Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[CaptainPatch]

That's a shame. I've been following this thread for a while now and I enjoy the fresh perspective your posts (from a strategic POV) have brought to the discussion.

You didn't miss much; kimmera addressed most of the important stuff that i had been typing up. But, hmm, here's something he didn't:

 

I thought that the Alik'r were just a class of Redguard warriors, like knights in medieval Europe, rather than their own faction.

 

There is no proof that the atrocities described in the 'Bear of Markarth' actually happened, especially because no one in Markarth ever mentions them, not Braig, Madanach, or Igmund. Also, there is the fact that the author says the event happened five years before it did. Or that none of the Forsworn in the Reach are mad at Ulfric, instead they are mad at Igmund. That book is obviously propaganda, especially considering that the author is an Imperial Scholar. Regardless of all that, the Empire betrayed Ulfric. The legion commander should have sent a message back to TMII, or said that he couldn't agree to the terms. Instead, he lied.

About the only description of the Alikr warriors paints them to be desert barbarians. I'm guessing they were modeled after Real World Tauoregs and Berbers that the French Foreign Legion was always sparring with.

The nomads are more primitive, either with trace-Nedic influences or stubbornly Yokudan, throwback castaways even to other Redguards. Devotees of Satakal the Serpent God are strewn among them, historically causing the A'likr border-states no end of strife.

 

Do a close comparison of authors of The Great War and The Bear of Markarth. On the one hand, we have Justianus Quintius:

Much of what is written in this book is pieced together from documents captured from the enemy during the war, interrogation of prisoners, and eyewitness accounts from surviving soldiers and Imperial officers. I myself commanded the Tenth Legion in Hammerfell and Cyrodiil until I was wounded in 175 during the assault on the Imperial City. That said, the full truth of some events may never be known. I have done my best to fill in the gaps with educated conjectures based on my experience as well as my hard-earned knowledge of the enemy.

 

He was a high-ranking officer that was there. He went to great effort to track down pertinent records, interviewed other senior officers, and cites records of interrogations of Thalmor prisoners. Now, in stark contrast we have Arrianus Arius, who is simply described as an "Imperial Scholar. His treatise reads more like an academic analysis of other existing accounts. And he tends to make some sweeping generalizations on subjects that are pointedly NOT his area of expertise. He is NOT a politician, nor a soldier. He's a scholar. I doubt very much that he ever left his comfortable office at the Imperial University while he did his research. In short, when he says

Much of what is written in this book is pieced together from documents captured from the enemy during the war, interrogation of prisoners, and eyewitness accounts from surviving soldiers and Imperial officers. I myself commanded the Tenth Legion in Hammerfell and Cyrodiil until I was wounded in 175 during the assault on the Imperial City. That said, the full truth of some events may never be known. I have done my best to fill in the gaps with educated conjectures based on my experience as well as my hard-earned knowledge of the enemy.

... he really doesn't know what he is talking about. A Legion commander and a lowly hold jarl do NOT have the authority to circumvent an Imperial treaty. Had he conducted some first-hand interviews with the principles of the Incident -- Legion commander, Igmund, Ulfric -- he might have been able to learn that tidbit. But from the tone of his treatise, it appears he didn't interview anybody. As an Academic, if The Bear of Markarth was some kind of thesis, he would have been lucky to be graded a C-.

Edited September 13, 2015 by CaptainPatch

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Imperial generals, who are the only people likely to know enough about the situation to know how the whole Imperial army is doing, besides their advisers, are likely to be biased towards the Empire.

 

Maybe the AD didn't want to officially conquer Cyrodil, but while they controlled the IC, they were probably asking for more land/money/other stuff in exchange for surrender, or TMII would have just surrendered then and not bothered to retake the city. So since they wanted more land/money/other stuff from Cyrodil, they didn't get all of it. So if they had the army to take it, why didn't they? There was nothing that said the Empire was running short on supply during the previous four years of war, only one vague quote that says they couldn't continue. Also, Cyrodil has two other untouched provinces to draw food from, and we see no sign that Skyrim can't grow plenty of food, especially in the southern regions. Two provinces could provide supply for the legion, even if 3 of Cyrodil's cities were completely destroyed.

