Can't Learn to Mod: A rant

[charwo]

I need to get something off my chest: I really don't like a lot of New Vegas. That's a hell of a lot better than anything I can say about Fallout 3. I hated Fallout 3 back when it was called Morrowind. Nothing but FedX quests and endless fights, its unplayable without extensive modding. It's still a wonderful looking soulless Bethesda game, and fighting gets tedious REAL quick, so there's no real point for exploring: there's nothing worth finding. Not the interactive story machine I expected with a name like Fallout on it. New Vegas has a lot of the same problems, but it has a story that I can sink my teeth into. Most of what I loathe about New Vegas though is cosmetic: start with the fact that I-15 should be completely clean and pristine as its been a major supply line for a decade, there should be a multitude of working trucks, even if abandoned on the long 15, and there should be at least one working rail line that runs off the map into NCR territory, and leave it at that, but there a lot more.

 

Which would be fine, cause they give us a construction kit right? WRONG! Some of us can learn skills through IKEA instructions, and those people can become modders. People like me who need intensive instruction are s#*! out of luck. It was easier learning to use Microsoft Office Suite than it is to make sense of the GECK, and I had to take a college class in order to wrap my head around that stuff. Any form of learning where I cannot ask extensive, personal questions and get answers to is worthless to me. Any tutorial I won't get because it's rote learning. Even the kenastetic tutorial of how to play Crusader Kings II, where they explain bit by bit how to play and won't let you advance until you perform the movement correctly, works wonders. I can't teach myself when frustration and isolation conspire to leave me twitching and foaming at the mouth in utter rage.

 

I can't believe there's a whole generation of moders who expect you to learn by trial and error and do so alone. I've begged and pleaded for a teacher, and nobody is willing to teach!

[scottmack]

Erm, well there are absolutely loads of youtube tutorials and walkthroughs which is how some people learn, others just read a wall of text and trial and error it like I did. If text or video tutorials dont help you then there isn't much you can do. Most people are either busy with real life or their own projects to hold someones hand through a long winded process like modding.

[GimmeBackMyMoney]

For me, it was a mix of reading, watching videos and intuition.

[charwo]

There is one thing that might help, it probably won't, but might: all the tutorials I've seen address the how to do before explaining the theoretical underpinnings. This is what I mean by rote, its explains how to do that specific operation without the operational theory. Example: road laying. I don't need to know how to lay a road down, not until I learn where all the possible road pieces are in the BSA file, the trick to their organization, what ALL of the pieces look like, then I need instructions on how to make them fit both with each other and on the terrain underneath as to avoid clipping issues.

 

First of all the GECK is clumsy as hell, and you get to the clipping issues....there is no such thing as simple operation in this. I'd understand if this were built like sim city game in terms of user interface and user ease, but it's nowhere near. And you've missed the point: there is exactly one way I can learn basic operations: personalized instruction. I cannot ask a video tutorial questions, and without direct personalized clarification I can't make sense of anything! I cannot self teach, I need the attention of another human being to learn. And this is a vital issue because only modding can make Bethesda games remotely enjoyable. And I do not remotely have the self control or lack of anger to learn by trial and error, especially when one cannot learn anything useful for error without a thorough understanding of why the error occurred and the slightest idea of how to fix it.

[scottmack]

Why would you need to know where the road pieces are in a BSA? The only reason for that would be to extract them to modify the model or textures. Learning the GECK I.D's and what they look like would take forever. I doubt theres anyone that can picture in their mind what every piece looks like when they are shown the GECK I.D for it. As for fitting them together just click the snap to grid icons. Anything that was intended to fit together will then do so. Otherwise you can just freehand to hide clipping stuff with static clutter.

You just need to get used to the GECK and how it works, its pretty easy once you know how to use it. You'd be very, very lucky indeed to get somebody to sit with you on skype or something and teach you everything, truth is most people are way to busy to devote that amount of time to somebody elses learning. A job and real life commitments take priority. You need to find your own motivation to teach yourself, thats how most of us all got into it. My motivation was my anger lol, I refused to accept that somebody could do something I couldnt. Which pushed me to where I've gotten thus far and im still learning new things all the time. Whenever you're truly stumped then you put a question onto the forums about it and then if you're lucky somebody who has also been through it will see your question and give you an answer.

[charwo]

You are not the right person to talk to Scott, but for other's let me be clear: I take no joy whatsoever from challenge. Joy comes from Mastery, at least for me. And that joy of mastery is inversely proportional to the effort it took to get there. I am not the kind of person who take joy in learning. People have been committed short term for less than the rage fits trying to learn the GECK has put me through. You see, not everyone can learn the same way. Me? I learn only in an academic or apprenticeship environment. While I don't like fighting all that much, its puzzles I loathe with all my soul. And without a teacher to explain the ropes as I go through them, it takes what should be a perfunctory task and turns it into a Labyrinthine puzzle I can't make heads or tails of. Without a teacher, I can no more learn a skill than I could a foreign language. I cannot begin to understand what is important, what is not, what is relevant and how it is relevant, unless I am told directly. Because, in the end, I have no sense of intuition whatsoever. So I will never figure out anything on my own. That's why I need a teacher. It's not I won't, it's I cant.

