Unrealistic expecations on modders.

[dangman4ever]

You honestly don't see why people don't want others to use their work for their own work?

 

Also, there are plenty of fantastic mods out there that's been based on the works of others. Because again, people actually ASKED for permission. It's not a hard process to do.

Entitlement? Not at all! If I get my modding off the ground, and I in tend to do something, I fully want others to build upon the things I bring to the table. The notion that one can see farther by standing on the shoulders of giants is a well established principle in other circles, I don't see why it should be different among modders. What exists exists by the common good, and only is justified in the expansion of the common good, in this case, better mod experiences. There's a synergy that comes from this remixing and sampling and building upon that should not be ignored or downplayed. And one should not confuse laziness versus efficiency: one only has so much energy to promote to one's pursuits, and using any responsible shortcut to achieve greater excellence per unit of energy isn't selfish, it is the means by which the great whole is more gloriously illuminated. See: everything Issac Newton ever wrote. Different field, same principle.

 

As for the policies, although I believe they are wrongheaded, they are what they are. I am speaking in principles alone, and never pretended to something more concrete.

Edited October 24, 2013 by dangman4ever

[DogtoothCG]

You and I aren't in disagreement about policy here. I don't have to like the rules to play by them. I do wish Bethesda would release asset packs that people could link to (and buy for a couple of bucks through things like Steam), and that way I could play a mod where all the Brahmin are replaced by cows and MMM could include not only iguanas, but deer as well (FO3 is in the mid Atlantic).

 

My complaint, in original, is not about ownership, but how to build a mod, to make all the assets yourself is ludicrous, when those assets already exists or could be simply modified from other sources. This allows a modder to get into the meat of a mod, which is design and play. I am however thinking in terms of assets and tile sets, not whole weapons or levels or such. That may be a fundamental difference in scope. If for instance I wanted to borrow the 'Angel City' Set from the author of the Librarian, you bet your butt I'd ask for permission even if I could take freely.

 

What I'm actually getting at is that someone like me thinks in the grandest scope: overhauls. I'd like nothing more than to replace Rivet City as it stands with the USS Abraham Lincoln. Why? Because I wouldn't muddle whether Rivet City was an active aircraft Carrier in 2077, take off the planes, and people would know a late 20th century carrier was a museum piece. For a place like Freeside, I'd want it to look more like a bustling third world slum, with fruit carts and book dealers, and dens of inequity chalked full of slavged and cleaned up crap. Make Freeside worthy of 'Trader's Life.' I need top think more about looking at Nat Geo pictures of third world markets and where to put the assets than to think about building laundry lines, and carts salvaged from the backs of cars like Fallout, or building the pre-war restored assets so the city looked filled and on the way back up, and not like a barely inhabited suburb of Mogadishu.

 

I should be spending time studying what a failed state and rebuilding failed state looks like in terms of clothes, and food and economy, and how that factors in with Hoover Dam proving constant cheap power and the replicator vending machines of the pre-war (The Sierra Madre were the most versatile, by according to Elijah, this self assembly mechanism was a common old world convenience. which in turn explains the Vending machines still having drinks in them: they are still assembling them). I should be thinking about how goods get in and out, things like that. I can tell you one thing, the Kings need to be a LOT heavier armed than they are to be the local warlords. They have to act as the cops anyplace they rule the roost.

 

It is morally speaking one thing to create a total ripoff of something else, and to take pre-existing ideas and fling them in totally new and novel directions. Not only should people not have to reinvent the wheel, they shouldn't reinvent the wheel for kicks.

 

Let me see if I can simply clarify your statement, and defuse this whole shebang.

 

What you are stating is:

Your issue is not that modders do not have a right state what other can or cannot do with a mod, be it art, programming, or design.

 

Your issue, is that there are very few modders out there who give out blanket permission, forcing you to go through the run around to get something done because everyone wants a PM, credits, and a link to the original file, which becomes increasingly complicated if the original author is no longer available on the site.

