Animal Manslaughter?

[ginnyfizz]

The People demanded it. Funny I never noticed that, when 400,000 of us marched against the ban we got more applause than boos. Wonder how many kills you have seen up close?

 

There's alot more than 400,000 people in England , sorry but in a democracy majority rules.

I used to work on a sheep farm, i have seen what a ramblers dog can do.

 

 

The hunting issue was never put to a public vote, how can you ever know? And it is a very long time since the UK-that-all-but-abolished-Habeas Corpus under New Labour was a democracy. Personally, I find shooting unarmed Brazilians seven or eight times in the head when you already have them cuffed far more distasteful than what may happen to bushy tailed vermin.

 

If you are really concerned about animal cruelty, I'd suggest you address the issue of the export of live animals for slaughter and not hunting. I speak of someone who has actively picketed Plymouth's Millbay Docks in that cause, ie anti live export. After all, meat requires hanging before you eat it.

[Trandoshan]

I would like to say that instinct is certainly an aspect of intelligence. Does instinct not originate as a function of the brain? You can't say, from a scientific point of view, that instinct is God's Hand guiding the animals to respite. Instinct is still a viable form of intelligence, one that we have lost in the age of popping the can on a soda-pop and discussing what intelligence is. (Guilty BTW)

 

Of course we do have the capacity for instinct, but set an average Blue-Collar Joe in the wild with no training and civilization hundreds of miles away, and you have one dead man. Instinct is a learned reaction. The Evidence? Pavlov's Dogs...

 

http://nobelprize.org/educational_games/me...v/readmore.html

 

In a similar instance, a dog who has never seen a ham before sees it on the other side of the screen (The screen is sealed, and no particles of the food can be smelled. The dog will not react to it at all. Now the dog is given a Ham, and happily eats it with zeal. The next day, A Ham is again put on the other side of the screen. What is the dog's reaction now? Salivation.

 

On a more Instinctual Example, A Human is presented with an object (Knife) that he has never seen before. He contemplates it before picking it up, as he does not know what it is. A more experienced man walks over, and picks the knife up with malicious intent. the younger, less informed man asks what it is, only to have been stabbed several times by the knife as the older man runs away. The younger man survives the endeavor, but always takes caution when around people with knives.

 

Instinct? Intelligence?

 

Intelligence by a psychological standpoint == learned reaction to an action.

 

You hear an interesting bit of information in the classroom, and you learn it to be used on a test.

 

Information == action

Use of Information on Test == reaction

 

How about say....

 

Eating of the ham by the dog == action

Dog Salivates at the sight of ham == reaction

 

 

Now, while it is true that most humans can arithmetic and speak fluently, I can honestly say that I have seen some humans that can do neither. Instinct as a form of intelligence is debatable, but this is not that debate.

[Kendo 2]

Point of Parliamentary Procedure

 

The topic at hand is "Animal Manslaughter?, Should Owners Be Charged?"

 

And attempting to blur the line between intellect and instinct for the sake of this debate is folly. They are not the same and we all know it.

 

Pavlov's hyper-conditioned dogs? C'mon man. A duck with a brain the size of pea will ring a bell for a treat. That's simply a bad example.

 

Animals are not cognitive and deep down we all know that too. If they were, my cow dog would not wallow in every piece of road kill he finds, he wouldn't eat cat turds off of the ground and he wouldn't eat his own puke.

 

And as much as I love my dog, if he bit me or anyone else without cause I'd blow his brains out.

[Trandoshan]

@Kendo

Noted. Kill-Joy...

 

the example used was wrong anyways. Pavlov's dogs experimented with something totally different. You could have bashed my theorem in the wall.

 

---- On Topic----

If you are really concerned about animal cruelty, I'd suggest you address the issue of the export of live animals for slaughter and not hunting. I speak of someone who has actively picketed Plymouth's Millbay Docks in that cause, ie anti live export. After all, meat requires hanging before you eat it.

 

Let's address that then!

 

Most of us have seen those movies that show us how our food is handled before it arrives to our mouthes. It's quite disgusting, but in order for America to eat like it does, it is a necessary evil. We, as 'Mericans, have to eat three times more than we need to, or have lower prices at the expense of the animals right to the hunt. The Nited States of Merica has no care about where his food comes from as long as his belly is full. This is animal manslaughter at the greatest level. I remember hearing about the abuse of chicken... They would throw the animals against the wall before killing them. Chicklettes would be put onto conveyor belts, and be shipped to the nearest McNugget Factory. Cows would be hung by their feet, and be conveyed in a little line towards a blade that would slit their throats.

