Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[GetTheJojDone]

 

 

Imperials planned and partial succeeded on killing Ulfric and anyone who happened to be in the area at the time of his capture. What is there long to think about? I didn't choose to become executed for the better of Skyrim as a Redguard (not Stormcloak member and pure bystander, same as Lokir)...

 

 

I assume you would have joined the empire if you where caught in a stormcloak ambush and taken as an enemy by one of their officers instead? (especially being a foreigner)

 

 

Jarl Balgruuf is on the side of Whiterun. Without the Stormcloaks they would be already under control of the Imperials and the guy on the market long dead (or turned)?

 

In the original post the OP stated, you should wait until you know more about both sides. It doesn't change facts, without the dragon attack you would be lying dead in Helgen.

 

I have seen or found no execution ever practiced by the Stormcloaks. Maybe they don't have to?

 

 

I don't know why you mentioned Jarl Balgruuf but he's only neutral in the beginning because he has yet to make his mind up (I think it speaks volumes about his objectivity for not immediately siding with the Empire, given that he's been a rival of Ulfric's since they were young). Balgruuf's neutrality has nothing to do with the Stormcloaks. In fact, whichever side you take in the Civil War, he always sides with the Imperials because the Stormcloaks (who install the senile old Companion, Vignar Gray-Mane as Jarl if they are successful) attack his city. And by the "guy on the market" I presume you mean Heimskr? No, Heimskr continues to preach regardless of who controls Whiterun, as do the various other Talos preachers in Stormcloak cities (at the very least, their shrines aren't taken down and they don't suffer any reprisals). Not sure what you mean by "turned", likening the Imperials to vampires is hardly objective.

 

I've had Skyrim for years, I've read every book, done every quest, and talked to pretty much everyone there is to talk to. I think I've played long enough to know about both sides (and yes, I've played both sides). I was immediately suspicious of the Stormcloaks because all my friends who had the game before me sided with them, and I've never trusted popular judgement. I played the Stormcloak side a few times and, needless to say, I was unimpressed with what I saw.

 

I don't know why Stormcloak players get so hung up over the Imperial torture room in Helgen Keep, as if its the only one. Almost every one of the nine occupiable forts in Skyrim has some form of torture room (usually in the prison) that, judging by the blood, is used by both the Stormcloaks and Imperials, whichever side controls the fort. So let's not pretend that the Stormcloaks are blameless martyrs, here.

Edited September 25, 2014 by GetTheJojDone

[MidbossVyers]

Actually, if you patch the game, any city taken over by the Empire instantly jails all open Talos worshipers. Look at the Bugs section.

[kradus]

 

Jarl Balgruuf is on the side of Whiterun. Without the Stormcloaks they would be already under control of the Imperials and the guy on the market long dead (or turned)?

 

In the original post the OP stated, you should wait until you know more about both sides. It doesn't change facts, without the dragon attack you would be lying dead in Helgen.

 

I have seen or found no execution ever practiced by the Stormcloaks. Maybe they don't have to?

 

 

What? The fact that you never see stormcloaks moving prisioners around kind of speaks for itself, and is a very rotten attitude. Unless you think the stormcloaks are letting the enemy go whenever they win a fight? Or maybe they never won a battle? Or maybe the legionaries fight to the death every time? You decide.

Edited September 25, 2014 by kradus

[Lachdonin]

 

Imperials planned and partial succeeded on killing Ulfric and anyone who happened to be in the area at the time of his capture. What is there long to think about? I didn't choose to become executed for the better of Skyrim as a Redguard (not Stormcloak member and pure bystander, same as Lokir)...

 

 

Then why not execute him on the spot? Why transport him at all? And why head to Cyrodiil when his base of operations, in Solitude, was closer and far easier to reach? Particularly when all the nobility in Solitude wanted him dead anyway, it made a far better suited destination than the Imperial City, which we KNOW has people who are against the Concordant and would support Ulfric.

 

The ONLY justification for Tullius doing what he was doing (aside from being totally incompetent, which is then disproved by the fact he managed to capture Ulfric, in enemy territory, without the help of the Dragonborn) is that he's trying to keep him away from the Thalmor. And when the Thalmor catch up, he would rather execute the prisoners than hand them over.