 

If being at the battle gives you a measure of troops strength, morale and supply, then Ulfric would also be able to tell what shape the legion was in. If the legate interviewed Imperial generals they might have told him biased information so they didn't look bad.

 

@CaptainPatch

 

The Alik'r in Skyrim aren't very barbaric, and are acting under orders from the government of Hammerfell, so maybe something has changed since that was written? Also, what text it that from?

 

Legion officers would be biased toward themselves, possibly the reason that the book says the Empire was unable to continue. Maybe they actually couldn't continue, but legion generals could have influenced the author to make it seem like they had no choice but to surrender.

[CaptainPatch]

@Kimmera

 

Imperial generals, who are the only people likely to know enough about the situation to know how the whole Imperial army is doing, besides their advisers, are likely to be biased towards the Empire.

 

Maybe the AD didn't want to officially conquer Cyrodil, but while they controlled the IC, they were probably asking for more land/money/other stuff in exchange for surrender, or TMII would have just surrendered then and not bothered to retake the city. So since they wanted more land/money/other stuff from Cyrodil, they didn't get all of it. So if they had the army to take it, why didn't they? There was nothing that said the Empire was running short on supply during the previous four years of war, only one vague quote that says they couldn't continue. Also, Cyrodil has two other untouched provinces to draw food from, and we see no sign that Skyrim can't grow plenty of food, especially in the southern regions. Two provinces could provide supply for the legion, even if 3 of Cyrodil's cities were completely destroyed.

 

If being at the battle gives you a measure of troops strength, morale and supply, then Ulfric would also be able to tell what shape the legion was in. If the legate interviewed Imperial generals they might have told him biased information so they didn't look bad.

 

@CaptainPatch

 

The Alik'r in Skyrim aren't very barbaric, and are acting under orders from the government of Hammerfell, so maybe something has changed since that was written? Also, what text it that from?

 

Legion officers would be biased toward themselves, possibly the reason that the book says the Empire was unable to continue. Maybe they actually couldn't continue, but legion generals could have influenced the author to make it seem like they had no choice but to surrender.

You keep on blathering about a potential for Imperial bias, and then let Ulfric slide. Just being at a battle, such as Ulfric at the BotRR, does not automatically make him omniscient. But being in charge certainly lends a LOT of insight as to what is what and what is where. Generals and their staffs don't simply work with numbers -- "We have X while they only have Y". They have to know the details of the logistics situation -- do we have adequate food, weapons, armor, transportation, where is it all coming from, where does it have to be delivered to, where are our forces presently deployed, where do they have to be moved to to be most effective, where are the enemy forces deployed, etc., et al. That is a heckuva lot more informative than just telling the men in your command, "Charge!" Yeah, a person will naturally tend to shade his descriptions to favor his particular POV. That holds true for Ulfric as well: he sees the situation in such a way as to support _his_ argument. How much argument would he have left after saying, "Yeah, the Imperial forces were pretty shot after the BotRR, and would collapse under the pressure of a feather, so suing for peace then was the most logical course of action"? As the saying goes, "Still a man will see what he wants to see, and disregard the rest." By all indications, the decision to sue for peace was NOT a unilateral decision by TM2; he undoubtedly consulted with his advisers and generals -- which apparently did NOT include Ulfric --to determine as to just what condition the Empire was in. And from that input, decided, "The best terms we are ever likely to get would be right NOW."

 

Here's a mental exercise for you: Suppose the USA (pop @325 million) were to conquer Europe (pop whatever). How many soldiers would be required to adequately garrison ALL of Europe, knowing that the Europeans hated the USA for having conquered Europe? THAT is the problem with conquering an entire empire, all at once.

 

The source for Alikr info was Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

Imperial generals, who are the only people likely to know enough about the situation to know how the whole Imperial army is doing, besides their advisers, are likely to be biased towards the Empire.

