LadyMizra Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 So, I'm a newb to this fandom, but I just finished my first playthrough of Dragon Age Origins, and had some thoughts on Loghain that, while you guys probably have heard, I wanted to put out there. Firstly, it's a given that Loghain cared about Maric. I haven't read the books yet, but I hear he rescued Maric, and all that jazz. (Did read some Loghain Maric slash fiction though, don't judge <_<). So, I think he did care about Cailan. Loghain helped raise him, and before the battle of Ostagar, all his yelling at the king was more like an old married couple than any actual hate. But, as much as I like Cailan, he was a bad ruler. And Loghain knew this. He seemed to be trying to help him. Loghain was a smart, experienced man. He would probably have a good educated guess at whether the battle was a lost cause. From what I understand, he didn't want Cailan in the front lines at all, because well, that's stupid. He's a king, he has responsibilies, like staying alive. The battle was foolish, Cailan was a horrible general, that died of his own foolishness. It's sad, I liked him. He was funny. But not fit to rule. Loghain probably knew that even if he sent his men in, the battle was likely to fail. All his efforts to force Cailan to follow a better plan, were for nothing. And of course, he invited the Orlesians in to fight. Now at first, I was like, why does that matter? Loghain just hates them, has a vendetta. But Fereldan had only been fere of the Orlesian's rule for 30 years. And Cailan was inviting their -troops- in. Now, before I learned about how these people were, I would have said, nah it doesn't matter, the blight is more important. But we learn from Lelianna just how scheming and manipulative they are. It is not wise to invite people like that in, and Cailan didn't need to. He could have gotten forces from Arl Eamon, but didn't, because he wanted all the glory for himself. As for the Grey Wardens. Loghain didn't know much about the,, except all the fancy tales, making them out to be big bad heroes and such. Cailan already had a hero complex, and Loghain only saw Duncan making it much worse. If Duncan, or the Grey Warden's in general had been honest from the start about why Grey Wardens were needed, etc, maybe Loghain would have thought of them, at least, a nessesary evil. But Loghain didn't know that you needed Grey Warden's to kill an archdemon, (or Mori's dark ritual, which I picked, but the Grey Warden's didn't seem to know about it). If Loghain had? His actions may have been a little different, at least with how he dealt with them after Ostagar. So, I think Loghain was sad that Cailan died. He was sad that he had to retreat. In his mind, retreat was the only viable option, to save his menfrom being slaughters. It was a lost cause to him. And we aren't told, but I think it might have been for real. Cailan had a big army, but they were slaughtered. Would Loghain's have made that much of a difference? Loghain probably assumed Cailan would die anyway, but probably assumed it was the better strategic move to save his men for later. Even if they won this battle, it wouldn't matter if most of them were killed. They had more battles to fight. I think Loghain was genuinely upset over Cailan's death, even though he thought the man a fool for a king. So, who was Loghain supposed to blame? It's natural for us to put blame somewhere, and the Grey Warden's were a perfect target. He blamed Duncan for putting foolish notions in his head, and while Duncan may or may not have helped (Cailan was pretty far gone, wouldn't listen to Duncan's advice either), who else could he blame? He didn't know why the Grey Warden's were needed. It was the Grey Warden's own fault, in my opinion, for some of the bad treatment they get. If they had been truthful about themselves from the start (They had been through 4 blights before this, pretty sure they had time to say hey, us heroes who just saved you have to drink blood, etc). Crazy, awful things get accepted into cultures all the time, and while drinking blood isn't evil, (just sucks because of reduced lifespan) I think honesty would have served them better. People would still volunteer, people engage in self-sacrifice all the time. I just think the Grey Warden's put a lot of hostility on themselves for their secretive nature. You can't blame Duncan for all of that, because he was probably taught the same s#*!, but it's a point to make. But, Duncan is a topic for another time. Anyway, in short, I think Loghain's act of retreat was not that bad. I think him going after the Grey Warden's made sense because he had no one else to blame for Cailan's foolishness, even though logically they weren't to blame. I think Loghain had a point in not wanting Orlesian help. (Like, if the USA enslaved Mexico, and then 30 years after their independence, invited US soldiers into the land? Would be stupid.) Though Loghain did engage in some other bad things later, it was no different than Duncan's acts either. Duncan, the Grey Warden's, were all about ends justifies the means. While I don't agree with that, it doesn't make Loghain worse than them. He was doing it all for Ferelden. I did kill Loghain on my playthrough, but only because I wanted Alistair to be king. Didn't want him running off, or being forced to marry Anora (me no likey her, noooo). But I plan to keep him alive on the next runthrough. Anyway, that was long, but yeah. My thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeschylusShepherd Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 ** SPOILERS! ** If you are going to do another run through with making Loghain a warden then I would advise you to harden Alistair and have him marry Anora. This is the best way to save Alistair, he will hate you and you will destroy anything you had with him as a friend or otherwise..but honestly it is better than the alternative. Alistair is a good man and he does not deserve to be betrayed, so