pgir001 Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 There are two ways to look at the Fall of the Roman Empire: Either as two distinct entities, East and West, with the West falling relatively soon after the split. (Split 395 A.D., and West falls in 476 A.D.) The East remains and becomes Byzantium, which in its turn, doesn't fall until 1453 A.D. Viewed as being still a single entity, then it is one where half the body gets diseased and then eventually amputated to save what remains. The two entity version is MUCH more practical because while termed "co-emperors", they did NOT jointly rule over the same real estate. The Western emperor rule his area his way and the Eastern emperor ruled over his area his way. "Help" provided by the Eastern empire actually boiled down to grabbing Western real estate and transferring control to the Eastern empire. The primary reason that the West fell is because unlike the East, it experienced numerous migrations of barbarians and couldn't assimilate them fast enough. In effect, the Roman sociological and cultural influence was rapidly and drastically "diluted". At the fall of the West, the greater majority of its citizens did NOT see themselves as being "Roman". Rather, most still saw themselves as being primarily members of whatever Germanic tribe they were born into. The Western Romans could not rally a defense of the Roman "Motherland" or "Fatherland" or anything of the kind of "we-ness versus them" patriotic fervor that earlier Roman leaders could invoke. And note that at the sequence of events that led to the West's final collapse, there wasn't any move from the East to help forestall that outcome. Rather, the East's response was to grab some Western real estate that bordered on Eastern real estate. That pretty much illustrates that at that time (and for quite awhile before) the East and West rulers saw themselves as being two distinctly different political entities. *****Distinctly different from the situation in Tamriel, the Western Roman Empire did NOT fall to the concerted efforts of just ONE opponent. Rather, it was eroded by one adversary after another after another after .... Further, none of those adversaries threatened the East in any meaningful way. Rather, the East eventually fell to an opponent that didn't even exist until after the West was long dead and gone. This is sooooo different because the same opponent to the Empire also has designs on Skyrim. And if that foe is mighty enough to bring down the Empire, how difficult would it be to then finish off ityy-bitty Skyrim?Only thing, is that I don't see Skyrim as "ity-bity" The Nords have always been strong warriors. Skyrim isn't a well developed nation in terms of cities and culture, but they can sure fight. Aslo, I disagree with the poster above who said LDB is a non issue as the TES heroes disappear. That is only true from the subsequest TES installment's context. Meaning Oblivion's history has to be kept minimal and generic as told from Skyrim. And so Skyrim's history will have to be kept minimal and generic when referenced in TES 6. It has to be like that since from TES 6. Even Major events can't be known. Like the year Titus Mede II dies. But the big thing is, When in Sovrngarde, Tsun tells the LDB his destiny lies elsewhere. So his story isn't finished. MAybe from our perspective it ends, but the implication is that the LDB will carry on some more. And I don't think Tsun was talking about going back to finish rebuilding the Thieve's Guild (or whatever other quests were undone) Assuming you chose to believe the Dragonborn doesn't disappear soon after the evnetsl of TES 5, The Dominion now have something serious to worry about. And Even if you do believe the LDB leaves the scene, I'd imagine the return would inspire many Nords to learn "The Power of Old". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPatch Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Aslo, I disagree with the poster above who said LDB is a non issue as the TES heroes disappear. That is only true from the subsequest TES installment's context. Meaning Oblivion's history has to be kept minimal and generic as told from Skyrim. This is a VERY important element to the "Can Skyrim stand alone?" discussion: Skyrim can become an independent nation ONLY if the DB sides with the Stormcloaks. If the DB sides with the Empire, the Stormcloaks are over, done, kaput. Even if the Nords are mighty warriors. Which shows that they most likely could NOT resist an AD invasion without the DB's assistance. Absent the DB's assistance to either side, the Stormcloaks never take control of all of Skyrim, but neither does the Empire suppress the rebellion. In which case, when the AD and Empire resume the Great War, Part II, both sides of the civil war lose to the AD. UNLESS the DB (if he's still around) decides to aid the Empire against the AD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Even Major events can't be known. Like the year Titus Mede II dies. Those will be set. The Companions will reforge Ysgrsmor's Axe, Mede will be assassinated, The Eye