Can magic really compete with traditional weapons?

[pheo3309]

 

I would say mage being overpowered because my vanilla mage can single-handedly defeat draugr death overlord, dragonpriest and giant at about level 10 on legendary without using potions, none of my archer or melee warrior can do that.

 

 

 

 

Ya Im finding that hard to beleive. The only way thats true is if you are either playing on adept or below, or your character is much higher than a level 10. Ive played enough mages to know when you can start killing those tougher enemies, and level 10 isn't it.

 

 

Only one that I know can be killed at level 10 on Novice Difficulty was the Dragon Priests. And that's with a ton of enchantments, lots and lots and lots of potions, and luck. 25 deaths later, I finally killed one. Never again will I try that. Never again. xD

[blacksupernova]

The reason why I can defeat those powerful opponents at such low level is because I combine conjuration and destruction: conjure up powerful creatures to engage combat while standing aside, aiding them with my own destruction spells and waiting for magicka to recharge at the same time. Usually, conjured creature is killed when my magicka is fully recharged and I can immediately raise another one but if they are killed too quickly, I would run around, avoiding the target to buy some time. My apparel at that time is usually consists of a robes of apprentice destruction and a novice/apprentice hood, possibly a ring of recharging (but not always). I hate using potions so during my whole game play, I would consume less than 10 potions (health and magicka only). I don't just pick a random level 10, at level 10, my mage would have ~200 magicka, enough to cast and have access to stormatronach and wrathman spells. They are my power house.

[Ulfric1]

Unfortunately, not...magic can only crush traditional weapons... :devil:

 

I recommend SPERG also, its a fun mod for spellcasters, rogues, and fighters alike. :)

[pheo3309]

The reason why I can defeat those powerful opponents at such low level is because I combine conjuration and destruction: conjure up powerful creatures to engage combat while standing aside, aiding them with my own destruction spells and waiting for magicka to recharge at the same time. Usually, conjured creature is killed when my magicka is fully recharged and I can immediately raise another one but if they are killed too quickly, I would run around, avoiding the target to buy some time. My apparel at that time is usually consists of a robes of apprentice destruction and a novice/apprentice hood, possibly a ring of recharging (but not always). I hate using potions so during my whole game play, I would consume less than 10 potions (health and magicka only). I don't just pick a random level 10, at level 10, my mage would have ~200 magicka, enough to cast and have access to stormatronach and wrathman spells. They are my power house.

 

See, I'm still having a very hard time buying this, which is why I said it would be better for you to post video footage of your character with showing that there's no cheats enabled, your character is at level 10, set on Legendary, and having enough Magicka to cast the spells you have along with the perks that show it. I'm VERY skeptical now. If you have approximately 200 Magicka points, you can't cast Wrathman. You would need Expert Conjuration to cast it with that much Magicka points; not to mention that they last for 60 seconds unless you have Conjuration Dual Casting. Consuming less than 10 potions, I would need to see proof of this. No offense, but saying these things is not proof. I need to -see- it so that it's validated into the public eye through the burden of proof. Saying these things isn't enough proof for the data at hand that you're giving. In fact, what you just said is going against you. I'm starting to even question you have the perks since you didn't state them in the first place and after this fact that I brought them up.

Another reason why I'm not buying this is that you included Draugr Overlords in your list. Most of them other than a -select few- aren't seen until level 30. Then when you included Dragon Priests, unless you had an enchantment of Magicka Absorption or any kind of magical defense that absorbs their Magicka, you'd need way more than 10 potions with that approximate amount of Magicka due to the fact that Dragon Priests' lightning ... Drains your Magicka. Not to mention the fact that they have 1490 HP; That's a lot of time running around without dying at least once. Which I highly expect even the most skilled of mages at level 10 to die on Legendary against a Dragon Priest at LEAST once or twice if not more. Especially if you're going against Morokei. Not only those things though, they're proficient in Alteration, Conjuration, Destruction, and Restoration. Their AI type causes them to backpedal constantly when they take on damage. I'm sorry, but I'm not buying that. There's too much data and video footage that says otherwise to support your claim still.

So in closing, and again, no offense, but until I see video footage of this, I'm inclined not to believe it. Especially after things that you've said that doesn't make sense, which I'm a person of doubt. What you're saying is fact for your character has room for possiblities. Facts leave no room for possibilities.

Edit: For further reference, Conjure Wrathman uses 301 Magicka points. Which is way above your 200 approximate value given.

