Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Lachdonin]

 

But then the Dark Brotherhood is willing to accept a pathetic 20,000 gold for the death of an Emperor.

 

 

20,000 gold is a good chunk of change. Even more so, one has to consider the prestige. The Brotherhood is in shambles, and a laughing stock(though, lets face it, the Tong has always been the superior organization). How do you regain prestige and power?

 

Assassinate the Emperor. If Astrid had half a mind for good sense, she would have done it for free.

[reyzark]

 

 

But then the Dark Brotherhood is willing to accept a pathetic 20,000 gold for the death of an Emperor.

 

 

20,000 gold is a good chunk of change. Even more so, one has to consider the prestige. The Brotherhood is in shambles, and a laughing stock(though, lets face it, the Tong has always been the superior organization). How do you regain prestige and power?

 

Assassinate the Emperor. If Astrid had half a mind for good sense, she would have done it for free.

 

but whould also put the whole imperial force after them, the brotherhood that was a distant threat whould become a menacing enemy of the empire, this could be the definitive end of the brotherhood, if of course, the empire had the necessary competence to chase them, witch they dont, at least in the moment.

[kimmera]

 

 

But then the Dark Brotherhood is willing to accept a pathetic 20,000 gold for the death of an Emperor.

 

 

20,000 gold is a good chunk of change. Even more so, one has to consider the prestige. The Brotherhood is in shambles, and a laughing stock(though, lets face it, the Tong has always been the superior organization). How do you regain prestige and power?

 

Assassinate the Emperor. If Astrid had half a mind for good sense, she would have done it for free.

 

 

They don't have any trouble with people wanting to hire them. Taking that kind of contract (and risk) on for free is a good way to lose the guild. They only succeeded in the contract because the Dragonborn signed up anyway. For all their bragging, the rest of the guild of supposedly very effective murderers were barely able to withstand an assault from a handful of Imperial troops.

 

Unlike the Thieves' Guild, they had no shortage of prestige. What they were missing were capacity and capability. Daedric patronage or no, coin is vital to rebuilding both.

 

It is no surprise that the Brotherhood is in trouble, though. Even after the Night Mother starts communicating again, their methods seem reduced to having to meet personally whoever hires them. It is amazing they survived at all under those conditions. The Penitus Oculatus probably took them down by performing the sacrament themselves, and capturing whoever showed up.

 

The trick is not to become illegal in the first place (something the Morag Tong had managed). Killing the Emperor for a relatively low sum of coin is a very good way to lose such status. Now if they had actually done something useful to their survival, like take out key Thalmor leaders.....

 

Meanwhile, the Dark Brotherhood are not the Morag Tong. The MT still exists. A couple of their assassins show up in the Dragonborn DLC.

[117649AR]

Handful of Penitus Oculatus troops: hardly easy even for skilled assassins, seeing as they're meant to be among the deadliest of Imperial agents. At any rate, it's important to note that assassinating an Emperor is generally considered a bad idea, and even the Morag Tong suffered harsh reprisals from all manner of Imperial Nobles seeking their destruction following their assassination of the Akaviri Potentate Versidue-Shaie.

[Lachdonin]

 

The trick is not to become illegal in the first place (something the Morag Tong had managed). Killing the Emperor for a relatively low sum of coin is a very good way to lose such status. Now if they had actually done something useful to their survival, like take out key Thalmor leaders.....

 

 

They're already illegal. They've always BEEN illegal. The Tong has only ever operated legally in Morrowind, and even there for most of its history it's legality was dubious and subject to the whims of the Tribunal.

 

And the Emperor is a far better prestige target than any Thalmor leaders. Considerably safer, for one, as the Penitus Oculatus has only ever shown its self to be generally incompetent (couldn't even find incriminating evidence on the bleeding Chancelor until he almost dropped a mountain on the Imperial City). Compare that to the Thalmor, who managed to wipe out every Blade in their borders without anyone noticing and overthrew 2 Imperial Provisional Governments through Coup's rather than military action.

 

At any rate, it's important to note that assassinating an Emperor is generally considered a bad idea, and even the Morag Tong suffered harsh reprisals from all manner of Imperial Nobles seeking their destruction following their assassination of the Akaviri Potentate Versidue-Shaie.

 

Not necessarily true. The Tong suffered from gross overconfidence in Shaie's assassination, branding it's own name on the walls with the Potentate's blood. It had risen to be a boisterous, public organization that was easily recognised and thus easily suppressed, and there is no indication that it operated in the shadows as the Brotherhood does.