 

In conclusion, you are simply stating that you wish more people would allow a general redistribution clause, under fair use, so that you can have access to all the awesome sauce that you want to include, but do not yet have the skills to do so, so that you can release something that in turn, you believe would make at least one persons game that much better.

 

Is that correct?

[Welovefallout]

Getting endorsements is a numbers game - the more downloads, the more endorsements - as long as the mod is actually considered useful by those downloaders - So, to get more endorsements, you need to increase your downloads. I see a lot of new modders who just don't understand how important the presentation is . I have seen "Here is my mod, download it." as the entire description - guess how many downloads that one got.

 

A good description with just a few good pics can do wonders for your downloads. Pay attention to the lighting in the pics and try to show what it is that makes your house unique. A pic of the outside, showing the approach, then one or more of the inside - well lighted showing some of the interior features. If it is in an out of the way location, a pic of the map will help.

 

As for the description, it's a house mod, so write it like a real estate advertisement. Sell them a house.

 

"A cozy bungalow sited in a picturesque location high in the Jerral mountains. It has all of the usual amenities, including lots of non respawning storage in a convenient layout that allows accessing all of the storage chests without running from one room to another to deposit all of your loot. There is plenty of room for companions as it has 4 bedrooms and is completely nav meshed. A workbench and forge are convenient but out of the way in the basement ..." - SELL them the house. :cool:

 

Basic concept for an effective mod description

1. In the first line tell WHAT it is - in this case, a house mod.

The other parts may not be in the same order

2. Tell where it is located

3. tell what makes it different from other house mods

4. list the basic amenities and features - without giving away any spoilers (assuming there are any to give away)

5. How do you acquire the house? ( the key is under the doormat, Kill the ogre who ate the previous owner to get the key etc.)

 

Be sure to list any DLCs, or other mods needed, known conflicts and possible future updates planned. And any special installation needed. And thank anyone who helped or was an inspiration. :thumbsup:

 

 

 

What I do for my weapons is that I usually include a full set of features of the weapon, stats, means of getting it, credits, permission, then links to my other mods.

[charwo]

Nekronom, yes. Generally that's right, and I don't have a problem tracking down authors much, except for those who have left.

 

Dangman, I see there are reasons, all of which are petty. This is an issue on control and those who want control should never have control. There is no just argument for control as an end in and of itself. In this case it is more compelling because all art is synergistic endeavor, and everyone builds on the work of others. It is selfish for any one person to gum up that process except for the protection of profit (and only for a time) and credit.

[dangman4ever]

Nekronom was trying to defuse the discussion and I was honestly going to leave it at that with your first paragraph. But then you wrote that second paragraph. So now I'm not interested in leaving things well enough alone.

 

So it's petty to not want your assets to be part of a mod with pornographic materials?

It's petty to not want your assets to be used in a mod that has questionable or extremely unethical aspects?

It's petty to not want your assets to be associated with a mod that'll significantly offend others?

It's petty to not want others to benefit financially off your work?

It's petty to not want other people to know that you did the work on that mod?

It's petty to want to know how and where the mod is being used?

It's petty to not want your mod to be used in a way you're uncomfortable with?

It's petty to not want your assets to be associated with something you're completely against?

 

I would agree that it would be petty if one was to say you can't use their assets because they don't like you as a person. But the reasons above are not petty.

 

It is absolutely disrespectful as well as illogical to say that that one should not have control over something THEY created. You say it's selfish for one person to want to hold onto control yet isn't selfish as well to tell someone they should give up total control of their mod just to make YOUR life easier? Isn't it selfish to to tell someone that you should also benefit from their hard work without their say-so while doing practically nothing for it or not even asking for it?

