Nelson Mandela ... a great legacy being tainted.

[JimboUK]

Communism, for all of its flaws, is not inherently evil in the same way that true race-based class separation is. It is natural that people who live under a system that is obsessed with a class separation would be drawn towards a philosophy that, at its most fundamental core, seeks to end class divisions. I don't fault them for that. The rest of the stuff that you are blaming on Mandela (crimes against whites, etc) was not Mandela's fault any more so than the atrocities committed against native Americans were the fault of George Washington.

 

In terms of UK interests South African Apartheid was preferable to Communism, Apartheid wasn't a threat to us, Communism was so it made sense to back the South African government.

[TRoaches]

doesn't mean there ain't people who did good things. I just don't like frauds, thiefs, murderers, looters, racists and demagoges.

I asked you to name an example. Can you do that? Bear in mind that if you do name one of these imaginary, untouchably pious people that you seem to believe actually exist I am going to rip them to pieces just to demonstrate that NOBODY has ever been perfect. Choose wisely!

Edited July 13, 2013 by TRoaches

[Platton]

 

doesn't mean there ain't people who did good things. I just don't like frauds, thiefs, murderers, looters, racists and demagoges.

I asked you to name an example. Can you do that? Bear in mind that if you do name one of these imaginary, untouchably pious people that you seem to believe actually exist I am going to rip them to pieces just to demonstrate that NOBODY has ever been perfect. Choose wisely!

 

What? Man i don't play these little games with you. Choose wisely my arm. What is this about? I demasked a few myths and now you lurk to criticise people that in my opinion had some positive influence? This isn't the highschool debating class, this is talk for grown ups. So no games, no distraction, no white-wash.

[TRoaches]

@Platton: Your post sounds an awful lot like "I am unable to produce an example of someone who, by my own standards, is an historical figure worthy of praise and is not a fraud". I didn't criticize anyone, and you have not expressed a positive opinion about anyone or mentioned anyone who had a positive influence.

 

You did not debunk any myths, but you did create a few new ones (i.e. King was an anti-communist Republican, etc). Well done!

[Platton]

Listen, i don't play these games with you. Finding some angels among the men isn't the topic here, the topic is about mandela and what people believe about him without even looking into the facts themselfs. In other words, bought into the fraud.

 

 

 

You did not debunk any myths, but you did create a few new ones (i.e. King was an anti-communist Republican, etc). Well done!

This isn't a myth. Not just his father was Republican but the million men march was also organized by a republican, where Luther gave his "i have a dream" speech.

See, for people who don't make the afford to inform themselfs about the topics they talk ofcourse i create "myths". Because their base of debate isn't knowing, its believing. So its just one myth against another myth. Or when you would show cavemen the effect of blackpowder thrown in fire. Yeah, cavemen don't know the formula behind simple things as blackpowder, so they create a myth for themself to at least believe to understand, the same way westerners these days see figures like Mandela, a hardcore communist racist. We have the facts, no need for "well your car is ugly to, neh neh neh" games.

[TRoaches]

Finding some angels among the men isn't the topic here, the topic is about mandela and what people believe about him without even looking into the facts themselfs.

The topic was about the way that people were utilizing and/or abusing Mandela's legacy. Some are tripping over themselves trying to attach themselves to him for personal gain. Others are jumping at the chance to ridicule or denounce him. You would be an example of the latter. The "facts" that you are sharing are more editorial than factual. His flaws, many and varied though they may be, do not negate his sacrifice or historical significance. You are claiming that they do, and that he is unworthy of any form of admiration. You even stooped to such a level of intellectual dishonesty that you compared him to mass-murdering tyrants and cult leaders. You are entitled to hold that opinion, but when you express it in a debate forum you are inviting others to dispute it.

 

 

This isn't a myth. Not just his father was Republican but the million men march was also organized by a republican, where Luther gave his "i have a dream" speech.

 

Your statement was not that King's father was a Republican or that the march was organized by Republicans. It was that King himself was a Republican. This is easily demonstrated to be false.

