*RANT* How The BoS Is Disgraced In FNV

[Fistandilius]

IIRC Kimball's pet glory hound is a complete moron, who would not ever be a general in the first place without kissing Kimball's ass. He has his troops just hold the line and wants to defeat the Legion in one battle, thinking that will overshadow Hanlon. All in all, he's willing to pointlessly sacrifice the life of his troops just to make a name for himself. It's kinda necessary as with a competent leader (like Hanlon) the second battle would probably not even take place. It also serves as an example of NCR's corruption. It makes sense really: the Republic is corrupt -> the general keeps his job only because the president is his friend -> the general is an incompetent glory hound idiot -> the NCR is actually getting it's ass handed to it by an insane warlord and his army of skirt wearing rapists. So to answer your question: yes, the Republic is incompetent.

 

I'm not a fan of Obsidian, or New Vegas in general to be honest so it doesn't matter to me either way, I just thought it was an interesting point to bring up.

 

Don't get me wrong, New Vegas is fun. It's more stable than Fallout 3 and I like the way they did the companions, but other than that, it's not much more than a glorified mod, using a ton of resources from FO3 and it's got a lot less to do, and it's big wide open and empty. I don't like being restricted by Deathclaws and Cazedores early on (and invisible walls), I don't like having a bunch of random skill checks in conversations that people claim give it an RPG quality (it doesn't), and I don't agree that it's more lore friendly because I don't see anything lore breaking in FO3.

Edited March 15, 2014 by Fistandilius

[kkk122]

Super Mutants, the Enclave, the BoS to name a few are either not lore friendly or just stupid in FO3.

- SMs are made from FEV research in V87. Except that research was clearly stated to only take place in Mariposa in a FO1 holodisk. Also the Enclave had to get into Mariposa to get data on FEV, which would not be necessary since they have been monitoring the vaults.

- The Enclave existed only on the Oil Rig and Navarro. Their exodus would only have weakened them, not make them insanely numerous.

- The BoS being all goodly-noble isn't strictly lore breaking as much as a crappy way of making a knights vs orcs with a post-apocalyptic mod.

- A British guy? Ok, just one ocean. Highly unlikely but possible. A Russian guy. How.

- A military soldier robot (any robot really) has an opinion. Said opinion contradicts its programming.

- V101 overseer kills the last person with any medical experience. Congratulations. Who gets to replace him? A robot which can't cut cake properly.

- "I was worried about those Ghouls. Now I can get back to worrying about important things, like what color to dye my hair. Thanks for everything!"

- The Enclave sends a soldier to enter a purifier code. That's one of the most technologically advanced factions in the wasteland. Apparently the robot refused.

 

Not only that, two potential companions follow you because they have been brainwashed. That's it. No more backstory. There were people. They brainwashed someone. That someone is now your companion. Enjoy.

 

You are not restricted by anything in NV. Go ahead and walk there. Seriously though, there are ways to get around them. You are not meant to, but there is, so you are not locked into anything by, say, unkillable NPCs who just get up after a few seconds. That makes the MQ so awesome, you can join anyone you want, kill whoever you wish, take any path - no matter how crazy. There is as little railroading in NV as possible. And the wasteland is not empty either. It's filled with believable settlements that actually make sense instead of just another orc/zombie/psychoraider ruin. The skill checks are just using you skills - what's wrong with that? Granted, you might not get the best ending, but if you chose a gunslinger cowboy type you can't help with Nightkin cure problem.

 

Oh and one more thing. "Fallout 3 is serious just like Fallout 1" argument. Yeah. The Republic of Dave. Tenpenny Residents (see quote above). Aliens. Vampires. Moira. Superhuman Gambit. Sierra. You know that they aren't not wacky just because FO3 doesn't aknowledge them as wacky, right? FO3 is just as insane it just doesn't joke about it.

 

If NV was a mod to 3 it would be called: "Fallout 3: What It should have been". All kidding aside though - Obsidian was given 11 months (I think - could be something else, but it was still very little) to complete an entire game and they did one hell of a job doing it.

Edited March 15, 2014 by kkk122

[MarchUntoTorment]

Personally, I think that a fusion between the two games would be ideal. The setting and aesthetic of Fallout 3, combined with the freedom of storyline and gameplay (not going to lie, the gameplay was far superior in almost every respect) of Fallout: New Vegas.

 

Of course, that's why TTW exists!

 

Also, I love NV's skill checks. Gives a sense of doubt to adding skills to certain areas - 'But if I put points into medicine instead of science, then maybe some mad scientist will end up building a super-death-robot that will kill a town? But if I put points into science instead of medicine, then maybe I won't be able to save a wounded kid...'. Those decisions were some of my favourite bits of NV, believe it or not.

[Fistandilius]

Super Mutants, the Enclave, the BoS to name a few are either not lore friendly or just stupid in FO3.

- SMs are made from FEV research in V87. Except that research was clearly stated to only take place in Mariposa in a FO1 holodisk. Also the Enclave had to get into Mariposa to get data on FEV, which would not be necessary since they have been monitoring the vaults.

