Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

No objections, other than all the Redguards who were there, and some of the Nords who were there(not just Ulfric and Galmar).

 

The Redguards stopped the AD from advancing, and held them in one place for five years, why can't the Empire do that too? They had less of their territory occupied, more places to draw resources and troops from, but apparently they are about to be destroyed, despite the Redguards fighting the AD to a draw, with only half of a province to draw supplies and troops from.

 

The Empire was already prepared for war, they had been fighting for 4 years, so they didn't need to prepare. Skyrim has just had a war fought across most of its cities (5 out of nine), instead of Cyrodil's 3 out of nine. They also can only resources from themselves, instead of the Empire having three extra provinces to help supply them.

 

Ulfric is strengthening Skyrim's position by separating it from an Empire that can't even prevent drug lords from tearing cities apart:

 

Cheydinhal has errupted into violece and chaos, like so many other cities before it.

 

27th of Hearthfire, 4E 188. The situation in Bravil grows more dire. The city has erupted in violence, due to a war of control being waged by Cyrodiil's two largest skooma traffickers.

 

27th of Sun's Height, 4E 188. Wayrest is lost. The city fell to corsairs, and it's just a matter of time before the Sanctuary is breached.

 

@CaptainPatch

 

I know there are lots of legates, that is why I was questioning their high rank. But I do see your point, legate is probably meant to command a thousand men, but gameplay restricts that.

 

The word "us" in Galmar's dialogue means that at least one person was with Galmar in the IC, and since he is talking to Rikke she isn't the other person, and since Tullius is on the other side he probably isn't the other person, so Ulfric must have been the other person referred to by the "us".

 

TMII proposed the WGC to the AD. It wasn't like the AD were giving him one last chance to surrender, he was surrendering to the AD. He could have asked for better terms, and if those were rejected, then went with the WGC, but he didn't. Even if the legion was in such bad of a shape that it could not fight because everyone was wounded, the AD wouldn't know that, and TMII could try to negotiate on fairly even ground.

[CaptainPatch]

The word "us" in Galmar's dialogue means that at least one person was with Galmar in the IC, and since he is talking to Rikke she isn't the other person, and since Tullius is on the other side he probably isn't the other person, so Ulfric must have been the other person referred to by the "us".

 

TMII proposed the WGC to the AD. It wasn't like the AD were giving him one last chance to surrender, he was surrendering to the AD. He could have asked for better terms, and if those were rejected, then went with the WGC, but he didn't. Even if the legion was in such bad of a shape that it could not fight because everyone was wounded, the AD wouldn't know that, and TMII could try to negotiate on fairly even ground.

I'm not contesting the fact that either was in Cyrodiil. What I question is the when being referred to. Ulfric was pointedly out of it while he was a prisoner of the Thalmor. But there is literally no word as to what he was doing after his escape until he shows up in Markarth with a following of Stormcloaks. If he was in the IC at the time of the WGC, then he wouldn't have had time to gather those Stormcloaks, march to Markarth, boot out the Forsworn, all before the Skyrim Legion returned to Skyrim. At best, he would have gotten to Windhelm at about the same time that the Skyrim Legion reached Markarth.

 

You can see that the WGC wasn't already laid out prior to be enacted. The original form had it that the Empire was surrendering the southern half of Hammerfell. But there needed to be enough to have news go to Hammerfell as to what was being proposed, and then for the Redguard response to the proposal to be sent back to the IC informing the emperor that they refused to stop fighting. Then it would have been necessary to amend the proposal to have the Empire remove Hammerfell from the Empire entirely, leaving it to its own fate. [That is, IF the Emperor accepted that initial Redguard rejection. The more likely reaction would have been to have a series of communiques going back and forth where the Emperor first commands, then cajoles, then pleads with the Redguards to accept his dictate. It would be no simple reaction to choose to lop off 1/4 of the Empire just because some hotheads refuse to obey an Imperial decree. I'm sure that the Emperor was loathe to do so, not until he was absolutely certain that the Redguards fully intended to rebel before they would comply. To be that certain requires a substantial amount of communication. And communication in that situation takes time.]

