Is the Greybeards part of the Main Quest realistic?

[terickson227]

Whenever I choose to/have to start a new game, and I reach the part where you learn you are the Dragonborn, I can't help but ask certain questions in my mind.

 

Note: The summary below is after you go to Whiterun for the first time, kill Mirmulnir, etc., and is from the Dragonborn's in-the-moment perspective.

 

Mirmulnir is dead, and you go to investigate his corpse, when something strange starts happening, then the dragon is suddenly just a skeleton. A guard approaches, and suddenly you are labeled as Dragonborn, the first in hundreds if not thousands of years in a series of individuals with the power to shout naturally, like dragons are able to. You return to Whiterun, and after informing the Jarl of what occurred, you are told to go up to High Hrothgar without any delay.

 

This is the point that I'm mainly talking about. When you get to this stage, maybe most people just go along with it, but I think about it as if I was there myself. I imagine that most people would be at least a bit unnerved by nearly being executed, escaping from a dragon attack, fighting and killing another dragon, suddenly being realized as some mythical "Dragonborn," and being directed to meet "some old Nord hermits who live up on a mountain." Even better is this all takes place in at most a week, assuming you didn't get sidetracked between leaving Helgen and going to Whiterun.

 

It seems like people in Skyrim believe that you will go to High Hrothgar as the Dragonborn without hesitation, and the existing dialogue seems to allow nothing short of a robotic level of compliance. I can't help but think this is unrealistic, unless possibly if the Dragonborn is a Nord.

 

Has anyone else had this come to mind, and/or have thoughts as to how this might be more realistic than I see it? Maybe I'm taking the game too seriously, but whenever I play that part of the Main Quest, it definitely lingers over my game.

Edited September 18, 2013 by terickson227

[Moraelin]

Well, considering that I always put it off for later (even more so after the vampire attacks start in Dawnguard, since I want to finish that ASAP so they stop, so anything else unfinished yet, Greybeards included, will have to wait) I'll say that their expectation of me complying was unrealistic :p

 

But is it unrealistic for them to have such ideas? Not really, IMHO. People have all sorts of ideas, most of them unjustified and some flat out illogical. Expecting a foreigner to value the same things or be honoured to be asked to climb some mountain just like them isn't even particularly unusual.

 

Remember that even today the idea that different cultures just value different things, or are educated to see different things as right or wrong, is often met with derision or outright scorn. People like things simple. X is good, Y is evil. Buttered side up is right, buttered side down is wrong. Our beliefs are verily the basis of any good morality, the belief of those guys over there are just evil nonsense. Etc. That kind thing.

 

But you don't even need to go back in time to reach a point where anthropology or the idea of a culture in another sense than going to the opera weren't even invented yet. As close back in time as the 19'th century we went by ideas like "white man's burden" or "mission to civilize". Making other people do things our way wasn't seen as some unreasonable attitude, but as civilizing them. At gun-point if they don't agree otherwise.

 

And if we're talking a kinda late antiquity setup like in the game, don't forget that for the Greeks or Romans anyone having other customs or even language was just a barbarian. The idea that other people's values can be different but equally good had practically zero traction.

 

So, yea, I don't think it would be anything special for one or two guys to expect you to be immensely honoured if you're asked to drop everything and take part in their own traditions.

 

Plus, don't forget that Balguruf wasn't there when you barely escaped with your neck on your shoulders. Plus he's a guy with advisors and a court to help him sort out crises. It's doubtful how much he can relate to being overwhelmed by too much happening too fast.

[EnaiSiaion]

There are some requests you can't refuse, and ones that are heard by everyone in Skyrim are among them.

[Lanceor]

The plotlines of most RPGs can be rather flimsy at best. If you think about it, what normal person would go into a draugr infest crypt alone? Or approach a dragon's lair without a few dozen archers in tow? Or murder some old lady on the other side of the country because some kid asked them to?

