Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[kimmera]

 

and we don't even know if he knew of the successes in Hammerfell at the time.

What successes in Hammerfell? The siege of Hegathe was broken in early 4E 173, well before the BotRR by more than a year. The city of Skaven was occupied by the AD and then abandoned by them before that. In the way of "successes" in Hammerfell, that's it. And the emperor undoubtedly knew about those before he contemplated the WGC. After the Hegathe siege was broken the Front Lines between the Redguards and the Thalmor didn't move for the next seven years. (When the 2nd Treaty of Stros M'Kai was signed in 4E 180.)

 

 

Per "The Great War"

 

These veterans formed the core of the army that eventually drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the Alik'r late in 174, taking heavy losses on their retreat from harassing attacks by the Alik'r warriors.

 

The Hammerfell forces had some success a few months before the Battle of the Red Ring 'late in 174' vs 'the 30th of Rain's Hand.' The Concordat was signed a few months after the victory 'late in 175.'

[CaptainPatch]

Per "The Great War"

 

These veterans formed the core of the army that eventually drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the Alik'r late in 174, taking heavy losses on their retreat from harassing attacks by the Alik'r warriors.

 

The Hammerfell forces had some success a few months before the Battle of the Red Ring 'late in 174' vs 'the 30th of Rain's Hand.' The Concordat was signed a few months after the victory 'late in 175.'

That sort of sounds like spin to me. There was no climactic battle that drove the AD out of Skaven. It seems like the Thalmor decided for themselves they didn't want to keep Skaven. Then it became a March of Thirst in reverse. Thereafter, you have the Alikr taking credit for the inevitable environmental casualties that come from crossing a desert (for the second time).

 

[i do admit that I had the chronology wrong though. The AD abandoning Skaven occurred after the siege of Hegathe was broken.]

Edited September 8, 2015 by CaptainPatch

[kimmera]

Possibly it is spin, however the AD retreating, regardless of their reasons, is noteworthy, especially since they later decided to stop retreating and hold the line for five years.

[CaptainPatch]

Possibly it is spin, however the AD retreating, regardless of their reasons, is noteworthy, especially since they later decided to stop retreating and hold the line for five years.

That's the thing: for five years, they neither tried to expand their beachhead nor give ground. My theory is that Lady Arennelya got carried away and pursued a fleeing enemy, until she found herself on the wrong side of the Alikr. Then she was required to return to the original plan of sticking to the southern coast. (And eliminate an untenable line of supply across several hundred miles of desert.)

[Elimc]

@CaptainPatch

 

Declaring independence from an Empire also usually starts a war, so this is obviously not usual. Unless the Empire wanted to execute about a fifth of their soldiers (Redguards making up a quarter of the Empire, minus the ones left behind in Hammerfell), they would have to let the Redguards leave.

 

The AD had been stopped in their tracks, and would have been driven back if the Empire had been able to keep Decianus in Hammerfell.

 

You are incorrect about Lady Arennlya's situation, because she never did accomplish her objective. She came close, but was defeated in Hegathe and then pushed back across the Alik'r desert.

 

@Kimmera

 

The civil disorder started quite a few years after the Great War, so the Empire was successfully keeping the peace for about a decade.

 

As are your theories about Hammerfell.

 

Because at that point, Hammerfell wasn't occupied, and if he gave in to that demand, what was to stop the AD from just making another, and another, until the Empire was substantially weakened and war started.

 

You are assuming Decianus kept information vital to knowing how the war was going secret from the Empire. He could have just said that the Redguard militias were stronger than expected, but I doubt he would have sabotaged the Emperor's knowledge of Hammerfell.

 

Really, just because I disagree with you on this doesn't mean I am a troll.

[CaptainPatch]

Elimc, on 08 Sept 2015 - 2:57 PM, said:

@CaptainPatch

 

Declaring independence from an Empire also usually starts a war, so this is obviously not usual. Unless the Empire wanted to execute about a fifth of their soldiers (Redguards making up a quarter of the Empire, minus the ones left behind in Hammerfell), they would have to let the Redguards leave.

Except that Hammerfell did NOT "declare independence". It was disowned by the Empire. (Like a bratty kid being booted out of the house by the parents.) And what the Redguards were doing back in Hammerfell was not at all the responsibility of any of the Redguards located in Cyrodiil. Besides those considerations, after having had a LARGE percentage of its soldiers killed or rendered unfit for military service, the last thing the Empire would do is to willingly allow a significant percentage of its few remaining soldiers to quit and walk away.

 

The AD had been stopped in their tracks, and would have been driven back if the Empire had been able to keep Decianus in Hammerfell.

Yeah, keep on telling yourself that. "We would have won if only ___________." They didn't win. THey didn't defeat the AD in any major battles for five years. There is ZERO evidence that the AD attempted to expand it's holdings after Lady Arrennelya returned to the AD's initial invasion points. The Line stayed put for five years. That's even more static than WW1 trench warfare.