- The Enclave existed only on the Oil Rig and Navarro. Their exodus would only have weakened them, not make them insanely numerous.

- The BoS being all goodly-noble isn't strictly lore breaking as much as a crappy way of making a knights vs orcs with a post-apocalyptic mod.

- A British guy? Ok, just one ocean. Highly unlikely but possible. A Russian guy. How.

- A military soldier robot (any robot really) has an opinion. Said opinion contradicts its programming.

- V101 overseer kills the last person with any medical experience. Congratulations. Who gets to replace him? A robot which can't cut cake properly.

- "I was worried about those Ghouls. Now I can get back to worrying about important things, like what color to dye my hair. Thanks for everything!"

- The Enclave sends a soldier to enter a purifier code. That's one of the most technologically advanced factions in the wasteland. Apparently the robot refused.

 

Not only that, two potential companions follow you because they have been brainwashed. That's it. No more backstory. There were people. They brainwashed someone. That someone is now your companion. Enjoy.

 

You are not restricted by anything in NV. Go ahead and walk there. Seriously though, there are ways to get around them. You are not meant to, but there is, so you are not locked into anything by, say, unkillable NPCs who just get up after a few seconds. That makes the MQ so awesome, you can join anyone you want, kill whoever you wish, take any path - no matter how crazy. There is as little railroading in NV as possible. And the wasteland is not empty either. It's filled with believable settlements that actually make sense instead of just another orc/zombie/psychoraider ruin. The skill checks are just using you skills - what's wrong with that? Granted, you might not get the best ending, but if you chose a gunslinger cowboy type you can't help with Nightkin cure problem.

 

Oh and one more thing. "Fallout 3 is serious just like Fallout 1" argument. Yeah. The Republic of Dave. Tenpenny Residents (see quote above). Aliens. Vampires. Moira. Superhuman Gambit. Sierra. You know that they aren't not wacky just because FO3 doesn't aknowledge them as wacky, right? FO3 is just as insane it just doesn't joke about it.

 

If NV was a mod to 3 it would be called: "Fallout 3: What It should have been". All kidding aside though - Obsidian was given 11 months (I think - could be something else, but it was still very little) to complete an entire game and they did one hell of a job doing it.

 

 

-The FEV was regulated by the government. The government funded the vault projects. Put two and two together.

 

-If you paid attention during FO3 and this entire thread, the BoS in FO3 wasn't the real BoS. The real BoS were the Outcasts.

 

-The Enclave only existed on the oil rig as far as any one on the west coast knew. It's naive to think that an organization made up of former members of the United States wouldn't have some kind of a base in duh... the capital city of the United States. Not to mention they were the only ones with Vertibirds until NCR captured some and they've always had better technology, so thinking they couldn't get back and forth across the country quickly again.. naive and ignorant thinking. We thought we were done fighting the Germans in world war I, but I remember something called World War II. Scientists thought the Giant Squid was extinct at one point, along with the Okapi, the Mountain Gorilla, the Narwal, and the megamouth shark.

 

-As far as the voice acting, first off, it's voice acting, I don't know why it's a big deal to you, but in case you haven't noticed, not everyone in America speaks english now. What makes you think that changes just because it's 200 years later when entire portions of the population are isolated. Hell, the way vault-tec operated, there could have been an all russian speaking vault, or a vault that had all the literature in russian and was filled with a bunch of japanese people.

 

-As far as the military robot is concerned, again? Are you incapable of something called humor? There's a lot of it going on in FO3, like the kids in Lamplight that troll you left and right because you can't kill them. Besides, if the Institution in Boston can create a full AI, why shouldn't robots have partial AI?

 

-In case you hadn't noticed the Overseer in 101 was more than a little messed up in the head. If you read the Overseers computer, you would realize that there was a previous party that left the vault earlier. It obviously ended in a complete failure because he refuses to let anyone in out of the vault even if it means torturing and killing someone to find out how someone got out. If Bethesda had taken time to flesh out the character more it would have made complete sense to find out that Amata's mother had been part of that group that went out of the vault and ended up dying because of it, giving the Overseer his irrational outlook.

 

-I have no response to the ghoul statement because I haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about.

 

-The enclave didn't send a soldier to enter the purifier code. They sent a soldier to force James into entering the code. He outsmarted them. Seriously, have you even played the game?

 

Yeah, you can get passed the Deathclaws and the Cazedores, once you played the game long enough to know the one little pathway to get beyond them. Because you're not outrunning either of them at level 1, and you're not outsneaking them either. The game does everything it can to railroad you into the main quest. Even if you continue east and skip Primm, no matter what city you run into you will eventually get dialogue for the main quest. I'm sick and tired of people pretending this is not the case because it absolutely IS the case. Start at Boulder City? Game tells you where Benny is. Start at the Mohave Outpost? Game wants you to go check out Nipton so you can meet the Legion. It doesn't matter where you go, unless you cut through the hidden valley and find a pathway north to Black Mountain and then find the ridge that goes in between the Mutants and the Blind Deathclaws of the railroad area. Because you're sure as hell not following the road north. And I have screenshots of this too.