 

We accept it as it's a common trope for starting adventures in the fantasy genre. An adventurer hears a rumour at a tavern and it's enough of an excuse for them to crawl into a trap filled dungeon or travel across the continent in search of a fabled treasure. If adventurers exercised common sense instead of accepting these flimsy plot devices, they'd still be sitting around the tavern making up stories.

 

So yah, climbing a mountain because the Jarl suggested that it would be a good idea is a bit weak, but I suspend my disbelief because it's part and parcel of the genre. :smile:

[Urtel]

If you ask me, then the whole story must be rolling quite fast. And the whole story feels like that.

Actually, the blades are those, who always make you to rush. After you spoke to Delphine and got the horn, you get the last possibility to delay the story, saying you have no time for all that nonsense and walking away. But after you agree to work with the blades, there is no way you can avoid rushing all around skyrim in order to stop dragons. Thats how it feels for me. After you escaped, you are free to go everywhere you want, but going straight to riverwood seems logical, since you have nothing in your bag. After that it is meant to rush straight to whiterun, and after getting a quest for barrows, you can take a break, since barrows are known to be dangerous places. After the dragon attack you lose the understanding of situation, because some call you db, others are laughing, but the greybeards can at least explain you what is happening. (Thats what i thought first time). So going there asap is really what everyone expects, and it seems logical, if you want to understand, what is happening. When they want you to go and get a horn, you can delay it for as long as you want. But i always keep in mind, that dragons are there, so since that point you probably should be at least in a hurry. And you are meant to be in much bigger hurry, when you retrieve an elder scroll. So the whole story is developing fast, since time is working against you, willing to stop every second.

[TailAbNormal]

Yeah, it's obvious that the story progresses ridiculously fast. I was just replaying the quest where you are first trained by the Grey beards, and now realize how weird it is. I mean, you spend 30 minutes climbing a mountain for just a for almost no explanation of why or how you are the Dragonborn, no history lesson, and only 2 shouts. After that, the Grey beards decide to just send you into a dangerous crypt to retrieve an artifact that may, or may not even be there.

[terickson227]

 

Well, considering that I always put it off for later (even more so after the vampire attacks start in Dawnguard, since I want to finish that ASAP so they stop, so anything else unfinished yet, Greybeards included, will have to wait) I'll say that their expectation of me complying was unrealistic :tongue:

 

But is it unrealistic for them to have such ideas? Not really, IMHO. People have all sorts of ideas, most of them unjustified and some flat out illogical. Expecting a foreigner to value the same things or be honoured to be asked to climb some mountain just like them isn't even particularly unusual.

 

Remember that even today the idea that different cultures just value different things, or are educated to see different things as right or wrong, is often met with derision or outright scorn. People like things simple. X is good, Y is evil. Buttered side up is right, buttered side down is wrong. Our beliefs are verily the basis of any good morality, the belief of those guys over there are just evil nonsense. Etc. That kind thing.

 

But you don't even need to go back in time to reach a point where anthropology or the idea of a culture in another sense than going to the opera weren't even invented yet. As close back in time as the 19'th century we went by ideas like "white man's burden" or "mission to civilize". Making other people do things our way wasn't seen as some unreasonable attitude, but as civilizing them. At gun-point if they don't agree otherwise.

 

And if we're talking a kinda late antiquity setup like in the game, don't forget that for the Greeks or Romans anyone having other customs or even language was just a barbarian. The idea that other people's values can be different but equally good had practically zero traction.

 

So, yea, I don't think it would be anything special for one or two guys to expect you to be immensely honoured if you're asked to drop everything and take part in their own traditions.

 

Plus, don't forget that Balguruf wasn't there when you barely escaped with your neck on your shoulders. Plus he's a guy with advisors and a court to help him sort out crises. It's doubtful how much he can relate to being overwhelmed by too much happening too fast.

I guess I might have put unintended emphasis on Skyrim's culture, but that is secondary. What I think is truly bizarre is that your dialogue essentially forces you to do these things in a very unrealistic way.

 

There are some requests you can't refuse, and ones that are heard by everyone in Skyrim are among them.

