Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[LeddBate]

Yes, yes, I know. This subject has been done to death. But I hate necroing old threads so please forgive me.

 

I'm in my first playthrough (technically 2nd -since I stopped at level 5, removed the old Warzones mod and restarted) and have really been wrestling with the decision of whether to join one side or the other in the civil war.

 

EDIT 3/3/15: I want to take this opportunity to state that Warzones has been updated (by the original mod author, MGE -as well as Grand Bulwark and others) into Warzones2015 and now functions brilliantly. I participated in the beta and also spot-tested the main release. Gone are all the problems with save-game corruption due to orphan scripts. You owe it to yourself to try this fantastic mod if you would like to have a real WAR in Skyrim.

 

2nd EDIT 11/05/15: Can't resist mentioning that WarZones now has it's first official expansion, WarZones Assault Attack. This add-on adds strongholds, facilities, bosses and artillery (yes, artillery) to both factions.

 

I should note that I started with the "Live Another Life" mod but choose the vanilla start anyway. Why? I loved the introductory sequence. I thought it was well-paced and an excellent set-up for the storyline to begin. My one problem with it was that it was suddenly interrupted by the character creation screen. That was just too jarring and completely immersion-breaking. Thus, LAL allowed me to make my character first, then go through the introduction without interruption. Much better.

 

Anyway, I followed Ralof because it made sense (to me.) The Imperials tried to have me (unfairly) executed without even allowing me a chance to defend myself. Ralof seemed a fairly stable fellow with a good argument for support of the Stormcloaks. Gerdur was very sensible and asked me to perform a favor (going to Whiterun to ask the Jarl to send troops to defend Riverwood) which spelled out her loyalty to home and kin. More, she talked about the tricky political situation with the civil war brewing and made a lot of sense with her opinions. It was almost enough to make me run right up to Windhelm right then and there to join the Stromcloaks.

 

But, but, -I've gotten old enough to get suspicious about any situation that "makes too much sense." It's hard to explain. I'm not good with words. All I can say is... the more the argument for joining the Stromcloaks made sense, the more suspicious of it I got.

 

So, what to do? Well, after sitting there in Riverwood and thinking it over, I decided the only way I could make an informed decision about it was to either read a lot of spoiler material (thus lessening my enjoyment of the game) or get out there and explore Skyrim and see first-hand what all the fuss was about on both sides of the civil war. The problem is that once you go to Whiterun to get the troops that Gerdur asks for, you start off on the main-quest. However, as many of you already know, you don't HAVE to follow the main-quest when you exit Whiterun. So, for all you new folks just starting your first playthrough, my advice is that once you get the quest to go visit Bleak Falls Barrough to retrieve the stone tablet for Farengar -don't. By that I mean, just leave Whiterun and ignore the quest. You can complete it later. Much, much later. Sure, logically, Jarl Balgruuf should rip a strip off your back-side if you show up with the tablet three or four months later. But the game doesn't do that to you. If you want an immersive justification for this, just "alter" (in your mind) the instructions that Farengar gave you from "Go to Bleak Falls Barrow and recover the tablet" to "Go to Bleak Falls Barrow in a few months when the snow storms have subsided enough for you to have a chance of approaching it and recover the tablet."

 

So, with that justification for my not returning right away with the dragon tablet, I left Whiterun and started exploring. I've visited every major city and most of the towns and villages. I've joined the Companions and the College of Winterhold. I'm a Thane in three cities. I've been imprisoned in Cidhna Mines (and exonerated after escaping) and I've fought alongside both Stormcloaks and Imperials against bandits, vampires and other scum. The only fights I haven't gotten involved in were between Imperials and Stormcloaks. I've risen to level 50 and explored a LOT of the continent of Skyrim. Most importantly, I've met all the people in the cities, towns, villages and outposts. I've seen what's happening with my own eyes (and ears) rather than just listen to the talk of others.