 

In FO3, you leave 101, you can do whatever the hell you please. There are no level 20 Deathclaws waiting to tear you a new hide one city over or Cazedores waiting to poison you.

 

New Vegas has believable settlements? Oh really?

 

-So it makes perfect sense that 200 years after the bombs have gone off people are sleeping outside on pallets in West Side when there are perfectly good, perfectly safe buildings right there and all they have to do is take the boards off the windows and doors?

 

-They have power equipment to dig out a quarry, but they can't renovate houses or pick up a bunch of tin cans?

 

-They can repair laser weapons and get power stations and subways running, but they can't fix an automobile?

 

-How about when you write a mission where the pc is supposed to go shutdown a bottle press you actually research what a press looks like instead of creating a 3d model of a milling machine? Not to mention even if the caps were made in house you'd need rolls of sheet metal and cutting dyes to actually make bottle caps

 

Should I keep going?

 

At least it makes sense in DC is that there's no way anyone could rebuild anything with Super Mutants destroying the city and Raiders and mutated animals roaming the countryside.

 

How about companions that are forced on you in Dead Money and completely negate any chance of sneaking through the area that they won't let you leave and then just arbitrarily turn into a survival horror genre just because Chris Avallone felt like it? (http://forums.obsidian.net/index.php?automodule=blog&blogid=1&showentry=144)

 

The skill checks are garbage. It was a half hearted attempt to bring back RPG elements and try to make your character build matter. All it does is serve to create more restrictions. Want to do the Goodsprings quest? Well, you're either going to have to put a bunch of points into Barter, Speech, and Explosives to get the town to help you or wait until you're at a level that you can handle it yourself. Want to open that safe? Too bad, you got to wait until you put enough points into lockpick. But don't worry because there's no rhyme or reason to the safe levels anyways, so even though it has a hard lock on it, it's probably got garbage in it anyways.

 

I didn't say FO3 was serious. Who said it needed to be? Is that another arbitrary hardcore fallout fan requirement? You might have better luck over with the old folks at NMA. People here actually like the games.

 

My problems go well beyond the game. I don't like Avellone or Sawyer, or their attitudes towards the games or Bethesda. They were the ones who sold the rights in the first place. They're lucky Bethesda even agreed to the project. While I appreciate Sawyer's candidate approach to the limitations of the Gamebryo engine, that's fine for programming the game, but to throw Bethesda under the bus is totally unprofessional and uncalled for.

 

http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2011/12/05/new-vegas-dev-skyrim-save-bug-an-engine-level-issue-fix-would-require-a-large-time-commitment/

 

Then after letting one of their programmers trash Bethesda, Obsidian has the balls to say they'd like to work with them again on a New Vegas 2

http://gamerant.com/fallout-new-vegas-2-obsidian/

 

Of course they would. Why'd they sell the rights in the first place?

 

 

And while you're busy complaining about how unlore friendly FO3 is, let me read you something from your Fallout Bible:

 

"1. The information presented here is a rough draft and will need some heavy revision, but on some level, I wanted you guys to see the core information we had lying around so you can see some of the ideas that were being batted around.

Ideally, the information contained in these updates will be revised in the future based on your comments and possible evidence gathered from within the game - some of the people that put this documentation together (me and others) don't have nearly as much knowledge of facts within the game as some of you fans out there. Mistakes and inconsistencies are bound to crop up. When they do, we'll do our best to correct them.

2. I have gotten all the emails on the Bible, I have read them all, and even if I don't have time to respond to each one (special apologies to Jason Mical - I still have to read the PNP game fully), please keep additional questions coming. I want to know everything you want to know.

3. Some of this information you'll see in the Bible is going to be incomplete. The reason for this is because if we ever do a future Fallout product, I don't want to write Black Isle into a corner - we want to leave some holes to fill in ourselves... or holes to escape out of. So forgive the sins of omission when they crop up. Just consider them extra fuel for fan fiction plotlines."

 

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_Bible_0

 

None of your "lore" was ever set it in stone. The whole vault-tec project in Fallout 2 was retconned from Fallout 1, and let's review just exactly what Black Isle/Obsidian was doing with the lore, shall we?