 

As for the Penitus Oculatus... Your point? They don't go around murdering civilians. Literally every government, on Earth, TODAY, has a similar mechanism. What do you think the CSIS wet-works teams are for? Even CANADA has wet-works team. CANADA!

 

Yes, they did this assuming the Stormcloaks would not actually win, but if the Stormcloaks actually do win (with the Dragonborn helping them, this happens in a few days), it's like the Thalmor's ultimate plan just blew up in their face.

 

Are you forgetting that the Stormcloak victory is their favourite outcome? They much prefer NO victory, and that the war continue indefinitely, but if someone had to win, they'd rather it be the Stormcloaks, because that victory weakens the Empire. The Dominion clearly views the Empire as the bigger threat.

[birdsof]

Get the civil war overhaul mod it's the only way to play http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/37216/?

[AlexanderXI]

It seems like there are already many complex and well thought out replies to this thread so here's my two cents in the can.

 

Ultimately, you cannot assume that any parties involved in the Civil War are setting themselves up to be the villain. It's simply not in the program. It's not in the script. Whether they are Imperials or Stormcloaks or even the Thalmor, they have no personal view that they are doing anything terribly wrong and that ultimately whatever they are doing will lead to the "greatest benefit of all". Honestly, it's a matter of scope of view.

 

Jarl Ulfric's view and ultimately the view of the Stormcloak movement is fairly provincial. They are concerned first and foremost with Skyrim. Not Cyrodiil or Hammerfell or High Rock or Tamriel. Just Skyrim. That means their world view is limited solely to that of their perceived native land of Skyrim. Everything outside of Skyrim is simply not that important in comparison. The Empire's problems are not their problems. The Thalmor are invaders and the Empire are enablers for them. It's a fairly "Us against Them" viewpoint and lacks much space for tolerance. As for the accusations of Racism. There does seem to be a fair bit of prejudice in Skyrim in general. I think that's a more Nord culture view than an exclusive view of the Stormcloak movement. The reason they seem ultra-conservative is because they have that "Us against Them" mentality. Jarl Ulfric's view seems to be that anyone who will help is to be commended and honored while those don't are considered extra baggage and not worth fussing over.... unless they're in the way in which case they're traitors to Skyrim and need to go.

 

The Empire's view includes a lot more than Skyrim and so is not so focused on the supposed provincial matters as much as the Stormcloaks are. They are trying to balance the ways, views, cultures, and political details of not just one people. Their's is a much more vast scope that includes a good amount of Tamriel. The Empire cannot afford to be too invested in one particular detail of a people or culture. So of course the idea of just dropping Talos worship from the approved list of religions is a lot simpler than fighting a bunch of very crafty, well organized, and murderously zealous High Elves. They didn't do it to spite the Nords. They did it to buy time and breathing space after a devastating conflict that's been cutting the Empire into pieces. It's all part of a bigger plan for the greater good in the opinion of the Empire. They know the Almeri Dominion is relentless and cunning. They aren't complacent or fooled into thinking that simply abolishing Talos worship will suddenly make everything sugar and rainbows with the Thalmor. The problem with an organization like the Empire though is that with so many governing bodies and moving cogs in the political machine, moving into action is a slow and arduous deal. When the Empire strikes, it strikes horrendously hard but the wind up is just abhorrently sluggish. This fact in combination with their more insensitively pragmatic approach to most situations chafes on the proud Nords of Skyrim.

 

The Thalmor's view is controversial at best and honestly too many people are suspicious of them for anyone to provide an unbiased view. The Thalmor themselves are rarely helpful in alleviating this negative outlook on them and to be honest every agent you meet in the game seems honor bound to make you view them unfavorably. I know that I said that the Thalmor probably don't view themselves as villains and are looking out for the greater good too but honestly the difference an oppressive sociopath and a Thalmor agent is minor at times. Sorry but I can't justify what little I know of the world view of the Thalmor. I won't say they're evil since I don't really know their end game plan for all this... but damn if I know what the hell is wrong with them.

