Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[CaptainPatch]

Interesting info that I hadn't realized before. Elenwen was his interrogator back in Cyrodiil? Hmm. It would be entertaining to see what would happen if they were ever alone in the same room.

 

And you would think that Ulfric could be able to read a calendar. Maybe he lost track of the date while in captivity. But once he was free again, he would be able to ascertain the date then. Count backward however many days it was to when he spilled his guts to ID that date. Then compare that date to the date that the IC fell to the the AD. In short, if he had half a brain, he should have been able to deduce that the info he gave up had NOTHING to do with the IC being captured.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

How do you know Ulfric didn't know any important information? Even a lower ranking person could have a rough estimate of how many soldiers the legion had with them.

 

@CaptainPatch

 

If Ulfric was locked up in a room, with no way to tell the passage of time, he wouldn't be able to do what you suggest. If he had a window, or the guards always gave him his meals at regular times, then he would be able to keep track of time, but if the guards came at random times and there wasn't a window, then he would have no idea how fast time was passing.

[CaptainPatch]

@Kimmera

 

How do you know Ulfric didn't know any important information? Even a lower ranking person could have a rough estimate of how many soldiers the legion had with them.

 

@CaptainPatch

 

If Ulfric was locked up in a room, with no way to tell the passage of time, he wouldn't be able to do what you suggest. If he had a window, or the guards always gave him his meals at regular times, then he would be able to keep track of time, but if the guards came at random times and there wasn't a window, then he would have no idea how fast time was passing.

Obviously you haven't served in the military. A soldier in the ranks can make a fair guess as to how many soldiers were in his immediate unit. Likewise officers can note how many men were in the unit that they command. But when you get to division/Legion level, it would be only the officers at HQ that a good idea of what units they have and how strong each of those units are and what the status of each is. (They need that kind of info in order to formulate any meaningful strategy.) Outside of HQ, the observations of soldiers fall into the category of rumor mill and scuttlebutt. Interrogators really can't get a decent evaluation from ONE soldier. Rather, they need to make their best guesstimates from having interviewed MANY soldiers from many different units to get some kind of gestalt analysis.

[Elimc]

@CaptainPatch

 

We have no idea what Ulfric's rank was, it could have been just a foot soldier or a step under general, but we don't know. If Ulfric looked at the Imperial army's camp, he could make a fair guess about how many people were there. He would probably know how many legions were in the IC, or maybe he revealed a secret entrance to the city. We don't know, and none of this is the AD making him think he did better at fighting him than he really did, it is them trying to make him feel guilty.

[fraquar]

Based on history, the influential are Officers. My guess is Ulfric was at least a Captain given his connection as the son of a Jarl. I seriously doubt he was a foot soldier.

 

As an officer, he'd be privy to tactical information (objectives, unit strengths, etc) within his command structure (up and down about 1 level at least). He may or may not be privy to Strategic information depending on his assignment. A Captain who is an Aide de Camp to a Legate or General - yeah, he'd have a pretty good idea of the Strategic situation.

 

It's just as much the assignment as it is the rank when it comes to knowledge of the Strategic situation in an Army structure. As a Sergeant, I was privy to information on a Theatre level that even officers above me weren't.

Edited September 6, 2015 by fraquar

[CaptainPatch]

As an officer, he'd be privy to tactical information (objectives, unit strengths, etc) within his command structure (up and down about 1 level at least). He may or may not be privy to Strategic information depending on his assignment. A Captain who is an Aide de Camp to a Legate or General - yeah, he'd have a pretty good idea of the Strategic situation.

 

It's just as much the assignment as it is the rank when it comes to knowledge of the Strategic situation in an Army structure. As a Sergeant, I was privy to information on a Theatre level that even officers above me weren't.

You make a good point. And I would guess that you at least understand the distinct difference between Line and Staff. A Staff Captain would undoubtedly be able to comment somewhat knowledgeably of much of a division's deployments. But a Line Captain really wouldn't know much more than his own company/cohort and maybe something about the companies/cohorts deployed to either side.

 

I really could never see Ulfric as anything more than a low-ranking Line officer in the Great War. Otherwise he would have had a better understanding of just what kind of operational capabilities an entire army that had sustained >50% casualties would have. He really never sounded to be much more than, "Well my boys are still in this fight! And the rest of you milk-drinkers should be too!" That's not somebody with a realistic grasp of Strategy, imho.