 

Uhm, after BotRR, the AD had no army in Cyrodiil. That doesn't mean they didn't have any spies there. If it's one thing that we know about the Thalmor, they have an extensive Intelligence-gathering network.You can be certain that they had at least a fair idea that the Imperial forces were in need of time to repair itself.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

No objections, other than all the Redguards who were there, and some of the Nords who were there(not just Ulfric and Galmar).

 

The Redguards stopped the AD from advancing, and held them in one place for five years, why can't the Empire do that too? They had less of their territory occupied, more places to draw resources and troops from, but apparently they are about to be destroyed, despite the Redguards fighting the AD to a draw, with only half of a province to draw supplies and troops from.

 

The Empire was already prepared for war, they had been fighting for 4 years, so they didn't need to prepare. Skyrim has just had a war fought across most of its cities (5 out of nine), instead of Cyrodil's 3 out of nine. They also can only resources from themselves, instead of the Empire having three extra provinces to help supply them.

 

Ulfric is strengthening Skyrim's position by separating it from an Empire that can't even prevent drug lords from tearing cities apart:

 

Cheydinhal has errupted into violece and chaos, like so many other cities before it.

 

27th of Hearthfire, 4E 188. The situation in Bravil grows more dire. The city has erupted in violence, due to a war of control being waged by Cyrodiil's two largest skooma traffickers.

 

27th of Sun's Height, 4E 188. Wayrest is lost. The city fell to corsairs, and it's just a matter of time before the Sanctuary is breached.

 

@CaptainPatch

 

I know there are lots of legates, that is why I was questioning their high rank. But I do see your point, legate is probably meant to command a thousand men, but gameplay restricts that.

 

The word "us" in Galmar's dialogue means that at least one person was with Galmar in the IC, and since he is talking to Rikke she isn't the other person, and since Tullius is on the other side he probably isn't the other person, so Ulfric must have been the other person referred to by the "us".

 

TMII proposed the WGC to the AD. It wasn't like the AD were giving him one last chance to surrender, he was surrendering to the AD. He could have asked for better terms, and if those were rejected, then went with the WGC, but he didn't. Even if the legion was in such bad of a shape that it could not fight because everyone was wounded, the AD wouldn't know that, and TMII could try to negotiate on fairly even ground.

 

 

I apologize in advance for the incoming caps, but this is past frustrating.

 

Pardon, but any Redguards who were at Imperial City are obviously not the same ones who were fighting simultaneously in Hammerfell.

 

The Empire couldn't 'do that too' BECAUSE THE EMPIRE WAS OUT OF TROOPS. Seriously, you just keep pulling 'facts' out of your butt. "Didn't need to prepare" ASSUMES THE EMPIRE HAS READY TROOPS AND AVAILABLE SUPPLY. You are essentially saying that the Emperor had the resources to continue but just got bored of fighting and quit for the fun of it. Your scenario makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Ulfric was only fighting what the Empire had available, not the AD. There are no Thalmor troops supporting the Empire in the Civil War. That Ulfric stands any chance at all, with only half of Skyrim to draw upon SHOWS HOW WEAK THE IMPERIAL SITUATION IS. That DISPROVES your point, rather than proving it.

 

Cheydenhal erupted into violence like so many cities before it, Bravil and Wayrest are lost BECAUSE THE EMPIRE HAS INSUFFICIENT TROOPS TO MAINTAIN THE PEACE INTERNALLY. Seriously, your points don't mean what you think they mean. If the Empire doesn't have sufficient troop strength to keep the peace internally, why are you so convinced that they have enough resources to fight a foreign war?

 

There is no record of Galmar having been captured, so 'us' could have been 'Galmar and the other non-captured stormcloaks.' Galmar is very bullish and shows very little understanding of strategy, often insisting on very aggressive moves that even Ulfric knows would be unwise.

