Number of Mods I Should Have in Game

[Shadeybladey]

Fistandilius, you are just not going to win this "argument", nor get any converts. You might as well argue that the world is flat.

 

But I do have one question. If you are such a fan and supporter of Steam Workshop, why are you even here, posting in this thread?

 

Is that the sound of Billy Goats Gruff I hear clip-clip-clopping over your bridge?

 

Not by the hair of MY chinny-chin-chin.

 

So he huffs, and he puffs....

 

~.~

[Fistandilius]

Fistandilius, you are just not going to win this "argument", nor get any converts. You might as well argue that the world is flat.

 

But I do have one question. If you are such a fan and supporter of Steam Workshop, why are you even here, posting in this thread?

 

Is that the sound of Billy Goats Gruff I hear clip-clip-clopping over your bridge?

 

Not by the hair of MY chinny-chin-chin.

 

So he huffs, and he puffs....

 

~.~

 

I didn't say I was a fan, and I didn't know we were having an argument. I don't know why the two of you are taking anything personally. I asked a question out of idle curiosity why you twice made a statement against steam without giving a reason. And the other guy was quite clearly bias against Steam to begin with and was listing a bunch of half truths and opinions.

 

I don't personally have a problem with Steam and I see no reason to boycott it. I use very few mods, but the ones I do use are from both Steam and Nexus. I know how steam works, so if anything goes wrong with it, it's my fault for not checking my load order, unchecking the mod, or unsubscribing.

 

You can't blame a piece of code for not working the way you want it to. Some mods are steam only.

 

Yeah, it's great that I can download a mod from Nexus, put it exactly where I want it, and install it later when I'm ready to, but it doesn't work that way and some mods aren't on nexus.

 

If it bothers you that much I'll drop it. I pretty much said everything there is to say anyways.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Fistandilius

[Shadeybladey]

I'm not taking it personally at all, but anyone who has had any experience with Steam and the Workshop would know immediately why using mods from there is more problematic than using mods from elsewhere. But they would never defend the Workshop unless they had some grudge against The Nexus, BOSS or SKSE.

 

There have been countless threads in every discussion group web site asking for help with crashes etc, and when the poor kids have posted their load order, it's clear that they have got them all from the Workshop and they are being loaded in the order they subscribed to them. That is because they have been sucked into thinking the Workshop is some sort of mod manager, because that is how it presents itself. In the UK, it could be a breach of the Trades Descriptions Act.

 

You might think that I certainly have a grudge against the Workhop and Steam - I don't. Except that it is a great, big, steaming bowl of the stinking brown and smelly.

And that tiny little box they have for changing load order under DATA in the splash screen is laughable. It takes absolutely ages, whereas if you know where the files are kept in C:\Users\UserName\AppData\Local\Skyrim, you can sort them yourself manually.

 

Or let BOSS do it and then tweak where it gets things wrong.

 

~.~

[Fistandilius]

I'm not taking it personally at all, but anyone who has had any experience with Steam and the Workshop would know immediately why using mods from there is more problematic than using mods from elsewhere. But they would never defend the Workshop unless they had some grudge against The Nexus, BOSS or SKSE.

 

And this is why you think I'm a troll. Because you don't see that what you're saying is an opinion. You can't use an absolute like "never" and expect to be right all the time. I'm telling you my mods are about 50/50 nexus and steam and I'm telling you I don't find them problematic. I know exactly what steps Steam takes, so if it does something I don't want it to, it was my fault for not doing something about it.

 

Now if you don't like the way Steam does things, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with the majority of people not liking how Steam does things. That doesn't make Steam bad or wrong. Maybe it makes NMM better. But that's still no reason to boycott Steam mods.

 

And the only way for new users to learn about steam mods is to tell them how it works. So if we just make an agreement to just not talk about Steam, who are we really helping? Steam isn't going anywhere, it's here to stay. It would take an awful lot to bankrupt steam, and there are new mods loaded every day, so it would take an awful lot to get them to stop hosting mods.

