kimmera Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 To be entirely honest, I think the instantaneous learning is a gameplay mechanic, nothing more. Because of the Greybeards near unilateral subservience to the Dragonborn, if it were that simple every Septim would have learned to shout. So would Reman, for that matter. The notion of Tiber's slit throat also has problems, because it stands out against what we know about shouting. So long as you can speak, you can shout, and Tiber did not lose his ability to speak. We know spirits can shout, as can Draugr, who barely have throats. Wulfhearth could still shout after being reduced to ash on 3 seperate occasions. And on top of those is the fact, if we accept Ysmir's account, Talos never shouted to receive the title. Ysmir/Wulfhearth did, making the Greybeards believe Tiber/Hjalti did. If it was Wulfhhearth, then he would have alsready been the master of practically every Thu'um, with no need to impart any knowledge at all. In regards of the timeline, Tiber/Hjalti went before the Greybeards well after Jurgen established the Way of the Voice. Jurgen was a contemporary of Wulfhearth, and one of the few Tongues to survive Red Mountain, in which Wulfhearth was blasted to ash by Dumac Dwarf-King. Not every Septim came to the Greybeards. And Tibor, we are told, lost his ability to shout very early on so it isn't a given he taught his kids about that. He'd have to confess to having murdered his own King to advance, not something he'd want to encourage in them since he was their ruler. I am tempted to load up the earlier games and try to see if these references are there. They change lore between games. The whole Skeleton Key plot in Skyrim doesn't make sense given the key has been at large for centuries without any mention to any twilight sepulcher. Nocturnal has rewarded people with the key rather than keep it close to avoid risk to her power being cut off simply by a door being closed. Not to mention the ancient coven of pre-Empire vampires living off the coast of Skyrim yet seemingly never being an issue for anyone.... The official lore includes the concept that each playthrough is a separate alternative world, so each new game's continuity does not necessarily completely match the continuity of the prior games 100%. It is not a given that the official games are all actually the same world rather than very similar parallel worlds. Very convenient for the writers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidbossVyers Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Well, yes, the whole point of non-bloodfiend vampires is that they move with the shadows. Heck, many of their actions even help to get rid of feral vampires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 The whole Skeleton Key plot in Skyrim doesn't make sense given the key has been at large for centuries without any mention to any twilight sepulcher. Nocturnal has rewarded people with the key rather than keep it close to avoid risk to her power being cut off simply by a door being closed. It depends on how you interpret what you're shown. Nocturnal never says that the Key is necessary for the Ebonmere to work, only that it's going to stay closed until the Key is returned. It's far more likely she's keeping it shut until her property is retuned to her. The Nightingales, as a Daedric Cult, aren't necessarily that reliable a source as to the motivations of the Daedra themselves. Another problem when looking at Tiber Septim is... He's a Reigning King (CHIM), and has almost definitely changed elements of his own history. So it's almost impossible to separate the original history from his revised one, and then you layer propaganda on top of that. However, Wulfhearth's and Arctus' involvement is integral to the enatiomorphic elements of Talos, i at least am more than willing to accept that Wulfhearth was Tiber's voice. We also know that some of the Nordic myths surrounding Tiber Septim are just flat out wrong. No dragons around? Hah! He had one WORKING for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 The whole Skeleton Key plot in Skyrim doesn't make sense given the key has been at large for centuries without any mention to any twilight sepulcher. Nocturnal has rewarded people with the key rather than keep it close to avoid risk to her power being cut off simply by a door being closed. It depends on how you interpret what you're shown. Nocturnal never says that the Key is necessary for the Ebonmere to work, only that it's going to stay closed until the Key is returned. It's far more likely she's keeping it shut until her property is retuned to her. The Nightingales, as a Daedric Cult, aren't necessarily that reliable a source as to the motivations of the Daedra themselves. Another problem when looking at Tiber Septim is... He's a Reigning King (CHIM), and has almost definitely changed elements of his own history. So it's almost impossible to separate the original history from his revised one, and then you layer propaganda on top of that. However, Wulfhearth's and Arctus' involvement is integral to the enatiomorphic elements of Talos, i at least am more than willing to accept that Wulfhearth was Tiber's voice. We also know that some of the Nordic myths surrounding Tiber Septim are just flat out wrong. No dragons around? Hah! He had one WORKING for him. We also know Paarthurnaax was around. How did the Blades not know about Nafaalilargus though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidbossVyers Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Atlas_of_Dragons They did know about Nahfahlaar, but Tiber Septim was good at keeping his wild animals from causing trouble. Of course, by wild animals, I mean the Blades, not the dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Atlas_of_Dragons They did know about Nahfahlaar, but Tiber Septim was good at keeping his wild animals from causing trouble. Of course, by wild animals, I mean the Blades, not the dragons. Septim also granted amnesty to all Dragons who would join him. We don't know if any other DID, but at one point it was very well known that Dragons were still around during Tiber Septim's time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Atlas_of_Dragons They did know about Nahfahlaar, but Tiber Septim was good at keeping his wild animals from causing trouble. Of course, by wild animals, I mean the Blades, not the dragons. Frankly the whole Blades are dragon hunters bit makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) The Blades have been many things. They may have STARTED as Dragon Hunters, but they transitioned into imperial bodyguards and record keepers under Reman. During the Interregnum, they seem to have basically wandered around trying to find another Dragonborn, more for the Dragonfires than anything. And when Septim established the 3rd Empire, they became spies and covert enforcers of the Imperial Agenda. And now, without Dragonfires or Dragonborns being overly important, they're basically lost with no purpose. Even the attempt to return to their Dragon Hunter days won't last long. They're a dead organization. Edited October 7, 2015 by Lachdonin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 The Blades have been many things. They may have STARTED as Dragon Hunters, but they transitioned into imperial bodyguards and record keepers under Reman. During the Interregnum, they seem to have basically wandered around trying to find another Dragonborn, more for the Dragonfires than anything. And when Septim established the 3rd Empire, they became spies and covert enforcers of the Imperial Agenda. And now, without Dragonfires or Dragonborns being overly important, they're basically lost with no purpose. Even the attempt to return to their Dragon Hunter days won't last long. They're a dead organization. But Esbern seems to think the Dragonborns serve him..... And the Empire still exists, Septim bloodline or not. Do we have any pre-Skyrim lore saying they were something other than the Imperial Secret Service? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 No, not really. Though, the first we are ever introduced to the Blades, they're not even bodyguards, they're just covert agents in the provinces. And then they became associated with being the protectors of the Emperor and his family in Morrowind, and in Oblivion they were given their Akaviri associations.... They've been expanded on one game after another, so giving them pure Akaviri origins as Dragon Hunters isn't really that outlandish. it's also, like, 2000 years earlier. The Infernal City was the first source which indicated they were no longer the Imperial Secret Service. Apparently having the entire royal family killed under your watch is bad PR. So they became sort of a 3rd party spy agency dedicated to eliminating threats to the Empire, but without the legal red tape, and worked extensively throughout the Dominion. Then the Great War happened, and the Blades were almost wiped out. Delphine, at least, seems to still mostly be in the 'Undercover Imperial Agent' mindset. Though outlawed by the White Gold Concordant and hunted, she's still very pro-Empire and anti-Dominion. Esbern is, frankly, just a crazy old man... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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