 

Maybe the AD didn't want to officially conquer Cyrodil, but while they controlled the IC, they were probably asking for more land/money/other stuff in exchange for surrender, or TMII would have just surrendered then and not bothered to retake the city. So since they wanted more land/money/other stuff from Cyrodil, they didn't get all of it. So if they had the army to take it, why didn't they? There was nothing that said the Empire was running short on supply during the previous four years of war, only one vague quote that says they couldn't continue. Also, Cyrodil has two other untouched provinces to draw food from, and we see no sign that Skyrim can't grow plenty of food, especially in the southern regions. Two provinces could provide supply for the legion, even if 3 of Cyrodil's cities were completely destroyed.

 

If being at the battle gives you a measure of troops strength, morale and supply, then Ulfric would also be able to tell what shape the legion was in. If the legate interviewed Imperial generals they might have told him biased information so they didn't look bad.

 

@CaptainPatch

 

The Alik'r in Skyrim aren't very barbaric, and are acting under orders from the government of Hammerfell, so maybe something has changed since that was written? Also, what text it that from?

 

Legion officers would be biased toward themselves, possibly the reason that the book says the Empire was unable to continue. Maybe they actually couldn't continue, but legion generals could have influenced the author to make it seem like they had no choice but to surrender.

 

 

So the Generals were spouting PR lines to a Legate investigating the situation internally? And the interrogation documents and line soldiers interviewed, everyone else interviewed just fell into line with this grand conspiracy?

 

Meanwhile, you insist that noble Ulfric, savior of us all has no biases whatsoever, has a perfectly clear mind with no personal agenda other than altruism, and (even though Ulfric never disputes The Great War in game) sees the situation clearly, backing you up silently.

 

Again, this is 'The proof Ulfric is right is that if he is wrong he is very wrong and since he can't be that wrong, he must be right, and all other evidence must be wrong.'

 

Turn your second point around. If TMII was as surrender-happy as you claim, why re-take IC? If he was going to just give up, why not simply do so when the capital was taken ala France? Re-taking the capital was proof that he was willing to fight as long as he felt he still could. And there is NO evidence of any AD demands or peace offers while they held the White Gold Tower. You are pulling that out of your butt, one more thing to add to the list of evidence you make up out of nowhere.

 

You really don't get it. Cyrodiil is an EXPORTER of food. Other provinces DEPEND ON CYRODIIL for food. Cyrodiil falling doesn't mean those regions (which include Skyrim) would suddenly have surplus crop production out of nowhere. To the contrary, they would have starvation due to reduced food shipments from Cyrodiil. Again, this isn't Civ. It isn't a uniform world where every region is completely self sufficient. It is a relatively realistic world with relatively realistic trade and supply. It isn't just the troops that have to be fed.

 

The Legate didn't just interview generals. And was wounded in battle so would have seen first hand the casualty situation.

[fraquar]

If the best terms they could ever hope to get after winning the Battle of Red Ring and destroying an entire AD army are the identical terms they refused which started the war - what the hell did they fight it for in the first place? Fear their own subjects would rebel? Well, they have/are rebelling - Hammerfell left and Skyrim is in a Civil War - 30 years later.

 

30 years, that's Ulfric's and anyone else who fought in the Great War's entire adult life - and nothing has changed. Can't say I blame them for starting the whole bloody Civil War - Skyrim seems to be perfectly fine with the fact the Thalmor are allowed to purge those they see fit on Imperial soil.

[kimmera]

If the best terms they could ever hope to get after winning the Battle of Red Ring and destroying an entire AD army are the identical terms they refused which started the war - what the hell did they fight it for in the first place? Fear their own subjects would rebel? Well, they have/are rebelling - Hammerfell left and Skyrim is in a Civil War - 30 years later.

 

30 years, that's Ulfric's and anyone else who fought in the Great War's entire adult life - and nothing has changed. Can't say I blame them for starting the whole bloody Civil War - Skyrim seems to be perfectly fine with the fact the Thalmor are allowed to purge those they see fit on Imperial soil.

 

Neither side knew the other's troop strengths with certainty at the start of the war, and yes, if the terms had been accepted without a fight, there would have been widespread rebellion.

 

Fighting the war means they at least tried. And the Thalmor purges didn't start until after the Markarth Incident where Ulfric tried to blackmail the Empire into allowing open Talos worship and thus waving a 'we're still here' flag over every Talos worshiper for the Thalmor to see.

