Ulfric Stormcloak Dossier

[Brandy1123]

The Nords are extremely single minded in there dislike of other races. People ask why side with the Stormcloaks? I say you don't really have another option. The Imperials are puppets of the Thalmor. The Thalmor are just as bad as the nords when it comes to biggotry and racial hatred. At least the Nords don't call you a dog and tell you that you belong at their feet. The Nords are protecting their homes from the Thalmor imvasion. They already have seen what the Thalmor have done to the Impeiral city. Even Tullius bows down to Elenwin and not the possible future high King (Queen) in Jarl Elisef. Tullius even yells at her in the peace conference and undermines her authority with insubordinate and inappropriate patronization. When it comes down to it. You are in Skyrim. It is the Birthplace and home to the Nords. It is their lands, their rights and their promise. All others are guests and in times of war, if you are not of the tribe, you are a possible enemy. When you brandish steel and a viscous tongue, you cannot expect to be welcome.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Brandy_123

[Hallgarth]

"If only there were a way at the High Hrothgar negotiations, to throw in an option to eliminate the Thalmor from Skyrim as common ground between both the Empire and Stormcloaks to stop the war entirely, using said dossier as evedence."

This.

 

"I've assumed that everyone who sides with the Stormcloaks has never read a mod description or the dossier on Ulfric."

What a foolish assumption. You've obviously not thought the issue through.

The Stormcloaks are the best choice because they are the only choice; the Empire stands no chance. Imperial supporters presume a Day of Reckoning, a Secret Plan to Defeat the Thalmor at some nebulous future date of Imperial resurgence that will never come, as the Empire has already surrendered to the Thalmor and will only continue to get weaker over time thanks to their foolish decision to allow themselves to be infiltrated and compromised.

Ulfric's plan to attack the Thalmor abroad after driving them from his homeland (with a little help from the Dragonborn) may have little hope of succeeding, but the Empire's plan to continue to allow themselves to be systematically undermined, to have their best people kidnapped, tortured, and killed, means they have no hope whatsoever.

How many successful rebel leaders have started out as "Uncooperative Assets" of some interested power only to be underestimated? Quite a few. How many empires have stood while their most powerful enemies prowled their streets with paramilitary agents posing as religious police unchecked by any authority and with practically unlimited powers of detention, interrogation, and assassination? None that I know of.

Ironically it would take a rebel leader within the Empire to overthrow it and kick out the Thalmor to actually give the Empire a fighting chance. So long as the Thalmor have a license to kill anywhere in Empire territory the Empire is doomed. At least under the Stormcloaks Skyrim can stand and fight, and with the clock ticking on the Dominion's other conquests such as Hammerfell the sooner the better.

Finally there's the issue of the about-face of the Thalmor toward the Stormcloaks. Have you noticed that despite the uncontested power to undermine the Empire the Thalmor are as of the Dragonborn's arrival focused exclusively on the Stormcloaks? They don't even staff their office in Solitude. They can sense the Empire becoming irrelevant.

The Thalmor chose, above many other prime targets, to kidnap Thorald in the largely independent Whiterun Hold, a pretty big risk. That choice was made much more recently than the penning of Ulfric's musty old Dossier, and it tells a whole new story: Thorald was perceived as dangerous for his tactical and/or strategic significance to the Stormcloaks, not for any religious infractions actual or alleged. The Thalmor are scared to death of the Stormcloaks. Why kidnap and torture a suspected 'Cloak despite a wide selection of choice Imperial targets if your primary threat is the Empire? The worm has already started to turn and the Thalmor sense it; if they didn't they'd be kidnapping Brina Merilis or framing Ambarys Rendar, not wasting time on Thorald Greymane.

This puts the final piece of the puzzle into place: the Thalmor always take Stormcloak prisoners, never Imperial. The Thalmor, agents of chaos whose masters went to great lengths to secure for them the power to undermine and assassinate anywhere in Empire territory, are doing everything they can to help the Empire in Skyrim. Talk about the dog that doesn't bark. They say all those Stormcloak prisoners are headed to the rack because they've committed the heresy of Talos worship, but we know in Thorald's case it was because they [incorrectly] suspected he was devoting his martial skills to the Stormcloaks. How many more of those Hemskirs the Thalmor claim they've caught are really Thoralds?

