Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[CaptainPatch]

I don't know, I don't think defeating Miraak and Harkon count as a destiny. Defeathing them are tasks. Establishing or rebuilding an empire is a destiny.

I don't think you can say that the LDB was NOT destined to confront Miraak. Miraak was, after all, sending cultists to attempt to assassinate LDB. (Which sort of suggests Miraak wasn't really all that bright. To think that three cultists could take down someone that has demonstrated repeatedly that he can take down dragons.) That is, Miraak was forcing the confrontation. At some point, after the first assassination attempt of the 27th, the ONLY way to not be jumping at shadows for the rest of his life would be to find Miraak and put an end to him.

 

Harkon, otoh was indeed entirely optional. That question was something could conceivably been done by Isran and his followers. There was nothing in the quest that smacked of "The LDB is the ONLY person that can carry out this quest." It's just that out of everyone in a position to do the quest, the LDB would most likely have the easiest time of it.

[MidbossVyers]

I mentioned this somewhere before, but while I'm not sure about the other Dawnguard members, without the Dragonborn, Isran has too much of a teenage hate boner to align with Serana.

[Elimc]

 

Actually, given that every large hold court has a court mage

 

Riften's mage is an absolute laughing stock and totally incompetent. Windhelm's is surrounded by so much fear and suspicion that no one thinks twice about blaming him for murders because, 'Wizard'. Dawnstar's is an outright pacifist. And all those positions are simply there because the Jarl's have always had a court mage, not because they are respected positions or that Nords have any faith in the magical arts.

 

 

Similarly, the raw words of the Way of the Voice (not how the Greybeards interpret it) say that the Voice can only be used in times of great need (not that it cannot be used in battle).

 

The Way of the Voice is for the glory and praise of the gods, not for martial pursuits. It COULD be argued that the Way would allow for the wider spread of the Thu'um in the glorification of Talos, but Ulfric admits that the Talos ban is a political tool and not particularly dear to his heart.

 

In a similar vein, you don't seem to understand how the Thu'um works. Jurgen didn't convince the other Tongues of the Way, he literally shouted them into submission. He SHOUTED pacifism onto them. His Thu'um was stronger, and its influence changed how the Thu'um was taught. It's not a matter of interpreting philosophies, but an expression of sheer will. The Greybeards of today are still bound by the will of Jurgan, not an interpretation of some distant philosophy.

 

The Greybeards could use the voice for fighting if they wanted to, because Arngeir says "Begone, before even my philosophy is tested beyond the breaking point." So he could attack you, but he doesn't, because of his philosophy, not because of Jurgan. And where does Ulfric say that the Talos ban is a political tool?

[CaptainPatch]

The Greybeards could use the voice for fighting if they wanted to, because Arngeir says "Begone, before even my philosophy is tested beyond the breaking point." So he could attack you, but he doesn't, because of his philosophy, not because of Jurgan. And where does Ulfric say that the Talos ban is a political tool?

Meh. That's like saying that EVERYONE has the ability to pull the trigger on a gun; therefore EVERYONE is capable of murder. Arngeir says that he was tempted to use the Voice in anger, but EVERYBODY gets tempted to do violence sooner or later. Yet, the overwhelming majority seldom yield to the temptation. It's their strict adherence to their personal beliefs that prevent them from yielding, thus making it that they "can't" do violence -- because they choose not to.

[Lachdonin]

The Greybeards could use the voice for fighting if they wanted to, because Arngeir says "Begone, before even my philosophy is tested beyond the breaking point." So he could attack you, but he doesn't, because of his philosophy, not because of Jurgan.

You misunderstand. I didn't say that the Greybeards can't use the Thu'um violently, I said that Nurgen shouted pacifism into them. It's not a matter of convincing others of the virtue of his philosophy, he literally shoved it into their minds with the power of his Thu'um. There's no interpretation in that, no shift over the centuries. It's not a religious philosophy which can be twisted over time, it's a physical thing, imbedded in the nature of the Voice and how it's taught. That's why Tiber's school failed, because the only teachers couldn't teach a war-like use of the Thu'um. The only way around it is to be stronger, like the Dragonborn and (possibly) Ulfric. But, Ulfric barely knows anything about it, and do you think the Greybeards are going to train him now?

