DRM Software 2

[XJDHDR]

I recently found this topic on this forum: DRM Software. Have they gone too far? What shocked me about that topic is how opiniated the issue of DRM has become (even amongst our moderaters, it seems). Since the above topic was locked before I could say anything, I will use this post to reply to the people in the other topic and hopefully give everyone some new information.

 

Sorry everyone. I had to start using code boxes near the end because I got a "too many quotes" error.

 

 

@Everyone

First of all, a game company is a business. And like any other business, their first priority is to make an income and improve said income in any way they can. Therefore, it is not logical to think that a game company would do things (eg DRM) that would jeporadise their income (since that would go against their foundation principles).

 

There also seems to be the mis-conception that you own a game once you buy it. That is not the case, however. At all times, it is the game publisher/creater that owns the game, not the end user. What you are actually buying from the company is a license to play that game, not the game itself. This is all in the game's Terms & Conditions which you have to agree to before you can install the game. I can imagine that most people just click on I accept without reading more than a sentence.

 

For some more real info on this issue, you can read these two articles:

PC Game Piracy Examined

Assassin's Creed 2 DRM

 

A number of times in this post, I will mention how you shouldn't buy the game. What I am trying to say is that if lots of people don't like the feature you are complaining about and choose not to buy the game, the game company will see this and amend their agreement to try improve their income again. If they don't do this, it is highly likely that the problem is actually your expectations and that you should probably change them. Games are a luxury item and you do not need to play them to survive.

 

 

Rixirite

Lets take a look at what DRM can do to your gaming experience:

 

1. Requires continuous online connection to play (Many new titles including UbiSoft ones use this.)

2. Limits the number of installs per a copy (Spore is famous for this issue.)

3. Requires log in to a master server (Dawn of War 2 uses this method.)

4. Requires third party platform to launch the game (Steam is a good example of this.)

5. Can completely stop the game if you lose internet connection (Assassin's Creed 2 is supposed to implement this.)

1. Since most PC gamers already have a continuously online connection, what is the problem? Those that don't shouldn't have a copy of the game to begin with (for reasons I will explain later).

2. There has always been a limit to the number of copies you could install. I remember a game I bought 9 years ago called Pharaoh. This is in the Terms & Conditions (though I don't have the exact words): You may install and use this game on only 1 PC at a time. If you have a laptop, you may install an additional copy on that as well but that's it. Also, you may not use the PC and laptop copy at the same time. The only difference between now and then is that game companies have become better at enforcing that rule. In fact, companies that give a license to install on multiple PCs or (shudder) an unlimited number are actually giving you a priviledge so be grateful instead of complaining.

3. What the hell is wrong with having to log in to a server? It adds maybe 10 seconds to the game's loading time (less if you auto-login). Considering the amount of time it already takes to start and load a save, less than 10 seconds is negligible.

4. Steam is not just a DRM system. It a save manager, game shopping, auto patcher, launchpad, etc. It is possible to start a game without having to open the Steam window (read the documentation) though Steam needs to be open to start the game. Also, Steam uses a neglibible amount of background resources. So what exactly is the problem?

5. You can thank the pirates for that. Without them, the DRM (and hence, game lockouts) wouldn't exist to begin with.

 

Rixirite

As you can see, these five issues can sever your game if something is to go wrong. Here are some examples of what ifs that can happen:

 

1. You cannot log into a third-party platform due to connection issues. (Happens to me with steam ALL the time.)

2. You install a game 3 times in the course of 12 months to figure out your disc has become useless. (Spore has this problem, and Bioshock 2 as well.)

3. You cannot connect to the master server for unknown reason to play a single-player game. (Dawn of War 2 has shown these problems.)

4. You buy a game retail to find out it installs through a third-party platform. (Empire: Total War installed steam instead of the game!)

5. Your neighborhood has experienced a nasty storm that wiped out internet connection rendering your game unplayable. (Assassin's Creed 2 does exactly this.)