 

This is what I have observed. I know this is posted in the Spoilers section, but I still feel obligated to warn you, here be spoilers:

 

The Stormcloak rebellion is headed by Jarl Ulfric Stormcloak and his trusted friend Galmar. They are planning their forthcoming war from the Jarl's palace in Windhelm. It is suprisingly easy to gain admittance to see them.

 

Ulfric Stormcloak believes that his rebellion is necessary. It is the driving force behind everything he does and says. Unfortunately, he's willing to sacrifice anyone and anything to win. Worse, he's willing to do such things simply because they are expedient. Ulfric may or may not be racist, but a visit to his court in Windhelm demonstrated that his court is chock full of them. Listening to them telling jokes, many of them bluntly racist, actually made me ill. (NOTE: I'm using mods that add people to cities, villages and towns. So, in all honesty, I don't know how many of these nasty nobles are actually in the vanilla game.) Worse, Ulfric's 2nd in command, Galmar, clearly is of the "You're either with us, or against us" stripe. I got the distinct sensation from him that he'd happily butcher anyone he doubted the loyalty of. Just looking around the city and talking to the populace in general (let alone the Grey Quarter) left me with a feeling that Windhelm was a dark city full of hatred and despair. Traveling back to Whiterun was such a relief that I actually wanted to hug Nazeem. (Not really.)

 

On the Imperial side of the fence, General Tullius and Legate Rikke are the driving force behind the Empire's efforts to quell the rebellion and put down Ulfric once and for all. (After he escaped from Helgen in the confusion of Alduin's attack, much like you did/will.) It is also easy to gain entrance to Castle Dour to speak to Tullius and Rikke, but the General quickly grows tired of you and will order you out.

 

Tullius is a tough, no-nonsense commander. He seems to have no qualms about anyone, of any race or belief, serving in the Imperial Legion. But, he has absolutely no patience for anyone. He's clearly under terrific pressure to bring the rebellion in Skyrim to a quick end. Having the Thalmor looking over his shoulder (more on that a bit later) is not helping matters. His 2nd in command, Rikke is a bit more willing to think openly about options and this allows her to warn Tullius about possible blind spots in his plans. If there is a dark presence in Solitude (and Castle Dour) it isn't in the Imperial sections, but rather in the chambers reserved for the Thalmor. Tullius is driven and stubborn as hell, but he only has it in for the Stormcloaks themselves. This allows Rikke to warn him about the danger of continuing to let Whiterun stand aloof in the brewing conflict and the need to push Jarl Balgruuf for a commitement, which Tullius (grudgingly) accedes to.

 

The Thalmor are the "Representatives of the Aldmeri Dominion to the Empire." What I quickly came to believe after reading books, notes and confronting them face-to-face in the cities and on the roads of Skyrim, is that they are the not-so-secret police/special forces of the Dominion.

 

While everything I've said above that paragraph is open to argument and differences of opinion, the Thalmor are not. They are racists of the worse sort. They threaten, bully, insult and will attack you on the road if you give them the slightest excuse. They will actually twist a conversation you initiate with them until you either have to admit you are a Talos worshipper or meekly back-off while they insult you and then walk away. You will spot them with alarming regularity on the roads of Skyrim, usually well armored and well armed. They are often leading a prisoner. I can't think of a more provocational situation if you are role-playing. Even if you're not playing as a Nord, these encounters are scary and very dangerous (especially if you are below level 10.) It becomes very clear, as you play the game, that the Dominion is playing a "both sides against the middle" strategy with the Empire and the Stormcloaks.

 

I've come to the following conclusions:

 

1) I sympathize with the Stormcloaks... -but not with Ulfric (and especially not Galmar!) Ralof and Gerdur really pulled at my heartstrings at the beginning of the game, but getting to know Ulfric and seeing his city totally smashed my initial vision of him based on Ralof and Gerdur's words.

2) I don't like General Tullius's... "general" attitude (no pun intended.) But he is a hell of a lot more respectable (in my opinion) than Ulfric. His attitude problems (and the blind spots they create in his awareness) are somewhat mitigated by Legate Rikke. I don't like him, but I dislike him a helluva lot less than Ulfric.

