Boomers/BoS/Desert Rangers expanded

[dangman4ever]

@ Narmz

I think you're over-estimating the pull. At the end of the day, the Desert Rangers are pragmatists and are human. As such, the Desert Rangers with families are more than likely not going to stay in a rather volatile area especially when they have an avenue of escape via the NCR. Same issue that I posed to Qwertyzeldar: Why would these older, more experienced, and family having Desert Rangers keep their families in an area where there is still a lot of safety issues? Devinpatterson already pointed out that if the Desert Rangers were absolutely tied to the idea of "defending their homeland", they'd still be in Texas where they originated. Not to mention that this is after ten years of constant war so many of the Desert Rangers are going to be war-weary and looking forward towards more peaceful times.

Since the Desert Rangers are integrated directly into the NCR military forces, they're already getting a stable wage. With their families located deep inside California, the Desert Rangers don't have to worry too much about roving bands of raiders or Caesar's Legion remnants killing their families while they're away fighting. If the Desert Rangers had wanted to remain independent, they would not have agreed to be absorbed into the NCR military. Since there aren't many major threats in California besides the Baja area, the Desert Rangers can have a relaxed operational tempo.

You can see this with modern U.S forces. After ten years of war, many American soldiers are tired, worn out, and are ready to leave the military. Not to mention that many are not quite ready, both mentally and physically, to go back into battle. IIRC, to undo the damage done to U.S forces from ten years of constant combat, we're looking at another ten years of retraining and rehabilitation. Now imagine if these were American troops fighting a near peer force like the NCR is with the Legion? Even during WW2, after 2 years of constant ground combat, many U.S soldiers were near their breaking points at the end of it.

So even if we were to accept that the Desert Rangers have every right to leave the NCR and not be considered deserters (I'm not accepting that FYI), why would they?

Yes the Desert Rangers are only 1/3rd of your planned force but they're the ones that has the most feasibility issues that should be hashed out first.

[greenknightfury]

Boomers wise, by the time you are done with them they are loosening their xenophobia and I think they would jump for joy if introduced to say...the Gun Runners, who despite being a major faction of the NCR are more a company than an arm of the NCR, and the Gun Runners would be thrilled with them as well I'd bet.

 

 

As to the protection of the NV/Mojave Wasteland area itself, I always thought that if you did an Independent New Vegas ending minus Yes Man and the securitrons (or even with them) that recruiting a guard/military force from the populace would be a great angle, especially since it would make sense that at least some of the oldest of the Desert Ranger survivors most likely would retire and could then be recruited to train people, along with retired Rangers like the guy in Novac. With them and Boone around to train people (no matter how much I dislike Boone as a companion) you have one heck of a well trained force, with the weapon/armor stockpiles from your many victories to use to equip the force (whether those are something you just send them to collect or you pull out the tons of guns/armor you just couldn't sell because there are not enough merchants in the game) and the Gun Runners still perfectly happy to deal with your nation (and the Van Graffs if they survived) you have the makings of an army more than adequate to protect your lands, just like the Westside Militia protects Westside, but now with better gear and/or training from some major combat vets.

 

To get the BOS in on things...well they decide to patrol under the right circumstance, but are still very hardline by the Codex types, you would probably have to do a whole questline to end up getting them convinced to take a more open stance with "outsiders" and "wasteland savages", but if you could manage that with the Boomers (which are just watered down BOS really, even before the PA) then there is no reason that you might not be able to convince them, or part of them to become more Lyon's Chapter-esque, especially with what old world tech you can dangle before them. Like Cerulian Robotics, the Vaults, Houses tech (which I'd be sharing his medical tech with the Followers) and perhaps some of the oh so tantalizing Big MT. tech, which of course you can only tell them you found, and can bring them more of.

[dangman4ever]

The problem with changing the BoS to be more "open" is that it somewhat contradicts the lore in the game. Specifically the ending slides for Veronica and the BoS if you completed No Gods, No Masters:

The peace with NCR served to ease Veronica's worries about the Brotherhood's immediate future. Still, a distance had arisen between her and her fellow members that would never be bridged. She began secluding herself in crumbling libraries of the Old World, learning of promising technologies she knew the Brotherhood would never adopt.

Due to their temporary truce, the Brotherhood allowed the NCR to retreat from the Mojave Wasteland without incident. In the relative peace that followed, Brotherhood patrols appeared along major roads, harassing travelers over any bits of technology they had.

