Fire Cryo damage hardcoded?

[Qrsr]

Im playing around with fire cryo and other elemental damage resistance, based on perks, condition, etc. i managed to disable any FX on PC no freeze nor burn, however im not able to disable cryolator or flamer burst damage?

 

i switched energy damage with fire/cryo but nothing, i applied appropiate resistance when perk/armor/keyword.

 

No matter what i do the damage still aplies to PC - its seriously weird - it feels there is something hardcoded going on.

[StormWolf01]

Heyas Qrsr!

 

Oh, you've got a fun project going on here! Very interesting!

 

My first two thoughts....

You may missed an attachment. For weapons, some of the attachments (Listed in Object Modification) also contain damage type. I was just looking through the Flamer attachments, and the Plasma Tank, also has damage type listed... as an example. There ARE other attachments also listing it as energy damage, tho this is the one that I had open, in Xedit.

Those would also be needed to be updated.

And that's not gonna be fun. :sad: While I was looking for files like that, at least with the flamer, some of it's parts are mixed in, under generic names :sad:

 

My second thought... it's possible the game may not be putting in the changes to the weapon, because of savegame data. Are you using a weapon that is already included in your savegame that you're using for the testing? Or are you using one that you're spawning/creating after loading the save?

 

If the former, try this: Take said weapon to the workbench, remove all the modifications to it, so that you only have it as a base weapon.

Hard save.

Load up from that new hard save, and then upgrade the weapon and test.

[StormWolf01]

Ok Third thought.

I just remembered this.

Elemental damage resistance was never implemented into the game.

It's there. In the files. You can attach it to armor/clothing/cheat rings/accessories/etc.

But the devs never made it work.

The only functioning resistances are:

Normal, Energy, Radiation, (and about 80% positive on this last one) Poison.

 

I dunno if this is relevant to the project that you're working on right now. But I definitely thought that it was worth mentioning. Cuz they may not have made those damage types work, either.

[Qrsr]

I just remembered this.

Elemental damage resistance was never implemented into the game.

It's there. In the files. You can attach it to armor/clothing/cheat rings/accessories/etc.

But the devs never made it work.

The only functioning resistances are:

Normal, Energy, Radiation, (and about 80% positive on this last one) Poison.

 

I dunno if this is relevant to the project that you're working on right now. But I definitely thought that it was worth mentioning. Cuz they may not have made those damage types work, either.

 

You know, it must be Elemental damage resistance was never implemented into the game. This would explain why Flamer and Cryolator dont use frost or fire damage instead both use energy damage. So the testing is very problematic ingame for some reason, the point about hard saves may play a role like you said in your first posting, i will check all of this later its very interesting.

 

For now i downloaded all the mods i could find, and compared them with my project. Some use conditions directly in the magic effect, some use conditions on the enchantment e.g. a power armor frame and some crate a new spell and attach it to a perk... oh and some use perks with conditions...

 

I think creating immunities and attach those immunities to the magic effects is the least problematic solution. Then add those immunites to whatever you like. This is used by the default game e.g. for poison and radiation damage.

 

I will remove fire and cryo damage from the records attached to the flamer and cryolator since i changed these and add energy damage back in and see how it works out. Im pretty sure its like you said and energy damage will be blocked perfectly fine, but well maybe flamer/cryolator use a scripted damage apply system. I think it was the cryolator which applies paper damage and +10 which is tied to the scrip if i remember (vaguely) right.

 

You know eventhough elemental damage never was added correctly, the immunities i setup should still work? I mean i added condition based on damage type to all the magic effect data i could find, and then added the immunity to e.g. a power armor frame or power armor part or powre armor keyword. It works for radiation damage perfectly fine but cryo and fire ... i dunno its so weird.

[Blinxys]

If you could wire up an elemental damage and resistance framework that could be big. :woot:

But I have to take issue since "flamer does fire damage" in my setup and it hurts like a boss, :devil: even stays with ya a few secs. :ohmy:

 

I was guessing it's a really basic math thing, like a damage type filter of sorts.

IF DTfire

AND DTresist Fire < DTfire/rate

dmg = dttype - dtresist

 

(erm, that probably garbage, but you get the picture).

Just meaning it's handled internally without too much fuss or figuring.

 

Where the failing in the system is that resistances haven't been added to clothes/armor hardly at all.

Seems any other fix could muck up the already murky waters there. :sick:

 

You may be right it may need more, testing is surely in order,

I've just been (literally, literally) filling in the blanks based on the above theory,

(Mostly adding modest radiation resistance based on coverage like sunscreen).

But have not done any elemental exclusive controlled testing as of yet.

 

Have to see which armor I gave what resists, and try 'em out systematically.