 

You are incorrect about Lady Arennlya's situation, because she never did accomplish her objective. She came close, but was defeated in Hegathe and then pushed back across the Alik'r desert.

As the song goes, "Three out of four ain't bad." And please point out where it says the AD was forced out of Skaven. What catastrophic defeat did the AD suffer that forced a retreat out of Skaven and across the Alikr? These claims are sounding like, "Every morning, I force the sun to rise." You can't take credit for what was going to happen anyway. [No, wait. You are proof that it does in fact happen. Often.]

 

As are your theories about Hammerfell.

Just look at us, both of us toss theories around like they were facts. "I'll call your theory and raise you another two!"

 

Because at that point, Hammerfell wasn't occupied, and if he gave in to that demand, what was to stop the AD from just making another, and another, until the Empire was substantially weakened and war started.

I agree that it is unwise to accede to territorial demands, because giving in to one leads to having every bully in the neighborhood shaking down the victim. But refusing the demand and then losing the war + MUCH of its Military certainly didn't leave the Empire in a stronger position. Definite loss of potency involved.

 

You are assuming Decianus kept information vital to knowing how the war was going secret from the Empire. He could have just said that the Redguard militias were stronger than expected, but I doubt he would have sabotaged the Emperor's knowledge of Hammerfell.

Another big question mark. Who knows how he explained away the situation he left behind in Hammerfell?

[kimmera]

@CaptainPatch

 

Declaring independence from an Empire also usually starts a war, so this is obviously not usual. Unless the Empire wanted to execute about a fifth of their soldiers (Redguards making up a quarter of the Empire, minus the ones left behind in Hammerfell), they would have to let the Redguards leave.

 

The AD had been stopped in their tracks, and would have been driven back if the Empire had been able to keep Decianus in Hammerfell.

 

You are incorrect about Lady Arennlya's situation, because she never did accomplish her objective. She came close, but was defeated in Hegathe and then pushed back across the Alik'r desert.

 

@Kimmera

 

The civil disorder started quite a few years after the Great War, so the Empire was successfully keeping the peace for about a decade.

 

As are your theories about Hammerfell.

 

Because at that point, Hammerfell wasn't occupied, and if he gave in to that demand, what was to stop the AD from just making another, and another, until the Empire was substantially weakened and war started.

 

You are assuming Decianus kept information vital to knowing how the war was going secret from the Empire. He could have just said that the Redguard militias were stronger than expected, but I doubt he would have sabotaged the Emperor's knowledge of Hammerfell.

 

Really, just because I disagree with you on this doesn't mean I am a troll.

 

As Captain Patch said, Hammerfell did not declare independence. More importantly, the Empire doesn't kill all Altmer on sight. SKYRIM does not kill all Altmer on sight. RACE DOES NOT EQUAL NATIONALITY. The troops that came with Decanius were from Hammerfell, but they were Imperial regulars. We know this from what was left behind.

 

We don't know what would have happened in Hammerfell if Decanius had stayed back entirely, however the Battle of the Red Ring would likely have been lost or perhaps never happened, the Empire would have been pushed right back to Skyrim or perhaps surrendered unconditionally. If those troops had not returned to Cyrodiil, Cyrodiil would have been lost. There were no more troops immediately available from Skyrim, so Skyrim may well have been also lost. And in such a case, the AD would have reduced the situation to a one front war, and Hammerfell might have found a lot less success.

 

It isn't that you disagree, it is the degree to which you seem to just make statements out of nowhere, and any time lore contracts you, you say it doesn't count. Despite that you are happy to use any lore you think supports you. You are not arguing in good faith.

[Elimc]

@CaptainPatch

 

Hammerfell knew that refusing the treaty was equal to declaring independence, and they refused it anyway. Under normal circumstances the Empire would have sent in troops to force them to accept it.

 

They didn't defeat the AD, but they did fight them to a draw. Also, while the cities never changed hands, the front lines could have moved around considerably, but the author is summarizing by the time he reaches this point, and is not specific about if there were any major battles, who won them, and why the AD withdrew.

 

"These veterans formed the core of the army that eventually drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the Alik'r late in 174, taking heavy losses on their retreat from harassing attacks by the Alik'r warriors." They drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the desert, they didn't just sit by and watch the AD retreat. The AD did not simply walk back south from Skaven, they retreated while being attacked by Redguard forces.

 

The Empire hadn't lost the war until it surrendered, it's army was still in existence, it had possesion of it's capitol and most of Cyrodil, and it had just wiped out the entire main army of the AD(so maybe they went and took back Anvil and Kvatch too. But that is a maybe).

 

We don't, but I personally don't think he told the Emperor information that would harm the war effort.