1. Valid point. Just don't buy Steam games in future if you always have a problem with them. If you choose to put up with those problems instead, then don't complain.

2. I've already said that previous games only allowed 1 installation. Mass Effect also has this feature. However, the documentation clearly says that if you are online when the game is uninstalled, you get an installation license back to use again. If you aren't online at the time, you can later use their license revoke tool available from their website. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Spore and Bioshock 2 also has something similar to this.

3. Not sure about DOW2 but this happened to Assasin's Creed 2 and Silent Hunter 5 as well. The reason for these two is that pirates were attacking the servers, preventing some users from logging in. So thank the pirates. If the problem is bad management though, simply don't buy any of Relic Entertainment/THQ's games until they clean up their act. If you choose to put up with those problems instead, then don't complain.

4. The Empire: Total War's box clearly says that Steam is a requirement to install the game. Game companies have to, by law, note ALL the game's requirements on the box or website before you purchase the game. It is not their fault that you didn't read.

5. I have been through a number of storms and only a few have managed to knock something out (it was always the electricity though). So you experienced a storm that knocked out your internet (and telephone?) but not the electricity. That would be a rare occurence that game companies are not expected to account for. Blame your ISP for the inability to play games, not the game company.

 

Rixirite

...derails the whole aspect that you have complete control over your product that you paid for. When I got Spore when it first came out I was angry at the DRM SecuROM for turning my retail disc into a coffee mug coaster. The game had so much potential but I wasn't about to go buy another copy of a game I already own. So DRM in my opinion has a nasty effect on the consumer who buys the product and basically owns it.

You never had control over the game to begin with. It is the game company that owns the game and controls the license you purchased. Read Spore's documentation and visit the website to find the license revoke tool I mentioned earlier.

 

Shoren

For me single-player games should be able to be played OFFLINE without needing internet. Having you to log in to some server or otherwise verify that you are ONLINE defeats the whole point of single-player games. Well not their actual point but why should a single player game need internet?

Maybe but unfortunately, piracy has progressed to the stage where offline methods of preventing piracy don't work anymore. You can thank the pirates for that.

 

Shoren

Also games should be able to install as many times as person wants after all they paid for the game in the first place.

That is not your call to make. It is the decision of the company that owns the game. Besides, the restriction is that you may install the game on a limited number of PCs at once. Therefore, if you uninstall a copy, you may now install that copy on another PC. If you don't like it, then don't buy the game.

 

Trandoshan

How long do you think it will take before the pirates crack this one anyways? I'm not going into detail due to Forum Rules, but they will eventually destroy this program just as they have destroyed all of the others.

 

It's only a matter of time, ... Console Games aren't effected at least.

Is a castle wall supposed to completely stop an enemy from getting in? No, they will eventually break through. Is a locked door supposed to completely stop a thief from entering your home? No, a thief will eventually find another way in. So what is the point of a lock and castle wall if they are eventually going to fail? The point is to delay them long enough to accomplish a certain goal (ally or police arrives). Therefore, the purpose of DRM is to stop the cracks long enough that the game's sales cover the costs of development. Once you realise this, the logic of DRM suddenly makes sense.

 

The only reason console games aren't affected is because it is excessively difficult to pirate software on a console. Anti-piracy measures are built into the console itself.

 

Balagor

I voted "maybe". I must admit they do this in a must annoying way, but don´t forget who is really to blame for this: THE PIRATE.

If any of you know a pirate, don´t forget to knock him/her on the head.

Hallelujah! We have a believer!

 

Aurielius

I voted yes. If I buy a game for single player use I want to be able to do so without an online component to it's use.

What exactly is wrong with your internet connection that it can't support a constant connection to the internet. Even my (uncapped, admittedly) dial-up connection here in South Africa meets that requirement. Unfortunately, piracy has progressed to the stage where offline DRM doesn't work anymore. You can thank the pirates for that.