 

Even if TMII proposed the Concordat, if the Empire was in no shape to continue then they were best off negotiating immediately after the victory. If they waited and the AD called their bluff, their lack of available troops would have been revealed pretty much immediately. On the other hand, by immediately calling for peace talks, they do so while presenting the illusion that they could still hold their own. Could it have been negotiated better? Maybe, but easy to criticize when you are not at the table, and it isn't your responsibility, and lives are not in your hands.

[Elimc]

@CaptainPatch

 

Ulfric would have had six years to get back to Skyrim and retake the Reach, since the WGC was signed in 4E175 and the Markarth Incident was in 4E181. Of course, if you take the Bear of Markarth as fact, then the Markarth Incident happened in 4E176, which still gives Ulfric a year to get back. But I don't take that book as fact.

 

I fail to see how any of this is relevant, because even if the treaty was signed in late 4E175, Ulfric still had five years to get back to Skyrim.

 

@Kimmera

 

The Redguards in the IC would have left Cyrodil to go back to Hammerfell after the Battle of the Red Ring.

 

The Empire wasn't out of troops, they had the equivalent of 2.5 legions left. Even if they wouldn't be as effective grouped in smaller legions, they would still be able to fight. The person who wrote the Great War is an Imperial legate, he is probably biased towards the Empire and TMII. Seriously, if the Empire had exhausted every resources they had in their five provinces, how could one of those provinces go on and fight the AD to a draw? The Empire quit because TMII decided is wasn't worth it for Cyrodil to fight for Skyrim's religion and Hammerfell's territory. I know there are people in Cyrodil who worship Talos, but practically every Nord does.

 

My point is that the Empire was strong, but is getting weaker and collapsing in on itself, so for Skyrim to survive it needs to leave.

 

The Empire is weak now, but it wasn't earlier. And if the Empire is so weak, then how are they supposed to defeat the AD at all?

 

There are no other non-captured stormcloaks there, so who would the "us" be referring to? Galmar not being as good of a strategist as Ulfric is irrelevant to this point.

 

It is also easy to give up territory and religion when you know neither of those will effect you in the slightest.

[kimmera]

 

 

@Kimmera

 

The Redguards in the IC would have left Cyrodil to go back to Hammerfell after the Battle of the Red Ring.

 

The Empire wasn't out of troops, they had the equivalent of 2.5 legions left. Even if they wouldn't be as effective grouped in smaller legions, they would still be able to fight. The person who wrote the Great War is an Imperial legate, he is probably biased towards the Empire and TMII. Seriously, if the Empire had exhausted every resources they had in their five provinces, how could one of those provinces go on and fight the AD to a draw? The Empire quit because TMII decided is wasn't worth it for Cyrodil to fight for Skyrim's religion and Hammerfell's territory. I know there are people in Cyrodil who worship Talos, but practically every Nord does.

 

My point is that the Empire was strong, but is getting weaker and collapsing in on itself, so for Skyrim to survive it needs to leave.

 

The Empire is weak now, but it wasn't earlier. And if the Empire is so weak, then how are they supposed to defeat the AD at all?

 

There are no other non-captured stormcloaks there, so who would the "us" be referring to? Galmar not being as good of a strategist as Ulfric is irrelevant to this point.

 

It is also easy to give up territory and religion when you know neither of those will effect you in the slightest.

 

So let me get this straight. The Empire won but had its own troops decimated, yet you assume they just sent any Redguard units home? Now you have even lower troop levels in Cyrodiil, and the Hammerfell victories involve the troops already there, plus what was sent home. Again, even if you are correct, that makes the Empire's situation worse, not better.

 

So the Empire had 2.5 Legions, in full supply (of which you have no evidence) and yet has massive civil disorder all through Cyrodiil? The Empire 'was strong' but is getting weaker... because why, exactly?

 

Elimc : Hammerfell has had plenty of time to rebuild and will be at full strength ready to go! The Empire was strong but decided to tear down everything and make itself weaker for no apparent reason (other than some guy with the forum name Elimc needs it to be true to make his arguments work)!