to me this is the best option for you. If you do not do that then you will have effectively destroyed Alistair if you allow Loghain to live. Also you need arrange their marriage with Anora before the Landsmeet, otherwise she will not agree to marry him and want him killed to prevent him or anyone else raising an army in his name against her. I could not in my heart do that to Alistair. To allow Anora kill Alistair or to destroy Alistair, no this will never happen in my play through. Alistair and I have been through hell and back and to turn on him at the end felt wrong, IMHO. You will also need to make sure you cover all your bases where the entire Landsmeet to be on your side, this will also prevent Anora changing her mind. Anora will turn on you if you do not make arrangements with her first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheObstinateNoviceSmith Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 So, I think he did care about Cailan. Loghain helped raise him, and before the battle of Ostagar, all his yelling at the king was more like an old married couple than any actual hate. Loghain smiled when he betrayed Cailan. That being said, I can't agree with a great deal you said regarding him, his feelings, and or his motives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenAngelHeart Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Anyway, in short, I think Loghain's act of retreat was not that bad. I think him going after the Grey Warden's made sense because he had no one else to blame for Cailan's foolishness, even though logically they weren't to blame. I think Loghain had a point in not wanting Orlesian help. Not bad? Loghain was insane. Rather than using any sensible thought, Loghain disagreed so much with Cailan's attempt at peace between Ferelden and Orlais that he went so far as turning his back on everyone during the battle of Ostagar.It was done on purpose. He blamed the Wardens and hired a crow assassin to kill them just to cover up his crime. He even went so far as to imprison Riordan, who was a fellow Ferelden.His hand was in the proverbial "cookie jar" when Highever Castle was attacked by Arl Howe and on top of that he sent an apostate blood mage to poison Arl Eamon. How is any of that justified? ** SPOILERS! ** I could not in my heart do that to Alistair. To allow Anora kill Alistair or to destroy Alistair, no this will never happen in my play through. Alistair and I have been through hell and back and to turn on him at the end felt wrong, IMHO. I'm with you fully, 100% on this one. There is no way I would ever betray Alistair by rewarding Loghain for his crimes and making him a Grey Warden. I always choose Alistair to duel Loghain at the Landsmeet so he can very thoroughly seperate Loghain's head from his shoulders without any prompting from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fylimar Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Anyway, in short, I think Loghain's act of retreat was not that bad. I think him going after the Grey Warden's made sense because he had no one else to blame for Cailan's foolishness, even though logically they weren't to blame. I think Loghain had a point in not wanting Orlesian help. Not bad? Loghain was insane. Rather than using any sensible thought, Loghain disagreed so much with Cailan's attempt at peace between Ferelden and Orlais that he went so far as turning his back on everyone during the battle of Ostagar.It was done on purpose. He blamed the Wardens and hired a crow assassin to kill them just to cover up his crime. He even went so far as to imprison Riordan, who was a fellow Ferelden.His hand was in the proverbial "cookie jar" when Highever Castle was attacked by Arl Howe and on top of that he sent an apostate blood mage to poison Arl Eamon. How is any of that justified? This and let's not forget, that Loghain sold elves as slaves, which for me is his most evil deed. I had him in my group before, but when I played a City elf and stumbled about the quest at the Alienage of Denerim, where you find out at the end, that Loghain sold your own father into slavery, he died every time after that. And I have a very low opinion of King Cailan, too and am not that fond of Alistair, but selling people into slavery was the final straw for me, after that, there was simply no arguing for me about Loghains motives any more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagdalenaDwojniak Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 This and let's not forget, that Loghain sold elves as slaves, which for me is his most evil deed. I had him in my group before, but when I played a City elf and stumbled about the quest at the Alienage of Denerim, where you find out at the end, that Loghain sold your own father into slavery, he died every time after that. And I have a very low opinion of King Cailan, too and am not that fond of Alistair, but selling people into slavery was the final straw for me, after that, there was simply no arguing for me about Loghains motives any more Definitely. I don't think Loghain would ever deserve to become a Grey Warden. They're supposed to be honorable and his actions have all been ambiguous at best (in the city elf walkthrough, it becomes obvious - with the slavers). Moreover, they are tolerant - unlike Loghain, who utterly despises the Orlesians, seems to hate elves (not sure about dwarves, but he seems very racist, can't help it). I think that, with Grey Warden skills, he could become too dangerous. I don't like the fact you basically have to lower yourself to his level by executing him (because otherwise Anora won't marry Alistair and he is not really fit to rule on his own with Thedas jumping from one carnage to another), but other choices are worse. A mod like this suggestion would be good, because there is really no truly good ending for him. One which would hold obvious value, that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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