 

Skotte

To me, it has gone to far. far enough that it has become the deciding factor in whether or not I buy a game

What is wrong with your internet connection. My dial-up in SA meets the requirement.

 

Rixirite

Apparently there is a Anti-DRM movement I forget the name of it though. It aims to have game companies drop the draconian DRM. Steam is a form of DRM software that makes sure your game is yours, and no one else can play it. While I like the idea of cutting pirates off, it cannot be done in such a way where the customers who really buy the game suffer.

That anti-DRM movement is going to fail. If using DRM means that game companies get the income that they deserve, no amount of complaints are going to make them remove it. Is something wrong with your internet connection too?

 

Rixirite

...I put the disc in all excited then steam started up and it asked for the DOW2 CD key. That made me mad.

CD keys are so common nowadays that getting angry at having to type one in is completely unreasonable. If you don't want to type in CD kays, don't buy the games that require this (that's a very long list though).

 

Rixirite

...before it gets a chance to install Steam says "Our servers are busy at the moment, please wait while they become available."! I became intolerant to this nonsense, but restained myself because I wanted to play the game.

That's just bad luck. Get over it!

 

Rixirite

...once it was done it took another 15 minutes to patch.

Read the Steam documentation. There is an option which allows you to disable auto-patching if it makes you upset. You will have had to patch the game eventually though so why not now rather than later.

 

Rixirite

I had to create a GFWL (Games For Windows Live) account in order to play the campaign! The campaign is single-player! I don't care about achievements and Cooperative gameplay, yet it required full GFWL access to play the game. The same applies to skirmishes when I want to fight AI.

This is to cater to the majority of gamers who do want achievements and/or cooperative play. I do agree that there should be an option to make this optional though (like Fallout 3). Also, a GFWL account can be used with any additional GFWL games you purchase in future so it is a one-time procedure. Even better is that if you do your email through Hotmail (and a few other Microsoft services), you already have a GFWL account.

 

Rixirite

...wanted a refund but I can't do that because I installed it through steam therefore you cannot "return" a digital copy. 

Simple, don't purchase digital copies in future. Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if you are, in fact, allowed to return digital copies but you simply haven't read about it.

 

Jim_uk

I refuse to buy any single player game that requires an internet connection to play, when I buy a product I shouldn't have to ask permission to use the thing. Ubisoft and now EA are on my "avoid" list, I'm sick and tired of being punished for buying games while pirates enjoy them with none of the issues we face.

You live in the UK. What is wrong with your connection that it can't handle being constantly connected? Are you saying that my expensive slow South African internet is better than yours? Also, where exactly are you required to gain permission to play the game. Buying the game license is where you gain the permission to play.

 

Pirates don't have problems with DRM but they get a whole slurry of new problems that legitimate owners don't have. Besides instablity and the risk of malware, people that pirate AC2 can't get any missions and also get a white-screen-of-death error. So what would you rather have? A simple DRM that requires you to login to a server while you play a game? Or an hour or so of no mission followed by a white screen error? Your choice.

 

Bben46

Ubisoft will be blaming the pirates for their reduced sales instead of their inane DRM...And many others who would have bought a legal copy will now become pirates just to play a game they would have been happy to pay for. The pirates are going to find a way to steal it no matter what. This just penalizes the legitimate purchaser. 

I have done the research. I have read so many sources of information. The global average is that for every legitimate copy of a PC game installed, there are 6 or 7 pirated copies installed elsewhere. It is clear that it is piracy, not DRM that is causing a loss of sales. And these figures existed even before these intrusive DRM were introduced. So it is clear that this DRM was only created because the game companies are losing so much money to piracy. Also take note of what I said earlier, it is not logical to assume that a company would make decisions that causes them to lose profits.