 

By the way, if the rebellion happened without a war, then they would have been even weaker against the AD, if the AD subsequently invaded after all. In that situation, they would likely have simply lost everything. The AD would wait until the civil wars had killed as many Imperial, Skyrim and Redguard troops as possible, and then stepped in to mop up.

Edited September 13, 2015 by kimmera

[fraquar]

Given that scenario, you have to fight on - otherwise it's a lose-lose proposition. Given the terms, it's seems apparent that neither side knew the troop strengths of the other even after - otherwise the AD would have likely asked for even more given they had the superiority even in defeat at Red Ring.

 

When you put everything together, it doesn't make much sense. Here the Empire is parading an enemy General on display for 30 days, yet they act like they don't have any other alternative but to accept what is essentially surrender? The AD is perfectly fine with the fact the Empire did such a thing in the first place?

 

Empire should have just given McAullife's response to any mention of surrender/treaty after Red Ring.

[kimmera]

That was the whole point of negotiating then. In re-taking Imperial City, the Empire gave an illusion of strength. If they had tried to fight on beyond that, their lack of remaining troop strength would have been revealed, and the AD would have had an opportunity to demand more or take over completely.

 

Continuing to fight would only have worked if the AD were likewise completely out of troops, but since they had enough to garrison Solitude, which wasn't even contested ground, it seems safe to assume that they still had reserves to draw upon. Moreover, they still had full supply since the fighting never touched their soil.

[CaptainPatch]

Empire should have just given McAullife's response to any mention of surrender/treaty after Red Ring.

But McAuliffe knew that the Allies still had a tremendous amount of resources available, while the Germans were "all in" on the gamble. Time was literally on the Allied side: All McAuliffe had to do was hold out until the Allies brought enough pressure to bear to break the siege. A key factor for the Battle was the weather being overcast, grounding all aircraft. But weather DOES change eventually, and when it did, Allied air power would be able to reassert itself. And once that happened, the German gamble was totally lost. OTOH, the Empire had only to look at the numbers to realize it was exhausted, Old Mother Hubbard's Cupboard was bare. Meanwhile, the AD would be back once it "caught its second wind".

[Elimc]

@CaptainPatch

 

I said that you had a point about Ulfric, but that the same thing applies to the author because a legate out in the field would only know the condition of his own legion, not all the other legions. Also, the legate was wounded during the Battle of the Red Ring, so he would have been in command after the Empire retook the IC, so he wouldn't have any idea what was going on. He would have to completely rely on Imperial generals to provide information.

 

It doesn't take as many troops to march in and burn all the cities in all the human provinces, and then repeat that every few years. It takes even less to march an army up to the Admantine Tower, which is the only tower left active that is responsible for holding NIRN together (unless you think the WG Tower was reactivated by Akatosh, but the Admantine Tower is still important).

 

@Kimmera

 

The generals could have told him to write that the Empire couldn't continue instead of wouldn't continue, since the legate was writing a book that would be read widely, they wouldn't want people getting the idea that the Empire is full of cowards. Like you said, if generals told him that the Empire couldn't continue, why would he listen to a captive AD soldier, or a few soldiers (like Ulfric). We really need more than one book to make an accurate judgement about the Great War.

 

Ulfric wouldn't know any more than the legate, but since he might have been a legate himself, or talked to his legate, he might know as much as his legate. Ulfric saying the Empire should have continued is the same as him saying the Empire could have continued.

 

TMII might have wanted to retake the IC to get terms that wouldn't harm Cyrodil as much as it's provinces, or maybe he thought the AD was going to betray him after he signed a treaty and wanted to make them more cautious.

 

While an attack on the AD is not a guaranteed victory, if the AD has the troops you claim it does then a surrender, or even a peace treaty that lets them weaken the Empire, is the equivalent of suicide. The AD will grow stronger while the Empire grows weaker, and by the time the second Great War starts the AD will roll through the Empire with ease. If you keep fighting, you have a chance, if you sign a treaty, you let them play their long game and they will slowly but surely destroy you.