[Qrsr]

Lets sum up the facts:

 

- Flamer + Cryolator are set to energy damage by default

- Setting Flamer + Cryolator to Fire/Frost is probably doomed to hardcoded "features"

- No armor protects fully against these types

- In order to gain full protection one creates an immunity record

 

Before i start these two settings might be interesting in the future ... while xxx stands for Fire/Frost etc.

fxxxMinDamageReduction 0.050000 to 0
fxxxMaxDamageReduction 0.990000 to 1

I added/tied (except Acid, hardcoded) the following actor values:

DamageResist
PoisonResist
FireResist
ElectricResist
FrostResist
RadResistExposure
EnergyResist

to magic effect / perk immunity records similar to what was available by default. So completed the default Fo4 immunities. Once the immunities were set these were added to all the specific magic effects, and any magic effect which does damage to the player in a specific form of course was set to the specific damage type e.g:

DamageTypeRadiation [KYWD:0004B25C]
DamageTypeFire [KYWD:0004A0C8]
DamageTypeCyro [KYWD:0004A0C9]

and so on and so forth... and now the fun part starts...

 

There is well there are two types of immunity/resistance record for radiation. One for Hazard Suit and one for power armor. Interestingly the power armor is not complete or set the way it should be its there but not used so to speak. Whatever, for now i added the Hazard Suit record to the power armor its set to decrease radiation exposure to 0.02 or just to 98%, i think thats interesting and works perfectly since PC gains like 0.02 % radiation damage so some tick of the geiger counter still apply.

 

Copy/paste the default records and setting them up to match fire/cryo etc is not problem at all. Applying these to the magic effects etc not at all either, similar to the preset of hazard suit etc. Now if you set, lets start with cryo/frost damage:

CryoFreezeEffect01
CryoFreezeEffect02
CryoFreezeEffect03
CritCryoEffect
CritCryoFreezeEffect
CryoSlow
CryoFreezeEffectRemover

All of these except CrypFreezeEffectRemover gained

DamageTypeCyro [KYWD:0004A0C9]

EnergyResist "Energy Resistance" [AVIF:000002EB] was set to FrostResist "Cold Resistance" [AVIF:000002E7]

and equal to 0, has Perk, on Subject for

ImmuneToFrost "(Cryo) Immunity: Cryo" [PERK:xx008EFF]

Now i would assume the PC + CryoImmunity perk would be immune to Cryo damage, even if ActorValues are 0 for Cryo damage, right? No. For some reason PC still is damaged and still will become frozen. So my guess (since icant test it for now) is its because i changed "Energy Resistance" to "Cold Resistance", which technically should be a problem,, since the immunites should apply so or so right? There are even keywords to block the freeze state (which also applies):

CriticalCryoNoFreeze [KYWD:00249D7A]

Now even if PC doesnt have any cryo resist value at all by default the immunity perk should cover that, right? Its weird since it does. If i setup the values to some specific value lets say 100 cryo resist freeze doesnt apply anymore, but lower it does no matter the keyword ???

 

Maybe the keyword is "Crit" or "Critical" since critical damage applies even if resistance is present? I read that critical damage is always dealt to the target no matter its resistance but i might be wrong, and since fire and cryo damage is technically critical damage well maybe ... Whatever its very weird since PC still is not resitant/immune. I will do some further testing since i assume either i messed up something or its a bit more complex than i thought.

 

EDIT: After days of playing around, lol, i finally managed to fix the problem. I will add the fixed version later cheers,

Edited December 24, 2022 by Qrsr

[Blinxys]

Wait, isn't CryoFreezeEffectRemover and CriticalCryoNoFreeze the only ones really required to be truly immune? :unsure:

Maybe rethinking how this is applied since it is being interpreted so far as physical damage (a numeric amount), when it's the FX that are the hurt given (i.e. frozen).

I Think Beth used energy as anything would work for an amount, just bypassing ballistic physical resistance/limitations (DTcryo works too but had no resist mechanics at time of release).

"...ActorValues are 0 for Cryo damage..."

Ok, so you should be able to apply additive cryo damage and check values.

And you're saying that it's doing physical damage, and freezes subject instead?

Does that do any cryo damage, or anything at all?

I'm thinking something got missed/lost in translation.

Dot your "T's" and cross your eyes. :wacko:

"...values to some specific value lets say 100 cryo resist freeze doesnt apply anymore, but lower it does no matter the keyword ???"...

Wondering if this isn't bool function, what if it's just 1 (not 100)?

Or, less likely there is a OTT threshold, i.e. incoming damage/rate.

At what point/level does it start working?

We did a serious hunt on fire stuff here not long ago, and found there are multiple forms of fire damage, meaning check it forward and back as StormWolf pointed out with addons.

