Is Skyrim too politically correct?

[TheVampireDante]

 

 

and how different biologies may effect performance even if both genders train equally as hard.

 

Which is something I was aiming at - real world, yes - biological differences between genders does factor in.

 

TES - in this fictional universe there may not be those differences, at least not to such an extent that it would cause a difference between how either gender would take to a given task.

 

 

Leadership is another matter completely, some Societies are/were Matrilineal some Patrilineal and some relatively able to balance the power equally.

 

 

 

The highest majority of my Bandits are male, is very rare for me to come across a female Bandit, because how I see it Bandits are not going to play nice with women, any woman in fact would be in great danger in their company...

 

The notable exception to your statement in that second quote (which also touches on the first point) that comes to my mind at this moment is the Bandit leader at Mistwatch - Fjola.

 

Here's a woman that ran off, came back to her homeland and managed to not only survive amongst a bunch of bandits, but took control of them and made the group into a much more profiicient force.

 

Her exact dialogue:

 

"The fool's my husband. I'm Fjola - or I was, once. Don't you see? I left that old scab. Came home to Skyrim, and found this rabble of bandits. Didn't take much to prove myself and knock them into shape. Now every free blade from here to Windhelm wants to sign on for a piece."

 

I'd say she made the roster on Skyrim's strong women chart. As I doubt that rise to power came without a bit of bloodshed.

 

On the racial bigotry - that could have been more present, or at least more obviously present in game... there's a lot of it, but it's all low level stuff. Name calling, other verbal insults. There's no race motivated attacks or such. A few comments during a fight, like someone yelling "Orc filth" or similar doesn't really match up.

Have to admit though, hearing someone yell "I'll skin you alive" to a Khajiit or Argonian does seem like a fitting "race" taunt, but it only becomes one with those races. Now while we're on the beast races - someone could bring up the exclusion of Khajiit from the cities, and blame that on Nord/Stormcloak racism.

 

Then why does it apply to Imperial held cities as well? Yes, it's still a Nord in charge, but one on the Imperial side would surely have a differing view to the matter than a Stormcloak, unless there was an overall problem with the Khajiit that both sides still hold to. I'd hold their reputation as thieves being on the list of reasons somewhere (which in a way, is a racial stereotype).

[Arimikami]

It is my personal belief that women were mostly relegated to child rearing because of their general nature and not because men were trying to oppress them.

 

This is both right and wrong if you really stop to think about it and goes very far back into the earliest days of humans and propagation of the species.

 

Women were the ones that raised young because, for one thing, they were the ones that gave birth to them. If you look at other predators, it's not too rare for the female of the species to actually actively try to keep males away from their children for the simple reason that a male may kill the young so that it won't become a future potential threat to their dominance. Considering that humans usually only give birth to one at a time instead of entire litters like other animals do, it's not outside the bounds to reason to think that this instinct was even more pronounced among early women.

 

There's also gestation period to take into account. With it taking approximately nine months for a woman to give birth to another human, every woman that became pregnant would be unable to participate in hunting for food for an extended period of time. Not for the full nine months, obviously but, it doesn't take nine months for a human to starve to death and it's unlikely that early women would have shared the food that was meant for their children with another woman simply because she was unable to acquire her own nourishment.

 

At the same time, one man was able to impregnate multiple women with little to no consequence for him and could continue with his day to day activities. In short, men were the hunters because they were expendable and it originally had very little to do with concepts such as oppression as most humans were too busy trying to stay alive to even give such thoughts consideration. Due to the high mortality rate that comes with attempting to kill dangerous animals with only the most rudimentary of tools, only the most successful males were alive to help create the next generation of humans.