 

And now you yourself seem to have been there, since you apparently know exactly who was there......

 

Giving up territory wouldn't affect the Empire? So why, exactly, are they fighting to try to hang on to Skyrim, since losing territory wouldn't affect them?

 

You are just blathering now, and frankly, I suspect you are just trolling.

Edited September 7, 2015 by kimmera

[CaptainPatch]

@CaptainPatch

 

Ulfric would have had six years to get back to Skyrim and retake the Reach, since the WGC was signed in 4E175 and the Markarth Incident was in 4E181. Of course, if you take the Bear of Markarth as fact, then the Markarth Incident happened in 4E176, which still gives Ulfric a year to get back. But I don't take that book as fact.

 

I fail to see how any of this is relevant, because even if the treaty was signed in late 4E175, Ulfric still had five years to get back to Skyrim.

 

@Kimmera

 

The Redguards in the IC would have left Cyrodil to go back to Hammerfell after the Battle of the Red Ring.

 

The Empire wasn't out of troops, they had the equivalent of 2.5 legions left. Even if they wouldn't be as effective grouped in smaller legions, they would still be able to fight. The person who wrote the Great War is an Imperial legate, he is probably biased towards the Empire and TMII. Seriously, if the Empire had exhausted every resources they had in their five provinces, how could one of those provinces go on and fight the AD to a draw? The Empire quit because TMII decided is wasn't worth it for Cyrodil to fight for Skyrim's religion and Hammerfell's territory. I know there are people in Cyrodil who worship Talos, but practically every Nord does.

 

My point is that the Empire was strong, but is getting weaker and collapsing in on itself, so for Skyrim to survive it needs to leave.

 

The Empire is weak now, but it wasn't earlier. And if the Empire is so weak, then how are they supposed to defeat the AD at all?

 

There are no other non-captured stormcloaks there, so who would the "us" be referring to? Galmar not being as good of a strategist as Ulfric is irrelevant to this point.

 

It is also easy to give up territory and religion when you know neither of those will effect you in the slightest.

Where are you getting your timeline?

THE GREAT WAR

4E 171- 4E 175

 

The White-Gold Concordat: The White-Gold Concordat was a treaty signed in 4E 175

 

The Markarth Incident: Their control over the hold lasted for two years, from 4E 174 to 4E 176, and was administered relatively peacefully, with only a few of the harshest Nord landowners put to death.

In 4E 176 Igmund, the son of the deposed Jarl, promised Ulfric Stormcloak free worship of Talos in exchange for putting down the rebellion and retaking the Reach. Igmund knew this promise was in direct violation of the White-Gold Concordat,

Where are you getting that the Markarth Incident too k place in 4E 181? [As a side note, if the Empire was in such great shape after the BotRR, why wasn't one of those 2.5 Legions sent straight away to Markarth to suppress the Reachmen's (pre-Forsworn) rebellion?]

 

The Redguards in the IC were in the Legion. They don't have freedom of movement until their term of enlistment expires. That means that they couldn't just up and leave without being classified as deserters. Deserters get executed, or lengthy prison terms.

 

FOUR provinces: Cyrodiil, High Rock, Hammerfell, and Skyrim. And one doesn't fight until EVERY resource has been exhausted. If that was the case, the empire is dead, with nothing left to provide Commerce and a collapsed Economy. What good is pride and honor if everyone starves to death? And everyone aged 16-60 has died? You can't eat pride, and honor doesn't provide fuel for the hearthfires in the winter.

 

If the Empire is so strong, how did it manage to lose the Imperial City?

 

how are they supposed to defeat the AD at all?

By using the kind of arguments your using when suggesting that Skyrim on its own is capable blocking or defeating the AD all on its own?

 

"...in the slightest? You think that TM2 didn't realize he was going to get negative reactions from Hammerfell and Skyrim? The specter of rebellions in both provinces was an immediate possibility. The ONLY counterargument to that outrage would be, "Just give us enough time and we can get things back to the way they were before the WGC." As in, "...after we win the 2nd Great War." Unfortunately for the Empire, neither the Redguards or Stormcloaks were willing to give TM2 that time.