 

So we might as well learn how it works and use it.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Fistandilius

[HeyYou]

You actually have a pretty enlightened attitude about the whole steam workshop thing, but then, you are also an experienced mod user. The problem we run into is the folks that AREN'T, and just 'assume' that the SW will 'take care of' the little quirks involved in modding a complex game. Usually, the first we hear of a user having issues, is when their game has become unplayable..... at which point, the damage is already done. Saves are lost, and it's reinstall time.

 

Of course, the way skyrim handles scripts is at least partly to blame for a fair few of the troubles..... that is one thing where I feel that beth TOTALLY screwed the pooch...... along with a host of others, but, this isn't the place for that discussion... of course, it really isn't the place for the SW pro/con discussion either...... I think the first two posts (after the OP) pretty much sum up this thread.

[Shadeybladey]

 

But that's still no reason to boycott Steam mods.

But I don't boycott Steam mods. I will just not ever use the Workshop again. There's no need to and that's the end of it.

~.~

[Fistandilius]

You actually have a pretty enlightened attitude about the whole steam workshop thing, but then, you are also an experienced mod user. The problem we run into is the folks that AREN'T, and just 'assume' that the SW will 'take care of' the little quirks involved in modding a complex game. Usually, the first we hear of a user having issues, is when their game has become unplayable..... at which point, the damage is already done. Saves are lost, and it's reinstall time.

 

Of course, the way skyrim handles scripts is at least partly to blame for a fair few of the troubles..... that is one thing where I feel that beth TOTALLY screwed the pooch...... along with a host of others, but, this isn't the place for that discussion... of course, it really isn't the place for the SW pro/con discussion either...... I think the first two posts (after the OP) pretty much sum up this thread.

 

I understand what you're getting at, I really do. It really is a system where if you don't know how it works it can make your game a mess. But that's more or less what I'm saying. If you tell people how it works, then there isn't anything to make a mess of. Even the guys here that are saying they use NMM are saying they can download a steam mod, and put it in NMM, so there are ways to make the system work no matter how you choose to use it. By just saying, "Steam sucks don't use it." You're avoiding the issues and leaving the door closed to some mod authors who won't use Nexus or don't even know about it.

 

And I never played a bethesda game before Skyrim this year, so I learned this stuff by doing it and researching it. Anyone else can do the same. I bought Oblivion AFTER skyrim, the same with Morrowind. I still haven't hardly touched new vegas and I don't have fallout 3 yet. I learned how mods work by trying to read up on them and messing with the creation kit. Ironically I probably use less mods than the majority of people here in the mod related forum, but I spend the most time here because I'm more or less constantly learning more or trying to help someone else.

[ripple]

Fistandilius, on 26 Dec 2013 - 2:41 PM, said:

 

 

 

It does no such thing. It's a simple tool to browse and download mods. If you buy a radio at best buy and they tell you it has free installation, that doesn't mean you're obligated to use it the way they installed it, or use it at all. The difference is, the radio probably comes with a warranty, whereas your video game does not. Because modding is a allowed and encouraged, not technically supported. Two different things.

 

The only difference between Steam and Nexus, is when you download something from Nexus it puts it in a special directory. Steam puts it in the data directory. That is the ONLY difference. Skyrim is what loads the mods (not steam) into your data list. Anything put in the data directory is loaded into your data list if it is an esp, esm, or bsa.

 

 

I am sorry, but your analogy does not make any sense. If I buy a radio, I do not expect the manufacturer to insist that I must contact a third party and add additional components from them to that radio before I can start using it. Radio and game software are completely different things. The analogy simply does not work.

 

The real 'difference' here is that no site -except- the Workshop attempts to implement something that smacks of an 'end to end proprietary control mechanism' to the modding of a PC game. If I am using the NMM (and there are more mod managers than just the NMM), I can download a mod manually, or I can download the mod via the NMM, but in either case, I can check the contents of a mod PRIOR to installing it into my game. No mod manager automatically installs the game for you when you run the game. The Steam Workshop explicitly does not allow mod users to do that.