 

On the West Coast

-Super Mutants? almost completely gone

-Ghouls? almost completely gone

-Enclave? gone

-BoS? dieing out at an extreme rate

 

So what exactly did that leave you for Fallout 3? Some humans and a bunch of mutated animals? Exciting stuff.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Fistandilius

[kkk122]

That leaves you a room for something new? You know stuff that was in previous games was never supposed to be the only stuff in the world, right? SMs, Enclave and BoS aren't absolutely necessary for a game to be Fallout. Bringing them back feels forced most of the time (to me at least), especially BoS. And the East Coast chapter not being real BoS is precisely my point - why make it BoS in the first place? Why not make a new one? Or take one that was never presented in a not semi-canon game, have a perfectly good excuse to mess with them (it's not only semi canon, but also set over 100 years earlier) and have a reason to be technologically advanced because they worship technology (if you haven't played Tactics - Reavers)? They could fit into the tech-knights role and not much about them was ever really said and even if it was messing them up wouldn't be as much of a problem as messing up BoS, with FOT being semi-canon. As for the Enclave point - okay yeah, they could exist, but why are there so many? They could be there, but why are they able to set those outposts in the middle of nowhere? And why is their PA weaker than T51-b, despite being called APA MkII? And is having SMs with a bit more to them than just wasteland orcs too much to ask? Seriously, Bethesda proved their ability to come up with both new creatures and factions that really fit into the world (like swampfolk), why rehash the old ones?

 

The skill checks are there to make sure your skill choice provides consequences. If you want to finish GS quest, that's okay, but why should you be able to do it as a reclusive nerdy repairman, who barely knows how to hold a gun and can't even maintain eye contact in a conversation? You are given options. Sometimes, if you can't, you will not solve all the problems in the world.

 

NV might do whatever it can to railroad me, but I can still break free, provided I know how. Kill Dad in V112 (no mods, no console) and I'll agree with you about being able to do whatever you wish. And going wherever you wish, while technically possible, is kinda hard to justify in FO3 (harder than in NV) - "I need to find my father, who ran away from the vault" rather seems important. That's the problem with Beth's games post Morrowind: you are able to walk freely, but the plot always tells you not to. Morrowind gave us the "blend in" quest from Caius. And I'll take explained railroading before unexplained "your character agrees" of FO3.

 

The ghoul statement is a quote from a Tenpenny Resident thanking you for killing Philips and his friends. Those exact words are said to you. In a post-apocalyptic wasteland.

 

While the Overseer point is valid, you do not adress the other one, which was actually more important. People know Andy is a clumsy moron. Why is he even allowed near the clinic. And why in their discussion about unlocking the vault, the lack of a doctor is never brought up? Why can't you ever bring it up?

 

As for the settlements - how do you know the buildings in Westside are safe? Housing not being renovated if kind of a point (except most can't afford it), but renovations were made in the Strip. What bothers me in FO3 is that there is no real food supply for almost anyone, except for some ancient pre-war things. In NV most settlements have some source of food (like a garden-thing near a house or a brahmin pen). No cars is mostly engine limitations. I'm not sure but I think NCR had some cars, though (again, I'm not sure).

 

And the DM DLC forcing you into survival horror? Still better than OA, which forced you into Call of Duty. And at least DM gave me an amazing story with it, unlike OA, which had, by definition, next no story at all.

 

I really hope we get an NV2 but at the same time I hope it's just a name for another Obsidian Fallout (maybe this time with some actual time to develop it) set somewhere else with no canon answers to FNV (previous games had canon endings, but there was never a fundamental change in how the game ended for you, mostly how many died while you were at it or fates of some secondary characters - certainly not the case in NV).

Edited March 16, 2014 by kkk122

[Fistandilius]

That leaves you a room for something new? You know stuff that was in previous games was never supposed to be the only stuff in the world, right? SMs, Enclave and BoS aren't absolutely necessary for a game to be Fallout. Bringing them back feels forced most of the time (to me at least), especially BoS. And the East Coast chapter not being real BoS is precisely my point - why make it BoS in the first place? Why not make a new one? Or take one that was never presented in a not semi-canon game, have a perfectly good excuse to mess with them (it's not only semi canon, but also set over 100 years earlier) and have a reason to be technologically advanced because they worship technology (if you haven't played Tactics - Reavers)? They could fit into the tech-knights role and not much about them was ever really said and even if it was messing them up wouldn't be as much of a problem as messing up BoS, with FOT being semi-canon. As for the Enclave point - okay yeah, they could exist, but why are there so many? They could be there, but why are they able to set those outposts in the middle of nowhere? And why is their PA weaker than T51-b, despite being called APA MkII? And is having SMs with a bit more to them than just wasteland orcs too much to ask? Seriously, Bethesda proved their ability to come up with both new creatures and factions that really fit into the world (like swampfolk), why rehash the old ones?

 

The skill checks are there to make sure your skill choice provides consequences. If you want to finish GS quest, that's okay, but why should you be able to do it as a reclusive nerdy repairman, who barely knows how to hold a gun and can't even maintain eye contact in a conversation? You are given options. Sometimes, if you can't, you will not solve all the problems in the world.

 

NV might do whatever it can to railroad me, but I can still break free, provided I know how. Kill Dad in V112 (no mods, no console) and I'll agree with you about being able to do whatever you wish. And going wherever you wish, while technically possible, is kinda hard to justify in FO3 (harder than in NV) - "I need to find my father, who ran away from the vault" rather seems important. That's the problem with Beth's games post Morrowind: you are able to walk freely, but the plot always tells you not to. Morrowind gave us the "blend in" quest from Caius. And I'll take explained railroading before unexplained "your character agrees" of FO3.