[kimmera]

@CaptainPatch

 

We have no idea what Ulfric's rank was, it could have been just a foot soldier or a step under general, but we don't know. If Ulfric looked at the Imperial army's camp, he could make a fair guess about how many people were there. He would probably know how many legions were in the IC, or maybe he revealed a secret entrance to the city. We don't know, and none of this is the AD making him think he did better at fighting him than he really did, it is them trying to make him feel guilty.

 

 

Based on history, the influential are Officers. My guess is Ulfric was at least a Captain given his connection as the son of a Jarl. I seriously doubt he was a foot soldier.

 

As an officer, he'd be privy to tactical information (objectives, unit strengths, etc) within his command structure (up and down about 1 level at least). He may or may not be privy to Strategic information depending on his assignment. A Captain who is an Aide de Camp to a Legate or General - yeah, he'd have a pretty good idea of the Strategic situation.

 

It's just as much the assignment as it is the rank when it comes to knowledge of the Strategic situation in an Army structure. As a Sergeant, I was privy to information on a Theatre level that even officers above me weren't.

 

Ulfric was allowed to escape but we don't know exactly when other than it was some time after the city had been captured. It may not have been until after or during the Battle of the Red Ring, in which case he wouldn't know anything about the situation since he was too busy being in Thalmor custody to command anything.

 

Regardless, you are saying that our primary source, The Great War is incorrect as to the state of the Imperial troops, and that Ulfric somehow knew more than the author. In which case, we have no reason to trust anything said there about the Hammerfell situation.

 

You have stopped pulling information out of a hat and now are just pulling it out of your butt. Ulfric doesn't even make any comments with respect to the exact situation of the Empire at the time the Concordat was signed. He certainly doesn't make any dialogue references to the situation regarding Hammerfell. Despite this, you just keep blindly stating 'but Ulfric would have known....' even though we have a primary source (The Great War) that contradicts your theories.

[fraquar]

Even the author of The Great War doesn't present everything as fact in that book - he himself states that parts of that are conjecture, i.e. best guesses when you read the prelude. Nothing can be taken too literally in this game, when we do something is going to contradict it. The first half of the book anyone could have written since it's little more than grabbing things from the history books. That means the conjecture part is in the most critical elements of the book - the part from Red Ring onwards.....

 

We can't take anything too literal in Skyrim.

[CaptainPatch]

Ulfric was allowed to escape but we don't know exactly when other than it was some time after the city had been captured. It may not have been until after or during the Battle of the Red Ring, in which case he wouldn't know anything about the situation since he was too busy being in Thalmor custody to command anything.

The fact that it is phrased, "... he was allowed to escape..." implies quite a bit. I believe that it is safe to say that having been captured in Cyrodiil, he never left Cyrodiil during his period of captivity. After the BotRR, there really aren't any organized Thalmor forces remaining in Cyrodiil; any survivors and supply line postings would be concentrating on getting out of Cyrodiil to some secure AD-controlled area. And that "allowed" suggests that Ulfric's "escape" was orchestrated; those aren't the actions of group of routers/retreaters focused on retreat. So Ulfric was captured before the IC fell initially, and his escape would have been before the BotRR. "Interrogation" for Thalmor = torture I believe it is safe to say. So once Ulfric gets back to an Imperial-controlled area, after a debrief, they very likely sent him back to Windhelm to recuperate. That puts him in Skyrim before the WDC, which puts him in a position to be at Markarth before the returning Imperial Legion could get there. It also explains how, despite having been a legionnaire, Ulfric's forces are designated as Nord Stormcloaks rather than some Legion unit comprised of Nords from Skyrim. (Which also saves Ulfric from a mutiny charge when he later refuses to let the Legion into Markarth until they agree to his terms.)

Edited September 6, 2015 by CaptainPatch

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

So now Legate Justianus Quintius is always correct about everything, just because he wrote a book? He was only a legate in the war, and like fraquar said, he acknowledges that some of what he writes is opinion and conjecture.

 

Ulfric said that the Empire died the day it surrendered to the AD, so he obviously believes they should have kept fighting, and since he believes they should have kept fighting, he must believe that they could have kept fighting. I never said Ulfric knew anything about Hammerfell, other than they won their war with the AD. The Great War is a history book written by a Imperial legate who might be biased towards the Empire, and who acknowledges that some of what he writes is opinion.

 

@CaptainPatch

 

You assume that Ulfric was in Skyrim when the Empire surrendered, but during the battle for Solitude Galmar says ""You were there with US. You saw it. The day the Empire signed that damn treaty was the day the Empire died." So Ulfric must have been there when the Empire surrendered, or Galmar would have said "You were there with ME."