Do Cathedrals actually exist?

[MarchinBunny]

 

They kept referring to their announcement which shows that they are not interested in any dialogue. Arguments of any kind are irrelevant to them. From my point of view, this is not a dialogue. It's called ignorance.

 

To get back to the subject. As we now know, you support the cathedral way of modding. Completly fine. Get some folks and do it. But don't force others joining. Everyone is free to make their own decision. Even if iyou can't agree, you must accept it.

 

They kept answering the questions that were being asked, it just so happens the answers were already given in the announcement lol.

As for forcing, no one is forcing anyone to go along with the cathedral way of modding. I not once suggested it should ever be forced. So I agree with you on that.

[Raptilize]

 

 

And see, you just proved my point. Instead of commenting on the topic at hand, you want to run off on your tangent.

 

 

 

 

Do not quote the bunny

Do not make eye contact with the bunny

Do not feed the bunny

 

 

I live vicariously through the bunny.

 

I'm not sure how the discussion over this thing being a cathedral or a parlor has any relevance to what is going on here on Nexusmods. It just seems like another way to box up a thing into some kind of socially identifiable moniker with a hashtag in front of it. "Oh, please pity me, I'm under the influence of a hashtag!" Those kind of arguments always seem to lack any sort of original thinking and instead hitch up to the bandwagon. I think for the most part its dumb and pointless and serves no real purpose other than entertainment, prove me wrong. I mean I got a real momentary kick out of posting in some of the other closed down threads but since I'm a sensible person I wasn't under any misconception that I was contributing to something that would ultimately lead to change by adding my 2 cents, but even some of those arguments where better made. I think anyone posting in a thread like this that thinks otherwise is a big fat liar who first and foremost is lying to themselves. You really shouldn't worry about what I think, though. Cuz thats how hashtags are born.

[AGreatWeight]

Thanks to everyone here who actually contributed to this discussion. After researching further into the matter (and scouring the 'modders resources section' in numerous games & looking outside of the Nexusmods platform) I've arrived at a conclusion. Whilst the idea of 'cathedral' mods is, in principle, a noble goal, it's also clearly utopian. Most people seem to agree that the biggest problem with this idea of 'cathedral' modding are the fanatics who demand that everyone should bow down & subscribe to this belief. I've come across far too many individuals in the last several years with this repugnant attitude towards modders & their creations.

 

We've had fifteen years since Wyre's manifesto regarding the subject, and based on the available evidence, there isn't a single 'cathedral' mod in existence; modders resources with open permissions would be more appropriately described as 'barnyard' mods, doors wide open for anyone to walk in and take what they want. Besides, there's as many tutorials as there are actual mod assets in that category.

 

None of them fit what Wyre was clearly alluding to, specifically -

"In the Cathedral view, modding is viewed as being like a joint effort to build a cathedral. Individually, our contributions may be small – and may not be worth doing for themselves. But by each person contributing something, we construct something larger and more worthwhile than any of us could do on our own." (emphasis mine)

That hasn't happened in over fifteen years (which is more than ample time for them to have materialized in the mod 'community') Cathedral's are a fiction, they simply do not exist.

 

Moderators, you can go ahead and close this thread. I've no interest in seeing it get utterly derailed.

[HeyYou]

Thanks to everyone here who actually contributed to this discussion. After researching further into the matter (and scouring the 'modders resources section' in numerous games & looking outside of the Nexusmods platform) I've arrived at a conclusion. Whilst the idea of 'cathedral' mods is, in principle, a noble goal, it's also clearly utopian. Most people seem to agree that the biggest problem with this idea of 'cathedral' modding are the fanatics who demand that everyone should bow down & subscribe to this belief. I've come across far too many individuals in the last several years with this repugnant attitude towards modders & their creations.

 

We've had fifteen years since Wyre's manifesto regarding the subject, and based on the available evidence, there isn't a single 'cathedral' mod in existence; modders resources with open permissions would be more appropriately described as 'barnyard' mods, doors wide open for anyone to walk in and take what they want. Besides, there's as many tutorials as there are actual mod assets in that category.

