Indio21 Posted March 8 Author Share Posted March 8 3 minutes ago, AaronOfMpls said: Also, what order is LOOT trying to sort your mods into? If it's alphabetical, then something's gone wrong with it for sure. You might need to check if LOOT is loading updated info. Well that is the thing. I started making LOOT behave with assigning groups and making "Load After" rules, but discovered that LOOT is problematic unless I have everything nailed down. So, I stopped making rules, but keep adding plugins to groups just incase. As I verify each for LO placement in xedit, I figured just quit using LOOT and then I dont have to worry about it messing up my LO. But, no, if I sort with it LOOT places them as directed. I just haven't been doing it for the last few mod installs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indio21 Posted March 8 Author Share Posted March 8 21 minutes ago, AaronOfMpls said: Though I'm still on MO 2.4.4 myself. So it does not sound like you are experiencing any of the issues I am seeing with v2.4.4, correct? Maybe I should downgrade instead of upgrading. Thank you for your help with this!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronOfMpls Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Indio21 said: So it does not sound like you are experiencing any of the issues I am seeing with v2.4.4, correct? Maybe I should downgrade instead of upgrading. Thank you for your help with this!!!! You're welcome! It's definitely something to try. Although... 19 minutes ago, Indio21 said: Well that is the thing. I started making LOOT behave with assigning groups and making "Load After" rules I haven't messed with my own groups in LOOT yet. Instead I've added mods only a few at a time, and let LOOT sort things how it wants, based on what it already knows. It could be your mod groups are sorting things in unintended ways. But I'm also only at ~120 plugins (including some disabled ones) in my right pane in SE, and still have some installed in the left pane that I haven't activated yet (so they're not yet in my load order). I'm still very much in the process of building a mod setup for SE, and as yet I've purposely avoided mods that edit the same things and/or need a lot of compatibility patches. Your approach with mod groups is somewhat closer to what I've done in LE. I've been at ~230 plugins in LE for years (close to the 254-plugin limit), and rarely add new mods to it anymore. I have a separate "LOOT order" profile in LE's MO setup, and when I add a new mod, I run LOOT on that profile to get a rough guide as to where it goes relative to many of my other mods. Then place the new mod manually in my other profiles' load orders. Edited March 8 by AaronOfMpls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indio21 Posted March 8 Author Share Posted March 8 4 minutes ago, AaronOfMpls said: Your approach with mod groups is somewhat closer to what I've done in LE. I've been at ~230 plugins in LE for years (close to the 254-plugin limit), and rarely add new mods to it anymore. I have a separate "LOOT order" profile in LE's MO setup, and when I add a new mod, I run LOOT on that profile to get a rough guide as to where it goes relative to many of my other mods. Then place the new mod manually in my other profiles' load orders. I read about that for testing new mods and building LO, but have not got my head wrapped around profiles in MO2 as of yet. Figured if I keep checking them in xedit, I will be fine. My plan is to finish the build and make profiles off it to play. Then, as I understand it, that gives some more protection. I read all this before I switched MM tools so a bit fuzzy now with all the rest of the learning. Would anyone know if what is shown in the video below is still an acceptable way to update MO2? Update section starts at 2:30 minutes into video. Thank you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DEzehXK1TA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsharaMeradin Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 It was mentioned earlier that you saw ESPs also being sorted to the top of the load order. It should be noted that some plugins come false flagged. Meaning that they have the ESP extension but have the ESM or ESL header flag marked. The flag is what determines what section of the load order they go to (ESM space, ESL space, or ESP space). Note: ESL is not a thing for Legendary Edition (32-bit) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indio21 Posted March 8 Author Share Posted March 8 16 minutes ago, AaronOfMpls said: You're welcome! It's definitely something to try. Although... I haven't messed with my own groups in LOOT yet. Instead I've added mods only a few at a time, and let LOOT sort things how it wants, based on what it already knows. It could be your mod groups are sorting things in unintended ways. The only way I see that being able to happen is if MO2 was some how able to connect to LOOT from