I don't mean refusing the quest, but just how the dialogue doesn't allow any (in my opinion) realistic hesitation that sentient beings have. Like I said above, the dialogue is more associated with machines.

 

For example:

"You are the Dragonborn, go to High Hrothgar," to which the Dragonborn can only respond something that really boils down to "Command confirmed."

 

The plotlines of most RPGs can be rather flimsy at best. If you think about it, what normal person would go into a draugr infest crypt alone? Or approach a dragon's lair without a few dozen archers in tow? Or murder some old lady on the other side of the country because some kid asked them to?

 

We accept it as it's a common trope for starting adventures in the fantasy genre. An adventurer hears a rumour at a tavern and it's enough of an excuse for them to crawl into a trap filled dungeon or travel across the continent in search of a fabled treasure. If adventurers exercised common sense instead of accepting these flimsy plot devices, they'd still be sitting around the tavern making up stories.

 

So yah, climbing a mountain because the Jarl suggested that it would be a good idea is a bit weak, but I suspend my disbelief because it's part and parcel of the genre. :smile:

Perhaps I should have mentioned this in my original post, but it's not the fact that the Dragonborn is going into dangerous locations within days of nearly being executed and entering Skyrim that really gets me, since that could be said about any number of games. I have played other games, including Fallout 3, Fallout New Vegas, and Oblivion, but the quest line never really bothered me in those. In Fallout 3, you get out of Vault 101 to escape being caught, in New Vegas you are chasing the person that tried to kill you, and in Oblivion you are a prisoner who takes advantage of an unusual situation to get out of prison (when the Emperor and his guards come to open the secret passage).

 

None of that felt the same way as this. After all, the Dragonborn seems to be a minimum of 25 years old, and lived their entire life without knowing anything about Dragonborns or anything like that. Suddenly, once they (and the rest of Skyrim) find out, everyone expects them to know things no one else does, and do things without a second thought. Even among somewhat unrealistic plots in games, this really seems to stand out in my opinion.

 

If you ask me, then the whole story must be rolling quite fast. And the whole story feels like that.

Actually, the blades are those, who always make you to rush. After you spoke to Delphine and got the horn, you get the last possibility to delay the story, saying you have no time for all that nonsense and walking away. But after you agree to work with the blades, there is no way you can avoid rushing all around skyrim in order to stop dragons. Thats how it feels for me. After you escaped, you are free to go everywhere you want, but going straight to riverwood seems logical, since you have nothing in your bag. After that it is meant to rush straight to whiterun, and after getting a quest for barrows, you can take a break, since barrows are known to be dangerous places. After the dragon attack you lose the understanding of situation, because some call you db, others are laughing, but the greybeards can at least explain you what is happening. (Thats what i thought first time). So going there asap is really what everyone expects, and it seems logical, if you want to understand, what is happening. When they want you to go and get a horn, you can delay it for as long as you want. But i always keep in mind, that dragons are there, so since that point you probably should be at least in a hurry. And you are meant to be in much bigger hurry, when you retrieve an elder scroll. So the whole story is developing fast, since time is working against you, willing to stop every second.

Personally, Delphine always seemed to be pressuring me for answers, which brings up another good point. Delphine isn't even a Nord (she is a Breton, according to the Thalmor Dossier on Delphine), so the Nord culture argument falls apart. To be honest, I didn't think about the strange nature of the Main Quest much the first few times I played, but now I have mods (like Deadly Dragons) that force you to slow down, and with mods that make the game more difficult, I can't help but notice how ridiculous the dialogue seems.

 

Yeah, it's obvious that the story progresses ridiculously fast. I was just replaying the quest where you are first trained by the Grey beards, and now realize how weird it is. I mean, you spend 30 minutes climbing a mountain for just a for almost no explanation of why or how you are the Dragonborn, no history lesson, and only 2 shouts. After that, the Grey beards decide to just send you into a dangerous crypt to retrieve an artifact that may, or may not even be there.

