the not so obvious dilemmas

[StayFrosty05]

 

 

Helping the convict princess is the ''evil'' option actually. Turns out she tried to sell the country to the Thalmor and get away with it. Alik'r agents are simply sent to take her to judgement.

 

This has not been confirmed. We are not sure which side is telling the truth in that matter. It's one of the things that bothers me since I like closure, lol.

 

What I would like to eventually see is the ability for our Protagonists to ask further questions, the insanely few questions their able to ask to get to the bottom of a mystery always makes them appear idiotic and I know for myself leaves me as the player rather frustrated at times.

 

Obstinate Novice is spot on, there is no confirmation either way in regards to Saadia and the Alik'r....Personally I tend to favor the Alik'r myself, their story just rings more true for me, but none of it's confirmed.

[Lachdonin]

Part of the lack of dialogue options is because they went from a text based system, to a voice acted one. I was reading some time ago that Skyrim actually includes half again as many lines of dialogue as Mass Effect 2, which is pretty impressive on the face of things... Until you remember that Mass Effect has half as many characters, and only a handful of those have more than 5 lines of conversation.

 

Because you can talk to basically everyone, and you have several lines of dialogue per race for combat purposes, in order to achieve the type of depth of conversation you see in Mass Effect, Dragon Age etc. you would require an absurd amount of voiced dialogue. Combine that with paying the actors (since, lets face it, most graphic designers suck at acting) you would quickly be tying up huge sums in nothing but conversation. That means less for environment design, monsters, atmosphere etc.

 

It would be great (for us and for Bethesda) if they would put out a public call and see if they can get volunteers rather than having to pay people... Social media and online conversations would make interviewing and auditioning easy enough, and they could increase the conversations AND range of voices practically for free.

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

Lachdonin, that idea is so good that it sounds almost criminal, lol.

[Riprock]

I think the failing of Skyrim is that the supposed dilemmas actually are not--either choice has very little perceptible effect on the world or the storyline of the player. Even with the Civl war, the only real difference is which basically interchangable beaurocrat sits in the fancy chair and which huddle at the banquet table and insult you.

 

It's funny, so many players in TESI V said "I want to roleplay, I make the decisions matter while roleplaying". TES V allows exactly that but then other players turn around and say "my decisions don't matter"

 

So on the one hand, if the player's actions don't have an obvious effect, something wrong, and on the other in real life, if I chose to be a jerk, there's very little world-changing about the fact. I do realize that since we are playing a game about the player as the 'world-mover', we do expect some world-changers.

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

While Elder Scrolls does get close to making decisions matter, it doesn't do "exactly that" because whether you side with one guild or all of them, whether you kill this guy but let that other guy live, the main game plays out basically the same way for all of us.

 

This isn't to say they failed in every way when it comes to this as there are some areas where they didn't (I think) but to act as though complaints of a lack of weight in our decisions are unfounded seems a bit absurd.

 

In RL, if I help a guy out of a serious jam, he may be more inclined to listen to me for advice and or seek guidance from me... in Skyrim, no matter what you do and or what side you've chosen, Balgruuf always sides with the Imperials.

 

If you choose to be a jerk, it most certainly has an impact on your world (how else can you be a jerk if you aren't affecting the world/people around you?) and if you're famous and or an internationally important person, it most certainly can have an impact on the world.

 

In a game, some might expect this to be more so and I don't think they're silly for having such expectations.

[Georgiegril]

IMO, a very good example of a game providing choices that actually matter is Witcher II. In that game, while there is no absolute "right" or "wrong," or even good or evil, the choices the player makes have tangible consequences for which future choices a player is faced with, as well as significant changes in the "world"--in ways that a player might not predict, but that seem quite realistic. It is not that jerks get treated like jerks, or some sort of instant karma, but rather decisions with even the best of intentions, and which ultimately might do the most good, may still have tragic effects as well.

 

Granted, that is easier to do in a game that is more linear. But I think Skyrim could have incorporated a bit more of that, even so--certainly a number of mod authors have been able to do so. For example, there is a mod (I forget the name, I just saw the description) that makes it so the Companions will not accept members of the Dark Brotherhood. Or in Apollodown's civil war mod, where he was trying to make it so that a player wearing the uniform of one side would be treated with hostility in towns/holds that were aligned with the other.

 

Personally I think Bethesda decided to give up real consequences for players having greater freedom and being able to do everything. I can understand their position, but I don't share it.

[Lachdonin]

In RL, if I help a guy out of a serious jam, he may be more inclined to listen to me for advice and or seek guidance from me... in Skyrim, no matter what you do and or what side you've chosen, Balgruuf always sides with the Imperials.

 

Wait wait wait... People actually listen to you if you've provided assistance or reliable advice in the past? What paradise place to you live in?

 

It's a sad reflection on the real world when our actions in fantasy worlds have more meaningful consequences than just about anything we do (aside from committing murder) in our own lives. Lets face it, reality has even less tangible results than Skyrim does.

 

 

Anyway, I think a lot of people are forgetting the good'ol days when we DID have serious limitations. In Daggerfall, regardless of your rank, your standing in a Guild, Temple or Organization gradually decreased as you did jobs for rivals, or just went too long without doing a job for them. People complained profusely over it (admittedly in the primitive internet forums that existed in the late 90's) because it forced them to do work, running around between towns just to do jobs for organizations which inevitably lowered their reputation with others, creating an endless cycle with no real accomplishment. You know... Like Mercenary work.

 

So, partly because of this, they got rid of reputations in Morrowind. Instead of reputation, to rise in the ranks you just had to complete the prerequisite quests... Oh, and have certain skills at acceptable levels (you had to be good at magic to rise in the Mages Guild!? *gasp!* ). Well, people didn't like that either, because in order to become master of all the guilds you had to spend time grinding out skills (anyone who has put on a suit of armour and let Cliff Racers beat on you for 20 minutes knows all about this). Oh, and if your fame got above 10, the Theives Guild wouldn't let you join.

 

They have, in the past, tried some range of consequence, and it's always ended up with backlash. There is a reason why they promote freedom rather than concrete consequences.

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

Wait wait wait... People actually listen to you if you've provided assistance or reliable advice in the past? What paradise place to you live in?

 

 

Northeast coast of US and yeah, there are people that come to me for advice because I've proven myself to them in someway. That does happen. Does everyone do this? No, but it certainly is not far fetched from reality.

 

If people go to strangers for advice and counsel, why would it be crazy to go to someone who has actually done something important for them?

 

(I mean all you did was say you were at Helgen and Bal asks you to help him/seeks your expertise with dragons so yeah (actually makes less sense than my scenario))

[TailAbNormal]

 

They have, in the past, tried some range of consequence, and it's always ended up with backlash. There is a reason why they promote freedom rather than concrete consequences.

 

 

Another thing that's funny is that this is what a lot of people (especially modders) complain that games are lacking in today. I think that the only way to make everyone truly happy, would be to integrate something like the mod customizer for the skyui.

 

For example, I'm playing TES:6 and decide I want my character to need sleep. I open up the menu, scroll to the 'set needs' option, and set the sleep requirement. I could then play my game more realistically, while still having the option to turn all the realism settings off and play it like an arcade game.

 

I think this would be a feature that could actually please everyone, and offer even more replayability to the game.

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

It's true that you can't please everyone and some people want far more realism than most would, but you have to be able to tell what is the desire of an outlier vs. the desire of your customer base as it makes a difference.

 

And just because you try something, it doesn't mean it is done right so of course you will get backlash if your attempt is lacking and or still doesn't resolve the issue presented.