Am I able to keep a vanilla backup or install to second location?

[Xander9009]

I concur with ripple. MO is the way to go if you want a clean skyrim folder. It'll leave it intact without doubling its hard drive space usage. Plus, should you choose, you can put certain mods directly in your skyrim folder and leave the rest to be managed by MO. Mods like SKSE have to be installed directly. But that, SkyUI, and a few other essential ones should never need removed, so leaving them in your main folder is a good plan anyway.

 

I can respect where you're coming from. I don't even use boss or nmm. But from what I recall reading, running Skyrim in offline mode eliminates the auto updating of steam. As far as automatically installing your subscribed items... Skyrim installs ANYTHING new in the data directory automatically. I can tell you this from experience because all my mods are installed manually as I don't use NMM and rarely use Steam items. If I unzip a file into the data directory, Skyrim will find it when I launch and it adds it to the data list, checked as ready to run. I have to manually go into data and uncheck it or it will run right away, even if I just put the mod in there to play with it later.

And as you said, if you unsubscribe from an item it won't auto update, so the tools are there for you.

 

The only thing that really bugs me about Steam is when you verify cache it overwrites your ini file.

 

As far as the workshop goes, I do use a few mods from there, but there's another issue it has which I don't think was pointed out. The fact that if you have 30 mods from the workshop and subscribe to another, it won't download and become usable until all the other mods have updated. Which, with 30 mods or more, can take quite awhile. Not to mention not being able to do it in offline mode. Only way around THAT which I've found is to subscribe, let it download, zip them, import them into MO (because I don't allow stray files in my folders), then unsubscribe, run the launcher again and let it recognize you're no longer subscribed, delete the files, and FINALLY move on as if it was a non-workshop mod. And bonus points for repeating the whole process if the mod gets updated.

 

 

And as you said, if you unsubscribe from an item it won't auto update, so the tools are there for you.

So, we have to subscribe to make them download, then unsubscribe so they won't update on their own without our permission and potentially screw up our games. Especially with house mods updating or mods with scripts. That's a clunky system. Not necessarily broken, but clunky.

 

All in all, like I said, I get where you're coming from, but I still find steam mods to be safer than items found on the nexus that overwrite things on your hard drive, add scripts that you can't find to remove, etc.

 

Using NMM or MO makes getting rid of those files quite easy. Personally, I use MO, and NOTHING affects my data folder unless I decide it should. Also, to say you "can't" find and remove them is incorrect. You can keep track of what files you're installing or reopen the same zip file you downloaded (or re-downloaded if you deleted it) and look at what files are in there. Of course, that's fixed by using some kind of mod manager. The fact that you don't doesn't make them less useful. To call them safer simply because you don't use a mod manager is faulty reasoning. I'm not saying you should use one; I'm saying you shouldn't suggest to other people that the files are less safe than workshop files when there are numerous ways to fix that.

 

Someone tried to argue with me in another thread that there was nothing wrong with SKSE, and I was a fool for speaking out against it. Well disregarding the fact that he was off topic, I never said anything against SKSE, all I said was that I won't use it. SKSE might run perfectly fine, but there are tons of mods out there that use it and introduce game instabilities that are far less likely to occur by using the basic scripts available. So I guess my point is, it's not just the tools you use, it's how you use them.

 

That's not a reason to not use SKSE. That's a reason to be more careful about what mods you're using. You're also less likely to have issues if you don't have Dragonborn. Or ANY extra files. Or even Skyrim itself. So, as you can see, that's flawed logic. It's fine if you want to do that, that's you're choice. But there's no need to spread bad logic around.

[Fistandilius]

 

That's not a reason to not use SKSE. That's a reason to be more careful about what mods you're using. You're also less likely to have issues if you don't have Dragonborn. Or ANY extra files. Or even Skyrim itself. So, as you can see, that's flawed logic. It's fine if you want to do that, that's you're choice. But there's no need to spread bad logic around.