of Magnus will be discovered etc. Whether or not the Dragonborn was involved will never be mentioned, but the events themselves will occur. But the big thing is, When in Sovrngarde, Tsun tells the LDB his destiny lies elsewhere. So his story isn't finished. The Dawnguard and Miraak. Chronologically, the expansions take place in order. Even though you can do things however you want, the March of History will almost definately (it has the last 2 times at least) record Alduin, Harmon and Miraak happening sequentially. Which makes Miraak the last chapter for the Dragonborn's story, and the most likely thing Tsun was referencing. And Even if you do believe the LDB leaves the scene, I'd imagine the return would inspire many Nords to learn "The Power of Old". The problem is... You can't just 'Return' to those ways. For one, Nordic Traditionalism is kinda... Self destructive. For two, you can't learn the Voice in a library. Even Tiber Septim tried to set up a school for it. The Greybeards are the only ones who can teach it, and they have long since decided it was NOT to be used for political, military or personal gain. In fact, Ulfrics use of it is one of the greatest heresies there is to the Way of the Voice. So they won't have the Thu'um and they've forsaken their mages. That leaves them with strength if arms, which is NOT what they carved out their first Empire with. And it's not enough to stand up to Dawn Magics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgir001 Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Aslo, I disagree with the poster above who said LDB is a non issue as the TES heroes disappear. That is only true from the subsequest TES installment's context. Meaning Oblivion's history has to be kept minimal and generic as told from Skyrim. This is a VERY important element to the "Can Skyrim stand alone?" discussion: Skyrim can become an independent nation ONLY if the DB sides with the Stormcloaks. If the DB sides with the Empire, the Stormcloaks are over, done, kaput. Even if the Nords are mighty warriors. Which shows that they most likely could NOT resist an AD invasion without the DB's assistance. Absent the DB's assistance to either side, the Stormcloaks never take control of all of Skyrim, but neither does the Empire suppress the rebellion. In which case, when the AD and Empire resume the Great War, Part II, both sides of the civil war lose to the AD. UNLESS the DB (if he's still around) decides to aid the Empire against the AD. Even on the occasions where I have followed the Stormcloaks, I've always looked at Ulfric as a "wannabe" Even when I side with him in the rebellion, I am still thinking, he's not worthy to be High King. But, in order to establish a new Empire, Skyrim needs her independence. At the end of the battle for Whiterun and when Balgruuf gets ousted, and expresses his disappointment. I want to say to him....."You should trust me, this is for the best. It's also not going to play out how everyone expects. There are much greater things at work here." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidbossVyers Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) Actually, given that every large hold court has a court mage, I think that the Stormcloaks are not as against magic as most Empire supporters think. Similarly, the raw words of the Way of the Voice (not how the Greybeards interpret it) say that the Voice can only be used in times of great need (not that it cannot be used in battle). However, the Way of the Voice also states that dragons always used the Voice for True Needs. Also, Ulfric does not want Skyrim to stand alone. He wants Skyrim not to stand under anyone. With as equals is fine. Obviously, Ulfric wouldn't complain if Skyrim stood a bit higher either, but I digress. Edited January 1, 2016 by MidbossVyers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPatch Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Actually, given that every large hold court has a court mage, I think that the Stormcloaks are not as against magic as most Empire supporters think. Similarly, the raw words of the Way of the Voice (not how the Greybeards interpret it) say that the Voice can only be used in times of great need (not that it cannot be used in battle). However, the Way of the Voice also states that dragons always used the Voice for True Needs. Also, Ulfric does not want Skyrim to stand alone. He wants Skyrim not to stand under anyone. With as equals is fine. Obviously, Ulfric wouldn't complain if Skyrim stood a bit higher either, but I digress.Hmm. Riften and Windhelm for sure. But I don't recall court magicians in Dawnstar and Winterhold. On the Imperial/non-Stormcloak side, there is one in Solitude, Morthal, and Whiterun, but not in Markarth and Falkreath. If the emphasis is on "large", I would think Markarth qualifies as such, while Morthal would not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Actually, given that every large hold court has a court mage Riften's mage is an absolute laughing stock and totally incompetent. Windhelm's is surrounded by so much fear and