Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[monganfinn]

I've still never taken a side in the Civil War because I've alwyas been of the mind that Skyrim should not be under the thumb of a k ing or an emperor

The problem with that is that the longer the civil war rages the more the Thalmor profit from it.

 

Talos Worship is EVERYWHERE

I´m pretty sure it´s only widespread in the human provinces and then not even in Hammerfell.

 

They were forced to accept the treaty to end the war, they never wanted to, but they had to.

That´s the point where minds part, I´d argue that the Empire could have gotten better terms, that wouldn´t predictably make them loose 2 of their remaining provinces - Hammerfell and Skyrim.

 

The Imperials have an ulterior motive: Remove the Thalmor from Skyrim(and eventually the other provinces) due to this Concordat(which would incite another war, but I think the Empire would be more than ready, given time).

So do the cloaks. The question is when if not within 25 years after the war? When the new elven generation has grown up?

The Thalmor are fully aware that the Empire wants to push them out, but cannot act on an accusation, they need proof.

As Tamriel clearly doesn´t have the UN or any other supranational legal body, which would make proof a necessity for military actions one would think, if the AD has so much more military power than the Empire that the Empire still needs years to come to match them - how come the AD doesn´t simply invade.

That the AD follows the terms of the WGC and waited until proof of attempted!! Talos worship - Martkarth Incident, reached them, tells me that their military powers aren´t that great.

 

Now, with Ulfric, oh they have it.

No, with Ulfric they got a civil war, which is far more important for them than proof of Talos worship, they could have gotten that as easily as bribing some idiots in Skyrim to rat out their neighbours.

 

Talos is a wonderful god and you cannot tell me otherwise!!!

Oh Talos is a "good" god, for humans at least. But Talos, the god, never did anything - so I find it strange that people would admire him. Now as to the three humans that make/made up Talos, at least one of them is a giant a**hole who betrayed his comrades, might have killed his king, might have raped Barenziah, slaughtered elves etc.

 

People keep saying Skyrim doesn't need a King... High King is basically an honorary position =_= Skyrim has been a member of the Empire since Talos founded it, they have ALWAYS served the Emperor. At the same time, each province does have its own laws, regulations, and rulers, but those rulers swear fealty to the Emperor. Managing a Kingdom is a very delicate process.

High King was an honorary position under the rule of the Empire, with renewed independence the position would naturally become important again.

People! Srsly, this isn´t the Septim Empire any more, it´s the Mede Empire and has little to nothing to do with the Septims apart from still using their dragon sigil.

Skyrim has always served the Emperor? Only in the third era, before that Skyrim was mostly independent. And historically the identity of the Septim emperors/empresses has often been heavily disputed: Potema, Katariah etc.

As we do not have a codex on the laws/traditions of succession in Skyrim we cannot really say if Ulfric´s challenge to Thorygg was lawful or not. One thing´s for sure though, while some Nords accept it, the Empire doesn´t. So either way the Empire wants to impose its own laws on their provinces, so to say that the provinces have their own laws is thin ice.

Need I also remind people that there are several instances where people claim that High King Thorygg himself has thought about leaving the Empire? That idea hasn´t been born with Ulfric, even he claims that it has been imparted on him by his citizen (though I admit that those citizen were probably his close circle or rather the Nord citizen of Windhelm as I doubt the Dunmer and other minorities cared about that at all).

 

If Ulfric's rebellion were to succeed, the Empire would be removed from Skyrim, thus allowing the Thalmor to move in.

Basically, if Ulfric's rebellion won, the Thalmor would swing in, full force, with nothing to hold them back.

Sorry, but you can´t sell me that the AD would have any chance at conquering Skyrim. And if you wish to tell me that the paramilitary Thalmor agency would move into Skyrim somehow then I have to ask you how come? Since Ulfric´s first order of business would by a purge of all Thalmor across Skyrim. As it was the Empire that signed the WGC and not Skyrim, Ulfric has no reason whatsoever to suffer their presence.

[Amoryenar]

you could at least quote me =_=

 

I still think the Empire is the wisest choice.