 

You are under the impression that if one downloads a mod, they MUST want to install it. This is not always the case. I download mods all the time, and the first thing I do is to check out what they do and how they do it. The primary purpose is to verify the quality of the mod and the mod author's level of expertise before deciding if I actually want to install the mod into my load order. An equally, if not more important purpose, is to see if the mod contains any conflicts with the mods I am already using, either in terms of overlapping resources or esp records. The Workshop does not allow users to do that. You have no access to the mod contents until it's been installed. I don't know why you keep trying to obscure this point. It doesn't matter if you can unsubscribe a mod from the Workshop to prevent it from updating, when it makes no difference in this regard. I also don't know why your reasoning here is that it's easier to fish through the game data folder for those files, rather than simply allow the user to open up an archive and check what's inside before 'what's inside' gets dumped into the game data folder.

 

Those are opinions.

 

 

 

Yes, but they are uninformed opinions. I am not trying to insult you, but the majority of mods I use/have used did not require updates when DLCs were released. All of the mods I've released do not require updates to be compatible with DLCs. If a mod does not contain records or resource that are affected by DLCs, it usually does not require any sort of special update to be compatible with DLCs. You don't need to update a custom body replacer for vanilla races in order for the body replacer to be compatible with a DLC. Most of the mods for Skyrim are not complex operations, so many of those can continued to be used alongside DLCs even though they have not been updated since the release of the DLCs. Some sort of minor 'tweak mod' that, for example, increases weight carry capacity, would not need an update to be compatible with the DLCs, or even official patches. In fact, even for mods that update for DLCs, some of them update in order to provide additional content to -support- the DLCs, not for 'compatibility' reasons. But this whole point is moot, since it bears no relevance to the utility of the Steam Workshop, which is what we are discussing. I simply had no idea why you even brought it up.

 

 

You seem to have arbitrarily taken that last bit personally. But it's ironic that you argue that Boss is a tool that needs to be monitored in order for you to use it properly and yet you argue that Steam sucks because you have to monitor what it does.

 

I didn't take anything 'personally.' I have no idea why you would interpret that from what I said. I merely pointed out that I find your 'opinion' entirely disagreeable (and sometimes without basis), and supplied a line of reasoning to support why I think that. If you like using the Workshop, by all means, use it. Unlike the Workshop, I am not trying and dictate how you should install your mods. But my advice to any Skyrim mod user is that no one should rely on the Steam Workshop to handle their mod un/installation, because it's not a real mod manager. If one does not like NMM, they can still use Wrye Bash/BAINS, or the Mod Organizer (probably the best of all three). In fact, even installing mods manually is safer than using the Workshop for a new mod users, if the Workshop does in fact delete mods from user game installations when those mods are removed from the Workshop (although I find this suspect, I would like to think that Steam could not possibly be this ignorant about the nature of Papyrus scripting and Skyrim save games....). Also, you don't 'monitor Steam', rather, Steam monitors you. :smile:

Edited December 27, 2013 by ripple

[Fistandilius]

 

I am sorry, but your analogy does not make any sense. If I buy a radio, I do not expect the manufacturer to insist that I must contact a third party and add additional components from them to that radio before I can start using it. Radio and game software are completely different things. The analogy simply does not work.

 

You don't know much about car stereo's then. You're not going to install an aftermarket radio without adding a pigtail adapter, and probably a dashboard sleeve. Of course best buy will probably have those in stock for you at an extra cost. Or did you even buy the radio at best buy or did you just have them install it? See? Everything is complicated if you don't have all the details.

 

 

You are under the impression that if one downloads a mod, they MUST want to install it.

 

No, I'm not. But the process is the same. Whether you download it from Steam and check it out, or NMM loads it in a temporary directory, one way or another you're downloading the files to check them out. You may not physically see it on your hard drive, but one way or another you have to get the files off the server to view them. In the case of steam you have to manually delete them if you aren't happy with what you got. I can't speak for NMM.