With the above ending slides and the independent ending, it shows that the BoS are still going to be hard headed and inflexible in regards to the Codex. In addition, it also shows that the BoS will end up both confiscating tech and not applying them which would then make Mojave inhabitants rather annoyed at the least.

[MarchUntoTorment]

My concern with the BOS would be that if you try to dangle tech in front of them, they're more than likely to shoot you and run off with it. They've got enough men and firepower to be a major threat to the Mojave if they conducted rapid, surgical strikes.

 

Also, Boomers and BOS are very different organisations - xenophobia is the only thing they have in common. The Boomers simply want to be left alone and are afraid of the outside - the BOS have nothing in principle against outsiders, but they don't trust anyone except themselves with advanced tech. The Boomers couldn't care less about technology (except for explosives) - they're just outright xenophobes.

[DoctorKaizeld]

those endings wouldnt be too big a deal here. if you add quests that change it. sure the slide show'd be the same, but the out come would be different. same with the boomers. remember we dont have to be one hundred percent on the lore. just close enough that it works.

[Degby1]

I still think it's feasible to recruit the Desert Rangers. Not ALL of them certainly as you lot have brought up, war fatigue, safety fo family etc, but there'll still be those who have war written through like stick of rock and love fighting, look at how many combat vets dont ever retire. The might have been discharged from the military but then they join Blackwater or some other PMC group and carry on shooting people up indiscrminately. As for them wanting to remain independent, well that was beacuse of the Legion, now they're gone and one man alone with help by negociating truces between sworn enemies and fiercely terrortorial and xenophobic groups pulled of what the NCR couldnt do. They have no need for the NCR. The older members would most likely reitre yes, but they vary in age and experience so if anything they could be used to train groups like the Kings or Westside Militia or take up command roles much like a Brigadier or General would.

 

The Gun Runners and even Crimson would be benefical to the Boomers, the sheer amount of gunpower, shells and bullets would be an offer to good to refuse. But the Van Graffs are snakes and I reckon the BoS would wack them and take their weapons just like Hardin sets out to do. If anything i could see the Van Graffs go to become or atleast be in league with new antagonists after the Legion have been kicked out.

 

As for BoS trying to kill u, err no! My character is Paladin in the BoS and their survival was based on your efforts otherwise they would have been blown up in their bunker or ran out the Mojave completely. I think they do have a sense of honor and loyality to their "brothers". They are the direct descendents of the U.S Army after all, it's in their blood to fight for a cause. As long as they remained within boundries and didnt stray too far from their codex it would be fine, McNamara did back the NCR after all and they truely want eachother dead.

 

To get these groups to work together again would take a high amount of skill but it could be done. Same as when people debate the ECBoS and Outcasts teaming up again, that could be done too but it would take a silver tongue and incentive, but not impossible. A Nevada thats protected by a conortium of independent groups who work in cohesion is very feasible in my opinion and i know alot overs would feel the same way too.

[devinpatterson]

not like you have a better argument on the topic.

Actually not only do I have a far better argument, I back it up with numerous quotes from the wiki. Your's hinges on a non existent clause and your defense of it is "you can't prove me wrong". I can't prove unicorns don't exist either, but I'm confident they don't. It's called proving a negative, and it's logical fallacy (ie show me in the wiki where it says specifically the desert rangers aren't all aliens).

 

now drop it

That's pretty funny, did you really think anointing yourself forum moderator was going to work. A little maturity would be nice, since your "not like you have a better argument on the topic. now drop it" is the equivalent of nuh uh, shutup.

 

the OP has stated what he wants, this isnt a discussion thread this is a request thread.

This isn't a discussion thread? Have you been following along at all? The OP even had to correct you.

 

if the OP says what he wants we have t respect that. either way there is no way we can convince the other is right at this point.

I'm not trying to convince you in any way, shape or form. I'm simply address your assertions, pointing out where they are lacking and presenting evidence.

 

so lets move on

Your more than welcome to move on. If you don't want to discuss the desert rangers I'd suggest you do just that....don't discuss them.

 

and discuss how to make the OPs request a possibility.

We are, that's why were discussing the desert rangers, to help the OP achieve the most lore friendly way possible of recruitment.

[dangman4ever]

@Narmz

First and foremost, it seems that your knowledge of the military is a bit...shallow? Many combat veterans don't leave the military mainly for the following reasons:

- They love the sense of duty and purpose they get every day by serving.

- There are no other relative easier avenues of employment for them since there is right now a huge pool of veterans in the job market. Those veterans in the job market often have better resumes, technical training, more time served in the military, and/or combat experience.