behind the scene. Once the active link to run is switched back to launch SKSE, there should be no connection to LOOT anymore. In my newb terminology, it is a standalone program that MO2 utilizes, it does not make up MO2's internal workings......I'd "think". Assigning the groups to mods only makes LOOT sort the plugins WITHIN the specified group.......as long as no masters attributed or other variables come into play with a plugin, LOOT will always sort them among the group they belong to......again, "if" my understanding is correct. Also note, if I did not feel that was at least 75% correct I would not have started doing it. I was doing it in vortex too for sorting and it worked fine there too. Since switching I have noticed no behavior differences with LOOT. And I believe vortex has more of LOOT making up its internal workings too. If I were to release the groups, LOOT would only sort the LO based on metadata, plugin extensions, and file dates. Which means it would default to putting ones like the UHDAP BELOW the USSEP. It counts on me to tell it where those particular plugins need to be. Otherwise it would need metadata for every single mod ever created or ported to SSE AND every single possible combination it could be used in a LO with other mods.........never going to happen as mods are made to fast for the LOOT team to test and verify each "possible" combination. That is why even the original creator of LOOT says it is not the end to mod LO troubleshooting, it is the BEGINNING. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indio21 Posted March 8 Author Share Posted March 8 13 minutes ago, IsharaMeradin said: It was mentioned earlier that you saw ESPs also being sorted to the top of the load order. It should be noted that some plugins come false flagged. Meaning that they have the ESP extension but have the ESM or ESL header flag marked. The flag is what determines what section of the load order they go to (ESM space, ESL space, or ESP space). Note: ESL is not a thing for Legendary Edition (32-bit) Yes, what I mentioned can be seen in the screen shots. An esp is at the very top, and as I have not inspected the record header of it, I assume that it is flagged an esm. It is that the system knows esms need and are loaded first, so if it is defaulting to that process, why isn't ALL the esms at the top.....or something similar. It grabbed a stand alone plugin for a single fix and put that at the top over plugins with a direct esm extension. I just thought if I could understand what it is using for logic I might be able to find a fix. But I see no logical sense of it, ahhhhh lol. Thanks, please keep the ideas coming as I am all ears! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indio21 Posted March 9 Author Share Posted March 9 Well for anyone that cares to know, I got confirmation from another user that they too are having the exact same problem with MO2 v2.5.0 as I am, with it rearranging plugin LO. I also got confirmation from a different user they too had various other problems with it like I had noticed with downloads and overwrite. They have a large LO and noticed the problems right away and downgraded to v2.4.4 and all works well. So, with those confirmations, I think the problem is in the version release and not OE (Operator Error.....me basically, lol). Therefore I believe, later, I will either downgrade or update to the beta version and try them. I think I will try the latest release and see if I notice the same problems first. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronOfMpls Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 @Indio21 Good to know about MO 2.5.0. Do let us know how 2.4.4 and/or the 2.5.1 RCs work for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indio21 Posted March 9 Author Share Posted March 9 Now that I got all of the below posted where the MO team can find it, here it is for those who want to know........Note also I may have to do it in multiple posts I did a series of test involving various versions of MO2 and LOOT, due to the issues discovered with MO2 v2.5.0 of rearranging LO. The reason for doing so many tests is because of the change log notes I found in LOOT. In LOOT version 0.22.0 the following is noted in the "Fixed" section: When reading the load order, LOOT now orders plugins correctly when their order depends on their timestamps and two plugins have the same timestamp. LOOT used to sort them in ascending filename order: it now uses descending order for all games other than Starfield. Via libloot. This is why in my previous screen shot of my LO, see below, after running the game or adding a plugin, an esp plugin (specifically in this case for reference, the Better Windhelm Ground Meshes Placement Correction.esp plugin) is placed at the very top ahead of direct .esm plugins flagged as an esm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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