 

 

I don't know why you keep trying to obscure this point. It doesn't matter if you can unsubscribe a mod from the Workshop to prevent it from updating, when it makes no difference in this regard. I also don't know why your reasoning here is that it's easier to fish through the game data folder for those files, rather than simply allow the user to open up an archive and check what's inside before 'what's inside' gets dumped into the game data folder.

 

I'm not trying to obscure the point. I'm telling you that you don't have to keep the files or use them. Yes, it takes extra steps. We already established that. I never once said Steam was better than NMM or Mod Organizer or whatever you're using. I never said it was easier. I said the mods themselves were simpler and easier to manually uninstall. They are far less likely, IMO to screw up your setup because you can only have an .esm, .esp, or .bsa. You don't have any batch files, you don't have any special loaders the mod author wrote, or any of the other weird obscure things that you randomly run across on the nexus. You guys keep acting like these things don't happen. The unofficial oblivion patch had a front loader program on it that would run about 1000 scripts and you had no idea what was going on behind the scenes. That's just one example.

 

 

Yes, but they are uninformed opinions. I am not trying to insult you, but the majority of mods I use/have used did not require updates when DLCs were released.

 

Those are the mods you used! What about the people who were on the Nexus here complaining every day after a DLC or an update came out?

 

 

I didn't take anything 'personally.' I have no idea why you would interpret that from what I said. I merely pointed out that I find your 'opinion' entirely disagreeable (and sometimes without basis), and supplied a line of reasoning to support why I think that. If you like using the Workshop, by all means, use it. Unlike the Workshop, I am not trying and dictate how you should install your mods.

 

You repeated my "hold your hand" phrase over and over again as if you found it offensive. I don't see how you can deny that Boss or Wrye Bash or whatever you're using doesn't require less attention than Steam does, because as you keep pointing out, Steam doesn't do ANYTHING with your load order or your files except put them in the directory and add them to the list. That was my point. And I never even said I LIKED Steam. This whole thing started because Shadey pointed out in two separate threads that Steam should not be used, and I asked him/her why because there was no reason given. All I'm saying is Steam is a service that is there to be used and if you know how it behaves, then there's no reason not to use it.

 

 

But my advice to any Skyrim mod user is that no one should rely on the Steam Workshop to handle their mod un/installation, because it's not a real mod manager. If one does not like NMM, they can still use Wrye Bash/BAINS, or the Mod Organizer (probably the best of all three). In fact, even installing mods manually is safer than using the Workshop for a new mod users, if the Workshop does in fact delete mods from user game installations when those mods are removed from the Workshop (although I find this suspect, I would like to think that Steam could not possibly be this ignorant about the nature of Papyrus scripting and Skyrim save games....). Also, you don't 'monitor Steam', rather, Steam monitors you.

 

Again, I don't know where you got the idea that I'm saying Steam is a mod manager. I didn't compare it to NMM to begin with, because I don't use NMM and I don't know a thing about how it specifically operates. I can't confirm or deny whether or not steam deletes the files if they're removed from the workshop because all my mods are still there. I've never bothered to look and see if they're still on the workshop because I already have them. I personally think that's not the case because I doubt steam keeps track of your mods once they're installed and unsubscribed, but I could be wrong. It seems like wasted server space to me to save that data. But then if you consider what Xander said about Steam not letting you update just one mod if you have 30 unsubscribed, then I guess somewhere it does keep track.

 

All I'm saying is I wouldn't tell a new user to stay away from Steam, I would explain to them how it works. It literally takes about 5 minutes. It's not a difficult process. I don't know why it's such a big deal to mod users to begin with. I guess everything is supposed to be automated now and if you have to go and manually take a few steps, it's a big deal. Is it the fact that Steam doesn't tell you what it's doing that bothers you? I personally don't feel too bad for these newbies you're defending that just go and use something without even trying to figure out what it does, how it works, and what you need to know about it to make it work. This is why I don't use apple products. I want to know how my stuff works. But then that was the point of these two threads. Newbies who were smart enough to ask first: "What should I do?"