 

source 1

source 2

source 3

source 4

source 5

 

Notice that 4 of 5 of those references are to text that was written by King himself. Source 1 was not written by him, but does quote him. Can you produce a source that quotes him as saying anything even remotely similar to "lol j/k I'm Republican!" to dispute those five?

[Platton]

 

The topic was about the way that people were utilizing and/or abusing Mandela's legacy.

Hear that you people out there, don't abuse this guys legacy.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LbjX9ttnhkg/Tbluo6ApDpI/AAAAAAAABIg/kul9J_mX7b8/s1600/Mandela+Fidel.jpg

 

 

Your statement was not that King's father was a Republican or that the march was organized by Republicans. It was that King himself was a Republican. This is easily demonstrated to be false.

It doesn't proof it false at all. His inner circel were republicans, but when a Kennedy makes a few phonecalls to get you out of jail, you better keep quite when you refuse to make an endorsement. I doubt the authenticity of these letters. There is no way someone call tell me that the son of an republican pastor voted for the political arm of the KKK in a time where a republican president enforced the desegregation by the military. No way.

[TRoaches]

So your logic goes something like this:

A) Castro was a bad guy

B) Mandela met with Castro, and was photographed with him.

C) Castro == Mandela

D) Mandela was a bad guy

 

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/online/2013/7/3/1372849142471/President-Ronald-Reagan-w-007.jpg

 

A) Hissene Habre was a bad guy

B) Reagan met with Habre, and was photographed with him (and aided him while he committed mass murder)

C) Reagan == Habre

D) Reagan was a bad guy

 

Lets do another one!

 

http://antiwar.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/reaganmontt-e1369142686632.jpg

 

A) Efrain Rio Montt was a bad guy

B) Reagan met with Montt, and was photographed with him (and aided him while he committed mass murder)

C) Reagan == Montt

D) Reagan was a bad guy

 

Note that I don't really think these photos prove that Reagan was a bad guy. I'm just illustrating the silliness of posting a picture of someone meeting Castro and pretending like that means something significant.

 

I doubt the authenticity of these letters.

 

What about the excerpts from his autobiography?

 

There is no way someone call tell me that the son of an republican pastor voted for the political arm of the KKK in a time where a republican president enforced the desegregation by the military. No way.

 

What if that "someone" is the son of the Republican pastor himself, by his own hand in his autobiography?

Edited July 14, 2013 by TRoaches

[Platton]

 

So your logic goes something like this:

A) Castro was a bad guy

B) Mandela met with Castro, and was photographed with him.

C) Castro == Mandela

D) Mandela was a bad guy

And makes the communist greeting? (Raising fist) I mean for me this is like someone would do the Nazi salute. Should i show some more pictures of mandela raising his fists infront of hammer and sickle or while wearing these symbols?

I don't see Reagan arm in arm with these people doing political salutes.

 

 

Lets do another one!

Making up a straw man and than attack the straw man again. This is exactly the kind of behavior that i suspected when i said i don't play these highschool debating class games.

 

 

What about the excerpts from his autobiography?

Know what? I give you that, be happy with it. There is no point in it for me to argue with strawman arguments.

[TRoaches]

I mean for me this is like someone would do the Nazi salute.

 

Why? Communism itself does not advocate any of the bad things that Communist regimes have done. It is an economic theory, nothing more. Blaming communism for the atrocities of self-described communists is no different than blaming capitalism for the slavery committed by self-described capitalists. It is a flawed premise based on irrational fear instead of logic.

 

 

Should i show some more pictures of mandela raising his fists infront of hammer and sickle or while wearing these symbols?

 

If you want to, but I don't think anyone has disputed that Mandela was a communist, or at least had communist leanings.

 

I don't see Reagan arm in arm with these people doing political salutes.

 

He gave them free weapons and intelligence aid paid for with our taxes, which they used for the mass murder of civilians and the pursuit of personal gain and power consolidation. I consider this much more deplorable and immoral than hugs, hand shakes, or salutes.