 

The ghoul statement is a quote from a Tenpenny Resident thanking you for killing Philips and his friends. Those exact words are said to you. In a post-apocalyptic wasteland.

 

While the Overseer point is valid, you do not adress the other one, which was actually more important. People know Andy is a clumsy moron. Why is he even allowed near the clinic. And why in their discussion about unlocking the vault, the lack of a doctor is never brought up? Why can't you ever bring it up?

 

As for the settlements - how do you know the buildings in Westside are safe? Housing not being renovated if kind of a point (except most can't afford it), but renovations were made in the Strip. What bothers me in FO3 is that there is no real food supply for almost anyone, except for some ancient pre-war things. In NV most settlements have some source of food (like a garden-thing near a house or a brahmin pen). No cars is mostly engine limitations. I'm not sure but I think NCR had some cars, though (again, I'm not sure).

 

And the DM DLC forcing you into survival horror? Still better than OA, which forced you into Call of Duty. And at least DM gave me an amazing story with it, unlike OA, which had, by definition, next no story at all.

 

I really hope we get an NV2 but at the same time I hope it's just a name for another Obsidian Fallout (maybe this time with some actual time to develop it) set somewhere else with no canon answers to FNV (previous games had canon endings, but there was never a fundamental change in how the game ended for you, mostly how many died while you were at it or fates of some secondary characters - certainly not the case in NV).

 

And yet when Obsidian did get a chance to do a sequel (new vegas) they didn't do anything new. They brought back Marcus, they brought back Ghouls (Jason Bright) and they went with the same old party line for the Bos "we only care about technology, so we'll just hide in a bunker now because we're dying out". They all felt like cameo appearances in their own games.

 

You don't seem to grasp what I'm saying about the skill checks at all. Having a skill check in a conversation is a lazy, worthless way of doing it. I have no problem with having different ways to complete quests based on your skill set, but the way they did it with conversation checks is crap.

 

So now you admit that NV railroads you, but you know how to "break free" yet when FO3 has zero restrictions, you claim it's more restrictive because you feel obligated to find your dad. That makes absolutely zero sense.

 

The Tenpenny residents are racists. I should have thought that was obvious. They couldn't care less about Roy Phillips. And Roy Phillips is an *** anyways. Even if you side with him he goes back and kills the residents. The point is, that both sides are equally guilty of being racists and there is no "good guy." It's called moral ambiguity and it's something that Bethesda has done well in both FO and Skyrim. It's called realism. Not every choice is going to have a "white knight" option.

 

As far as Andy goes, again, the overseer is slightly insane and it's a case of having no qualified persons. Jonas was Jame's assistant/apparentice. When you lose your number 1 and your backup, there may not always be a qualified third option. Also, there's no evidence to indicate one way or another if Andy is even functioning properly. The guy that is in charge of maintenance is busy cleaning up the vault after the Radroach infestation, the continued vandalism by the rebels, and the water chip malfunction. It's also a source of shock humor.

 

That's your rational for Westside? That we don't _know_ that the building's are safe? All those buildings and none of them are safe? How about the trailer in the middle of town? Better than sleeping outdoors.

 

Engine limitations on cars? You realize an engine is just a big powerplant right? Even the internal combustion engines today just take in air and fuel, create an explosion that pushes the pistons, which turns the crankshaft, which is transfered through the transmission to rotate the rear wheels (or front depending on if it's front wheel drive or not). Any engine type would do and all the generators in each of the power plants use the same engine technology to turn the turbines to generate electricity.

 

FO3 has brahmin all over the place. Arufu uses them as a food source and its mentioned in the quest. The caravan traders visit each city and at every city the shop keeps and the people who run the restaurants all mention the shipments they get from the caravans. There is even a brahmin inside Megaton and if you have point lookout, Tobias and later Nadine import Punga Fruits for sale. There are lots of food sources going on behind the scenes, but the point is food is scarce in an area where you have all kinds of things like random military robots, Raiders, Super Mutants and mutant animals destroying things. If you go to the Hilltop Farms ruin it's mentioned that they tried to rebuild and start planting crops but the soil was far more irradiated in DC than it is out west and the last journal entry mentions travelers arriving and their intent to hide. They were obviously killed off by Raiders or taken by Slavers.