 

I think you misunderstood the analogy. Or at least overlooked it. In regards to the other stuff, I didn't know about the subscribing thing, but then I never had a reason why I didn't want to update my mods. And I have no interest in addressing the rest today as I have already apparently offended some people.

[Xander9009]

I think you misunderstood the analogy. Or at least overlooked it. In regards to the other stuff, I didn't know about the subscribing thing, but then I never had a reason why I didn't want to update my mods. And I have no interest in addressing the rest today as I have already apparently offended some people.

Then what was meant by the analogy?

 

It's not often I don't want to update my mods. Mostly just the ones I mentioned. When a house is updated, if it messed too much with the containers, then I'll lose the items stored in those containers. If a mod with actively updating scripts updates, it can screw with my saved games unless I'm prepared for it. It's not usually an issue, but doing it without giving me the choice to at least put it off until I'm ready is indefensible.

 

I'm not offended (though I can't speak for ShadeyBladey). I just think that the workshop has flaws which need addressed if its supposed to contend with Nexus Mod Manager or Mod Organizer getting files from the Nexus or TES Alliance or another source.

[Fistandilius]

 

Then what was meant by the analogy?

The point I made about SKSE had nothing to do with SKSE at all. I just used the example of why I don't use SKSE to illustrate the point that all software is a tool and its made to work a certain way and if you understand how it works you can use it, and you can't get upset if it doesn't do something it wasn't designed to do.

 

 

It's not often I don't want to update my mods. Mostly just the ones I mentioned. When a house is updated, if it messed too much with the containers, then I'll lose the items stored in those containers. If a mod with actively updating scripts updates, it can screw with my saved games unless I'm prepared for it. It's not usually an issue, but doing it without giving me the choice to at least put it off until I'm ready is indefensible.

 

I can certainly understand that. Like I said, the part you said about having 30 workshop mods and not being able to update them one at a time was something I didn't know about. I realize that I don't use mods the same way as most people. I install them minimally and manually. I bought stock Skyrim because I loved it. Not because I wanted to change it. I added mods when I exhausted the stock game and wanted more to do. I don't install a mod until I read about it, see what goes into it, read the comments and decide how destructive it can be to my game. I don't install more than one new mod at a time and I use it for a while until I'm certain everything is stable. But that doesn't make me wrong anymore than it makes you wrong for installing 300 mods and using NMM (if that's what you chose to do.)

 

 

I'm not offended (though I can't speak for ShadeyBladey). I just think that the workshop has flaws which need addressed if its supposed to contend with Nexus Mod Manager or Mod Organizer getting files from the Nexus or TES Alliance or another source.

 

Well, I didn't think you were offended and that part wasn't directed at you personally. I just know how these back and forth types of discussions tend to end up with both parties being moderated and I'd rather just drop it and be thought as being wrong than continue and get myself in trouble. There's not too many boards I frequent where the moderators brag about their banhammer and I already had one thread locked today over something that had nothing to do with my post.

 

As far as the other goes, Steam isn't perfect. I didn't mean to imply that it was. But nothing is, and I'm sure there are people who have their issues with NMM or Mod Organizer. I for one don't like to rely on a program deciding where all my things go and making decisions for me. Most mods are, but not all mods are in the form of simple scripts or textures to be put in the data directory more specifically when you're talking about utility type mods or programs.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Fistandilius

[HeyYou]

 

 

Yeah, whatever happened to the good old days, when you put in the disk, installed the game, and PLAYED. I hate steam with a passion. But, it seems publishers don't particularly care about that...

 

LOL! Yeah, I may be a bit of a Luddite, but *I* decide what my PC does. I even customise Windows 7 to look as much like Windows 98 as possible as I find the colour scheme and everything else much more relaxed and familiar.

 

I think if I used someone else's Windows 7 machine, I probably would not be able to find anything.

 

And don't even get me started on predictive texting! :verymad:

 

~.~

 

I wonder if we are related.....

 

I am still on XP, but, I turn off all the MS doo dads, and my desktop is indistinguishable from a win 98 machine. :) "Themes" just grinds my gears.