If Ulfric really were the patsy he was thought to be when the Dossier was written why are the Thalmor putting all their weight against the Stormcloak Rebellion? If the Empire wins the Thalmor win. If the 'Cloaks win every asset in Skyrim from High Hrothgar to the College of Winterhold to the Shrine of Talos in Solitude and the College full of propagandists who will promptly spin Talos into a Thalmor defeat suddenly goes hostile. For the Thalmor a 'Cloak victory is a disaster. The Thalmor seem not only to know it but to fear it. Provided the wisdom to see it, the Dragonborn has the unique opportunity to make that fear come true.

Divide and conquer. Skyrim is part of the Empire. If it leaves, then both sides are weaker than the whole.

 

"with the clock ticking on the Dominion's other conquests such as Hammerfell the sooner the better."

Hammerfell successfully drove out the Thalmor five years after the war ended between the Empire and the Dominion. There are no significant Aldmeri forces in Hammerfell at this time, if any.

 

" If the Empire wins the Thalmor win"

The Thalmor are trying to keep the war going for as long as possible. Keep the region unbalanced. If the Empire win, then the Empire wins. Ultimately the Empire is at a forced peace with the Aldmeri Dominion that won't last. Unless something drastic happens, then the Empire, nor the other states will be able to withstand the Dominion. The best bet that Ulfric can hope for, is that when the Dominion fight the Empire again, that by the time the Empire falls, the Dominion are too weak to continue into Skyrim. Of course if the Empire falls then Skyrim will be surrounded from Cyrodiil, Morrowind and High Rock.

They kidnapped Thorald, because they didn't want the Stormcloaks winning too easily. In truth without the Dragonborn's help, neither the Empire detachment in Skyrim, or the Stormcloaks are strong enough to do anything about the other. They are at a stand-off.

The fact is that the Empire (High Rock, Cyrodiil, Skyrim, Morrowind, and formerly Hammerfell) couldn't withstand the might of the Dominion. Something had to be done, and Titus Mede II made the wrong choice, giving them too much power within the Empire's borders.

 

 

Another thing is, that it happens to be Ulfric and the Stormcloaks, who are leading the revolt. They are the same as the Thalmor in so many ways. They see other races as inferior, and have a superiority complex that rivals that of the Thalmor.

[Arlen1000]

Sorry to necro this post but, the choice is simple, depending upon what race yosu play, especially the human races, you go for the stormcloaks, being overlorded by the thalmor is just not an acceptable option. As an Elf, you go thalmor/empire as the repercussions of the thalmor losing the next war would probably mean some horrid things for elves. As a beast race, well your screwed either way as you will be inferior regardless of which side wins. Everything can be broken down into the most simple tenet, WHO WILL BENEFIT ME THE MOST

[leewells]

The Nords are extremely single minded in there dislike of other races. People ask why side with the Stormcloaks? I say you don't really have another option. The Imperials are puppets of the Thalmor. The Thalmor are just as bad as the nords when it comes to biggotry and racial hatred. At least the Nords don't call you a dog and tell you that you belong at their feet. The Nords are protecting their homes from the Thalmor imvasion. They already have seen what the Thalmor have done to the Impeiral city. Even Tullius bows down to Elenwin and not the possible future high King (Queen) in Jarl Elisef. Tullius even yells at her in the peace conference and undermines her authority with insubordinate and inappropriate patronization. When it comes down to it. You are in Skyrim. It is the Birthplace and home to the Nords. It is their lands, their rights and their promise. All others are guests and in times of war, if you are not of the tribe, you are a possible enemy. When you brandish steel and a viscous tongue, you cannot expect to be welcome.

I hope I'm not necro'ing too bad, but a question is to be asked to why the Thalmor would incite a civil war or at least sit back and watch and give Ulfric a wider girth if they have full control over the Empire. The only answers I can come up with is: The Thalmor aren't in control as much as we're lead to believe -- perhaps that's what they want the empire to think.