 

DM was a torture porn for people who just wanted to hear the story. OA still alllows for multiple play styles and Benji even mentions it when you first land on the cliffs. You can go in guns blazing or stealth your way. Large portions of the quest can even be skipped if you just want to run through it and ignore the enemy. You're also given plenty of backup from other troops in the area. You can even recruit your own platoon. And it was obviously a nod to Metal Gear, not CoD. DM was a lot longer, needlessly more difficult, and everything they managed to do right with it, they screwed up with something else. The characters were interesting, but you can't take them with you after the DLC. The area was interesting, but it's too dangerous to want to even explore it. Elijah was interesting, but he's a total ****. And then we're introduced to Christine who is obviously supposed to be Veronica's lover, and yet there's absolutely zero dialogue for it.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Fistandilius

[kkk122]

No, no, no. I don't give a damn about Tenpenny Residents being racist. I meant "dye my hair". That was honestly a horrible, horrible moment, even despite being an unimportant detail. It's painfully out of place, just like the entire Tenpenny Tower. And this time I won't buy the "humour" excuse, because the entire tower behaves like that. This line is just an example. And curiously I was pointing out that it was not realistic.

 

The new things include: Legion, Securitrons, Boomers (by new I mean never seen in a published FO game). The old stuff either evolved based on its previous behaviour (like NCR) or is just there as a secondary or optional thing (BoS, Marcus). And when they were brought back they didn't change their role much. None of it was just taking an outfit from an old faction and putting it in a role it wasn't really made for. NV could easily have existed without the BoS or SMs.

 

I really loved DM. It was neither needlessly difficult nor too long (just my opinion but it is about as valid as yours). Playing on very hard and PN. It is hard. That's why there is the message at the start. It's supposed to provide a challenge for experienced players. Not provide new players with loot.

 

I'm trying to say, that NV restrictions, when bypassed, are nearly meaningless on the role-playing level. Besides, getting to Benny is more like a long tutorial, when you get to know the Mojave and its people. After you get him there are no restrictions whatsoever. After you find Benny, you can kill him, House, the ambassador, Caesar. Or join whichever faction you wish. Or not join anyone at all and win the dam for yourself. FO3 MQ is linear, offering you little to no free will and even if it did give you a choice of joining the Enclave, you would choose between "White Knights of Goodly-Goodness" and "Genocidal Fascists". And again - kill Dad in V112 with no mods or cheats and I'll believe in freedom in FO3.

 

The food problem is that it's just not there (the food). The caravans need to get it somewhere too and importing it from the west doesn't seem like a viable solution. My problem is that Megaton has A brahmin. I know that it is supposed to represent a larger group by presenting a fraction of it and I wouldn't speak of it if there was a Brahmin pen with 2-3 cows in it. What I saw is one cow near the clinic. That's it. Punga might be imported but again - it's never seen.

 

And conversation skill checks aren't lazy. Granted, they might not be perfect, but you are mostly suggesting a solution to a problem. There are many instances when you use your own skills outside conversation too (like repair the solar panel in Nellis). And at least you use some of your skills and are given a choice not to. Unlike FO3 when barter checks were automatic.

 

Are we at the point where we just scream opinions at each other for no reason when we clearly want different things from a game or do we have to argue some more? More importantly, were we ever not at that point?

Edited March 16, 2014 by kkk122

[Fistandilius]

No, no, no. I don't give a damn about Tenpenny Residents being racist. I meant "dye my hair". That was honestly a horrible, horrible moment, even despite being an unimportant detail. It's painfully out of place, just like the entire Tenpenny Tower. And this time I won't buy the "humour" excuse, because the entire tower behaves like that. This line is just an example. And curiously I was pointing out that it was not realistic.

 

The new things include: Legion, Securitrons, Boomers (by new I mean never seen in a published FO game). The old stuff either evolved based on its previous behaviour (like NCR) or is just there as a secondary or optional thing (BoS, Marcus). And when they were brought back they didn't change their role much. None of it was just taking an outfit from an old faction and putting it in a role it wasn't really made for. NV could easily have existed without the BoS or SMs.

 

I really loved DM. It was neither needlessly difficult nor too long (just my opinion but it is about as valid as yours). Playing on very hard and PN. It is hard. That's why there is the message at the start. It's supposed to provide a challenge for experienced players. Not provide new players with loot.

 

I'm trying to say, that NV restrictions, when bypassed, are nearly meaningless on the role-playing level. Besides, getting to Benny is more like a long tutorial, when you get to know the Mojave and its people. After you get him there are no restrictions whatsoever. After you find Benny, you can kill him, House, the ambassador, Caesar. Or join whichever faction you wish. Or not join anyone at all and win the dam for yourself. FO3 MQ is linear, offering you little to no free will and even if it did give you a choice of joining the Enclave, you would choose between "White Knights of Goodly-Goodness" and "Genocidal Fascists". And again - kill Dad in V112 with no mods or cheats and I'll believe in freedom in FO3.

 

The food problem is that it's just not there (the food). The caravans need to get it somewhere too and importing it from the west doesn't seem like a viable solution. My problem is that Megaton has A brahmin. I know that it is supposed to represent a larger group by presenting a fraction of it and I wouldn't speak of it if there was a Brahmin pen with 2-3 cows in it. What I saw is one cow near the clinic. That's it. Punga might be imported but again - it's never seen.

 

And conversation skill checks aren't lazy. Granted, they might not be perfect, but you are mostly suggesting a solution to a problem. There are many instances when you use your own skills outside conversation too (like repair the solar panel in Nellis). And at least you use some of your skills and are given a choice not to. Unlike FO3 when barter checks were automatic.