 

None of them fit what Wyre was clearly alluding to, specifically -

"In the Cathedral view, modding is viewed as being like a joint effort to build a cathedral. Individually, our contributions may be small – and may not be worth doing for themselves. But by each person contributing something, we construct something larger and more worthwhile than any of us could do on our own." (emphasis mine)

That hasn't happened in over fifteen years (which is more than ample time for them to have materialized in the mod 'community') Cathedral's are a fiction, they simply do not exist.

 

Moderators, you can go ahead and close this thread. I've no interest in seeing it get utterly derailed.

:)

 

I suppose, you could consider every individuals game a "cathedral" as it is made up of the efforts of many others. :D Everyone builds their own personal cathedral with their personalized game.

 

Yeah, not really what Wrye was talking about, but hey, I liked the idea. :D

[AGreatWeight]

:smile:

 

 

I suppose, you could consider every individuals game a "cathedral" as it is made up of the efforts of many others. :D Everyone builds their own personal cathedral with their personalized game.

 

Yeah, not really what Wrye was talking about, but hey, I liked the idea. :D

 

I see your point of view, that's one way to think about it! Now imagine if Dark0ne makes an announcement in a few months where Nexusmods officially state that 'mod collections' are to be referred to as 'cathedrals' :ohmy: :laugh:

[SkyLover264]

 

:smile:

 

 

I suppose, you could consider every individuals game a "cathedral" as it is made up of the efforts of many others. :D Everyone builds their own personal cathedral with their personalized game.

 

Yeah, not really what Wrye was talking about, but hey, I liked the idea. :D

 

I see your point of view, that's one way to think about it! Now imagine if Dark0ne makes an announcement in a few months where Nexusmods officially state that 'mod collections' are to be referred to as 'cathedrals' :ohmy: :laugh:

 

Please don't give them any more ideas.

[kittybrod]

 

Thanks to everyone here who actually contributed to this discussion. After researching further into the matter (and scouring the 'modders resources section' in numerous games & looking outside of the Nexusmods platform) I've arrived at a conclusion. Whilst the idea of 'cathedral' mods is, in principle, a noble goal, it's also clearly utopian. Most people seem to agree that the biggest problem with this idea of 'cathedral' modding are the fanatics who demand that everyone should bow down & subscribe to this belief. I've come across far too many individuals in the last several years with this repugnant attitude towards modders & their creations.

 

We've had fifteen years since Wyre's manifesto regarding the subject, and based on the available evidence, there isn't a single 'cathedral' mod in existence; modders resources with open permissions would be more appropriately described as 'barnyard' mods, doors wide open for anyone to walk in and take what they want. Besides, there's as many tutorials as there are actual mod assets in that category.

 

None of them fit what Wyre was clearly alluding to, specifically -

"In the Cathedral view, modding is viewed as being like a joint effort to build a cathedral. Individually, our contributions may be small – and may not be worth doing for themselves. But by each person contributing something, we construct something larger and more worthwhile than any of us could do on our own." (emphasis mine)

That hasn't happened in over fifteen years (which is more than ample time for them to have materialized in the mod 'community') Cathedral's are a fiction, they simply do not exist.

 

Moderators, you can go ahead and close this thread. I've no interest in seeing it get utterly derailed.

:smile:

 

I suppose, you could consider every individuals game a "cathedral" as it is made up of the efforts of many others. :D Everyone builds their own personal cathedral with their personalized game.

 

Yeah, not really what Wrye was talking about, but hey, I liked the idea. :D

 

If you think about it, Most games today ARE part of the cathedral idea, because they will often build upon ideas and resources done by previous games. IE, the first game to go first person showed that it could be done, then there were others popping up all over, and so on.

 

 

 

To me, I think the biggest 'barrier' to cathedral, is that once you put your mod out there with 'free to use' you never know where that mod will show up. Like someone earlier said they didn't want their mod used for a brothel type mod. Or at least their name associated with it. People tend to remember basically the last thing they see. So, if your mod is taken and used by a lot of 'bad' modders, and people see your name associated with them, it doesn't matter if your mod is by far better than those, they just remember 'well their name was associated with THOSE mods, they can't be that great'. Even if your mod is then taken up and used by much better modders, your name could then be 'hidden' among a lot of other modder's names, thus again, leaving the last mod the people have seen your name associated with being the 'bad' ones.