 

Dunno bout you guys, but I can't fathom this. I guess when the aliens come to harvest us for food, we will all see what it feels like to see a blade closing in on our throats. Since the animal does not have intelligence like we do, I guess it's safe to say that they never saw it commin! :yes:

 

Seriously though... Hircine, would be very dissappointed with America.

[Kendo 2]

@Kendo

Noted. Kill-Joy...

 

:biggrin: I'm sorry, holmes. Kill-Joy. :biggrin:

[ginnyfizz]

@Kendo

Noted. Kill-Joy...

 

the example used was wrong anyways. Pavlov's dogs experimented with something totally different. You could have bashed my theorem in the wall.

 

---- On Topic----

If you are really concerned about animal cruelty, I'd suggest you address the issue of the export of live animals for slaughter and not hunting. I speak of someone who has actively picketed Plymouth's Millbay Docks in that cause, ie anti live export. After all, meat requires hanging before you eat it.

 

Let's address that then!

 

Most of us have seen those movies that show us how our food is handled before it arrives to our mouthes. It's quite disgusting, but in order for America to eat like it does, it is a necessary evil. We, as 'Mericans, have to eat three times more than we need to, or have lower prices at the expense of the animals right to the hunt. The Nited States of Merica has no care about where his food comes from as long as his belly is full. This is animal manslaughter at the greatest level. I remember hearing about the abuse of chicken... They would throw the animals against the wall before killing them. Chicklettes would be put onto conveyor belts, and be shipped to the nearest McNugget Factory. Cows would be hung by their feet, and be conveyed in a little line towards a blade that would slit their throats.

 

Dunno bout you guys, but I can't fathom this. I guess when the aliens come to harvest us for food, we will all see what it feels like to see a blade closing in on our throats. Since the animal does not have intelligence like we do, I guess it's safe to say that they never saw it commin! :yes:

 

Seriously though... Hircine, would be very dissappointed with America.

 

 

Errr...the Plymouth I mentioned is in Devon, England, and I was campaigning against animals being taken packed alive into multi deck lorries for sometimes thousands of miles across Europe, without stopping for food and water, and sometimes dying very horribly before even reaching the butchers. You totally missed my point.

 

And cattle normally get banged on the head with a bolt gun before getting strung up and throats slit, although not in kosher or halal butchering.

[Fifoo]

@ginnyfizz : hmm... an other level of what we - the so called "human beings" - are capable in such ugly things.

 

 

... funny to see that nobody has given yet a mention on what's really goes on with all that stuff, something that makes a big difference between "animals" and us, "human beings".

 

Do you all really think it's intelligence ? Or instinct ? Maybe, but it's not the most important in my opinion : what do you think about the biggest rule that makes our civilization so "brilliant", and in some way leads our way of life ?

 

Did you ever heard about "business" and the "king money" ?

 

A good example here, just for staying on topic, as we could find plenty of them :

 

Too many people are taking profit with contraband animals, stereotyped needs and all the in thing... without to consider what is dangerous or not, or without thinking about dramatical consequencies for humans - and animals - on both sides.

 

Those people are condemnable !

 

 

"Our earth relies on a balance in which every being has a role to play

and exists only through the existence of an other being.

A settled fragil harmony that is easily shattered."

- Yann Arthus-Bertrand.

[Trandoshan]

@Kendo

Noted. Kill-Joy...

 

the example used was wrong anyways. Pavlov's dogs experimented with something totally different. You could have bashed my theorem in the wall.

 

---- On Topic----

If you are really concerned about animal cruelty, I'd suggest you address the issue of the export of live animals for slaughter and not hunting. I speak of someone who has actively picketed Plymouth's Millbay Docks in that cause, ie anti live export. After all, meat requires hanging before you eat it.

 

Let's address that then!

 

Most of us have seen those movies that show us how our food is handled before it arrives to our mouthes. It's quite disgusting, but in order for America to eat like it does, it is a necessary evil. We, as 'Mericans, have to eat three times more than we need to, or have lower prices at the expense of the animals right to the hunt. The Nited States of Merica has no care about where his food comes from as long as his belly is full. This is animal manslaughter at the greatest level. I remember hearing about the abuse of chicken... They would throw the animals against the wall before killing them. Chicklettes would be put onto conveyor belts, and be shipped to the nearest McNugget Factory. Cows would be hung by their feet, and be conveyed in a little line towards a blade that would slit their throats.

 

Dunno bout you guys, but I can't fathom this. I guess when the aliens come to harvest us for food, we will all see what it feels like to see a blade closing in on our throats. Since the animal does not have intelligence like we do, I guess it's safe to say that they never saw it commin! :yes:

 

Seriously though... Hircine, would be very dissappointed with America.