 

One of the articles I mentioned above mentions that games with no DRM are pirated even more heavily than games that do have DRM. Therein lies the logic with DRM. Compare DRM to a castle wall or locked door, not an immovable rock. And now that I think of it, if your internet connection can't handle the small amount of bandwidth required to be online while you play a game, how is it going to handle the enormous bandwidth required to download a pirated copy of a game. Reading your post, I think you DESPERATELY need to read the articles I linked to.

 

Evilneko

Of course. That's their plan...Nevermind the fact that sales are actually increasing, or that the pirates actually buy MORE: a not-insignificant number of "pirates" actually buy the stuff they like, and are more likely to buy future games from the same developer.

...not logical to assume they make business decisions that reduce profit. The reason sales are increasing is because people that would have pirated the game got tired of waiting for a crack and bought it instead. That is the reason DRM works. I have done the research and I do not believe that "pirates buy more" statement for even one second. The VAST majority of pirates download software so that they can have a copy of it, not to demo-test it before buying the legitimate version. That's just piracy propaganda to make it look better than it actually is. The biggest reason they would choose not to pirate future software is because they can't find a pirated version of it.

 

If you don't have anything to hide, there is no reason to be scared of ACTA. In fact, I think that we probably deserve it considering the issues that ACTA is supposed to address. I do, however, agree that charging money for a demo is an unfair move. EA probably wouldn't need to charge money if piracy wasn't eating away at their sales though.

 

AlienSlof

But these companies punish the legit people who buy the game for it.

Would you buy a car and then have to check in with the dealer each time you wanted to drive it? No, you wouldn't. So why should gamers? Honest people are being punished for other people's mis-deeds.

You can thank the pirates for that. Without pirates, there would be no need for DRM. Is it unreasonable for someone to protect their investments? As for the car example, the difference here is that it is infinitely easier to prevent cars from being stolen from a factory than it is to prevent software piracy. Also, there are already effective measures in place that can recover stolen cars, unlike software. Therefore, car companies do not need intrusi

 

AlienSlof

It will encourage piracy instead of defeat it. Hell, you can't even re-sell some of these games now, due to accounts being tied to them.

That goes against everything I've researched. You can't resell these games because it means less sales for the game company. Unfair but that's how it is, unfortunately. At least Steam allows you to return games for a discount on another game they have.

 

Balagor

I personally think that the gaming compagnies should give up DRM, and I think we also need a GREAT change of moral amongst certaint people in society.

The last time I saw a game company give up using DRM (ie Ubisoft with Prince of Persia), the game was massively pirated and very few sales of the game were made. In fact, from it's release date up to now, POP has only managed just over 2 million sales. The DRM-heavy AC2 made more than half that figure in it's first week.

 

When we change our moral values, game companies will remove DRM. We can't expect them to remove it before that though because pirates will only take advantage of it.

 

AlienSlof

I won't be punished for someone else's criminal activity. I bought AvP recently, but when it arrived, I found out that it required Steam. If I wanted Steam, I would have it installed already and bought the game through it. A game on a disc should NOT require a 3rd party application to run.

That is just an unreasonable request for the reasons I mentioned above. Is there something wrong with your internet too? Thanks to DRM, they lost a few customers and gained a whole lot more who would have pirated the game had a crack been released in time.

 

MonsterHunterMaster

and I can't play it cuz my internet stick has a problem and so the internet on my computer isn't working. So I can't install modern warfare 2 cuz steam isn't working

Simple. You shouldn't have bought the steam version. If your internet isn't working, then get it fixed. It's not Infinity Ward/Activision/Valve's fault your internet is out of action.

 

Shoren

...but what Balagor said is true for the worst of us, of the pirates. Actually most of the pirates (like me for example) download games so we can test their full potential without any limits which demo places and if we like it we buy it. If not we'll just delete it. Simple.