 

This dossier is a bombshell to be honest, and it is a pity there isn't some way to undermine Ulfric during this civil war while fighting for the stormcloaks.

 

Here is the way I see it: The only valid choice is to side with the stormcloaks as much as it pains me to say it. I've considered many valid arguments including a divided empire is weakest, even the one above. The way I see it, Ulfric did the Thalmor a favor by inciting a rebellion, however as it states, the Talmor does not want a victory by the stormcloaks either, nor do they want them to loose. They want the civil war to drag on forever weakening both Skyrim and Cyrodil. The most devastating thing that can happen is that Skyrim win's its independence, because things like that are usually contagious, spreading to neighbors like Southern Hammerfel which are declared defectors by the emperor for not conceding to the White-Gold Concordant. This could also incite rebellions from within the Empire as well. As it stands the empire believes that it has no chance against the Thalmor and cooperation is the only solution. Skyrim's independence can be a reminder that this is just not so.

 

While under the rule of the Thalmor run Empire, there can be no future for the Dragonborn or the blades. Also many factions the dragonborn may side with such as the companions are heavily Talos worshipers. I cannot possibly see any future for Skyrim with the Thalmor running about. However, if Skyrim was independant, I can see many rebels from Cyrodil defecting to Skyrim and a re-establishment of a true Dragonborn emperor in Skyrim that can and has the possibility to push the Thalmor out and re-establish the dragonborn in the seat of Cyrodil.

 

Because of this, I have only played the empire side once to see what the ending was. But I'll agree that there has to be someone other than Ulfric to lead Skyrim...

Edited January 13, 2014 by leewells

[Hallgarth]

When ESVI comes out (2020 or whenever) I wouldn't be surprised if history stated that the Dragonborn became the High King/Queen. It fits, and the Nords would follow him/her.

Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are the same as the Thalmor. Think every other race is beneath them. He would make a poor High King.

 

Then again, wouldn't the Dragonborn technically have a claim to the Cyrodiil throne? They are of the dragonblood.

[C42UMAMA]

Honestly I agree with a large number of posts, 90% of the reason I end up siding with the stormcloaks was to stop the many assassination attempts of the thalmor that they attempt on you should you let the empire win. The thing is, when you get through the main quest past the embassy, the thalmor begin to actively hunt you down. The best way to stop that is siding with the storm cloaks. Now some people say the stormcloaks are a bit racist, I agree, but the thalmor are FAR more racist by an enourmous landslide. Every action they do is about wiping non-elves out. They attempt it in the mages guild, they stirred the civil war up to cause a rebellion as well. Another point is made in that yes, Ulfrics uprising was initially supported by the thalmor, but they only wanted to keep the sides fighting to weaken everyone else. Thing is, they know that either side winning would be bad for them. But the stormcloaks winning would be worst, as that'd both encourage the last province of the empire(high rock) to split from cyrodil, and the entire political spectrum would fall into chaos, they'd be at risk as much as the empire.

 

And it's true that thalmor are running around in the rest of the empire, butchering people left and right. You don't have to be a talos worshipper for them to go after you.

 

And when I think about it the empire is going to die, even if it does somehow beat the thalmor after winning the civil war in skyrim. Fact is, it's economically crippled, caught in endless corruption and if the thalmor aren't manipulating it like they are at the beginning of skyrim, the empire would be the puppets of some other faction, and because it's military is showing many signs of severe weakness(inferior equipment and training for example, more emphasis on mercenary conscripts who fight purely for money, not out of civic duty ect), it wouldn't surprise me in 20-30 years, the cyrodillic military wouldn't even exist purely cause the money wasn't there to pay for it because of all the manipulation from within and outside of it. Any faction wanting to take it wouldn't even need much of a military presence if any at all to remove it from power.

 

The elder scrolls 6 will probably focus on the rise of a new empire.

 

Hope I didn't necro to much.