 

Are we at the point where we just scream opinions at each other for no reason when we clearly want different things from a game or do we have to argue some more? More importantly, were we ever not at that point?

 

I really never had any hope (or intention) that you might change your mind, but you brought up a bunch of specifics points that I didn't and don't agree with so I made my counter arguments. I don't see why this should be taken as "screaming opinions." I gave my opinion and you countered it with a bunch of things you had an issue with. I addressed those issues. I don't agree with you. If I sound defensive its because I have found that fans of the original FO games can be some of the most negative and intolerant people I have ever met, but I don't know your opinion outside of what you've said in this thread.

 

I really didn't like the Tenpenny Tower quest and I would be willing to bet it wouldn't be popular at all if they hadn't tied it into Megaton as an option to get the penthouse.

 

I did DM on level 50, so I think it was needlessly difficult. It should have been a walk in the park at that level. I could list more specifics, but you've played the DLC, you know what I'm going to say already. You obviously enjoyed it. I did not. I don't heed video game warnings because too many people/games have "cried wolf." I expected to not be able to leave the DLC. I didn't expect it to be ridiculously tedious.

 

You argue that the economics and logistics in New Vegas make more sense. I don't agree. I think given the relatively large portion of the area that isn't under threat at all and the fact that they have a rather large military presence, there should be more infrastructure. You argue that there is very few signs of economics and logistics in FO3. I'm arguing that the economic and logistical situation in the area is poor because the entire Capital Wasteland is under threat from the various enemy factions and doesn't even have fresh water sources like Vegas. NV chooses to put a few things in your face and trot it out as addressing the situation as a whole, but it falls short to me. FO3 chooses to not put those things in your face at all and gives you just enough information to show you how it works. For example you can eat Squirrel and Iguana, but you never see a Squirrel or Iguana in the game. Because the game is about solving quests and exploring and not about figuring out how the Brass Lantern managed to find a Squirrel.

 

Your point about being given different options to finish the game is well taken, but just like the skill checks, I still think it's all just aesthetics and pointless. If the skill checks really did their job and had an impact, then they would be a factor in how you built your character. But at the end of the day, let's be honest. When you choose a character build, you're not wondering how to build a speech driven character in NV, you're wondering which type of combat build you're going to choose... melee, hand to hand, stealth, etc. If you believe for a minute that this is not the case, then I suggest talking your way out of a Deathclaw fight and get back to me.

 

Yes, in NV, you're given 5 different options to finish the main quest, but of the three options I took, most of the quests remained the same. The only differences were minor things (killing Mr House, a few extra quests for NCR). In the end you still end up at the Hoover Dam with the only difference being some lame slideshows. I say its garbage because I have yet to see any game developer actually take the time to create actual different game paths. It's kinda like which side you pick in Skyrim. At the end of the day you're still going to end up fighting at Whiterun, clearing X number of Forts and finishing in either Windhelm or Solitude. The locations change, but the plots are more or less the same. If you're going to do something half hearted, then I'm going to give you a half hearted response. And that's how I feel about NV.

 

I played NV before FO3. I enjoyed the companions. Loved that they each had their own quests. The DLC's didn't impress me at all. After I did the main quest I found a few minor quests in each town, but for the most part I kept looking for things to do and wondering why there were so many locations on the map that had little to no point. I like the factions and the fact that there is added stability, but at the end of the day it's content that keeps you playing.

 

I found a lot more things to do in FO3 and I spent a ton more time on it. It's not even close. I would say NV has more replay value because of factions and the option to join the Legion or side with the others as well as the hardcore and wild west modes. I would say the Karma system isn't perfect in either game, but it works a lot better in FO3.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Fistandilius

[kkk122]

I really found a lot less to do in FO3. The marked side quests were few and far apart and the unmarked ones were mostly talk to a guy or collect a specific item indefinitely because they need it for something they are making. And if you didn't find sidequests in each town in NV, then we probably played different NVs because I even found quests in Searchlight (from Astor) and Nipton (one from Vulpes) and they have been wiped out.

 

When it comes to difficulty I really hate what FO3 does to it. It's basically Beth's standard policy to throw an enemy with hundreds of HP against the player, which just makes the fight longer and more tedious. Myself, I much prefer a Deathclaw that dies after, let's say, 7 shots with a semi-decent gun, but kills you with two hits to a walking tank that scratches like a kitten (probably put it too harshly but you get the idea).

 

I don't see how the different MQ options are the same in NV. Granted, they will be similar, but quests in Legion and NCR are quite different. Not to mention hte Indy option that just accepts any outcome of the quests you choose to do (or not). What really matters is whether or not you are actually making a character or just playing a game. Because the best Indy ending might not be much different from House ending, but they are likely largely different if you take a look at your character's personality and goals. And while Skyrim's civil war was underdeveloped (I blame their marketing department and their "epic date") it provided a difficult decision to be made, that wasn't actually black and white. I really liked the story aspect of it, even if the execution was a little lacking.

