Is Skyrim too politically correct?

[calfurius]

@ Oubliette

 

First off, who in the hell is going to mess with your character? You're the freaking Dragonborn. Even if they didn't know that, you're more then likely walking around heavily armored or walking in mage robes, meaning you're a wizard who could melt their faces with a flick of your wrists. Most racists wouldn't be stupid enough to antagonize you (Rolff Stone-Fist is an exception, even then, he just wants to fist fight you to work out some anger. He'll be your friend after you kick his ass).

 

 

Most People in Skyrim aren't a bunch blatant crazy racists. Nord society may be intolerant, but their are NO signs that the society is so heavily racist that the Nord population is going out of it's way to lynch other races. Their may be a drunken brawl here or there, they may face discrimination when it comes to living standards and economic opportunities, but in general the racism of Nords in Skyrim boils down to "if you stay away from me, i'll stay away from you".

 

As the Player Character you are given special exceptions. That's because making is so that picking a certain race has certain NPCs refusing to trade with you might be immersive, after awhile it gets annoying, punishes you for picking a race like, and also can be even MORE unimpressive because it'll have a Dark Elf questioning "why is it these Nords hate me so much when i'm the Dragonborn, a living legend of Nordic Culture?" At that point their hatred and racist attitudes towards you just becomes stupid and silly instead of immersive.

 

 

Also why in the HELL would a merchant not trade with you because of your race? Ignoring that no merchant in the game is that insanely racist, an Argonian's gold is still the same gold as a Nord's. You could argue they might charge a slightly higher price to the Argonian, but they won't refuse a customer during the middle of a war, where taxes are high and the cost of food is going up.

 

Could Skyrim had people react more to your race? eh, maybe. But you have to remember that the ELVEN races are the most blatantly racist. Human races generally have a low opinion of other races, but they aren't ACTIVE racists, their more of the "better keep an eye on that Khajiit in the corner". Elves, such as the Dunmer and Atlmer are more of the "I need some labor to be done, I guess I better get some enslaved Argonians to do it for me."

Edited November 22, 2013 by calfurius

[TheVampireDante]

@ Oubliette

 

First off, who in the hell is going to mess with your character? You're the freaking Dragonborn.

 

In general?

 

1. Bandits

2. Thalmor

3. Guards - if you do something to get their attention.

4. Rogue mages

5. Hired thugs

6. Opposing Civil War faction

7. Ghosts

8. Vampires (or Dawnguard)

 

Or, as the topic is about - Racists, just anyone else that doesn't give a damn who or what you are - Dragonborn or not - to the mind of a racist your still something to hate. You can't apply logic and rational thinking to a racist. It just doesn't work.

 

Pretty sure if you could declare that you were the only thing holding reality together in any form - there would still be some idiot willing to try stabbing you in the neck to prove "his kind" are better than "your kind" or would go around claiming that you stole your fabled Dovahkiin given abilities from a Nord somehow...

[chanchan05]

Imagine if they played racisim as it should be. As of now, the dragonborn is the only Khajiit that can enter holds. LOL.

[Zzimith]

When designing fantasy like games, novels and movies being historically correct in some medieval context is probably less relevant. There are tons and tons of examples of Skyrim not being historically correct in an enormous amount of instances. Most people aren't bothered by this a lot since most people have a very vague sense and knowledge how an actual western medieval society looked like. Not a lot of people are bothered by every house having glass windows, for instance. Or why there is a strange profession called "adventurer" who apparently go around in "dungeons" looking for gold lying around. Let's face it, the whole foundation of the game is based on elements not historically correct!

 

When it comes to what roles, ideals and values of actual medieval times where life was in many ways radically different than a modern western society, historical accuracy becomes even less relevant. And I'm not even started on magic and dragons :smile: So historically correctness is, perhaps, not the most pressing topic when it comes to designing a fantasy setting.

 

With this in mind, how do we approach gender in a fantasy game? My own firm belief to toss most of the historical accuracy on gender out the window (like the game does with most other similar things). Why? Well if you want be historically correct when it comes to gender, the females in the game wouldn't have a lot of fun (not the males either, I suspect) in any modern perspective. And any female player character would be viewed as an atrocity if allowed at all. This wouldn't sell the game very well and be a bit of an affront to many people, I believe, and make the game less entertaining for both a growing female gaming community as well as a many male gamers.

 

I think the game being historically correct or not is a lot less relevant than what moral, political or religious ideas we carry with us when we play a game and how we react to elements within it.