[MidbossVyers]

Yes, but by that definition, if you are able to successfully use the Thu'um for combat, then you have the privilege to do so. Yes, Ulfric only knows Unrelenting Force, but depending on how it's used, it can be very effective (list of number of times that I killed a full-health boss by Shouting him off a ledge). Also, in terms of Ulfric's continued training, it might be a moot point, regardless, based on what the Greybeards said. Unless you are Dragonborn, even learning 1 Shout can take a long time. Obviously, I have no way to quantify "long time", but it would be reasonably uncommon for a normal human-souled human with a normal human lifespan to learn that many Shouts, anyway, especially a political and military leader. Greybeards are monks with literally nothing else better to do.

[Lachdonin]

Yes, Ulfric only knows Unrelenting Force, but depending on how it's used, it can be very effective (list of number of times that I killed a full-health boss by Shouting him off a ledge).

Well, it also depends on how much you understand. Ulfric only seems to know Force (Fus) which can make an enemy stumble, or known down a novice foe, but it's not shattering any castle gates anytime soon.

 

The main issue here, though, isn't how hard something is to learn, but rather who can teach it. The Greybeards won't, Ulfric barely knows what he's doing and likely doesn't have the time to meditate on it further, and your average bloke can't absorb Dragons to gain their knowledge (for the record, it actually seems like Tiber Septim couldn't shout either, despite being Dragonborn, implying that he never killed a Dragon in his lifetime). It's not something you can just pick up on your own, it's something that needs to be taught, so its not going to be something the Nords will have at their disposal.

 

And that's the key here... Their military power in the past came predominantly from the Thu'um. Their Tongues were their most powerful weapons, and they used them along with their potent Mages to carve out their Empire. They have neither now. All they are left with is strength of arms, which has, frankly, not been particularly useful to them in the last 4000 years.

[Rethrain]

(for the record, it actually seems like Tiber Septim couldn't shout either, despite being Dragonborn, implying that he never killed a Dragon in his lifetime). It's not something you can just pick up on your own, it's something that needs to be taught, so its not going to be something the Nords will have at their disposal.

 

 

 

 

I'll interject in here. Dragon's didn't exist in Tiber Septim's time. The rest of them were all killed in the Akaviri invasion against Reman and Co (Battle of Pale Pass). Also I remember reading somewhere that something happened to Tiber's voice that rendered him unable of speech, or at the very least anywhere near a Thu'um. I really need to find that lore book... though, but I remember reading that.

 

Ya it does need to be taught, though and it can be pretty hard unless you are Dragonborn. Or meditate like Jurgen. Thu'um was never a mainstay of the Nords, though, they are a very special force, only to supplement, not as something that...should be counted on. Also I don't remember any other country expand into an empire like Skyrim-Cyrodill. Only notable exception were the Akaviri, and Aylieds, and to a much lesser extent the Altmer. Oh, and I suppose the Dwemer too, in a way. But both Aylied and Dwemer are extinct.

[Lachdonin]

Nah, that's just sloppy history. We know at least one Dragon actively served under Tiber Septim (Nafaalargus) as sort of a secret weapon before being killed by Cyrus. Other Dragons, like Paarthunax and the one you fight at the Watch Tower, were still alive. They had just gotten good at hiding.

 

The Official history states that Tiber could use the Thu'um, but had his throat slit when Culchain (probably spelled that wrong) was assassinated and lost the ability. However, the events of Daggerfall, several encounters with spirits, the Apotheosis of Talos, even what we see in Skyrim, points to the version if events in the Arcturian Heresy being more accurate. It says it wasn't Tiber who could shout, but the spirit of Wulfhearth that circled him. Tiber then lost that ability when he offended Wulfhearth by signing a treaty with the Dunmer instead of exterminating all Elf-Kind.

[Rethrain]

What is sloppy history? The dragon part? Eehh. Not really important. I'm sure some Snow elves are still existing, though most people think they are extinct.