 

The karma system was IMO a bad idea to begin with. Most of the time you actually care about what it says (so not in NV) it will force you into being a saint or a complete monster. The neutral option that should've been something in between is a crazy bipolar weirdo. If anything there should not have been a karma system in NV, especially since the reputation system works a lot better and is very well made.

[Fistandilius]

I really found a lot less to do in FO3. The marked side quests were few and far apart and the unmarked ones were mostly talk to a guy or collect a specific item indefinitely because they need it for something they are making. And if you didn't find sidequests in each town in NV, then we probably played different NVs because I even found quests in Searchlight (from Astor) and Nipton (one from Vulpes) and they have been wiped out.

 

When it comes to difficulty I really hate what FO3 does to it. It's basically Beth's standard policy to throw an enemy with hundreds of HP against the player, which just makes the fight longer and more tedious. Myself, I much prefer a Deathclaw that dies after, let's say, 7 shots with a semi-decent gun, but kills you with two hits to a walking tank that scratches like a kitten (probably put it too harshly but you get the idea).

 

I don't see how the different MQ options are the same in NV. Granted, they will be similar, but quests in Legion and NCR are quite different. Not to mention hte Indy option that just accepts any outcome of the quests you choose to do (or not). What really matters is whether or not you are actually making a character or just playing a game. Because the best Indy ending might not be much different from House ending, but they are likely largely different if you take a look at your character's personality and goals. And while Skyrim's civil war was underdeveloped (I blame their marketing department and their "epic date") it provided a difficult decision to be made, that wasn't actually black and white. I really liked the story aspect of it, even if the execution was a little lacking.

 

The karma system was IMO a bad idea to begin with. Most of the time you actually care about what it says (so not in NV) it will force you into being a saint or a complete monster. The neutral option that should've been something in between is a crazy bipolar weirdo. If anything there should not have been a karma system in NV, especially since the reputation system works a lot better and is very well made.

 

I did all the side quests. I found the ones in seachlight. There's one involving killing a bunch of ghouls and then hunting around for hours to find their bodies so you can get the dog tags. Then there's the one where you find a bunch of crap for the mercenary and then he tries to kill you. I didn't do a quest for Vulpes because I didn't side with the Legion on my two playthroughs and I started playing FO3 after that, but I located the Mayor's hidden stash and even located the guy who "won the lottery" out in the wasteland running from some scorpions. I did ALL the side quests I could find. I did the one with Jason Bright, the one with the singer, the one with the Nightkin, and the one for Arcade in Novac. I did the one for the guy who tricks you into fighting a bunch of geckos in goodsprings, along with saving the town, raiding the schoolhouse, clearing out the coyotes from the cave, and the tutorials. I got Idolized status with NCR, Goodsprings, Novac, the Great Khans, Freeside, the Boomers, etc. etc. I even managed to get the BoS to give me above villainy status because I did a few quests for them before blowing up their bunkers. I also managed to get the Powder Gangers to jump me up from villainy. I think because I helped Vault 19, but I can't recall why.

 

NV took me 2 weeks to get through to the point I was bored and couldn't find anything else to do. FO3 took me at least 2 months to get through playing it just as much.

 

I could care less if an enemy has 7 hits or 100. If its done right, it doesn't matter. You want to argue that a "good gun" will take down a deathclaw in 7 hits, but I can take out an Overlord with three bottlecap mines. What's the difference? If you can't come up with a strategy for them, that's on you. There is no strategy to beat a Deathclaw on level 1, because it just won't happen, and even if by some miracle you do take one down, there's only a handful of spots where you're not going to get swarmed by a whole pack of them anyways.

 

If you can't see that several of the "endings" require the same mq, then you must be easily entertained, because you can actually do the independent ending on the same save as a mr house ending or an ncr ending because it more or less lets you use whatever quests you want. You don't even have to start a new character.

 

And I don't agree that it should come down to character build either. If you have to roleplay to make the game better, then that's not the game, that's you. The only character building you can do gamewise in NV is combat style, like I said. All those stupid speech checks don't make a lick of difference in how your character approaches things. If they gave a crap about character builds they should have had multiple ways to complete quests based on your stats. But they don't.

 

The reputation system works in NV because it has factions. Factions and companions were done very well in New Vegas. But people forget that Bethesda laid the groundwork for all this crap and Obsidian didn't have to deal with it. Aside from creating a some new meshes most of the hard work was already done for them. They were able to devote time to new features such as reputation and refining companions with a companion wheel, etc.

 

Bethesda had to build the entire thing more or less from engine form, creating and debugging the VATs system, building a companion and karma system (these things weren't in Oblivion, although there were some quest related companions), creating ALL their meshes from scratch, etc. Not to mention there was a TON more research done into the DC area than what Obsidian bothered to do for New Vegas. New Vegas may have only had 11 months to build the game, but all the hard work was already done.