Edited September 19, 2013 by pheo3309

[Bozzz123]

The reason why I can defeat those powerful opponents at such low level is because I combine conjuration and destruction: conjure up powerful creatures to engage combat while standing aside, aiding them with my own destruction spells and waiting for magicka to recharge at the same time. Usually, conjured creature is killed when my magicka is fully recharged and I can immediately raise another one but if they are killed too quickly, I would run around, avoiding the target to buy some time. My apparel at that time is usually consists of a robes of apprentice destruction and a novice/apprentice hood, possibly a ring of recharging (but not always). I hate using potions so during my whole game play, I would consume less than 10 potions (health and magicka only). I don't just pick a random level 10, at level 10, my mage would have ~200 magicka, enough to cast and have access to stormatronach and wrathman spells. They are my power house.

Also the term "single handidly" doesn't really apply to conjured minions. Sure, you made them, but they are doing the fighting while you stand back. Theres nothing wrong with that and it's a good strategy, but it doesn't count as "single handidly".

[Ulfric1]

Imagine how much grinding you would have to do to get your conjuration that high by level 10 as well...I mean what is the skill requirement to have the storm atronach tome to even start appearing?

[pheo3309]

Imagine how much grinding you would have to do to get your conjuration that high by level 10 as well...I mean what is the skill requirement to have the storm atronach tome to even start appearing?

 

Considering it too is an expert level spell, at least a skill level of 75 to even buy it, unless you have Dragonborn in which you can get it at 65, a base magicka consumption of 255. Having the Expert Conjuration perk will half that, but I'm still seriously doubting it since nothing was said about perks in the first place and the base magicka to begin with. At max without enchantments he could have 200 Magicka points, 10 points of Magicka per level, which means he could only have 100 base health without enchantments. Which if the spell is halved 127.5 magicka points. With their health at 383, I highly doubt those would even be cannon fodder to even Draugr Overlords, let alone Dragon Priests. Especially with the weapon's set. With gameplay stock footage of how much damage each enemy NPC deals on Legendary, it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Even with Heavy Armor, with how slow the magicka regeneration goes with that, it still hinders the caster. So when applying all of that (as he says approximates), he'd literally have nothing in health. He'd have at least 9 perks to contend with. Which, yes, he could have gotten Expert Conjuration, but at the expense of even more vital perks in Destruction and Enchanting, even at that level... And not using potions? It just doesn't make sense. Especially with that HP base count and no enchantments in regards to upping that.

Edited September 20, 2013 by pheo3309

[Bozzz123]

I think at this point we can all assume he was just trying to impress everybody (which is kind of sad). Either he is completely lying, or he is using some sort of mods. Either way I'm pretty sure we tore apart all of his statements. Thoroughly.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Bozzz123

[blacksupernova]

I understand your skeptic, I didn't think it possible at all before I tried it. Now my character is way above level 10, so I would need some time to rebuild a new character to even make a video. For now, I will just address some matter that you point out:

 

If you have approximately 200 Magicka points, you can't cast Wrathman. You would need Expert Conjuration to cast it with that much Magicka points

That is just my base magicka, I get 40 more from an apprentice hood

 

Conjure Wrathman uses 301 Magicka points. Which is way above your 200 approximate value given.

You forgot about spell cost reduction from skill, conjuration is one of my main skill, so the cost of the spell would be around 230 at that level

 

Imagine how much grinding you would have to do to get your conjuration that high by level 10 as well...I mean what is the skill requirement to have the storm atronach tome to even start appearing?

 

Considering it too is an expert level spell, at least a skill level of 75 to even buy it, unless you have Dragonborn in which you can get it at 65, a base magicka consumption of 255

Actually, not much. I can get storm atronach spell at any level by using the Atronach Forge, the ingredients for the spell tome is also abundant in the college

 

Another reason why I'm not buying this is that you included Draugr Overlords in your list. Most of them other than a -select few- aren't seen until level 30

Arcwind Point is one special place where you can encounter very strong opponents, near the barrow on the top of the stair exist a leveled draugr. Most of the time time, I get a Draugr Death Overlord, Draugr Scourge Lord is the weakest variation I ever met.

 

Also the term "single handidly" doesn't really apply to conjured minions. Sure, you made them, but they are doing the fighting while you stand back. Theres nothing wrong with that and it's a good strategy, but it doesn't count as "single handidly".

OK, by "single-handedly" I meant without external help (i.e: follower), I fight with what my character alone can do.