 

 

Errr...the Plymouth I mentioned is in Devon, England, and I was campaigning against animals being taken packed alive into multi deck lorries for sometimes thousands of miles across Europe, without stopping for food and water, and sometimes dying very horribly before even reaching the butchers. You totally missed my point.

 

And cattle normally get banged on the head with a bolt gun before getting strung up and throats slit, although not in kosher or halal butchering.

 

I will use less sarcasm from here on out. I don't want to be the forum idiot. I'm a very dull person in real life, actually. I have always used sarcasm on every board I go to. I seem to make a lot of enemies too because of it.

 

True, Plymouth is in England. True, you campaigned against animals being packed alive. You don't think this 'sort' of abuse happens in America? Sure, throwing poultry against a wall while they are still living and then being humanely killed 'after the fact' is different than packing animals inhumanely for long periods of time, but the point still stands. What the point (and you can correct me if I didn't hit the nail on the head) is, is that these food processing companies do some nasty things to the live-stalk that are reprehensible.

 

I personally did not want to offend any other cultures than my own, so I used America as an example. I used the sarcasm for a laugh, and tried to compare my experience on the subject with yours (Yours was more interesting, no doubt. However, I just wanted to jump in somewhere).

 

Sill interesting. Sorry if I truly did misunderstand.

[Kendo 2]

Well, since this thread is headed towards something I don't want to get into I'll be bowing out.

 

Ginnyfizz is right about being in control when dealing with stock. If you're not 100% confident and on top of your game a horse will take charge and if it has a mind to, it will kill or seriously injure you. I've seen that first hand.

 

As far as cruelty to stock on the way to slaughter goes, I've seen that first hand too and there are a few sale barns I refuse to deal with. They'll never see me darken their doors again. When I went to report them to the Cattle Raisers Association (and I always do) I found out one of them wasn't even a member. Yes, there needs to be reform so crap like that will stop. Fortunately the Association has crimewatch and when abuse is reported an officer from Austin will go out and investigate.

 

There is a dumb misconception that cattlemen are cruel. Well that varies from individual to individual and you can't cast all cowboys as villians. For most people, the closest they've ever been to a #2 beef steer is standing in line at McDonalds. They have no idea as to what it takes or the HARD short life cowboys live.

 

*A branch of my family has been in Texas in form or another since 1820. Chapley Denman scouted the Brazos and Colorado River Valleys and he was here to greet Stephen F. Austin when he arrived with the first 300 familes. One of my ancestors on my father's side was an original Texas Ranger. We have Denman's original survey maps and his Mexican land grant signed by Santa Anna framed in our den. We have heritage and popping brush is a big part of it. I don't appreciate having my way of life being questioned any more than high-minded urbanites like theirs being questioned. It ain't right to do that.

 

If I've offended anyone I'm sorry. ;)

 

@Trandoshan

none of this is directed at you :)

[Maigrets]

The example of the horse that can't be broken is a testament to this. Punishing a beast that doesn't understand why it's being beaten or dominated for not conforming is hardly superior. I champion the animal for not allowing it's spirit to be broken, even if it dies in the process. It still won't have understood why, but will be proof of human failing. My father was like this and it did him no good in the end. Of his worst character flaws mental and physical domination was the worst. It's ugly and damaging to everyone concerned and I saw first hand the "other" side of humane treatment.

 

Maigrets, I have backed and schooled all manner of horses including some real nutjobs. The very worst are those where people have previously let them have their own way too much and not got the dominance over them. Spinal units are littered with people who didn't get mentally topside with their horses. How else can you back something that weighs half a darned ton? It sounds like you would call all people who handle and train horses evil, now I am truly sorry about your father being as he was, but do not tar all horse and stock men and women with his brush. Now how do you think a charging horse, or a steer for that matter, is going to react if you try to reason with it? Take no notice whatsoever, that's what. I have worked on both cattle farms and horse studs and believe me, you DO have to exert control. Otherwise multiple instances of equines and bovines could be doing damage to other people. Although I guess they don't matter. Tell that to the farmers in the UK who have been prosecuted for running cattle on their own land, ramblers take a walk over it, their doggy annoys the cows and the cows rampage (since they have calves)and then trample the ramblers to death. BTW the farmer would get prosecuted if they closed the footpaths as well.