[RatcatcherOfKvatch]

The difference between a deep cheek laceration versus a mandibular fracture makes a differential in pain tolerance academic. A "glass jaw" is a huge liability in a fist fight -- or any other kind of fight if one punch can end it. Women who could fight often "looked like men" -- they were heavy-set, had heavy facial features, and pretty much looked like they could win a bar fight. There are some laws of physics having to do with force, mass, acceleration, and time for which form must follow function. For a woman to be able to take a punch she has to be built a certain way. Short of ducking the best defense against mandibular fractures is a thick jaw.

 

As for why there are so many more delicate women than men, the root cause of all biological differences is evolution. Historically the women who were successful at having children who would survive to have children excelled at things other than being able to take a punch. Whether or not evolution was "fair" or "politically correct" it happened.

 

In a game you can make everyone equal and still make women look like supermodels. In the real world they have to look their part. George RR Martin gave us the believably attractive Brienne, a character in whom he manages to balance the mythology of delicate-boned equality with the structurally-reinforced reality of what it would really take. She can be attractive, but she cannot in any way be delicate.

 

Magic healing, though, which every fantasy world has, throws all the other gender roles out the window. Without infant mortality the compromise for time forced by the overlap of fertility and productivity in young adulthood is mitigated.

 

Furthermore if "powerful wizards" (which every fantasy world has) can extend their lives why couldn't women either in or with an in to this elite group either restore as needed or preserve indefinitely their own fertility? No woman you talk to ever seems to worry about it, none of the women at the College look older than 30, and you know Mirabelle is way older than that. If you can live, say, 400 years and restore your fertility at the century mark with the wave of a wand if you have the talent the world isn't so much divided into haves and have-nots by sex but by this ability. (Hags seem to need to age as part of their evolution into hagravens, but the less said about them the better.)

 

The "disrespected" Restoration School would, in any sane universe, be quite the opposite, and poor Colette Marance would be constantly hounded by high-society types looking for fertility treatments, the Fountain of Youth, or maybe just specialized medical care beyond the skill of the Priests of the Divines. But Colette got the memo: magical life-extension isn't for the "little people". The true elite is a wizards only club, right? And with so few patients Colette is left to complain about lack of respect ... so if you want to look for inequality in your fantasy world I think I'd know where to start.

[spookycandy]

I jumped in thinking this was going to be an interesting discussion on the politics of Skyrim. Instead I see people talking about how it's unrealistic that a woman would do some of the jobs they are doing in Skyrim.

 

What you might not know about history is that women have a long history of not only cooking the meals and making the clothes but fighting in battle, working in fields, and yes, blacksmithing (though usually they did other crafts)¹. They often did farm work, which is not easy work and, as many would argue "a man's job." In Skyrim I was happy to see some empowered women doing complex jobs. It did not feel overkill. As others mentioned in the thread, the women who are in that line of work are in it with their husbands (this was also extremely common back in the times). This page is old, but quite informative on what trades women participated in back in those days; among the books it references is Medieval Artisans which I had the privilege of reading when I was still in college (college libraries are awesome). It's a great book. Definitely do more research on it. If anything, it's refreshing to have a game from this era get things right!

 

¹Source: Women and Gender in Medieval Europe: An Encyclopedia

[EnaiSiaion]

 

The "disrespected" Restoration School would, in any sane universe, be quite the opposite, and poor Colette Marance would be constantly hounded by high-society types looking for fertility treatments, the Fountain of Youth, or maybe just specialized medical care beyond the skill of the Priests of the Divines. But Colette got the memo: magical life-extension isn't for the "little people". The true elite is a wizards only club, right? And with so few patients Colette is left to complain about lack of respect ... so if you want to look for inequality in your fantasy world I think I'd know where to start.

 

I thought this was a bit of accidental fourth wall breaking. Restoration is disrespected by the player because it doesn't shoot fireballs, so the writers assumed their NPCs would share this feeling.

[AnimeOtaku102]

Think about America's history, despite traditional views of how women should behave most of that went out the window during the World Wars, when conscription depleted enough of the male workforce that factories saw an explosion of women laborers. They were major, if not defining, moments in the road toward gender equality.