 

The roles of men and women in modern society are changing and some people are offended or feel threatened by it. When a somewhat progressive portraying of gender appears in games or other media, the feelings are the same and it’s perceived as “PC” or whatever. I’m not sure what that really mean. I interprete it as an implication Bethesda can’t possibly want to promote this view of women for real and the reason for how men and women are presented in Skyrim must be the cause of a feminist conspiracy of some sort or another. Personally, I rather doubt that.

 

So rather than asking yourself what's historically correct, ask yourself what's fun and cool in a game. I doubt a historically correct medieval game would be hilarious to play, in terms of gender and numerous other aspects.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Zzimith

[cfguy]

@ calfurius
Definitely true :). Those things are heavy. But yeah, the game has a specific setting which I don't mind. I guess it's more just physics that bother me - choose the setting, characters, etc, you'd like, but when an arrow flies like a bullet, a tiny woman can swing a massive greatsword with no hinderance, etc, it kind of ruins the immersion in a way. I never expect it to be totally realistic, but realism where appropriate adds to the illusion of immersion.

 

@ Zzimith

True, but I think some of those points can be thought of as moot. Problem is that there's not standard for "realistic enough", or "accurate". I personally don't care if the world is different (i.e. the massive moon), etc, but some incorporation of physics and history can help with the feel of the game. People having glass in their windows doesn't bother me as it can be argued given the world and setting. I agree that it's not about historical accuracy, but the inclusion of nordic culture is what drew me to the game. Everyone has their preferences I suppose - I could personally do without the over-done fantasy bows and swords (but the more you know about something, the easier it is to find faults) that would really only be a hindrance in real life.

Obviously these are not actual Scandinavians, but I would disagree with what you said regarding women - in some Europeans medieval societies, true, but again, in Norse history, women had a bigger role to play than in others, and played a bigger role in battle. More the exception than the rule, but it certainly wasn't looked at as an atrocity, and they had a large amount of influence in the home, in society, and as landowners.

[cfguy]

And +1 about swords too. It's definitely well done in being a game, but if I had a greatsword I wouldn't be swinging it like a baseball bat.

[calfurius]

Blegh, Skyrim is a fantasy world. Arguing what gender roles should be is moot, because it's an entirely different culture. Skyrim may be heavily based on Scandinavian culture, but that doesn't mean it IS Scandinavian culture. Hell the Draugr barrows are an example of this. The Draugr Barrows are more Egyptian if anything.

 

When it comes to race? Well you could always chock it up to Betheseda just not wanting to go through all the effort of coding all these Dynamic racial tensions while at the same time trying to make it so that game is enjoyable to play. I also like to think that Khajiit are allowed into the cities, just not the Khajiit CARAVANS. Khajiit traveler just looking for a place to stay for the night is okay, but an entire caravan wanting to hook up a store and sell some of their "foreign" goods? Not so much. It could be reasoned that they could be smuggling illegal substances (which ironically they are) or they could be acting as fences for thieves in the cities (which once again, they are.)

 

So yeah a single Khajiit entering the city is okay. A caravan has to stay outside.

[Riprock]

When I was playing pen and paper Dungeons and Dragons and AD&D, this was also a topic discussed in magazines like 'Dragon' and 'White Dwarf'. There were many column inches dedicated to why a woman's body had a lower center of gravity and thus she would have an advantage when jousting against a man, etc, and just as many rebuttals that would cite the man's inherently higher mass etc.

 

The bottom line is that it's a fantasy game. the 'fantasy' aspect forgives- and rationalizes an explanation for- every one of these issues.

 

These are not "men and women" in TES. They are Bretons, Imperials, Nords, Mer, etc. The simplest scenario is that since the TES universe is not our own, then yes, a woman can be a very effective blacksmith or warrior.

 

Then too from a consumerist standpoint, it makes no sense to alienate one half of your potential customers by making women menial drudges that make babies and dinner.

[cfguy]

Definitely agree. My main point was that concepts of women only being in the house cooking and cleaning and having no place in warfare is possibly true in medieval England, but not at all so in historical Scandinavia. Not saying the game reflects it entirely properly, just that female warriors aren't purely a fantasy concept.

[DameWingate]

As a woman, gender political correctness in gaming has always irked me as well to a certain extent. Depending on what class I take up determines the sex of my character. But since it is pure fantasy, and really cannot mirror reality by the real life standards of today, I think of such matters as no real issue or turn off. I believe allowing political correctness in today’s standards outside of gaming regarding the role of women has emasculated men to a very appalling state. I believe this game avoids such things rather well and the men are still on top of their game throughout. The role of “bad a**” chick has been around for decades and it’s an overused tiresome stereotype. I do feel that this game has too many “tough” gals who could be taken down a notch.