3) The Thalmor are the most arrogant, murderous bigots I've run into in the game. At least bandits just want your money. Hell, even Vampires want to kill you for a practical reason. Even Galmar looks like a paragon of love and virtuousness compared to them. This isn't just my opinion. They spout racist, hateful oaths when they are in combat with you. They insult everyone (not just you) and their threats aren't just thinly-veiled, they are openly sarcastic and provocative.

 

This is what I already do:

 

I attack Thalmor (who are not inside cities) wherever I find them. In order to avoid getting a bounty placed on me, I provoke them into combat. This is easy to do as all you have to do refuse to back down when the Thalmor start threatening you with thinly-veiled accusations of Talos worshipping. (My favorite response in the conversation tree is a flippant "You got me, I believe in Talos." This has gotten me into trouble as I am now running into Thalmor "hit squads" that are actively seeking me out. No, I'm not imagining this. I've found orders on their bodies with my name on them. Personally, I think this is wonderfully immersive. Even city and townsfolk have started to comment on my one-man-war against the Thalmor.

 

This is what I intend to do soon:

 

I will finally go to Bleak Falls Barrow and retrieve the dragon tablet for Bulgruuf and Farengar so I can re-trigger the main quest. When I finally deal with Alduin, I will join the Empire. Putting down the rebellion as quickly as possible will prevent many deaths in the long run. Also, while I sympathize with the Stormcloaks, I believe their leader is unworthy. Mainly because he simply will not accept that a Skyrim WITH the Empire is stronger than without. But, I will continue to champion Talos worship. I will attack Thalmor on sight. I will continue to wage a one-man war against the Dominion until I've exhausted all of Skyrim including the various mods. (Can't wait to try the series: "Fight Against the Thalmor" by MadFrenchie.)

 

Now, you may see things quite differently about the Empire, the Stormcloaks or even the Thalmor. (Please forgive me, though. I'm liable to laugh at you if you think the Thalmor are "misunderstood.") So please, let me know your opinions.

Edited November 5, 2015 by LeddBate

[Gilibran]

Play the mainquest, thoroughly read what you find.

 

then decide

 

i wont say anything more

[Lachdonin]

The Stormcloak-Empire conflict is really the single most masterful part of Skyrim. It has layers upon layers to it that you sometimes have to really dig to get to the truth of. Read books, talk to people, dig through some of the other stuff around the Imperial Library (particularly useful when examining Talos and the ForeswornéReachmen...)...

 

There is no right answer. Anyone who says otherwise is, frankly, totally missing the point.

[notmyhome]

Just a pity that the projection inside the game (i.e. the Civil War Quests) were so poorly made. Oh well, that's what ApolloDown is there for.

[LeddBate]

The Stormcloak-Empire conflict is really the single most masterful part of Skyrim. It has layers upon layers to it that you sometimes have to really dig to get to the truth of. Read books, talk to people, dig through some of the other stuff around the Imperial Library (particularly useful when examining Talos and the ForeswornéReachmen...)...

 

There is no right answer. Anyone who says otherwise is, frankly, totally missing the point.

 

Absolutely! I guess I should have made myself a bit more clear. I'm not going with the Empire because I think they're right. I'm joining them because they are the lesser of two evils. Also, I have to admit that I have a soft-spot for Jarl Balgruuf (best Jarl in Skyrim in my opinion) and I just can't stand to help Ulfric depose him.

 

 

Just a pity that the projection inside the game (i.e. the Civil War Quests) were so poorly made. Oh well, that's what ApolloDown is there for.

 

Agreed. Unfortunately, I didn't notice the "Civil War Overhaul" until I was up to level 27. ApolloDown makes it very clear that installing his mod mid-game is inviting disaster. Since I wasn't willing to give up that much of my accumulated character (restarting after having to remove Warzones and scrub my game at level 5 was painful enough) I regretfully had to pass on CWO. Too bad, it looks like a lot of fun.

[LethalThreat]

There is no right or wrong answer to this, both sides are equally good and bad.

 

For me I always side with the Empire in the Civil War (if I do it), for a few reasons.