 

Skyrim is in a fairly similar situation first with the Great War and now a civil war; able men are being conscripted left and right, and women are simply filling the roles that the remaining men cannot. Considering how long it's been the most vocal complaints against the breaking down of gender roles would have died out long before the start of the game, hence why we don't see much of it.

[RatcatcherOfKvatch]

Anyone else think Tolfdir looks old because he likes it?

 

@ES:

Colette's in the least-believable situation of anyone in Skyrim. Heh, and if you're right I think they maybe underestimated players as well: take away Restoration and we'd suddenly respect it a heck of a lot more.

 

@spookycandy:

Was your chauvinism-scolding directed at me?

[KanesGhost]

 

 

 

 

 

and how different biologies may effect performance even if both genders train equally as hard.

 

Which is something I was aiming at - real world, yes - biological differences between genders does factor in.

 

TES - in this fictional universe there may not be those differences, at least not to such an extent that it would cause a difference between how either gender would take to a given task.

 

 

Leadership is another matter completely, some Societies are/were Matrilineal some Patrilineal and some relatively able to balance the power equally.

 

 

 

The highest majority of my Bandits are male, is very rare for me to come across a female Bandit, because how I see it Bandits are not going to play nice with women, any woman in fact would be in great danger in their company...

 

The notable exception to your statement in that second quote (which also touches on the first point) that comes to my mind at this moment is the Bandit leader at Mistwatch - Fjola.

 

Here's a woman that ran off, came back to her homeland and managed to not only survive amongst a bunch of bandits, but took control of them and made the group into a much more profiicient force.

 

Her exact dialogue:

 

"The fool's my husband. I'm Fjola - or I was, once. Don't you see? I left that old scab. Came home to Skyrim, and found this rabble of bandits. Didn't take much to prove myself and knock them into shape. Now every free blade from here to Windhelm wants to sign on for a piece."

 

I'd say she made the roster on Skyrim's strong women chart. As I doubt that rise to power came without a bit of bloodshed.

 

On the racial bigotry - that could have been more present, or at least more obviously present in game... there's a lot of it, but it's all low level stuff. Name calling, other verbal insults. There's no race motivated attacks or such. A few comments during a fight, like someone yelling "Orc filth" or similar doesn't really match up.

Have to admit though, hearing someone yell "I'll skin you alive" to a Khajiit or Argonian does seem like a fitting "race" taunt, but it only becomes one with those races. Now while we're on the beast races - someone could bring up the exclusion of Khajiit from the cities, and blame that on Nord/Stormcloak racism.

 

Then why does it apply to Imperial held cities as well? Yes, it's still a Nord in charge, but one on the Imperial side would surely have a differing view to the matter than a Stormcloak, unless there was an overall problem with the Khajiit that both sides still hold to. I'd hold their reputation as thieves being on the list of reasons somewhere (which in a way, is a racial stereotype).

 

 

 

 

Thank you for bringing up Fjola, I had forgotten about her...yes there will always be exceptions to a rule and Fjola is one of them, realistically that would had to have been a heck of a battle for her to achieve all she did...not unheard of, just exceedingly rare.

 

As for the Racial/Species Bigotry, when I first played Skyrim I was expecting much more in the way of Racial/Species Bigotry, was looking forward to playing through the various Races and Species to experience the differences, I was disappointed....I would have liked to have seen a greater impact on the choice we make of our PC. The Khajiit I have wondered the exact same thing about Imperial held Cities, but I would honestly account that more so to Bethesda stopping short than Khajiit reputation, though possibly for RP reasons the stereotype would work best in answering those questions in game play.

[lockeandkey]

It's a bit of a necro (sorry, kind of), but it's a fun topic, and I've been thinking about the same sort of thing.