 

@Kimmera

 

I know Decanius and his men were needed to win the Battle of the Red Ring, but if his one legion was defeating the AD their force in Hammerfell couldn't have been that strong.

 

I am saying it is possible that in-game authors are biased, and that when they make a claim that is disputed, like the Empire's condition after the Battle of the Red Ring, they are not always correct. Other than that, and the Bear of Markarth, which is obviously biased, I can't remember a time that I said a piece of lore doesn't count.

[CaptainPatch]

Elimc, on 08 Sept 2015 - 7:59 PM, said:

@CaptainPatch

 

Hammerfell knew that refusing the treaty was equal to declaring independence, and they refused it anyway. Under normal circumstances the Empire would have sent in troops to force them to accept it.

AGAIN, you are claiming knowledge that isn't supported by anything, anywhere, by anyone. "Hammerfell knew that refusing the treaty was equal to declaring independence." NO ONE knew anything of the sort. Not even the Emperor. He sent word of what he intended. They responded with, "Sorry, that condition is intolerable. Too much blood has been spilled to just let them have what they want, uncontested." ^^THAT is the opening round of negotiations. Hammerfell would argue for the Emperor to reconsider while the Emperor would try to explain why it was necessary. Unfortunately, the Emperor was under a tight time constraint to get a treaty accepted, so he jumped the gun and went straight to disowning Hammerfell rather than hash out an acceptable compromise. And, yes, had the Empire NOT been embroiled in a war fighting for its very existence, had Hammerfell and the Emperor not reached an agreement, the final step would be to send in the Legion to enforce the decree.

 

They didn't defeat the AD, but they did fight them to a draw. Also, while the cities never changed hands, the front lines could have moved around considerably, but the author is summarizing by the time he reaches this point, and is not specific about if there were any major battles, who won them, and why the AD withdrew.

Some minor fluctuations in the lines, yes. But not even mentioning any named battles or campaigns goes contrary to the fact that the author DID mention the siege of Hegathe and the indecisive battle near Skaven. That suggest that had there been battles on that scale or larger, he would have mentioned those as well.

 

"These veterans formed the core of the army that eventually drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the Alik'r late in 174, taking heavy losses on their retreat from harassing attacks by the Alik'r warriors." They drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the desert, they didn't just sit by and watch the AD retreat. The AD did not simply walk back south from Skaven, they retreated while being attacked by Redguard forces.

Do you not see the contradiction? The Imperial forces are supposedly "driving" the AD. However, it is the Alikr warriors inflicting "heavy losses". That sounds more like the Alikr doing all the fighting. And yet again, it wasn't the Imperials forcing the AD out of Skaven. The AD initiated the withdrawal on its own. What transpired after that point equates to the Redguards "forcing" the AD to go where it was intending to go all along. At most, the Redguards were motivating the Thalmor to complete the journey that much faster. And if the Redguards were being soooooooooo successful in driving the AD, why didn't they force them all the way into the sea? The obvious answer is, because they couldn't.

 

The Empire hadn't lost the war until it surrendered, it's army was still in existence, it had possesion of it's capitol and most of Cyrodil, and it had just wiped out the entire main army of the AD(so maybe they went and took back Anvil and Kvatch too. But that is a maybe).

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Germany didn't lose WW2 until it surrendered. Japan didn't lose WW2 until it surrendered. Both still had forces available, provided they had the will to continue the fight. So, just when is it that a nation has effectively lost the war? When it no longer has the will to continue? Or when it signs a piece of paper declaring that it surrenders?

 

I know Decanius and his men were needed to win the Battle of the Red Ring, but if his one legion was defeating the AD their force in Hammerfell couldn't have been that strong.

Again you move me to laughter or tears. Do you understand the phrase "critical mass"? This much plutonium and the nuke goes boom. Anything less, no boom. That's the Empire at BotRR: With the Hammerfell forces added,the Empire has critical mass and can win the battle. Without those additional forces, no victory is possible. Just because those Hammerfell forces were needed to win, it doesn't mean that they won the battle all on their own.

[kimmera]

Elimc, why do you assume that Decanius only commanded one legion? He was ordered to bring 'all Imperial troops' in the region. And they barely won the Battle of the Red Ring. Every soldier mattered.

 

Germany hadn't lost WWI until it surrendered, but ended up with the Treaty of Versailles anyway. Germany hadn't lost WWII until it surrendered, and ended up with the country divided and under foreign control for decades. France surrendered but did NOT lose the war, by way of many of its troops fighting on with the help of foreign powers. You place a lot of weight on the term 'surrendered' which equates to 'omg they hurt our pride.' You have no strategy other than fight.

 

The Empire's condition after the Battle of the Red Ring isn't really even disputed, other than perhaps by the forces in Hammerfell who were not in Cyrodiil so had no clue. Even Ulfric and Galmar only whine about the terms of the treaty. They don't make any comment about the legion strength.