 

Countrymen and women can't win on this it seems. A favourite pastime of mine, hunting live quarry with dogs, got banned ostensibly on cruelty grounds, but in actual fact on reverse snobbery grounds by our Labour Government. Since which time, the illegal snares and leghold traps have made a comeback. Much more drawn out than being torn to pieces by a pack of hounds. Mind you, some very naughty chickens actually attacked and killed a fox that invaded their coop the other night. All hail Dude the cockerel and his four lady friends....

Ginnyfizz you know nothing at all about me and most of all that I'm not a city person born or bred and I don't live in a city now. I lived on sheep and cattle stations most of the early part of my life, handling cattle and horses. I also have had plenty of experience with horses, good tempered and otherwise as well as my share of injuries.

 

The question here is about cruelty which you described as an enjoyable past time. Just because others do it doesn't justify your involvement and yes, those other incidents must be investigated and stopped, but I can't see that happening any time soon.

Countrymen and women can't win on this it seems. A favourite pastime of mine, hunting live quarry with dogs, got banned ostensibly on cruelty grounds, but in actual fact on reverse snobbery grounds by our Labour Government. Since which time, the illegal snares and leghold traps have made a comebackMuch more drawn out than being torn to pieces by a pack of hounds.

Admirably demonstrating man's fascination with blood, pain and suffering. As long as it's happening to someone or something else. It's one thing to make a clean shot to kill for food and shelter, it's another to allow a pack of dogs to tear apart a creature that has no defense. The dogs are doing what comes naturally to them albeit it encouraged by people.

Much like greyhound racing in the past where the dogs were set to chase a live rabbit or other small live animal and then tear it to bits. Trained by people again to exploit their natural hunting instinct. Thankfully it's now banned here at least in public view.

 

Steel jawed rabbit traps and other snares were banned here a number of years ago starting in the 1970's up until the 90', especially in National Parks. These traps don't discriminate between rabbits and native wildlife and I can only imagine the awful lingering death from starvation, predation by other animals, and pain caused by them. I've seen the results first hand, so I'm speaking from actual experience not something I read somewhere.

Banning them doesn't stop them from being used. Many house pets have been trapped this way because they were a nuisance to someone and out bush who is going to police it anyway.

 

I've seen my share of spinal injuries as well since I was a nurse for over 30 years.

Spinal units are littered with people who didn't get mentally topside with their horses.

In this country spinal units are filled with people whose cause of injury was from playing contact sports ie football, car crashes, work injury and general stupidity as caused by accidents with horses or cattle.

However, for those unfortunate enough to have been injured in horse related accidents...it's a sport or past time they "chose" to engage in just like football or driving a car. Just as dangerous, but a choice and blaming the tools ie car, horse, shallow water after diving accidents is next to useless, but human nature.

 

Now how do you think a charging horse, or a steer for that matter, is going to react if you try to reason with it?

Case in point. You can't reason with it since it's angry, doesn't understand English or any other human language and yes, it's much larger than us. The issue is trying to reason with it in the first place if it's intractable...doesn't that answer the question?

Man can't reason with or dominate a beast that weighs tons more than him or herself so they label the beast as the problem when it reacts badly according to our rules.

 

In the News around the world today, in Texas, a side show with a red kangaroo being made to fight a clown. In fact two kangaroos.

 

A full grown red kangaroo can be over six feet tall and if threatened can disembowel a man in seconds with it's hind feet. This animal is goaded into "boxing" by being prodded, restrained, poked and more. I wouldn't be surprised if it was drugged because it certainly doesn't look as active as it should be.

 

What do you think would happen if it managed to sit back on it's tail long enough to bring it's hind legs into action and killed the man? Who or what would be blamed? I can tell you right now.

 

Due to past violations of animal cruelty this promoter has been made to remove the act. The fate of the kangaroo, which isn't the first to be used by this promoter, can be left to the imagination.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/nationa...o-1225837523271

 

And yes, I'm quite aware our national mascot is used for food and culled on a regular basis to protect farmers fences and crops. There's another example of hypocrisy.

 

I can't see the point in continuing discussion either.

And to clarify that, I'm not singling out anyone here, but people in general with single minded attitudes to being human (and humane) and whether any other living thing has rights or not. Which then leads to a topic that can't be discussed on this forum for obvious reasons and is outlined in the Rules.

 

However, I don't apologize for caring about the wider picture and the future of this planet. Unfortunately, the people who would like to continue to live on a viable and sustainable planet are vastly outnumbered by the rest whose greed and primitive need to destroy blind them to their actions.

I'm not a raving "greenie" as I've heard people who care about conservation described, or a scientist, but I am a realist and the reality is future generations won't be as lucky as most of the world's population is today. In most Western countries at least.

 

If anyone thinks they have it hard now, wait a few years and see how things change. It probably won't take that long really.