 

The AD will take Skyrim if they have the chance, that much is certain. They already have Hammerfell, Elsweyr, Black Marsh, and Valenwood, do you honestly think they'll stop there? And who's to say that the Mede Empire is bad? They have a weakened Empire, can you really blame it?

 

Titus Mede II was praised for his leadership during the Great War, futile as his resistance was. Whether he had accepted the original proposal or not, the outcome would have been the same, but with less casualties, so the Empire WILL push back the AD at SOME POINT just give them time to rebuild.

 

IF YOU PLAY THE DARK BROTHERHOOD --- don't read if you haven't seen it

 

titus mede II is removed from the equation... so what then for the Empire?

 

[tnu]

as for Talos being "good" I call that in to question as somebody who finds his domain distasteful and would favor say Zenithar and Stendarr.

Edited January 24, 2017 by tnu

[khyloskye]

@Amoryenar

 

"The AD will take Skyrim if they have the chance, that much is certain." The AD will take anywhere on Tamriel if they have the chance, Skyrim isn't unique in this regard.

 

"They already have Hammerfell, Elsweyr, Black Marsh, and Valenwood..." They don't have Hammerfell or Black Marsh, so you're half right.

 

I'm not sure why you think Skyrim will just roll over to the AD, and you're certainly not the first to think so. But...

 

Hammerfell held them off alone, so it's certainly possible another independent province can. Not to mention the fact that the Empire is directly in the way of an Aldmeri assault on Skyrim. They'd have to go through them or around them, neither of which is without consequence. Right now, all major parties in the Great War are in a weakened state: Empire, Dominion, Hammerfell. And with the civil war, Skyrim is too. Right now, everyone is somewhat equally handicapped.

 

Personally, I think there's too many Oblivion-philes still around that can't give up on the emotional connection to that game. I get it, it was a great game. But there are plenty of other stories to tell. I, for one, would love to see either a brand new political power in Tamriel...or none at all. It would be really interesting to see Tamriel layed out like independant city-states. After all, Bethesda modeled the Empire after the Romans, and even they didn't last forever. :wink:

Edited January 24, 2017 by khyloskye

[monganfinn]

I´m sorry about not using quotes, but I have a problem with staying connected to the forum for longer periods of time and thus I´m writing my posts always in word and then copy and paste them - thus please excuse that I do not quote.

 

The AD will take Skyrim if they have the chance, that much is certain.

Yes, if they ever have the chance - I´m arguing though that due to geographical, political and climate reasons they won´t have a chance. To even reach Skyrim they would have to somehow bypass Breton-, Orc-, Redguard- or Empire troops. The AD navy might be the best navy of Tamriel and even beyond but I don´t see them establishing a working supply line through the frozen Sea of Ghosts.

 

They already have Hammerfell, Elsweyr, Black Marsh, and Valenwood, do you honestly think they'll stop there?

The AD does NOT have Hammerfell, after Hammerfell left the Empire, which would have given the AD the southern regions of Hammerfell in the WGC, the Redguards fought a 5 year long war along the southern coast and then the AD had to give up the southern regions they had conquered during the Great War to sign a peace treaty.

The AD MOST CERTAINLY DOES NOT have the Hist children of Argonia under their thumb.

The AD most certainly will try to take further lands, true, they already tried to do so when they attacked Hammerfell and Cyrodiil and got their teeth kicked in - or in Lord Naarfin´s case was hung from White Gold for it - there´s absolutely no realistic way for them to conquer Skyrim and hold it seeing as the province is surrounded by enemies, cut off from direct supply lines connecting them to AD territory and is apart from Morrowind the province the farthest from AD lands.

The only way I see the AD even attacking Skyrim is if the Empire lets them travel through their lands unmolested.

 

And who's to say that the Mede Empire is bad?

I make it a point to differentiate between the Empires as the Septim Empire had a huge interest in the Talos being seen as a god since it gave his "descendants" a sort of holy mandate to rule. Something the Mede dynasty cannot latch onto, thus the Mede line has less political interest in the worship of Talos compared to the Septim line.