The Greybeards don't have that dialogue line. That would be Farengar in Dragonsreach, sending you to Bleak Falls Barrow. However, you are correct, in that it doesn't seem to get any less strange or any more believable after you meet the Greybeards.

Edited September 18, 2013 by terickson227

[WatchMeGoing]

I've grown to hate the Graybeard part of the main quest. It takes up a lot of time and you're basically just standing around listening to some old guy talk, then you look at some words on the floor, then you have to shout three times and wait for the shout cooldown each time. Then you think you're finally done, but no. Go outside and wait for the Graybeards to join you at the slowest walking pace possible, and the whole thing starts again. (Thank god they don't make you do the Whirlwind Sprint three times as well)

 

The annoying thing is that this is some sort of interactive cut scene. You can't skip it and you can't just go and get a drink and a snack until it's over, and yet there is absolutely nothing exciting about playing this part of the game. You'd think that they keep replayability in mind while designing an Elder Scrolls game, but they seem to have completely ignored that for this part of the main quest.

 

So whenever I do go through that, I'm too pissed off to really pay attention to whether it's "realistic" or not.

[terickson227]

I've grown to hate the Graybeard part of the main quest. It takes up a lot of time and you're basically just standing around listening to some old guy talk, then you look at some words on the floor, then you have to shout three times and wait for the shout cooldown each time. Then you think you're finally done, but no. Go outside and wait for the Graybeards to join you at the slowest walking pace possible, and the whole thing starts again. (Thank god they don't make you do the Whirlwind Sprint three times as well)

 

The annoying thing is that this is some sort of interactive cut scene. You can't skip it and you can't just go and get a drink and a snack until it's over, and yet there is absolutely nothing exciting about playing this part of the game. You'd think that they keep replayability in mind while designing an Elder Scrolls game, but they seem to have completely ignored that for this part of the main quest.

 

So whenever I do go through that, I'm too pissed off to really pay attention to whether it's "realistic" or not.

That is one of the major downsides of being able to play what might in many other games be a cutscene. Unfortunately in Skyrim, because of bugs or mods, you might have to restart the game and go through it all over again. For me, going to Bleak Falls Barrow for the billionth time is really annoying. I don't even have to look at the Golden Claw to know the combinations: Snake Snake Whale at the room with the switch, then Bear Moth Owl at the large door. That's how many times I've been through that place.

[WatchMeGoing]

 

I've grown to hate the Graybeard part of the main quest. It takes up a lot of time and you're basically just standing around listening to some old guy talk, then you look at some words on the floor, then you have to shout three times and wait for the shout cooldown each time. Then you think you're finally done, but no. Go outside and wait for the Graybeards to join you at the slowest walking pace possible, and the whole thing starts again. (Thank god they don't make you do the Whirlwind Sprint three times as well)

 

The annoying thing is that this is some sort of interactive cut scene. You can't skip it and you can't just go and get a drink and a snack until it's over, and yet there is absolutely nothing exciting about playing this part of the game. You'd think that they keep replayability in mind while designing an Elder Scrolls game, but they seem to have completely ignored that for this part of the main quest.

 

So whenever I do go through that, I'm too pissed off to really pay attention to whether it's "realistic" or not.

That is one of the major downsides of being able to play what might in many other games be a cutscene. Unfortunately in Skyrim, because of bugs or mods, you might have to restart the game and go through it all over again. For me, going to Bleak Falls Barrow for the billionth time is really annoying. I don't even have to look at the Golden Claw to know the combinations: Snake Snake Whale at the room with the switch, then Bear Moth Owl at the large door. That's how many times I've been through that place.

 

 

Yeah, that too. I don't even have to remember the animals. I just know how many times I have to activate the pillars/rings.

 

1st pillar once, 2nd and 3rd pillar both twice, activate lever

Turn all three rings twice, activate claw.

 

But at least there is some excitement while playing through the burrow. Experiment new ways to kill things, or a draugr might do something funny or unexpected, it's never completely the same twice, unlike the graybeard part.