[nivea]

Im sorry but I am one of the most slow learners, learning disabled, uneducated people I know in my life and I learned how to mod I learned by tutorials and asking questions in forums but mostly I learned by just trial and error. I started modding in MORRWIND, you know what kind of tutorials we had? NOTHING, just a here take this thing here and have fun figuring it the f*#@ out. That is where alot of us come from, a time before there where tutorials everywhere WE are the ones writing the tutorials for others it was years before FNV had any tutorials its gotten alot better lately.

 

I learned because I was angry about not having the kind of content I wanted, so I forced myself for a year to sit down and figure this stuff out when I had the time.

 

So dont get all upset at us for NOT have the time to walk you through everything in the Geck, that is not possible we have lives too you know. There is a whole FORUM right here for you to ask questions in, I dont know why Scott is suddenly not the right person to talk to HE IS THE PERFECT person to talk about this because he is a modder who learned how to do this.

 

I am sorry but if you really require a person to actively tell you over video or Skype, then modding may just not be for you. There just is not enough time in most of our lives to sit there and do that, I answer questions ALL the time I get a pm at least once a day asking for my help and information on how to do things for FO3/FNV/Skyrim and I do my best to answer. But I can not hold someones hand through the whole learning process of all of GECK. I am not a teacher, I almost failed most my schooling I dont even like doing it. I only do it because its the only way I know to give back to the community.

 

I know you cant use a premade tutorial video, but this can at LEAST give you a explanation for what some of the boxes are for and some of the UI.

[gunslinger6792]

It took me 3 years before I finally buckled down and tried to learn the basics of the geck.(I wish I'd done it sooner) As is after a month of learning I've finally learned how to make homes, do basic navmeshing, and add creatures directly into the game. I learned to do that though through trial and error and starting more topics in mod talk than I care to think about. I watched alot of tutorials not just bethesda ones but others. Fact is not every tutorial is going to mention everything you have to overlap stuff. One tutorial might mention needing to press F to drop the piece in but another one will mention that pressing f only works if the object is over another object. People will most likely help but you have to be able to show that you've done some work. I hope some of this helps.

[bben46]

 

I hated Fallout 3 back when it was called Morrowind.

:psyduck: Fallout 3 has never been called Morrowind. They are completely different games set in completely different kind of worlds. The only connections are they are both made by Bethesda Softworks and use somewhat different versions of the same game engine. Morrowind is in the TES world (actually TES3) and is the precursor of Oblivion and Skyrim. Fallout3 is in the Fallout world and is the precursor of Fallout:New Vegas.

The TES world is a completely imaginary world not related to earth at all and revolves around D&D style sword and sorcery gameplay. The Fallout world is a alternate future Earth after a nuclear holocaust that wiped out most of humanity. While much of the SDK ( in Fallout3 called Geck and in Morrowind/Oblivion Construction Kit) are similar, there are a lot of differences also. Pick the game you want to learn to Mod, then get the SDK (Software Development Kit) for that specific game as there will be differences. Then stick with tutorials for that specific game - The Construction Kit for Oblivion will not work for Skyrim. The differences between the GECK for Fallout3 and GECK for New Vegas are minor, but there are still some differences.

 

Definition - SDK (Software Development Kit) - this is the generic name for a set of software tools released for modding a game. It may have different names for different games - such as Construction Kit (CK) for Oblivion or GECK (Garden of Eden Construction Kit) for Fallout3. The SDK for each game engine will be very different. And even somewhat different between variations of the same engine - as in between Oblivion, Fallout3, Skyrim and New Vegas. One easy example - The TES series (Oblivion, Skyrim) have horses and no guns. While The Fallout series (Fallout3 & New Vegas ) have guns but no horses. The resources for the things that one game has and the other not are just not available in the SDK for that game.

 

As for learning to mod. Start simple - find a weapon in the game and retexture it - (make it a different color) That teaches you about textures. Now, put it into a new place your game - that teaches you how to get items into the world space. Now, add a feature to it - a new design for a stock or a change in the sights (not a scope yet) and make it work in your game. That teaches you about Meshes. These were all just for learning how and not for uploading yet. Now, pick some specific SMALL thing you want changed and learn how to do just that small change. When you get it working in your game. THEN, when you are ready to show your work - and get feedback upload it. And be prepared for heavy criticism from fools who have never made their own mod but feel qualified to criticize someone else for doing what they can't. Along with the helpful advice from those who do understand what it's like to make your first mod. :thumbsup:

[JimboUK]

A good place to start is modding other peoples mods, just start with simple alterations, learn where things are and what they do. Obviously don't share what you do but just use it to get the hang of things.