 

First the Empire is the only thing keeping the Thalmor at bay. If Skyrim gains independence they are not part of the White-Gold Concordat, so the Dominion has every right to invade Skyrim which would most likely be right after the war when everyone, the Stormcloaks and Empire alike, are weak. Yes, the Nords defeated the Snow Elves nearly making them extinct but that doesn't mean they can do the same for the Thalmor. Remember, the Dominion was able to bring the entire Empire to its knees and the Empire included Skyrim itself. If you read Ulfric's dossier in the Thalmor Embassy you can see that Ulfric is an asset to the Thalmor and he was pretty much on their side until he became uncooperative. It is also mentioned that the Thalmor may carefully aid the Stormcloaks. In the end though, the Thalmor do not want either side to win they just want to keep the Civil War a flame to further weaken the Empire. This is why I side with the Empire, to keep the Empire united to allow it to rebuild its strength. If you side with the Empire Legate Rikke and General Tullius mention 'another war with the Thalmor may soon be coming'. The Stormcloaks also mention this, but I think a united Empire would be more successful at taking down the Thalmor rather than Skyrim itself.

 

The Empire isn't perfect nor is the Stormcloaks.

 

The Empire: banned Talos due to a treaty and enforces it; those sided with the Empire are kind of assholes, the rich ones are stuck up and in the Empire's pocket. Also if we look at the Hadvar and Ralof decision in the beginning, Hadvar's uncle(?) Alvor asks Hadvar if he is "drunk" and does not believe him, while Ralof's sister Gerdur believes him and is comforting toward the player and Ralof.

 

The Stormcloaks: racist to everyone except the Nords; have their own little "ghetto" slums for the Dark Elves in their city; but they are loyal to one another.

 

 

Tullius/Elisif and Ulfric.

 

Tullius/Elisif: Tullis, he may seem to be a bit of a prick (he was about to let you be executed!) but he eventually comes around notices it was a "mistake". He may seem rude about the Nords and their traditions, but he comes to respect them. Honestly I think Rikke is a savior for the Nords, if it wasn't for her Tullius may not have cared about the Nords and what happens to them and their traditions. Elisif seems true to the Nords, even though she upholds the Empire's law on Talos. She asks the player to take Torygg's war horn to a shrine of Talos, also the court wizard mentions that Torygg was a true Nord and would have fought against the Thalmor for Talos (or something like that).

 

Ulfric: This is more of an opinion, but I feel as if Ulfric is power hungry and not loyal to what he claims. First he basically makes a deal with the Thalmor allowing him to escape, and although they are not in direct contact they are still somewhat "allies". He kills the High King of Skyrim, sure it may have been true to Nordic tradition but did he really need to kill the High King? Why not just send him into submission? That is the main hint in his quest for power I believe. He also allows Nords to insult other races and allows a ghetto slum for the Dark Elves within his city, which I think is wrong. Also, all his followers seem to be either brainwashed or ultra-Nordic nationalists.

 

Overall, both sides aren't perfect. The game has a very poor Civil War storyline - hell within a few missions your one of the top officers just because you cleaned out a couple forts. After that a few Jarls are replaces, a shrine of Talos is added or not added back in Solitude, and Imperial or Stormcloak soldiers patrol the towns, thus concluding the Civil War. So in the end I guess it just depends on how you feel about those three things lol.

Edited July 31, 2014 by LethalThreat

[BrettM]

Well said, LeddBate. I went through a similar process and struggle on my first playthrough, and I suspect this is fairly common among those who post here. A few points:

 

1. If you go with Hadvar, you will have an equally-pleasant experience with him and his people (Alvor, the smith, and his family) as you did with Ralof. After all, he was the guy who tried to persuade the captain that you didn't belong there, and he's glad to help you get away during the attack.

 

2. I'm afraid I find Tullius more despicable than you do. Different from Ulfric but not really better. While he's not racist, he is certainly a cultural elitist, glad to sneer at the quaint and disgusting customs of provincials, and willing to stomp them out if told to do so. He's just enforcing the law. Just following orders. And those orders come from a leader that I consider every bit as bad as Ulfric, though in a different way.

