Lachdonin Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Did those accomplishments include bending space with his Voice and bending time with a giant robot? What voice? Tiber Septim couldn't shout, it was Wulfhearth that did that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPatch Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Did those accomplishments include bending space with his Voice and bending time with a giant robot?LOTS of people back then (and previously) could use the Thu'um. And the bending time was done by the robot. Did he build that robot? No. So if anyone should be revered for that, it would have been the robot-builders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Did those accomplishments include bending space with his Voice and bending time with a giant robot? What voice? Tiber Septim couldn't shout, it was Wulfhearth that did that. According the The Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition: Cyrodiil, Talos had the voice until he slit his own throat to deflect suspicion away from people suspecting correctly that he himself had killed his king, the King of Falkreath, Cuhlecain. He lost his ability to shout as a result. http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_First_Edition/Cyrodiil The more I find details about Tiber Septim the more I suspect that Ulfric might be trying to emulate him closer than we think.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 (edited) According the The Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition: Cyrodiil, Talos had the voice until he slit his own throat to deflect suspicion away from people suspecting correctly that he himself had killed his king, the King of Falkreath, Cuhlecain. He lost his ability to shout as a result. And the Arcturian Heresy indicates that it was Wulfhearth who was Tiber's "Voice", and it was only after he had dispatched Wulfhearth to aid in the expansion into Highrock (and later the double betrayal of the Ash King and Kingmaker) that the story about Tiber's throat being cut was embellished. At this point, it's really down to what one believes... Based on what we know about Tiber Septim, however, i'm personally more inclined to Ysmir over Talos. Edited October 6, 2015 by Lachdonin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 According the The Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition: Cyrodiil, Talos had the voice until he slit his own throat to deflect suspicion away from people suspecting correctly that he himself had killed his king, the King of Falkreath, Cuhlecain. He lost his ability to shout as a result. And the Arcturian Heresy indicates that it was Wulfhearth who was Tiber's "Voice", and it was only after he had dispatched Wulfhearth to aid in the expansion into Highrock (and later the double betrayal of the Ash King and Kingmaker) that the story about Tiber's throat being cut was embellished. At this point, it's really down to what one believes... Based on what we know about Tiber Septim, however, i'm personally more inclined to Ysmir over Talos. But how does that fit with the end of Oblivion and Martin's transformation? Isn't the lore associated with Oblivion that the Septim line have dragonblood as a gift form Akatosh, hence the transformation? http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Book_of_the_Dragonborn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Oh, yeah, i don't dispute that Hjalti was Dragonborn, just that he never knew how to shout. There is nothing, anywhere, to indicate he ever killed a Dragon or studied the Thu'um. He never had access to that kind of knowledge. Alessia and Reman were Dragonborn too, and neither of them were known for shouting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Oh, yeah, i don't dispute that Hjalti was Dragonborn, just that he never knew how to shout. There is nothing, anywhere, to indicate he ever killed a Dragon or studied the Thu'um. He never had access to that kind of knowledge. Alessia and Reman were Dragonborn too, and neither of them were known for shouting. The Song of Tiber Septim (from the Pocket Guide I linked a couple posts ago) says he went to the Greybeards. Why is it so hard to believe he learned something while he was there? He was Dragonborn and the DB in Skyrim can learn from them essentially instantly. According to that particular lore source, they called him to them just as they do with the DB in Skyrim. Why wouldn't they teach him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 (edited) Hjalti was kinda busy. He was pretty determined to take over the world, and after meeting the Greybeards he turned his focus towards Highrock and the Nibenay city states, then Morrowind. I personally think it unlikely he stuck around to learn anything, particularly with Wulfhearth around. And if he did learn shouts, why add in the whole slit-throat handicap later? The Pocket Guides (as much as i love them) are first and foremost Imperial Propaganda, and need to be taken with a grain of salt. You can take what they say at face value, as in the end it's all about how you interpret the information, but looking at the Arcturian Heresy's explanation answers more questions than it raises. Edited October 6, 2015 by Lachdonin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPatch Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 I personally think it unlikely he stuck around to learn anything, particularly with Wulfhearth around. And if he did learn shouts, why add in the whole slit-throat handicap later?As the PC, you discover that being Dragonborn means you can learn a Shout almost instantly. So it could have been just a matter of hours at High Hrothgar to learn several Shouts. The Greybeards, if they recognized Tiber's Dragonblood could have tested their hypothesis by showing him a Shout. And then another, and another. Pretty quickly, he has an entire Shout portfolio. Now, I don't know the timeline well enough, but if Tiber was there after Jurgen Windcaller established his Way of the Voice, the Greybeards would have been trying to impress upon Tiber that the Voice was meant purely to praise the gods. But Tiber leaves and goes around building an empire, tearing down EVERY other empire. Then, in his later years, he recognizes just how much he had abused his gift for worldly things instead of using it "properly" as the Greybeards had tried to teach him. Then in an act of remorse, he deprives himself of the ability to ever use the Voice again "improperly". It's a theory anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 To be entirely honest, I think the instantaneous learning is a gameplay mechanic, nothing more. Because of the Greybeards near unilateral subservience to the Dragonborn, if it were that simple every Septim would have learned to shout. So would Reman, for that matter. The notion of Tiber's slit throat also has problems, because it stands out against what we know about shouting. So long as you can speak, you can shout, and Tiber did not lose his ability to speak. We know spirits can shout, as can Draugr, who barely have throats. Wulfhearth could still shout after being reduced to ash on 3 seperate occasions. And on top of those is the fact, if we accept Ysmir's account, Talos never shouted to receive the title. Ysmir/Wulfhearth did, making the Greybeards believe Tiber/Hjalti did. If it was Wulfhhearth, then he would have alsready been the master of practically every Thu'um, with no need to impart any knowledge at all. In regards of the timeline, Tiber/Hjalti went before the Greybeards well after Jurgen established the Way of the Voice. Jurgen was a contemporary of Wulfhearth, and one of the few Tongues to survive Red Mountain, in which Wulfhearth was blasted to ash by Dumac Dwarf-King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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