 

I should make this clear as well: I have open permissions as long as credit is given to me on all of the small mods I've done in the requests forum. So I'm not against the idea of sharing mod assets at all. I plan on having open permissions on an upcoming mod I'm making. But that is a choice I got to make. I choose to have open permissions on my mods. Your stance would make it so that I would not have that choice at all. That you have more control over my mod than I do in that you're forcing me to comply with what you think I should do with my own mod and assets. With the current instant copyright system in place, I always have the ability to choose what happens to my mods. Your stance robs people of that choice. Do you now see the key problem (well one of the problems anyway) I have with your stance?

 

In other words, no one is forcing you to hold onto the copyright under the current copyright system. But your philosophy means that someone is FORCING you to open up your copyright. Those who want to control other people's actions for their own gain should not be in control.

 

Nekronom, yes. Generally that's right, and I don't have a problem tracking down authors much, except for those who have left.

 

Dangman, I see there are reasons, all of which are petty. This is an issue on control and those who want control should never have control. There is no just argument for control as an end in and of itself. In this case it is more compelling because all art is synergistic endeavor, and everyone builds on the work of others. It is selfish for any one person to gum up that process except for the protection of profit (and only for a time) and credit.

Edited October 25, 2013 by dangman4ever

[LordCaptainCommander]

Well, since you didn't ask for my input I feel obliged to give it to you. I'm not a modder so its just my perspective as a person who uses mods.

 

I would say I don't see why you would be worried about endorsements, If your just learning anyhow. Furthermore if your going to mod you should only do it because its something you want to do, thats anything really, if your only doing it to get some sort of external approval then you'll always be disgruntled..ok enough of that.

 

Personally if it is a mod I am using I will try to leave some sort of feedback, but Its not like I owe it to the modder, or that they want to hear it anyhow. Reading the pages of some of the more popular mods especially sort of irritates me. Currently there is a rather popular monster mod on the nexus, the author spends his desc page talking to people like they are just too retarded to understand the magnificence of his work..and really, the mod sucks...beyond that, its completely retarded. When people suggest things on the post thread for the mod, he is insulting, he doesn't want to hear "there are a lot of problems with your mod, it also breaks immersion terrible". Well that can't be right can it? Noo, the mod is fine, the problem is everybody else!

 

Its good to keep things in perspective,I know to an author that mods represents long of hours of painstaking work, but nobody is making them do it, if your going to do something that you know has no material reward, and it will be subject to the tastes and opinions of many people, then you need to also accept and prepare for the likely reality that your mod might not be any good and nobody cares about it.

 

And you hit the nail on the head about houses. I don't think they many players consider them very important. Back in the oblivion days having the coolest house was the thing, less so in fo3, and now, i might not even bother to drop 100 caps for a room in novac. Just don't take it personal man, because unless your one of the high profile jackass authors i'm thinking of, then , well. its not. Ask for feedback , if you don't get it, then you have another , really a better option.

Just pm some of the more experienced modders on the forum and ask if they wouldn't mind taking a gander at it. Thought not programming related I work in a technical field myself dealing with robotics and automation, I don't think it matters whether your a modder or a carpenter, if its a technical area, then you can bet that the more experienced people in will be willing to , at the very least, point out all the things you don't know that they do know, and all the problems you could have avoided with the mod if only you knew the things that they know lol.

 

 

Let me not ramble anymore, All i'm trying to say is, if modding is something you want to do, then do it for that reason, and that reason alone. People are jerks, and the internet in particular is nothing more then a hive a scum and villainy. Do it to get better, and then get better, for you, and don't worry about the other stuff.

 

Oh, and when you get more experience, if you make a really big and popular mod, try not to come across as a self-entitled pissant lol.

Edited November 8, 2013 by LordCaptainCommander

[charwo]

Dangman, my good sir, an idea can be many things: it can be wrong, it can be right, it can be foolish, outlandish, nebbish or spiteful. What an idea cannot be is disrespectful. No, an idea that is received as disrespectful is merely perceived as such because the receiver is so emotionally wrapped around a countervailing idea they come to identify it as their own.