[ripple]

 

Someone tried to argue with me in another thread that there was nothing wrong with SKSE, and I was a fool for speaking out against it. Well disregarding the fact that he was off topic, I never said anything against SKSE, all I said was that I won't use it. SKSE might run perfectly fine, but there are tons of mods out there that use it and introduce game instabilities that are far less likely to occur by using the basic scripts available. So I guess my point is, it's not just the tools you use, it's how you use them.

 

But your logic here is not sound. Any mod can introduce instability if it is a poorly made mod. An error record, a faulty mesh or texture, bad scripts. This occurs with or without SKSE. So if you acknowledge that SKSE is not the cause of game instability, but rather poorly made mods, then it doesn't make sense to me how you could claim SKSE mods constitute a disproportionate number of mods that "introduce game instabilities" that would be "far less likely to occur by using the basic scripts available", when 1) the logic of your acknowledgement would dictate that this cannot be inferred, and 2) there's absolute no concrete data to even suggest this is the case.

 

I can't help but have the feeling that you've gotten the bulk of your Skyrim modding information from the Steam forums, a notorious breeding ground of ignorance. Those forums are the same places where foolish Skyrim modding myths continue to be perpetuated, like claims that 'BOSS will mess up your load order' or 'plugin cleaning will corrupt your save game'....

Edited December 27, 2013 by ripple

[Fistandilius]

 

 

Someone tried to argue with me in another thread that there was nothing wrong with SKSE, and I was a fool for speaking out against it. Well disregarding the fact that he was off topic, I never said anything against SKSE, all I said was that I won't use it. SKSE might run perfectly fine, but there are tons of mods out there that use it and introduce game instabilities that are far less likely to occur by using the basic scripts available. So I guess my point is, it's not just the tools you use, it's how you use them.

 

But your logic here is not sound. Any mod can introduce instability if it is a poorly made mod. An error record, a faulty mesh or texture, bad scripts. This occurs with or without SKSE. So if you acknowledge that SKSE is not the cause of game instability, but rather poorly made mods, then it doesn't make sense to me how you could claim SKSE mods constitute a disproportionate number of mods that "introduce game instabilities" that would be "far less likely to occur by using the basic scripts available", when 1) the logic of your acknowledgement would dictate that this cannot be inferred, and 2) there's absolute no concrete data to even suggest this is the case.

 

I can't help but have the feeling that you've gotten the bulk of your Skyrim modding information from the Steam forums, a notorious breeding ground of ignorance. Those forums are the same places where foolish Skyrim modding myths continue to be perpetuated, like claims that 'BOSS will mess up your load order' or 'plugin cleaning will corrupt your save game'....

 

 

I don't use the steam forums. I don't even know if you can use your steam account sign on or if you need a separate login for the forum.

Regardless, you couldn't have read my response to Xander because you missed the point of that analogy as well. You don't have to agree with me about SKSE. That wasn't the point of what I was saying. Go back and read my reply to Xander.

[Xander9009]

This is an attempt to better understand what you were saying. If the way I phrased something suggests I was frustrated, angry, offended, rude, etc., please keep in mind that I am not. I promise, this is strictly me trying to figure out how we (you , me, and ripple) have misunderstood one another.

Someone tried to argue with me in another thread that there was nothing wrong with SKSE, and I was a fool for speaking out against it. Well disregarding the fact that he was off topic, I never said anything against SKSE, all I said was that I won't use it. SKSE might run perfectly fine, but there are tons of mods out there that use it and introduce game instabilities that are far less likely to occur by using the basic scripts available. So I guess my point is, it's not just the tools you use, it's how you use them.

 

 

Then what was meant by the analogy?

The point I made about SKSE had nothing to do with SKSE at all. I just used the example of why I don't use SKSE to illustrate the point that all software is a tool and its made to work a certain way and if you understand how it works you can use it, and you can't get upset if it doesn't do something it wasn't designed to do.

I can understand this second statement regarding SKSE. I even completely agree with it. But you must understand our confusion. We (ripple and I) were both caught by the same thing; that thing is the fact that your statement of the analogy does not say the same thing as your explanation of it.