 

3. If you're hearing racist jokes in Windhelm, it must be coming from a mod. I've never heard any such after playing eight or nine characters through the game. I think I would consider any such mod as trying unfairly to tilt the balance towards the Empire.

 

4. Your conclusion that Rikke is right about Skyrim being stronger with the Empire than without it is debatable, and many threads here do debate it. There are good arguments in support, and other good arguments against the proposition. It is, like everything else about the Civil War, well balanced in terms of there being no incontrovertible right answer, but only answers that appeal to different player moral/political points of view.

 

5. Sadly, you cannot actually "win" the Civil War for either side. While one leader or the other dies, the ultimate outcome is inconclusive because there are still opposing troops in the field. Our efforts on either side achieve only a temporary victory, no matter how overwhelming it may appear. Another leader might arise to replace the slain Ulfric and succeed in taking down Tullius. Another general might be sent by the Empire, and Ulfric might never live to officially become High King.

 

Not only is there no right answer, Bethesda hasn't given us one. They're free to slant the outcome either way in the next game, presuming there is one, and make a final victory by either side the canonical end. About the only certain thing is that both Ulfric and Tullius will be said to have been killed during the conflict, but the histories will never say exactly when or how, so either way you play can be seen as canon.

[theconquistidor]

For me I sided with the Stormcloaks. Mostly due to the fact that I found out that Ulfric had a good reason for distrusting the Dark Elves since they themselves previously had a history of slavers and thought themselves as superior to the Nords of Skyrim (it's actually revealed that the Dunmer in Windhelm are plotting to slowly turn Skyrim into Morrowind Mk II, read, "The Dunmer of Skyrim"). The main reason for me supporting the Stormcloaks is this little line spouted by Imperial soldiers "The Empire is the only thing keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim" Meanwhile in the same room as the Imperial Legate I'm talking too is Ondolemar from the Thalmor saying with absolute smugness "The Thalmor are here, and we're watching you."

 

Instead the Imps should say the Empire's the only thing keeping the dominion in Skyrim. The Empire and Tullius had years to prepare a counter attack and did nothing, Ulfric just finally had the guts to finally say enough is enough and fight them head on. A fight they can't afford since elves need several hundred years to reproduce and grew to adulthood as it would take a human. The dominion don't have the Mer power to fend off another attack in their borders. Despite Alvor telling you that even though some still have tiny shrines to talos in their home, he still admits that they can still be arrested without trial or suspicion by the Thalmor. And no deserves to be under constant fear that just by holding a different religious belief (unless it worshiping Mehrunes Dagon or something equally evil) they can arrested and killed without warning. Kinda like how I would rather live under a racist government than one that lets a bunch of Nazi's freely roam around. You know, about those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither, like living under the "protection of the Empire".

Edited August 1, 2014 by theconquistidor

[Valkasha]

Ulfric is a spy for the altmeri dominion, the stormcloaks are racist bastards, the imperials are spineless douchebags.

Don't pick a side. I go from camp to camp and murder soldiers of both factions.

[DariusGarran]

What I don't entirely understand is why I can't get Ulfric and Tullius in a room together and say:

 

"Ulfric, stop being a racist douchebag. Or at least get your damn army in line. Mer have their place in Skyrim as much as the Nords do. Tullius, grow some balls. And stop being elitist. Now let's go f*** up the Dominion. Together."

 

I mean, I'm a Lycanthrope Vampire Lord, with armour crafted from Alduin's MOTHER, a sword made from the heart of an otherworldly being that sucks the life out of those I hit with it, a master mage capable of charring, freezing, or shocking you into Oblivion and back - and then into Sovngarde -, haave two dragons at my beck and call - and Alduin's former lieutenant as an ally -, the soul of a dragon, and to top it off, able to breathe fire/ice or become ethereal or slow down time itself by yelling at someone.

 

Beating the Thalmor is an everyday job for me. I kill dragons. F***ing dragons.