Edited September 8, 2015 by CaptainPatch

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

I assume the Redguard troops would have gone home on their own once Hammerfell declared independence/was kicked out of the Empire.

 

The Empire has been getting weaker since Oblivion, because of many things. Also, the civil disorder started in 4E188, well after the Great War and before the Skyrim Civil War.

 

We have proof that the Empire is getting weaker, and nothing about Hammerfell, so everything about it is speculation.

 

Giving up half of Hammerfell wouldn't hurt Cyrodil as much as fighting for another year.

[CaptainPatch]

@Kimmera

 

I assume the Redguard troops would have gone home on their own once Hammerfell declared independence/was kicked out of the Empire.

Enlistment in a national military is irrespective of citizenship. A person enlists for a set period of time. (2 years, 4 years, 5 years, 10 years, etc.) That is a formal contract between nation and soldier. If the soldier breaches the contract by leaving before the end of his enlistment there are severe consequences. The absent soldier is deemed a deserter, and in certain (most) circumstances there are severe penalties. (Execution or lengthy prison sentences "at hard labor".) Any Redguards desiring to leave before their term of service is completed would be knowingly risking those consequences. They would have the option of petitioning the High Command and/or Emperor requesting that their release from service be granted. But all things considered, I can't imagine the higher ups being sympathetic to their situation.

Edited September 8, 2015 by CaptainPatch

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

I assume the Redguard troops would have gone home on their own once Hammerfell declared independence/was kicked out of the Empire.

 

 

Hammerfell was kicked out of the Empire, not the Redguard race. There are Altmer, Dunmer, Bosmer, Argonian and Kajit citizens of the Imperium.

 

The Empire has been getting weaker since Oblivion, because of many things. Also, the civil disorder started in 4E188, well after the Great War and before the Skyrim Civil War.

 

 

Oblivion was long before The Great War, so completely irrelevant to the situation of the Empire after. That is a red herring. The civil disorder started after the Great War, when the Empire was low on troops due to war losses.

 

We have proof that the Empire is getting weaker, and nothing about Hammerfell, so everything about it is speculation.

 

 

Your theories regarding Hammerfell are pulled completely out of your butt.

 

Giving up half of Hammerfell wouldn't hurt Cyrodil as much as fighting for another year.

 

 

If half of Hammerfell (the OCCUPIED half) was given up to spare Cyrodiil out of anything other than necessity, why didn't the Empire just hand that territory over when the first demands were made before the war? If there had been no war at all, Cyrodiil would have been spared completely.

 

I'll try this again. The troops that were in Hammerfell WERE THOSE THAT REFUSED/AVOIDED THE EMPEROR's COMMAND TO COME TO IMPERIAL CITY. Thus they were effectively rebel troops already disobeying the Emperor's command and thus the Emperor had NO troops in Hammerfell. The only troops the Emperor could rely on were the partial legions remaining in Cyrodiil, and we don't even know if he knew of the successes in Hammerfell at the time. He had been told all that were left there were troops too old and weak for the journey to Cyrodiil. Based on the information that had been given to the Emperor, Hammerfell was already as good as lost. Unless he had some other source of information, despite sitting in a camp somewhere outside Imperial City rather than inside IC with all its resources, based on the information he had, he was saving the rest of Hammerfell. The half he 'gave up' was already in enemy possession.

[CaptainPatch]

and we don't even know if he knew of the successes in Hammerfell at the time.

What successes in Hammerfell? The siege of Hegathe was broken in early 4E 173, well before the BotRR by more than a year. The city of Skaven was occupied by the AD and then abandoned by them before that. In the way of "successes" in Hammerfell, that's it. And the emperor undoubtedly knew about those before he contemplated the WGC. After the Hegathe siege was broken the Front Lines between the Redguards and the Thalmor didn't move for the next seven years. (When the 2nd Treaty of Stros M'Kai was signed in 4E 180.)