Furthermore I often hear the argument that the Cloaks are disrespecting the Empire founded by Talos, whom they fight for, and their own ancestral troops who had supported Talos. And that is just plain wrong as Talos has nothing to do with the founding of the Mede Empire and no large Nord troops fought for Titus Mede 1st as he sneaked his troops into the Imperial City past another warlord and forced the Elder Council at sword edge to declare him emperor.

 

They have a weakened Empire, can you really blame it?

Can I blame the imperial government for not stopping the Thalmor from annexing Elsweyr and Valenwood? - why yes, yes I can. Preventing stuff like that is kinda what they exist for.

 

Titus Mede II was praised for his leadership during the Great War, futile as his resistance was.

His resistance was successful, the moment the Empire got their stuff together the AD armies were quickly defeated - the Empire just lost on the intelligence gathering front as they believed the AD to be not ready for war and thus the Empire reacted far too slowly to the invading armies.

Sadly we learned from Elder Scrolls Legends that Titus Mede who led the charge against the Imperial City was just a player Hero in disguise (if I remember Lachdonin´s words correctly?)

 

Whether he had accepted the original proposal or not, the outcome would have been the same, but with less casualties, so the Empire WILL push back the AD

I don´t understand your thought process, they made a bad decision in the past, not accepting the terms when they could have lulled the AD into complacency, and thus you judge that the Empire will ever get its stuff together to fight a war they don´t really care to have?

After all for the common people of the empire and the nobles hardly anything changed. Sure there are Thalmor troops now everywhere, but there always had been snobbish high elves around. Sure you can´t worship Talos publically anymore, but who cares if you can do so in the privacy of your own home? - The Nords do care, but the people of Cyrodiil probably care far less - otherwise the government living there would not have signed the WGC in the first place. IMO at least they would not care enough to start a war that would be fought on their own land and cause many casualties across Cyrodiil again.

 

at SOME POINT

And how long should the people of the Empire be content to be spied on, and arrested by a foreign power in the meantime?

 

just give them time to rebuild.

How much longer than 25 years? In that time span a whole new generation of human warriors grew up, with plenty of battle ready veterans still being capable to fight as well.

 

titus mede II is removed from the equation... so what then for the Empire?

Probably a new civil war over the throne, fanned by the AD. After all even if there are heirs, those could have "accidents" or the Elder Council finally decides to do away with emperors altogether and simply rule themselves - consider that the guy who hired you to kill Titus was an Elder Council member most probably as he had an Elder Council amulet. Do you see now why I do not want to be tied to a dying empire? It won´t recover any time soon.

 

as for Talos being "good" I call that in to question

IMO Talos is definitely a positive divine influence for human races. Even if you don´t profit from him directly he is championing humanities cause similar to Shezzar/Shor/Lorkhan. I guess it depends on your view on Lorkhan´s goal if you find him altogether positive or not.

 

I think there's too many Oblivion-philes still around that can't give up on the emotional connection to that game.

I second that. But again, Septim =/= Mede.

Personally I don´t believe the Empire will EVER start the 2nd Great War, I now I wouldn´t in their shoes! Because as long as the AD keeps to the WGC money flows well in the Empire, peace is certainly more profitable than a risky war on your own soil. Furthermore there is the problem that the Empire won´t anytime soon, if ever, be able to match the AD on water, which means any direct attack on the Summerset Islands is off the table. This leaves the Empire with possible attacks on Elsweyr and Valenwood: both are provinces with an unique climate and terrain where the native Bosmer/Khajiit have the clear advantage. (too bad the Redguards left the Empire, he? They at least could have been useful in attacking Elsweyr)

So you see, as things stand, any decisive victory of the Empire over the AD is pretty much impossible. Furthermore history teaches us that empires that far gone don´t recover. Which is why my master plan would be inviting the AD onto mainland Tamriel, where they hopefully will overextend themselves once more in their logistics, and bleed them in Cyrodiil/High Rock/Hammerfell. However the AD will not launch another invasion as long as the Empire has the might to fight them off and since the AD must have spies all across Cyrodiil by now, as they even have them in Skyrim (if the Penitus Oculatus agents consider spying on the Nords hell -novels, then the same must be considered a suicide mission for the high elves) the Empire will not have the chance to give them a false image of themselves.