 

Then when you included Dragon Priests, unless you had an enchantment of Magicka Absorption or any kind of magical defense that absorbs their Magicka, you'd need way more than 10 potions with that approximate amount of Magicka due to the fact that Dragon Priests' lightning ... Drains your Magicka. Not to mention the fact that they have 1490 HP; That's a lot of time running around without dying at least once. Which I highly expect even the most skilled of mages at level 10 to die on Legendary against a Dragon Priest at LEAST once or twice if not more. Especially if you're going against Morokei. Not only those things though, they're proficient in Alteration, Conjuration, Destruction, and Restoration. Their AI type causes them to backpedal constantly when they take on damage

I just said my mage CAN defeat them, I didn't say it would be so easy. I admit, some dragonpriests are more easily dealt than others. In particular, Zahkriisos and lightning-based priests are especially simple targets, my Storm atronach tear them apart (storm atronach immunes to their expel daedra and lightning attack), fire and frost-based are more difficult but storm atronach can still gain upper hand since its attacks quickly drain their magicka to the point they can not cast spell. Staff-wielded priests are especially annoying, I had to resort to wrathman and later, ash spawn to win. And yes, I would die once or twice if I let my guard off (in which case, I would fight them from the beginning) but that's not something you can completely avoid when you are killed by just one attack from them.

 

It would take some time to make the video, but I think I will do it, I don't like it when some one say I'm the type of person who likes to impress.

Edited September 20, 2013 by blacksupernova

[pheo3309]

I understand your skeptic, I didn't think it possible at all before I tried it. Now my character is way above level 10, so I would need some time to rebuild a new character to even make a video. For now, I will just address some matter that you point out:

 

If you have approximately 200 Magicka points, you can't cast Wrathman. You would need Expert Conjuration to cast it with that much Magicka points

That is just my base magicka, I get 40 more from an apprentice hood

 

Conjure Wrathman uses 301 Magicka points. Which is way above your 200 approximate value given.

You forgot about spell cost reduction from skill, conjuration is one of my main skill, so the cost of the spell would be around 230 at that level

 

Imagine how much grinding you would have to do to get your conjuration that high by level 10 as well...I mean what is the skill requirement to have the storm atronach tome to even start appearing?

 

Considering it too is an expert level spell, at least a skill level of 75 to even buy it, unless you have Dragonborn in which you can get it at 65, a base magicka consumption of 255

Actually, not much. I can get storm atronach spell at any level by using the Atronach Forge, the ingredients for the spell tome is also abundant in the college

 

Another reason why I'm not buying this is that you included Draugr Overlords in your list. Most of them other than a -select few- aren't seen until level 30

Arcwind Point is one special place where you can encounter very strong opponents, near the barrow on the top of the stair exist a leveled draugr. Most of the time time, I get a Draugr Death Overlord, Draugr Scourge Lord is the weakest variation I ever met.

 

Also the term "single handidly" doesn't really apply to conjured minions. Sure, you made them, but they are doing the fighting while you stand back. Theres nothing wrong with that and it's a good strategy, but it doesn't count as "single handidly".

OK, by "single-handedly" I meant without external help (i.e: follower), I fight with what my character alone can do.

 

Then when you included Dragon Priests, unless you had an enchantment of Magicka Absorption or any kind of magical defense that absorbs their Magicka, you'd need way more than 10 potions with that approximate amount of Magicka due to the fact that Dragon Priests' lightning ... Drains your Magicka. Not to mention the fact that they have 1490 HP; That's a lot of time running around without dying at least once. Which I highly expect even the most skilled of mages at level 10 to die on Legendary against a Dragon Priest at LEAST once or twice if not more. Especially if you're going against Morokei. Not only those things though, they're proficient in Alteration, Conjuration, Destruction, and Restoration. Their AI type causes them to backpedal constantly when they take on damage

I just said my mage CAN defeat them, I didn't say it would be so easy. I admit, some dragonpriests are more easily dealt than others. In particular, Zahkriisos and lightning-based priests are especially simple targets, my Storm atronach tear them apart (storm atronach immunes to their expel daedra and lightning attack), fire and frost-based are more difficult but storm atronach can still gain upper hand since its attacks quickly drain their magicka to the point they can not cast spell. Staff-wielded priests are especially annoying, I had to resort to wrathman and later, ash spawn to win. And yes, I would die once or twice if I let my guard off (in which case, I would fight them from the beginning) but that's not something you can completely avoid when you are killed by just one attack from them.

 

It would take some time to make the video, but I think I will do it, I don't like it when some one say I'm the type of person who likes to impress.