 

But again... I'm not going through steam and subscribing to 30 mods at one time. I install one mod at a time, I run it, I play with it for a while to be sure everything is stable, and then I might install another mod. At best I'll subscribe to a few steam mods and remove them from my data list and try them one at a time. That literally takes seconds. It's no big deal.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Fistandilius

[ripple]

 

 

I am sorry, but your analogy does not make any sense. If I buy a radio, I do not expect the manufacturer to insist that I must contact a third party and add additional components from them to that radio before I can start using it. Radio and game software are completely different things. The analogy simply does not work.

 

You don't know much about car stereo's then. You're not going to install an aftermarket radio without adding a pigtail adapter, and probably a dashboard sleeve. Of course best buy will probably have those in stock for you at an extra cost. Or did you even buy the radio at best buy or did you just have them install it? See? Everything is complicated if you don't have all the details.

First, you said 'radio', not 'car stereo.' No one buys a car stereo system and goes through the trouble of installing it into their car just so they can listen to the radio. You are being disingenuous (and that I do take 'personally'), as it's only 'complicated' because you retroactively -revised- the analogy. Second, I don't know why you used that as an analogy when there are countless far more fitting analogies, but it still does not apply. Neither a radio nor a car stereo = a PC game. Third, I am 'under the impression' that you think the Workshop is a mod manager -because- you keep comparing it to NMM. If you do not want to convey the impression that you think it's a mod manager, then don't compare it to NMM and other mod managers.

 

You clearly do not understand why the Steam Workshop is so disliked, or is deliberately trying to be obtuse. This statement says it all:

 

Is it the fact that Steam doesn't tell you what it's doing that bothers you?

 

Once again, the problem is not that Steam 'doesn't tell you what it's doing', but that it actually prevents you from doing things.

 

I've used every possible method of mod un/installation for Skyrim: manually, Steam Workshop, NMM, Wrye Bash, MO. The Workshop is hands down the worst method of un/installing mods for Skyrim in my experience. In fact, although the Workshop is not a mod manager (even though it pretends to be one and is treated like one by some Steamers), and can theoretically be used in conjunction with a real mod manager, its restrictive installation mechanisms actually throws a monkey wrench at users of other mod managers, like the Mod Organizer. One of the primary function of MO is to allow users to maintain a vanilla game installation by installing mods into their isolated folders, thus maintaining a game data folder that contains only vanilla game files. This is especially useful to mod authors who may need to test mods in a base game environment, and provides users with a 'vanilla installation' they can always return to without have to go through the aggravation of reinstalling the game. The Workshop actually makes that difficult. The only workaround is to follow the alternative method I previously recommended for users who want access to Workshop exclusive mods, which is to repackage the mod installed by the Workshop and install it through a real mod manager, thus making the Workshop's installation mechanism entirely redundant.

 

Every method of downloading mods allows the user to decide where the mod should go, except the Workshop. Every method of installing mods allows the user to check the content of a mod prior to installation, except the Workshop. Contrary to what you are saying, THAT is what makes the Workshop 'speshuuul', not because it 'automates too much' or 'automates too little.' The issue has nothing to do with 'automation', but 'restrictions.' And to be blunt, if you do not have experience with using all of the methods of installation, you have no basis for comparison.

 

My personal opinion is that people should stop using the Workshop. If enough people stop using the Workshop, Steam might actually feel compelled to revisit its installation mechanisms. All they would need to do is to add some options that would grant users more control over where mod files go (at least as far as regular users are concerned. Issues for modders is a different matter and probably fill up an entire thread on its own....), which would in no way impact users who prefer the existing model. But they have no reason to do that when there are stilll people who go around saying 'oh, but the Workshop has no problems at all....'

Edited December 27, 2013 by ripple