 

 

I was a fool for speaking out against it

 

Either you were speaking out against SKSE, which means you need evidence that SKSE is flawed in some way (in the form of consistently more problems while SKSE is installed with properly made mods using it), or you weren't speaking out against SKSE.

 

 

I never said anything against SKSE

 

This explains that it's the latter, that you didn't say anything against SKSE.

 

 

all I said was that I won't use it

 

But then this bit is confusing, because you apparently acknowledge that there's nothing wrong with SKSE and immediately follow up with a statement which would be expected to follow a claim that there is something wrong with it.

 

 

SKSE might run perfectly fine

 

Once again, you're acknowledging SKSE isn't (or might not be) the source of the problem.

 

 

but there are tons of mods out there that use it and introduce game instabilities that are far less likely to occur by using the basic scripts available.

 

But finally, here we have the MAIN source of problems. You're claiming that there wouldn't have been issues if they'd used the vanilla functions. THIS is where the majority of our "misinterpretation" originates. A properly made script can use either (unless it can't be done with vanilla functions alone). But since SKSE offers various shortcuts to otherwise very tedious problems, and other times it offers paths to destinations otherwise completely unreachable, it clearly offers a benefit. There is no evidence that SKSE or its mods are any less reliable than the vanilla functions. There is plenty of evidence that there are many poorly made mods, however. Any many of them use SKSE, sure. But you must also remember that many of those mods aren't actually poorly made, and they certainly wouldn't cause fewer issues by being made with only vanilla functions. I say this because they can't be made with vanilla functions. SKSE has the tools which are necessary to make them. However, because vanilla functions aren't written to accommodate them, and SKSE can only do so much, they end up with problems. They're not poorly made, and it's not because they use SKSE, it's because they're attempting something which is incredibly difficult in the papyrus environment. ~I come back to this at the very end.

 

We're not claiming you outright said "skse is bad". We're trying to understand how you can simultaneously claim to understand that SKSE is not the source of the problem and that we're better off not using SKSE at all (it's a few quotes up; it's indirect, but it's there).

 

NOW that all of that's out of the way and you hopefully understanding what we're interpreting, after re-reading your entire post (not just the quoted section) multiple times, I think I do, in fact, understand what you meant. Mind you, the above still stands because you did seem to suggest we're better of without SKSE simply because people use it poorly. However, I think you just phrased it very badly. It seems to be an opinion you hold which, for you, is quite simple. Because it's simple for you, you assume it's something which doesn't need explained to others; you just have to bring it up, and they'll recognize it without further prompting. This is not the case.

 

Specifically, I think you meant to refer to the people MAKING mods and the fact that they are using SKSE badly. You cluttered up the idea by pointing out you won't use it, which is a point of view from the mod USER's perspective. You're making it jump around and it makes it difficult to understand what you're trying to say. But I think you meant that people who are using SKSE to make their mods need to use it more carefully so they don't introduce new issues into the game which wouldn't have been as easy to introduce if they'd been using vanilla functions. With this, I can, to some extent, agree. But I must point something out, and that is the idea that vanilla functions are just as dangerous as SKSE functions. The only reason SKSE functions are likelier to screw up your game is because people who are acquainted with vanilla functions might assume they understand SKSE functions as well. That leads them to using those functions without properly understanding them. SKSE functions often have less information available, as well. And obviously no examples in the vanilla game exist. So, the only real difference between vanilla functions and SKSE's added functions is how well they are understood and how easy it is to learn about them.

 

But even with that caveat, you're making the claim that mods that use SKSE are more likely to have problems. While that might be the case, this is very easily countered on a mod user's end by a basic understanding of what they're doing. Read the description, comments, and readme. It may use SKSE, but that doesn't inherently make it different from a vanilla-function-only mod. Just treating it like a normal mod and paying attention to what you're downloading (which it doesn't sound like you have a problem with) will be just as effective, SKSE or non.