 

For capability, I think it's pretty well established that for most forms of manual labor the men and women of both Skyrim and real world history are considered to be equals, if for no other reason than necessity. Hard work is, well, hard, and any available hand is a welcome one. And becoming skilled at any type of labor makes you more capable at it. Combat may be a different story, since I do sometimes have a hard time watching the women swing around a warhammer without asking "How are you even doing that? Your arms are tiny!" The "magic" argument, that augmenting oneself to artificially create physical equality, is a bit shady since most folks in TES lore don't seem too be particularly adept at magic, but the inherently magical nature of pretty much ALL races does make it seem a bit more viable.

 

Either way, I think it may be an issue of gameplay vs. lore. I mean, it was pointed out that there are only a handful of female blacksmiths already. Adding to that:

 

-There are fewer females in leadership positions, and only a handful acting as higher ups in factions. 6 possible female Jarls compared to 10 possible males, I think. (Actually checking this made me realize it's much closer than I would have thought, though)

 

-11 male (Hold) housecarls to only 4 females, which supports a division among the warrior class. Admittedly, the follower housecarls are evenly split.

 

-In the same vein, there are 3 female Companions to 7 males. All of the factions are male-heavy, if I'm remembering correctly, and only ONE is headed up by a female.

 

-The shopkeeps specializing in alchemy tend to be female in my experience, as well as the proprietor of a particularly obnoxious clothing store, though I admit that's only a single instance and not really a statistic. I see alchemy as probably being considered more feminine, but that's entirely subjective. It's definitely a lighter labor, though.

 

-The (often repeated) insistance that I "Don't like the sight of a strong Nord woman" would be indicative that there IS either a stigma against female strength or at least an expectation against it.

 

-Maven Blackbriar, one of the most recognizable women in the game, and one of the most (politically) powerful people in Skyrim, is portrayed as dodgy as hell and conniving, though I won't say there aren't men treated in much the same way.

 

-Jarl Elisif on the other hand, can very easily seem much too weak to be an effectual ruler. Where Maven is almost a caricature of feminine cunning, Elisif comes off strictly as the Proper Princess. Both extremes are in their own way negative, if we're discussing this from a "PC" perspective.

 

Aaaaand art style. This is weirdly the biggest problem AND the greatest point of equality, as how the developers chose to portray the world shows how they meant for it to be perceived. Thankfully for everyone, the vanilla game isn't a ridiculous misadventure in chainmail bikinis, and I'm very happy with the grime and grit of the world. There are a few armors that are more suggestive on female characters, though. But my biggest argument here is the WILDLY different effects that the weight slider has, depending on gender. Men get more badass and muscular, while women get bigger in only very specific places. On the other side of the coin, though, is the option to make truly fearsome looking characters of either gender. Scars, facepaint, blah blah, it's all there for everybody. Unfortunately, though, some developers seem to have forgotten this when making characters, as scarred or painted women seem much, MUCH rarer than men.

 

All in all, if you take the lore along with how the game is presented, I think the gender roles are pretty realisitic, with warrior women present and explained, but still as an exception rather than the rule. If you only look at the world that the devs actually built (ESPECIALLY the randomly generated bandits and evil mages and whatnot, where gender is much more even), then it can seem a lot more airquotes-PC.

 

Sidenote: Wasn't Brienne of Tarth supposed to be ugly? I mean, not just 'not conventionally attractive' but legitimately UNattractive? Brienne the Beauty was supposed to be a mocking name. Which I think makes her character way more interesting.

Edited November 19, 2013 by lockeandkey

[CookieDynamics]

It's a bit of a necro (sorry, kind of), but it's a fun topic, and I've been thinking about the same sort of thing.

 

(...)

 

All in all, if you take the lore along with how the game is presented, I think the gender roles are pretty realisitic, with warrior women present and explained, but still as an exception rather than the rule. If you only look at the world that the devs actually built (ESPECIALLY the randomly generated bandits and evil mages and whatnot, where gender is much more even), then it can seem a lot more airquotes-PC.

 

 

Nice reading, and you made good points.