 

I'm going to again, say I don't believe you and this'll be my final words to you until there is undeniable proof.

 

1.) You stated these things AFTER the fact I brought them up rather than before. Why? If you're stating a fact, then why was there room for possibility? I take it you didn't read the part of my post where I said I'd highly doubt that you'd have them due to the fact that I stated it before your last post? This is why I would need a video. No offense, but on the internet, I take most people's word with a grain of salt with huge claims.

 

2.) The math still doesn't add up until I see a video of your perks list. Hood or not. 100 hit points isn't a lot toward anything health wise.

 

3.) Cost reduction is an enchantment unless otherwise applied through a perk. You've not stated anything specific, while I did; which again, I'd need to see a video, because too much still doesn't make any sense.

 

4.) As for the Atronach Forge, I'm still finding problems. I could understand a staff, but you still have 100 HP. Even if you have enough to cast, it'll be destroyed quicker than you can shake two sticks at. Storm Atronach's have way way WAY less HP, then two of the enemies proposed by you and I constantly see them thwarted on Legendary. Both through my tests of what you've said, and on YouTube. What happens when they turn their sight on you? Can you destroy them without summons? That's not overpowered. That's called tactic. Two separate paradigms.

 

5.) Arcwind Point is one of those select few places. But having the Draugr plummeting to their death isn't skill. It's just a cheap tatic. Good tactic, but hardly anything 'overpowered'.

 

6.) You're still summoning, which those are SPELL BASED disposable followers. It's a spell yes, but that's still not defeated by you single handedly. You're not creating anything. You're calling FORTH. Conjuration is based on Evocation. Evocation is to summon or call forth. So to explain this better, you're using your summon's power. Not your own. While yours was the initial one to cast, it's hardly any of your combat work other than casting the spell. I know I'm being redundant, and very picky. I have reason to as I'll state in the next number of points to address.

 

7.) They're immune to SHOCK DAMAGE. You do know that Dragon Priests in the Creation Kit have a few more spells than that lightning spell, yes? Not to mention the fact that you said that's all they cast, nooooo. Dragon Priests aren't limited to one spell. Also, Ash Spawn isn't vanilla. Nor is Wrathman. I forgot to mention that Wrathman is added by Dawnguard. You said vanilla which vanilla = Only Skyrim.ESM and Upate.ESM. That doesn't include DLC based content. Do note: Legendary was added by a patch that doesn't require DLC. If you're using DLC spells, you're not playing purely vanilla.

 

8.) You dying once or twice was completely omitted from your first statement. You saying that they were overpowered gave the assertion that you weren't dying at all. You then continued to keep that assertion up even after character death was discussed many times. This is why I'm taking what you're saying with a grain of salt. I'm thinking you're dying a lot more.

 

9.) If you do the video, I'd need to see the level, your spell perk trees, your inventory for number potions, gear for enchantments, your console to make sure that no cheats were enabled, spells that you'll be using, and recording all character deaths that happen. So no cuts of the video if you die. Another thing is making sure it's in high quality, to ensure that all reading of the game is legible and easy to understand. Another thing you stated, was that this was all completely vanilla. I would also like to see your Data Files in the launcher.

 

10.) If you're not one trying to impress, I'm going to make a suggestion: When making a claim like this, do not give direction for assumption and assertion because that's why you're sounding as if you're trying. Especially when you're talking about Legendary difficulty.

 

So in closing, this is why I don't believe you. You gave the assertion that you didn't die, that it was on Vanilla, and that you were doing the defeating single-handedly. You carried on with the assertion that you didn't die, forgot to mention that Wrathman was DLC content (which so is Ash Spawns) and I didn't find out about this until I loaded Skyrim and Skyrim's Update in the Creation Kit. Summons really isn't doing anything by yourself as it's evocation of another. Using summons is a good strategy, don't get any of this wrong. But claiming that it's you that's throwing all of the power around is that it led us to the assertion of yours that you were trying to impress when indeed it's been talked about through strategy of many of us in different threads. This is also another reason why your assertion on mages and Magecraft being overpowered isn't valid. You've died. You're using summons to kill things. Circumventing proper spell levels by using the Atronach Forge. Not to mention you're also using DLC summons. Which is fine, don't get me wrong, it's a heck of a strategy. But when putting all of this together from your first statement, it's not true on the technicality of the DLC. If you die more than once, it's not overpowered in my opinion. Using summons, you're insanely lucky in regards that you're not using potions.

Edited September 20, 2013 by pheo3309