Edited January 14, 2014 by C42UMAMA

[Hallgarth]

Every action they do is about wiping non-elves out.

Actually the Thalmor's actions are to wipe out anything the don't deem to be of pure Aldmeri descendant. That's why they do the purges in Valenwood, and why the Dark Elves would be boned if the Thalmor won. I guess they see the Khajiit as too far removed, or just too inferior to bother with. They did what they could to get their land, because it was more territory under their belt.

 

Does Ulfric want to kill all non-Nords? No, but he wouldn't shed a tear if they all went extinct. Just look at the Dark Elves, or what almost happened to Adrianne at Warmaidens. If she hadn't been married to a Nord, they'd have shut her down.

 

I've done both Stormcloak and Imperial playthrough's, and I felt dirty having finished the Stormcloak line, because of Ulfric himself and how he saw every other race. There's also the fact that the High King he killed was a strong Talos worshipper and in-game evidence shows that he would have probably gone with secession himself if Ulfric had simply talked to him. But the Jarl of Windhelm wanted to be High King himself, as the only person Ulfric really cares about is Ulfric.

 

My personal issue with joining the Stormcloaks, as with a lot I suspect, is that it's not that you're going against the Empire for an independent Skyrim. It's that you're joining the Stormcloaks.

[RatcatcherOfKvatch]

The most devastating thing that can happen is that Skyrim win's its independence, because things like that are usually contagious, spreading to neighbors like Southern Hammerfel which are declared defectors by the emperor for not conceding to the White-Gold Concordant.

 

I tried to say that, but you said it better. As for whether Ulfric should be High King or not, he hates the Thalmor and has the support of the people, so he meets my requirements as far as I'm concerned.

I have big plans that all follow from the Winterhold quest line.

First is the need to keep both the Thalmor and Synod, and hence the Empire, as far away from the College -- and our new Elder Scroll -- as possible. Both groups have expressed interest in seizing College property; when they show up looking for the Eye what are the odds they'll leave without confiscating our Scroll? Not only do we have the Scroll but we know the secret to reading it without a Moth Priest. For that secret alone we are at risk (though the loss of our two foremost Dwemer experts almost certainly means bringing a new expert up to speed before we go transcribing any new Lexicons. If Neloth knew we'd done it before he'd almost certainly want to be a part of doing it again.)

Anyway we have two ridiculously valuable commodities, to wit the scroll and the theoretical ability to read it, which means our College needs protection, allies, political power in our corner, and that means we're going to have to give if we expect to receive. Ulfric Stormcloak is the only game in town, so we'd best make the most of it and prove our worth.

To that end Faralda, being of keen political sensibility, should become my "Acting Archmage", second to me mostly on paper as I'll be gone most of the time. Tolfdir can retain the title "Master Wizard" and be in charge of education, but the College military branch, The Cloaks, will have Faralda as its Captain, which will effectively put her in charge of the College. I can fire her if I don't like the job she's doing, otherwise I stay out of her way.

My talents are best utilized in the field as a warrior / diplomat. I am needed to implement the next stage of protecting the College, crushing the Thalmor, which requires even more political power, to wit the forging of the Talos Concordiat, a rival Alliance to the Thalmor and Empire. (The name mocks the White-Gold Concordat. Nice, huh?)

Obviously if I'm out building the Talos Concordiat I need a High King in Skyrim who owes me one to keep my College safe back home. I can't afford to be High King myself -- it's a waste of my time and talents -- but I know a candidate perfect for the job, and he already has it. "If it ain't broke ..."

 

 

Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are the same as the Thalmor. Think every other race is beneath them. He would make a poor High King.

 

The difference between the Thalmor and Stormcloaks is the difference between genocide on the one hand or prejudice on the other.

 

The choice is more or less analogous to the Germans versus the Americans during WWII. Is there any doubt the Americans, despite their problems with racial discrimination in that era (worse than Skyrim's Nords to be honest), were the good guys in that conflict? (I didn't say Axis and Allies because each of the Axis and Allied powers had their own situations it would be too complicated to sort out. Finland? There's another wall of text right there.)