 

If however the AD thinks Cyrodiil weak as the other provinces all left the Empire, and thus attacks - a surprise alliance between the 4 human provinces could defeat the attacking AD force, they did so once before!

A united Empire cannot win a fight against the AD as they would have to attack themselves. IMO a splintered Empire with a secret alliance behind them could create the illusion of weakness and thus lure the AD in and perhaps win.

Edited January 24, 2017 by monganfinn

[LeddBate]

Me: "Odahving!! Why did you set the bakery on fire!?"

 

Odahving: "This thread just hit 150 pages. I figured that deserved a celebration of some sort. Don't you monkeys celebrate with cake and candles?"

 

Me: "Well, yes. But what on Nirn does that have to do with burning down a bakery!?"

 

Odahving: "Well, there's got to be a cake in there somewhere, right? I just lit the candles is all."

Edited January 25, 2017 by LeddBate

[skyquest32]

Talos is admired for some of the reasons that crazy street preacher in whiterun gives. That would be enough for most like the Egyptian god set who is portrayed in certain Apocrypha as originally being a man. Even if they can never join him they view him as worthy of worship.

 

That is the perception. One that understands the human race because he was a man. Hence a brother to men. Like a man that reached the very gates of heaven to become a god, and watch over men.

 

This also tells the nords that even if they can t be a god, it affirms they have a bit of the divine within themselves because the potential is there. As above so bellow. So they are like Mormons in a way, yes? *sorry could not help it*

 

Or in some ways he is an ancestral god. :smile:

 

Who would not admire that, regardless of all else? It makes for a pretty story. An inspiring story for a warrior race, true or not. Myth, metaphor or reality.

Edited January 25, 2017 by skyquest32

[tnu]

These days I"m somewhat more interested in what side or outcome is most beneficial for the player character and grants themt he most power.

[monganfinn]

 

Talos is admired for some of the reasons that crazy street preacher in whiterun gives.

I believe those are all actions done by Tiber Septim/Hjalti, Wulfharth or Zurin Arctus, Cyrodiil might have been deforested by Tiber Septim but he was still a living being back then and no "posthumous" god.

 

These days I"m somewhat more interested in what side or outcome is most beneficial for the player character and grants themt he most power.

On one hand you become a legate within the empire with the generals, grand marshal, elder councillors, province rulers, emperor + family above you.

On the other hand you become the new High King´s right hand man beside Galmar, the hierarchy in an independant Skyrim is certainly flatter than in the empire. Furthermore if Ulfric´s renewal of the old customs gets supported by the Jarls in the Moot what keeps your LDB from acting on those old customs and simply challenging Ulfric to a duel??

[tnu]

 

 

Talos is admired for some of the reasons that crazy street preacher in whiterun gives.

I believe those are all actions done by Tiber Septim/Hjalti, Wulfharth or Zurin Arctus, Cyrodiil might have been deforested by Tiber Septim but he was still a living being back then and no "posthumous" god.

 

These days I"m somewhat more interested in what side or outcome is most beneficial for the player character and grants themt he most power.

On one hand you become a legate within the empire with the generals, grand marshal, elder councillors, province rulers, emperor + family above you.

On the other hand you become the new High King´s right hand man beside Galmar, the hierarchy in an independant Skyrim is certainly flatter than in the empire. Furthermore if Ulfric´s renewal of the old customs gets supported by the Jarls in the Moot what keeps your LDB from acting on those old customs and simply challenging Ulfric to a duel??

 

 

 

Want to see a mod like that myself wherein, after helpign Ulfric ta ke the throne you can challenge him. it's also important ot keep in mind that that the Emperor and a prominant member of the Elde rCouncil can wind up dead.