 

In this case, your idea is wrong. As in morally indefensible. You see, control and coercion are not inherently wrong: this is a silly idea promulgated by libertarians, just as pacifists promote a silly idea that violence is inherently bad. They are silly because they are not useful to the function of society which requires knowledge, labor and resources to be pooled and distributed appropriately. Capitalism is just one form of this pooling, and works only insofar that the pooling occurs. When the pooling stops, then capitalism must go as its reason for existence is not being fulfilled. It must be replaced with something far less pleasant and voluntary. This goes for all things great and small.

 

And so it goes to even modding assets. There are legitimate reasons for wanting control: however this discussion has eliminated due credit as well as the monetization angles. There’s nothing left. The belief that one should be able to dole out anything as a favor or prerogative is peevish, and wrongheaded. It is stroking the ego at the expense of the pooling that is critical to building the common good. And achievement the Common Good justifies all things when all other options have been exhausted. For the common good, land may be seized, assets may be auctioned off, men may be drafted, women forced to bear young, children may be enslaved. The notion of the autonomy and rights of the individual exist solely to promote the common good and if that autonomy is used to prevent the common good, then it must go. The ego of one must never interfere with the good of all.

 

In practice there are moderate, mutually beneficial compromises between the ego and the common good. But we’re dealing with theories and justifications.

 

That said, I’ve been away in large part because I’ve been looking at several mods from Fallout 3 and looking at them from a design standpoint. Quest for Heaven I and II stand out because with two exceptions, it’s entirely made from vanilla assets. It’s pretty incredible to look at, moreso when the last fact is at the fore of the mind. My thoughts do stem from the fact I hate the games Bethesda makes. I made the mistake of playing the Morrowind, and without Bethesda buying Fallout, I’d never make that mistake again. Coordinating, which is what I want so very desperately, is centered around creating a more tolerable gaming experience.

 

As a fan of Interplay’s Fallout titles, I miss the character-building descriptions, the vivid, DM like describing the look on a scarred man’s face or how the fade to black sexual encounter was like (based on your END and STR stats of course), or how you’d punch a guy in the head and it’s say ‘Raider takes 14 HP damage. He slumps to the floor, completely out of it. Goodnight Gracie!’ or firing a round into a woman’s crotch and it would say ‘Merc takes 450 HP damage as she screams in agony. She falls to the ground with a vastly reduced chance of ever bearing children.’

 

With that said, maybe there should be some kind of polling forum where people can submit project ideas and actually get feedback on from the community on whether these things are a good idea to pursue, possibly even attracting attention of those who could help in exchange for coauthor credit? It seems to be the biggest obstacle to having mods out is people feeling the projects would be ignored. It’s one thing o want to be a drama queen, and quite another to know that one’s efforts are useful and appreciated. It’s supposed to be a nice thought to do it simply because you like it, but we have a rod for doing something for the sheer self-fulfillment. That word is masturbation.

Edited November 22, 2013 by charwo

[dangman4ever]

Dude, you're not helping get your point across when you continually use that holier than thou attitude, passive-aggressive insults, condescending attitude, and "whats best for me should come at the expense of everyone's else" stance. Not to mention that your thought process in regards to the works and effort of others is bordering "Big Brother" in the sense that you're trying to show off that you know best ( a person who refuses to adapt their learning methods) over the people who are actually taking the time and effort to learn how to mod.

 

You can wax poetics and philosophize all you want. At the end of the day, you're still advocating to take control away from someone else in order to benefit you and you alone. I call bulls*** on your "greater good" argument when you have stated numerous times in this thread that you don't want to put in the hard work involved in a mod yet you still want access to everyone else's hard work for your own mod.

 

As for your forum idea, who's to say that people will actually go to that polling forum? Look at the requests forum. How many of the more well known and/or extensive modders here on the FNV Nexus actually show up there to answer requests? Plus read the Sticky in that forum:

If you get no response in your thread, it is usually an indication that:

A). The idea needs more elaboration/examples, or isn't very clear.

B). The idea isn't something which can be done within the game, or requires rare talents in the community.