- If they serve their time in the military, they can retire after 20 years and get retirement pay from the government

- They don't want to leave their fellow soldiers who they've fought and trained alongside with for years.

Only a few are still in it because they're addicted to combat. Those are usually the ones the military watches out for in the first place. Not to mention those are the ones that other soldiers don't want to be led by. As such, those type of guys end up in the PMCs.

Second, think your example through: If there are Desert Rangers who are effectively combat junkies who like to shoot people up indiscriminately, why would the Courier hire those guys to train and lead the Independent Militia operating near civilian areas? See the problem there? The Courier isn't running Blackwater here.

As for the BoS not wanting to kill the Courier, there are two in-game examples that shows that the BoS aren't as strongly loyal and honorable as you think:

1) Elder McNamara saved the BoS from total destruction after Operation Sunburst five years before the game started. He led BoS forces through NCR lines and kept them hidden and safe in the Hidden Valley Bunker for years. Yet Head Paladin Hardin and others wanted to oust him in order to wage a new war.

2) Veronica was born, raised, and trained in the BoS. Her parents died fighting the NCR. She was the literal life line of the BoS since she helped get supplies for the Mojave BoS. Without her, the BoS would have died from starvation. Even if you convinced Veronica to stay with the BoS, several members still went out and try to kill Veronica and the Courier anyway due to her "heresy". If you convinced Veronica to join the FoA, the BoS still wiped out one of the FoA outposts to ensure that no one would learn of BoS technology.

So there are two in-game examples showing that BoS would and have turned on people who have literally saved their lives.

Now I actually do think that a consortium of independent groups working to defend the Mojave is feasible. However I disagree with your methods and reasoning of actually achieving that.

Edited August 5, 2014 by dangman4ever

[devinpatterson]

Still though above all I want this to be lore friendly, however I've already killed the Legion so unless I convince them that the Legion are gonna try it again OR that a new more dangerous faction is on its way OR play on feelings of nostalgia (which I feel would be most effective)

ion.

Oh no, there are tons of legion in Nevada, Utah, Colorado, New Mexico and especially Arizona. A lot of veterans and a large portion of legion troops were killed or routed at Hoover but there are plenty more targets begging to be tagged. If you appeal to teh same motivation that caused the Desert Rangers rangers to merge with the NCR, they will rally to your side (especially if the NCR begins to flail). That is by far the most lore friendly way of accomplishing this. But without the securitron army your going to have a pretty hard sale claiming the desert rangers will be better off at your side. Your going to need some troops and victories before you begin tipping the scales/balances.

 

I'm making several locations for our mod (sedona for instance) involving battling legion forces, after I finish off the strip (hoover dam is already done, cleaned up battle conditions, you can see it here)

[MarchUntoTorment]

As for BoS trying to kill u, err no! My character is Paladin in the BoS and their survival was based on your efforts otherwise they would have been blown up in their bunker or ran out the Mojave completely. I think they do have a sense of honor and loyality to their "brothers". They are the direct descendents of the U.S Army after all, it's in their blood to fight for a cause. As long as they remained within boundries and didnt stray too far from their codex it would be fine, McNamara did back the NCR after all and they truely want eachother dead.

 

The Brotherhood are honourable and loyal, yes, but they do prioritise technology over everything else. That's one of the reasons why I respect them - their goal, and their only goal, is to prevent mankind from destroying itself again with advanced technology. Their means are questionable, but I very much agree with their ends.

 

If you try to bribe them into violating their principles with the offer of technology, even if you're a Paladin, you'd be viewed as a traitor. The best way to do it would be to use your present influence in the BoS to persuade them to become more like the Lyons Brotherhood - making them realise that they'll be able to contain technology better by your side than hiding in their bunker. Use them as equal partners, instead of subordinates. (Which, to my recollection, is exactly how the player persuades them to back the NCR.)

 

That goes for pretty much any faction, really. It's always much easier to persuade someone by offering them an equal place, instead of trying to subdue them. Anyone who knows anything about negotiation can tell you that. The only way to effectively run an Independent New Vegas is to form a coalition government of the major factions (namely the Strip Families, the Brotherhood, the Khans, and the Boomers; also potentially the Desert Rangers, depending). The Courier would still be in command (by virtue of having access to the Securitron Army and having the overwhelming respect of all those factions), but it would be less like a dictatorship and more akin to the relationship between the President and Congress.

 

Anyone getting what I'm saying?

 

(Also, everybody keep it civil. This a good and interesting lore discussion, and let's not get pointlessly inflammatory.)