You've been banned but anyway. Correction: you (maybe). Pirating something to demo-test it is one of the oldest excuses in the book. The reason demos exist is so that you can test the program's capabilities and see if it suits you. If the demo isn't satisfactory, then look for a review on the product. If you're still not satisfied, make sure there is a money-back guarantee then buy it. If you don't like it, then simly return it for a refund. That is the correct way to test a product, not pirating it then hopefully going out to buy the legal version.

 

Once you have a pirated version of some software, there is almost nothing stopping you from keeping it instead of buying the legal version. It is for that reason that the vast majority of pirates never buy the legal version of the software they use. And logically speaking, why would a game company go to great expenses and risk losing sales and gaining a bad public opinion if most of the people who pirate their software are simply demo-testing it and are going to buy it in the future. They are basically going to lose profit, which goes against their business principles.

 

That's the thing about piracy. You can make all the excuses and justifications you want but at the end of the day, these excuses topple like dominoes when they are examined and they end up being just cover stories to justify their selfish greed. Anyway, I hope this long post gives everyone some real insight into the topic at hand.

[MonsterHunterMaster]

Simple. You shouldn't have bought the steam version. If your internet isn't working, then get it fixed. It's not Infinity Ward/Activision/Valve's fault your internet is out of action.

 

But it is their fault if I wouldn't have internet, I never heard of a non-steam version of the game, so a lotta people aren't able to play it.

Also, remember, discussions about piracy aren't allowed here!

[XJDHDR]

"But it is their fault if I wouldn't have internet,"

I'm not sure what meaning you are trying to convey in this sentence. If your internet connection is not working, that is not the game companies' fault. It is your ISP's fault. Instead of complaining about how game developers shouldn't do these things, just go over to your ISP and get your internet problems fixed. That is the more productive way to handle the situation.

 

After some reading, I guess you are correct. Every version of MW2 seems to require Steam to play. But still, you're the one who brought MW2 into your house therefore you're the one who decided to take the risk of playing a game that required an internet connection to play.

 

Finally, this is not a piracy discussion topic, this is a DRM discussion topic. I only brought the issue of piracy into my post because the entire reason DRM exists is because piracy exists. If I'm not allowed to point that out, then it is impossible to make an argument in support of DRM. Besides, piracy was mentioned a number of times in the previous topic with at least three moderaters visiting it and the topic only get locked when someone actually admitted that they were a pirate. If I did or said something inappropriate in the OP though, then I apologise.

[AlienSlof]

The last topic was locked for a reason. Same now with this one. Don't make another.

 

AS

[Vagrant0]

Just to clarify about the reason why the previous thread was closed.

 

1. As this is a forum of gamers, there didn't seem to be anyone who wished to express that excessive DRM is a good thing. Almost everyone who posted in the same thread had almost the same general opinion; "DRM is bad, and companies that use this sort of model are only encouraging Piracy or loss of sales".

 

2. Nobody on this forum, as far as I know, is in a position where they can change the decisions of the mentioned companies, and even if they were, the company would likely keep doing what they're doing because they've sunk so much money into buying the software on the promise that it will help their failing sales. These companies don't listen to logic, they don't listen to the consumer, they only listen to the marketing guys that make excuses.

 

3. The discussion turned into one which framed Piracy as being an acceptable solution to the problem, both for paying customers and non. Discussion of Piracy is not allowed on these forums, and ultimately is still part of the problem. Downloading a DRM laden game instead of buying it will only serve to prove the game companies right about their customers being criminals and worthy of being treated in that light.

 

4. Right or wrong, the only thing you can do about it is to just refuse to buy or play that game entirely. If you feel strongly about this, don't give in a week later once you've seen some good promotions. Instead, tell your friends about this stuff, tell everyone you have contact with on social networking sites, and get them to join the boycott. Hit these companies where it hurts, in the pocketbook and in the public relations department.

 

There really isn't anything to debate here, which is why this topic is closed.

[bben46]

For a very good unbiased study on the effect on piracy on the game industry read this: http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html

 

No cheating- read the entire thing - yes, it's long.