[Lachdonin]

but damn if I know what the hell is wrong with them.

The Thalmor are the quintessential Anuic-Mer. Altmer records go back into the Dawn era, and they have a collective memory of what they were before. They had their power stolen, their godhood destroyed, were trapped in a finite world and had mortality forced down their throats.

 

The Thalmor are a lot like victims of serial rape and abuse, locked in a dungeon and plotting their escape. They will scratch, claw, bite, burn, beat, crush, stab and generally and furiously destroy anything that keeps them locked in their prison once they get free... And they feel like they're out of the cage and heading for the door.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Lachdonin

[LeddBate]

 

In the original post the OP stated, you should wait until you know more about both sides. It doesn't change facts, without the dragon attack you would be lying dead in Helgen.

 

 

While that is true, it does not (in my opinion) invalidate my advice. I wanted very badly to join the Stormcloaks right after escaping with Ralof. The only reasons I didn't was that I've greatly learned to distrust knee-jerk reactions (especially my own) and, well, because I was a lvl 1 noob that could be easily beaten up by any roving bandit (or a particularly tough Skeever.) I still believe that every player should play the main-quest through to completion (or at least near completion) and visit every city and town throughout Skyrim to "get the pulse" of the populace, and then make their decision to which side to join in the civil-war (or not to join at all.)

 

Everyone already knows my outlook. I sympathize with the Stormcloaks (and my character personally worships Talos) and I antagonize every roving band of Thalmor into attacking me (by simply standing my verbal ground when the Thalmor inevitably threaten me with that bullying sentence: "Perhaps you have something you wish to confess?") But, I will side with the Empire in the war because I believe that is not just Skyrim's best chance at remaining free when the Dominion attempts an invasion, but all of Tamriel's best chance at defense.

 

A lot of talk has been made on this thread (and I am so very grateful to everyone who has participated, whatever their outlooks) -especially about how we impose our own worldviews and personal desires on the world of Skyrim. I couldn't agree more. I am clearly imposing MY beliefs on top of this game. I have made up my mind what my character stands for, and why. I am literally writing my own adventure within this game. When the game ends (and with mods that is going to be a long, long time) I will append my own "epilogue" based on what I have done and what I believe should happen afterwards. In MY rendition, there will be an eventual conclusion to the civil war. I won't end up King (and really, who wants to sit in on meetings with advisers and important dignitaries all day. Sounds terribly dull to me.) Nor will I be a Jarl. I'll be loved and respected by many, resented by others and hated by a handful. Because that's human (and presumably Khajit, and Argonian and Elven, etc, etc) nature. In my game, Skyrim will (in some areas, sullenly) rejoin the empire. And I will fade into the outback to continue my war with the Thalmor. They will not be able to rail the empire about me, because I won't be anywhere they can "officially" find me. This will force the Thalmor to back off a bit (because, officially, the White-Gold treaty is once again being enforced) and Talos worship, though underground, will continue to flourish.

 

But I do not expect anyone else to share my views on the matter. Want to be a die-hard Stormcloak and purge Skyrim in steel and fire? That's perfectly valid as an ending as well. Whatever anyone thinks of Ulfric and Galmor, there's no reason why your game cannot end with you standing shoulder-to-shoulder with them as you first drive out the Empire, then the Dominion. You don't have to justify your view to anyone. And there is certainly historical precedent throughout our world to support either a Stormcloak or Empire victory.

 

In the end, it really doesn't matter what Bethesda says "officially" happens after Skyrim. This is your adventure. Make of it what you will.

Edited September 26, 2014 by LeddBate

[Valkasha]

Get the civil war overhaul mod it's the only way to play http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/37216/?

 

The only way to break your save game you mean.

[Lachdonin]

 

Get the civil war overhaul mod it's the only way to play http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/37216/?

 

The only way to break your save game you mean.

Mods of any sort should also be generally inadmissible in discussions like this. Deactivated quests and events are deactivated for a reason, and can't be taken as evidence of anything.

 

The Civil War Overhaul (which I have found to be horribly unstable...) Is no more relavent than that Bathouse mod outside Whiterun.