any of your food and/or gold. /sarcasm ;D

 

@Traoches I was never advocating what they were doing was good. i think what they are doing is BAD! I am just saying I am not worrying about the government, or a congressman, justice, or the president is going to blackmail me using information obtained via domestic surveillance to cause immense damage to our society due to the level of power that they wield. :teehee:

Edited June 24, 2013 by colourwheel

[ginnyfizz]

Because something is happening and has been so doing for a very long time does not make it right. One of my oft quoted quotes alert....

 

"Members of the jury, unless you are satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty of the crimes of which he/she is accused, then you must find them not guilty".

 

This wholesale sweeping up of data implies that the sacred principle of the presumption of innocence has been abolished and that without reference to Parliament here at any rate, which also implies that our Parliamentary democracy is in an even more parlous state than even I thought. Combine this with the fact that courts can now sit in secret with people not being allowed to hear the evidence against them, and therefore not prepare a defence, it looks very ugly indeed to me.

 

Robin, I have had family members killed in terrorist attacks and I say that this grotesque and frightening level of surveillance will destroy more lives than it saves. The Dai Kellys of this world will continue to die "in mysterious circumstances" but the fanatic terrorists will get away with their murdering ways, whilst this data collected will be used on trivialities such as reporting people for overloading their wheelie bins, telling minor porkies about their residence in order to get kids into a certain school catchment area, etc, etc.

[colourwheel]

 

Combine this with the fact that courts can now sit in secret with people not being allowed to hear the evidence against them, and therefore not prepare a defence, it looks very ugly indeed to me.

 

That can maybe happen in your country but in america that would be concidered evidence being held back in court and can't be used against someone unless it is shared with the defence.