 

I know years ago I did some modders resources for MOrrowind, and was approached by one of the big mods of the time to use some of my work. My name is still associated with that work (and I am proud of it, if only I could remember what it was called... *rolls eyes*), but so are a lot of others, many who did/contributed a LOT more than I did, which means my name is hidden. Most people probably never even see my name on that mod, but if my stuff had been utilized by mods I don't agree with, or aren't the best, that is what people would tend to remember of my efforts. This can hamper further efforts by that person, because they don't get the feed back since everyone is dismissing them as 'mediocre' because that is the type of mods their name got associated with (and yeah, it could 'make' their modding career by becoming associated with a 'grand and wonderful' mod, but the likely hood of that happening is much less than it being utilized by mediocre or just outright 'bad' mods)

[sunshinenbrick]

I would assume it is called 'cathedral' because it loosely reflects how most cathedrals (irl) are built, as in they are built, or added on to, at different times by different people. I suppose it perhaps also might try hold the ideal that people are working for a purpose beyond commercial means, but that it doesn't forbid it - I don't know, I have never read this supposed 'manifesto' but have naturally adopted this so-called 'cathedral' and 'parlour' type approach.

I appreciate and find advantages to both of these models and they are not mutually exclusive nor are they exclusive to the 'modding scene', although they are obviously unique in their particular integration into their overall system. The problem appears rooted in the seemingly persistent oversimplification (as seems to be the case in so many walks of life) of how the whole system works i.e. modding games, inter-dependence and integration into wider ecosystems that makes it 'cathedral ' by nature - as many have alluded to even down to individual game setups, and not to mention the cascades of licensing supernovae that make the whole thing both possible and a legal minefield at the same time. EDIT: although you could also argue the system remains within the 'palour' of the original developer

Stealing commercial resources and the selling or proprietorial use of open, free or non-commercial resources are both forms of piracy - and it is often only because of some form of trickle-up (and some trickle-down) that most of this is viable and able to exist to much of the extent that it does. Again, oversimplification and drive towards being able to 'click 'n' play' or not having to 'fix broken mods' leads to ignorance, general misinformation, and a depreciation and lack of the will to work towards rewards - which in modding doesn't usually culminate solely in an end goal or final transaction.

 

From reading the comments in and around this thread and others related to how mods should be shared etc... leads me to the conclusion that there are some rather large chasms and voids of misunderstanding as to how mods are made, the creative process, copyright and licensing, and a general understanding of each other as people with personal needs and limitations. This is of course true in the grander scale of things but appears particularly acute in the modding scene for numerous reasons including how new an 'industry' it is, but also because of the somewhat unique way it is usually tied to the owner of the base product i.e. the original game. Other pieces of art or products don't face this sort of perverse internalised market so people can be rewarded for their efforts more fairly, modders on the other hand are often the only ones not making money.

 

The most recent developments seem to cement this disconnection between the user (potential modder to be) and the modder (user who developed some knowledge and skill) as it more often than not appears to remove the modder from the equation, or assumes that they are their to simply provide what the user wants, or to improve 'their experience' - so as to increase 'clicks' and 'dollars' it seems. Perhaps there might be as much long-term reward and provision of an overall better 'user experience' for the users, modders, and intermediaries if things were not rigged towards basic lowest common denominators but rather towards encouraging engagement, awareness, appreciation, and a desire to be curious and creative.

[Wolfstorm]

Beyond Skyrim series (Bruma is the first released).

 

 

That project is the epitome of parlour modding. It is what happens when you apply it collectively, and people lose sense of what "cathedral" meant originally. Now a collective parlour is called "cathedral" for "convenience", when we all know what happens when someone releases content in the other provinces.

As for the OP: the Nexus abandoned the cathedral model in 2016, when they adopted the permissions system. Hence why you don't see cathedral mod authors grouping together: we are "excommunicated" from each other. We can't even talk about our viewpoints, because it is "anathema" here. I hope that's "religious" enough for you.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Wolfstorm

[DoctaSax]

@Wolfstorm

About half the files you have here on Nexus say people need to ask permission, or are outright forbidden, to modify, convert or reupload them elsewhere. I must admit that kinda bugs me coming from someone who keeps saying how much of a cathedralist he is.