 

~Perhpas these are the very situations you're talking about. Mods which are trying to do things which cannot properly be done. They present themselves as normal mods that use SKSE, they claim success, but then they cause problems because they simply cannot accomplish what they set out to do without causing issues. But these are easily identifiable from the comments, usually. Even if the mod author won't tell you there are issues with it, the users will.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Xander9009

[Fistandilius]

This is an attempt to better understand what you were saying. If the way I phrased something suggests I was frustrated, angry, offended, rude, etc., please keep in mind that I am not. I promise, this is strictly me trying to figure out how we (you , me, and ripple) have misunderstood one another.

 

 

<snip>

 

~Perhpas these are the very situations you're talking about. Mods which are trying to do things which cannot properly be done. They present themselves as normal mods that use SKSE, they claim success, but then they cause problems because they simply cannot accomplish what they set out to do without causing issues. But these are easily identifiable from the comments, usually. Even if the mod author won't tell you there are issues with it, the users will.

 

I'm going to attempt to summarize my response quickly here without touching on the mass of text you left (no offense). I'm trying to answer your question, but we're way off topic at this point and it's probably going to get locked.

 

The reason you both were confused about my skse analogy is because you both read too much into it. It was simply an example. The analogy was supposed to have been clearly an analogy when I summarized it by saying, "So I guess my point is, it's not just the tools you use, it's how you use them."

 

As far as your confusion over my stance on SKSE. I have not used SKSE. It may be a perfect program. I choose not to use it because I know what it's SUPPOSED to do. I might describe this poorly, but basically it takes the list of..... we used to call them functions when I programmed on MUDs back in the day.... that Bethesda has available and it adds new ones that are able to do things you couldn't otherwise do. Do I have that right?

 

Regardless. Why do I think that mods using SKSE are more likely to be buggy? Because granted, there are people out there who know exactly what they're doing when it comes to scripts, but there are a whole lot MORE people out there who don't know what they're doing. Added to that is the fact that people who know exactly what they're doing are still not perfect. They make mistakes. They use one function when they could use another one more efficiently. Etc.

 

The bottom line is, more scripts equals more room for error. SKSE is typically used by mods that require heavy scripting.

 

It's as simple as that. Granted there are some great looking mods out there that are probably very cool, but I choose not to have the headache of possibly breaking my game due to someone making a mistake or simply making a mod not compatible with something I'm already using.

 

Not to mention the extra hassle of having to install SKSE in the first place.

 

By saying, "I choose not to use SKSE." I'm not putting the program down, or defending it. I'm just choosing not to use it. You guys automatically made an assumption that because I chose not to use it, I think the program is faulty or bad. That is not the case. One doesn't have to have anything to do with the other.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Fistandilius

[Xander9009]

The reason you both were confused about my skse analogy is because you both read too much into it. It was simply an example. The analogy was supposed to have been clearly an analogy when I summarized it by saying, "So I guess my point is, it's not just the tools you use, it's how you use them."

Instead of beating around the bush, I'll simply say it. We were confused because you used a terrible example. The logic you've used is inherently flawed. Even in this last response, you're claiming SKSE can be perfect, and yet somehow using SKSE exposes you to more risk because of bad programming. Bag programming is just as easy with or without SKSE functions. Also, I quite clearly (blatantly, in fact) told you I understood you didn't think SKSE itself was flawed. So, saying I "automatically assumed" it is... not promising. (As for installing, personally, I don't consider a single copy-paste to be very much of a hassle.) What you meant by the analogy is something I fully agree with. But stop saying we misunderstood it because we misinterpreted your original post because we didn't read your follow-up. We misunderstood it because a) the association didn't make sense and because b) the thing you compared to (skse) was built on faulty logic.

 

I don't want to get on anyone's bad side, so I'm just going to stop here. I'm not trying to attack you or anything. I'm not saying you hate skse. I'm not even saying I don't agree with what you meant (because I do agree with it; programs are tools and using them properly is up to us). I'm just saying you explained it very badly. I'm sorry, but that's the plain and simple truth.