C). The idea is one which is something that requires more work than anyone who might respond might be willing to offer.

D). The idea is one which nobody is particularly interested in the general idea.

E). The one posting the idea is exceptionally rude, demanding, or just plain thankless toward anyone who might respond.

F). All of the above.

Edited November 22, 2013 by dangman4ever

[charwo]

Actually, I apologize for the passive-aggressive tone of my last post. I meant to remain civil in spite of my passionate emotions on.....well, I'm very intense in all things. As for my position it's not "whats best for me should come at the expense of everyone's else," its "whats best for the whole society should come at the expense of any given member, and then if all other reasonable alternative exists." And in this case, I've been stating that nothing of actual value has been lost. In this context, nothing is lost on the part of the individual. Like literally, nothing, if money is not at stake and credit is given.

 

As for the subforum, that I'm not sure of. I would check it out as a curiosity, but I think the reason the current forum has so few hits is quality: the ideas for requests as not properly fleshed out, or lack the pictures to describe it thoroughly. I imagine a quality control would be necessary to avert the whole abandoned and ignored stack of posts.....or at least a way to show off those that aren't. Maybe a requirement of 300 words or a picture/picture link to post?

 

EDIT: That requirement only to start a thread, not to post to one thereafter.

Edited November 22, 2013 by charwo

[dangman4ever]

And I've been arguing numerous times that control is of value to people. You seem to gloss over the simple fact that humans want some form of control over their own work. Nothing you say to the average FNV modder is going to convince all of them to give up control of their assets in the name of some "greater good". Not to mention that the "greater good" is not automatically "good" since the definition of good can be easily warped.

 

Let's talk practical: What's the benefit of me giving up control of one of my mods so that'll end up being used in another mod with content that I absolutely abhor? Or a mod author whose stances on certain issues I find extremely horrible?

 

As for the forum, have a word count isn't useful since some mod ideas are very simple and don't require that many words to explain. Pictures should not be a major requirement considering that some many decent mods have been created from requests without a picture involved. Pictures are nice to have of course but they should not be a requirement.

 

In addition to what you've said about quality, it's also that many of those mod ideas are more or less crap and/or completely uninteresting even when fleshed out. Not to mention that many FNV modders are busy with their own projects and can't help others. IIRC, there's only like 3-4 people in Mod Requests forum that actually do carry out requests and only if the idea is worthwhile/easy to do.

 

What you have to do is create a way that encourages FNV modders to actually want to come out and put in the time and effort for other people's mods. It's ridiculously easy to suggest an idea for a mod than actually creating said mod.

 

With that said, one of the best ways I have seen people drum up help and support for their mod is by posting a picture of their mod work in progress in the Image share. Fallout Brazil, Willow, Firebase Zulu, Niner, NCR replacement, Novac Public Library, Wilhaven content pack, etc, are all examples of mod authors posting pictures of their actual work in progress and getting a ton of help from the community as a result. Of course this means that the mod authors actually have to put in time to do a mod.

Actually, I apologize for the passive-aggressive tone of my last post. I meant to remain civil in spite of my passionate emotions on.....well, I'm very intense in all things. As for my position it's not "whats best for me should come at the expense of everyone's else," its "whats best for the whole society should come at the expense of any given member, and then if all other reasonable alternative exists." And in this case, I've been stating that nothing of actual value has been lost. In this context, nothing is lost on the part of the individual. Like literally, nothing, if money is not at stake and credit is given.

 

As for the subforum, that I'm not sure of. I would check it out as a curiosity, but I think the reason the current forum has so few hits is quality: the ideas for requests as not properly fleshed out, or lack the pictures to describe it thoroughly. I imagine a quality control would be necessary to avert the whole abandoned and ignored stack of posts.....or at least a way to show off those that aren't. Maybe a requirement of 300 words or a picture/picture link to post?

 

EDIT: That requirement only to start a thread, not to post to one thereafter.

Edited November 22, 2013 by dangman4ever