 

Its also worth noting that the unclear founding of the Brotherhood has raised questions about whether or not it WAS the Tong that assassinated Shaie in the first place.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Lachdonin

[MidbossVyers]

Also, every Imperial officer who ever went after the Dark Brotherhood, in either the Septim or Mede empires, has been turned into sashimi (Phillida and Maro, respectively). The Morag Tong responded to the Empire trying to hunt them down by retreating to Morrowind, where they have been accepted legally by tradition (although, given Adril Arano's comments, this may no longer hold true, either). Also, ironically, after the main Dark Brotherhood quest line, you can get hired by the Penitus Oculatus: http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Corrupt_Agent As for capturing whichever Brotherhood member shows up, I believe Amaund Motierre said that he's not stupid enough to betray the Brotherhood. Apparently, after finding the Emperor's ship soaked in the blood of its own crew, other Imperial politicians and officers now think the same. Also, no potential client is supposed to ever contact the Brotherhood directly. They pray to the Night Mother. I think that the Night Mother can figure out which ones are legitimate contracts and which ones are attempts to rat out the Brotherhood. As I said before, there is only 1 simple reason why the Brotherhood has not gone after the Thalmor. No one has yet hired them to do so. The Brotherhood only care about 2 things, money and death (the Night Mother is a person, not a thing). Political sides are irrelevant, no matter how powerful they are.

[kimmera]

Handful of Penitus Oculatus troops: hardly easy even for skilled assassins, seeing as they're meant to be among the deadliest of Imperial agents. At any rate, it's important to note that assassinating an Emperor is generally considered a bad idea, and even the Morag Tong suffered harsh reprisals from all manner of Imperial Nobles seeking their destruction following their assassination of the Akaviri Potentate Versidue-Shaie.

 

Skilled assassins on home turf. Astrid, who is normally at the front door and should have been the first dead on realizing she'd betrayed more than just the Dragonborn had time to perform the sacrament.

 

Nazir survived but Ambjorn goes down despite almost certainly having eaten far more hearts than any dragonborn werewolf.

 

The Pentius agents are not particularly well armed, just having basic Imperial gear.

[117649AR]

 

At any rate, it's important to note that assassinating an Emperor is generally considered a bad idea, and even the Morag Tong suffered harsh reprisals from all manner of Imperial Nobles seeking their destruction following their assassination of the Akaviri Potentate Versidue-Shaie.

 

Not necessarily true. The Tong suffered from gross overconfidence in Shaie's assassination, branding it's own name on the walls with the Potentate's blood. It had risen to be a boisterous, public organization that was easily recognised and thus easily suppressed, and there is no indication that it operated in the shadows as the Brotherhood does.

 

Its also worth noting that the unclear founding of the Brotherhood has raised questions about whether or not it WAS the Tong that assassinated Shaie in the first place.

 

 

Fair enough point.

 

 

Handful of Penitus Oculatus troops: hardly easy even for skilled assassins, seeing as they're meant to be among the deadliest of Imperial agents. At any rate, it's important to note that assassinating an Emperor is generally considered a bad idea, and even the Morag Tong suffered harsh reprisals from all manner of Imperial Nobles seeking their destruction following their assassination of the Akaviri Potentate Versidue-Shaie.

 

Skilled assassins on home turf. Astrid, who is normally at the front door and should have been the first dead on realizing she'd betrayed more than just the Dragonborn had time to perform the sacrament.

 

Nazir survived but Ambjorn goes down despite almost certainly having eaten far more hearts than any dragonborn werewolf.

 

The Pentius agents are not particularly well armed, just having basic Imperial gear.

 

 

Equipment matters more in gameplay than in does lore-wise, especially when considering skilled fighters in close-quarters rather than soldiers on an open battlefield. Even by that logic, the Dark Brotherhood is worse off: they have no armor, only a ridiculously thin (and impractical) robe or leather form-fitting suit. That said, you're also severely underestimating the quality of the average Penitus Oculatus agent: they are among the most elite of the Empire's troops, superior to the Legionnaires that are already recognized as some of the finest soldiers in Tamriel. It's important to remember that assassination is not combat, and one who is a very skilled assassin is hardly necessarily very good in a close melee. While the Oculatus would be better-suited for fighting, the Dark Brotherhood only ever emphasizes assassination: it's an assassins' guild, not a fighters' guild. That the Dark Brotherhood survived at all is a wonder, especially considering that they were outnumbered.

[kimmera]

 

 

 

They're already illegal. They've always BEEN illegal. The Tong has only ever operated legally in Morrowind, and even there for most of its history it's legality was dubious and subject to the whims of the Tribunal.

 

And the Emperor is a far better prestige target than any Thalmor leaders. Considerably safer, for one, as the Penitus Oculatus has only ever shown its self to be generally incompetent (couldn't even find incriminating evidence on the bleeding Chancelor until he almost dropped a mountain on the Imperial City). Compare that to the Thalmor, who managed to wipe out every Blade in their borders without anyone noticing and overthrew 2 Imperial Provisional Governments through Coup's rather than military action.