You could be somewhat right about crit damage bypassing a lot, in which case I think you'd need to nerf the weapon/damage/attack accordingly- if true.

As I've done away with many crit damages to player and it +90% comes from special attacks by non-humans, and and about 97% critdamage125% perk for humans.

Explanation: it's not fair or realistic, but... getting 1 hit and blown out of your socks and bent over backwards is not very immersive to me either IMHO.

Where the most interesting stories come from how one survived, (not how they themselves died, which is technically never told properly). :no:

But again, critical damage it is expressed as physical damage AFAICT.

So I'm keenly interested in what you are doing because I'm interested in applying useful finding to weather.

In that way I was thinking you are focused on the pc, when what I would like to see is armor resist factors.

The difference is in the subtlties. I.e. Knit Hat, Clothes, have resist DTcold 4 each, and set ambient magic effect by weather type, say DTcryo 3, player/NPCs with DTcryoResist a > DTcryoWeather b whereby enough protection would not freeze/incur MGEF. (Sort of like radiation without the ticking). But maybe mirelurks and deathclaws might slow down, a lot.

I'm leaning toward using the base game function/names as conveyors, since they are either not being used, or by the same token are consistently distributed (in place) already (And doing nothing).

Aside: the Geiger Counter doesn't actually work properly (since it is reporting Your (Personal) Rad Levels), and should instead always be reporting Ambient Atmospheric Radiation instead (its how the meters work, unless it's Zetan Technology (Rumor has it they have a probe for that)... :ermm:

[Qrsr]

 

Wait, isn't CryoFreezeEffectRemover and CriticalCryoNoFreeze the only ones really required to be truly immune? :unsure:

 

 

I wouldnt say so, you have that block freeze keyword which is applied to most protected NPCs so they cant be frozen. CryoFreezeEffectRemover applies after like 10s or somethings exactly the time amount it takes for a critical freeze (duration 10).

 

"...ActorValues are 0 for Cryo damage..."

Ok, so you should be able to apply additive cryo damage and check values.And you're saying that it's doing physical damage, and freezes subject instead?Does that do any cryo damage, or anything at all?

 

I managed to make PC totally immune now, simply by using a spell which somehow works, i also encountered some scripts which found their way into the Data folder which i deleted and hopefully it wasnt triggered by scripts to not apply immunity. for now all works perfectly fine so forget about it.

 

what i can tell you is this, you dont need ANY actorvalue such as dtcryo or something, if PC/NPC is immune it doesnt matter how high.

 

"...values to some specific value lets say 100 cryo resist freeze doesnt apply anymore, but lower it does no matter the keyword ???"...

Or, less likely there is a OTT threshold, i.e. incoming damage/rate.

 

 

There must be a treshhold but i dont have the time for research now it would be curious though, i know for physical damage the treshhold is different to enregy damage. and the treshhold kicks in by absurd amount of physical protection like 1000000 hardly possible ingame, more likely, with scripts. BUT for cryo damage its far from such values, but again i dont know how much, for now.

You could be somewhat right about crit damage bypassing a lot, in which case I think you'd need to nerf the weapon/damage/attack accordingly- if true.

 

 

Yes it is, the question is for elemental damage, if yes or no. BUT again once immunity applies it doesnt matter here too, which i finally got triggered. Immunities block any critical damage.

 

Explanation: it's not fair or realistic, but... getting 1 hit and blown out of your socks and bent over backwards is not very immersive to me either IMHO.

 

 

yes thats very cool, i like that feature too, remember fallout tactics? you could knock out the NPCs... its such a nice fallout game tbh.

 

So I'm keenly interested in what you are doing because I'm interested in applying useful finding to weather.

 

From my current research i can tell you this, forget about the DTcold values and focus on spells and/or perks (hidden). Perfect example is the hazmat suit perk, simply copy the core idea and apply it to the item of choice. it works wonders. and it really works. you can perfectly set based on % how much damage from whatever source PC should face.

 

 

Aside: the Geiger Counter doesn't actually work properly (since it is reporting Your (Personal) Rad Levels), and should instead always be reporting Ambient Atmospheric Radiation instead (its how the meters work, unless it's Zetan Technology (Rumor has it they have a probe for that)... :ermm:

 

:D thats interesting maybe one can trick that algorithm too?

[Blinxys]

Awesome, glad you got it worked out, going to have to recalculate my trajectory based on your findings!

BTW: Have you messed with Knockout Framework? Loved it to death, keep trying it out, but gets buggered by too many other mods. :verymad:

[Qrsr]

Also interesting is the fact, if you have 100% immunity against incoming damage NPCs run away :D

Edited December 25, 2022 by Qrsr