 

 

 

Not necessarily true. The Tong suffered from gross overconfidence in Shaie's assassination, branding it's own name on the walls with the Potentate's blood. It had risen to be a boisterous, public organization that was easily recognised and thus easily suppressed, and there is no indication that it operated in the shadows as the Brotherhood does.

 

Its also worth noting that the unclear founding of the Brotherhood has raised questions about whether or not it WAS the Tong that assassinated Shaie in the first place.

 

 

They might be illegal in Morrowwind under Imperial law, but Imperial Law has much less influence out there. Furthermore, the Morag Tong might be officially illegal but the Empire doesn't seem to do much to crack down on them. There is no special anti-assassin unit such as the Pentius Oculatus. You can even join them as a Blade, and are never ordered to take them down even though you are an Imperial Agent.

 

The Thalmor wiped out every *known* Blade within their borders. They don't necessarily know them all.

 

Wiping out an Emperor is arguably overconfidence. Wiping out an Emperor when a much more effective threat (the Thalmor) looms is short sighted. If it is a weak Emperor, then it is that much more short sighted, since a replacement strong Emperor would likely hire more competent Pentius investigators. After all, if the Brotherhood would kill their predecessor for a mere 20k, then what happens if the Thalmor offer a real bounty? (And for that matter, if as Emperor I found out that my predecessor was killed for a relatively small sum, or worse, for free, then I'd really start to wonder if the Brotherhood were actually Thalmor agents).

 

 

Also, every Imperial officer who ever went after the Dark Brotherhood, in either the Septim or Mede empires, has been turned into sashimi (Phillida and Maro, respectively). The Morag Tong responded to the Empire trying to hunt them down by retreating to Morrowind, where they have been accepted legally by tradition (although, given Adril Arano's comments, this may no longer hold true, either). Also, ironically, after the main Dark Brotherhood quest line, you can get hired by the Penitus Oculatus: http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Corrupt_Agent As for capturing whichever Brotherhood member shows up, I believe Amaund Motierre said that he's not stupid enough to betray the Brotherhood. Apparently, after finding the Emperor's ship soaked in the blood of its own crew, other Imperial politicians and officers now think the same. Also, no potential client is supposed to ever contact the Brotherhood directly. They pray to the Night Mother. I think that the Night Mother can figure out which ones are legitimate contracts and which ones are attempts to rat out the Brotherhood. As I said before, there is only 1 simple reason why the Brotherhood has not gone after the Thalmor. No one has yet hired them to do so. The Brotherhood only care about 2 things, money and death (the Night Mother is a person, not a thing). Political sides are irrelevant, no matter how powerful they are.

 

Not true. Nazir and Babette survived, but the Brotherhood sanctum was destroyed. The Dragonborn has to escape by hiding in the Night Mother's coffin, which implies that they couldn't simply have run out the front door. That base is compromised and has to be abandoned, just like all the other brotherhood bases before they came to hide out in Skyrim.

 

That is hardly the result of unsuccessful operations against them. It is the Brotherhood being driven back, not Pentius Oculatus.

 

Of course Amaund says that when he is talking with you, the member who kills the Emperor for him. What do you expect him to say? "Ha ha, skilled assassin! Now that your work is done I am going to run to the nearest PO office and tell them all about you! Nevermind that I'd be admitting in doing so that I am the traitor who ordered the kill...."

 

The Night Mother is not completely omniscient. If she was personal meetings wouldn't be needed. Heck, if she was omniscient, the sacrament wouldn't be needed. She'd simply know who needed an assassination performed. Regardless, the sacrament could still be invoked against targets the Empire legitimately wants eliminated.

 

As for what the Brotherhood care about, at this stage they are just struggling to survive and have questionable priorities, hence Astrid betraying them, or for that matter, if the dragonborn is differently inclined, it can be the dragonborn who takes them down, simply because Astrid is so desperate and/or overconfident that she recruits off the street.

 

Oh, and as for being hired by the PO, no, you can't. That is a corrupt PO member, the key word being 'corrupt.'

[MidbossVyers]

I recall back in Daggerfall that Brotherhood hideouts could literally just be normal houses with seemingly normal residents, some of whom were even children IIRC. Some of those "children" might be vampires, like Babette, but I'm guessing that a few of them were legitimately children. Getting a similar hideout may be difficult, but not impossible. Well, regardless of whether or not the Night Mother is omniscient, personal meetings still need to occur to get payment. Yes, the Empire could hire the Brotherhood. What's your point in that regard? Lucien ran the same risk as Astrid, in terms of recruitment standards. Corrupt members of organizations are still members of those organizations, but I do get your point in that that particular agent may not have been representing the organization as a whole.