suspicion that no one thinks twice about blaming him for murders because, 'Wizard'. Dawnstar's is an outright pacifist. And all those positions are simply there because the Jarl's have always had a court mage, not because they are respected positions or that Nords have any faith in the magical arts. Similarly, the raw words of the Way of the Voice (not how the Greybeards interpret it) say that the Voice can only be used in times of great need (not that it cannot be used in battle). The Way of the Voice is for the glory and praise of the gods, not for martial pursuits. It COULD be argued that the Way would allow for the wider spread of the Thu'um in the glorification of Talos, but Ulfric admits that the Talos ban is a political tool and not particularly dear to his heart. In a similar vein, you don't seem to understand how the Thu'um works. Jurgen didn't convince the other Tongues of the Way, he literally shouted them into submission. He SHOUTED pacifism onto them. His Thu'um was stronger, and its influence changed how the Thu'um was taught. It's not a matter of interpreting philosophies, but an expression of sheer will. The Greybeards of today are still bound by the will of Jurgan, not an interpretation of some distant philosophy. He wants Skyrim not to stand under anyone. With as equals is fine. Obviously, Ulfric wouldn't complain if Skyrim stood a bit higher either, but I digress. What Ulfric WANTS isn't really relevant. I'm sure that Titus Mede II WANTS the world to settle down, his people to be happy and wealthy, and no one should have to re-live the horrors of the Great War. That doesn't mean that operating on the assumption that what one wants is the best for everyone is a reasonable thing to do. Ulfric's 'Wants' destabilise the entire opposition to the Dominion, weakening the overall ability to accomplish his end-goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgir001 Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) The Dawnguard and Miraak. Chronologically, the expansions take place in order. Even though you can do things however you want, the March of History will almost definately (it has the last 2 times at least) record Alduin, Harmon and Miraak happening sequentially. Which makes Miraak the last chapter for the Dragonborn's story, and the most likely thing Tsun was referencing. I don't know, I don't think defeating Miraak and Harkon count as a destiny. Defeathing them are tasks. Establishing or rebuilding an empire is a destiny. But I do have to admit, whatever that destiny is, will not ever be known. And that the LDB won't have anything else recorded in History after the events in Skyrim. Edited January 2, 2016 by pgir001 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rethrain Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Going back to the original question... I approach the decision on whether to join the Stormcloaks or Empire in a totally practical way. The Empire is known, it's in the mind's eye of people, regardless of how far it's fallen, It has clout and influence still. The Stormcloaks on the other hand are an unknown, even should they succeed in the in the civil war, who will ally with them? Certainly not the Bretons, they are still part of the Empire, if I'm not mistaken. Not the orcs, and anyone who has elven ears for that matter. Ulfric is not as dumb as to slap the hand that may help him, even if that person is say...a Dunmer, his followers however...well, let's say that they'll never let him hear the end of it. No, he is pretty much alone afterwards or in a tenuous alliance. I honestly don't know how he is going to deal with the Thalmor that are outside Skyrim, after Skyrim is depleted of manpower and other resources. The Thalmor were always the ultimate enemy, and I always get the sense that the Stormcloak are fighting the Empire more than they are fighting the Thalmor, regardless how much they hate the "pointy-eared elfs". Once this rebellion is done, then we can continue to gear up for war, because I'm very confident that while the Empire is kissing the Thalmor off, they are planning on a way to fight them all the while. It would be very foolish not to do so, rebellion or not. The peace will not last and the next war will decide the fate of the Empire, nevermind Talos. So I'm pretty sure it's a big deal to anyone who stands to lose. Heh, you can say that it was in very good luck for the Thalmor that the Markarth incident happened at all. Having said this, it doesn't stop me from roleplaying my alt Stormcloak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgir001 Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Going back to the original question... I approach the decision on whether to join the Stormcloaks or Empire in a totally practical way. The Empire is known, it's in the mind's eye of people, regardless of how far it's fallen, It has clout and influence still. The Stormcloaks on the other hand are an unknown, even should they succeed in the in the civil war, who will ally with them? Certainly not the Bretons, they are still part of the Empire, if I'm not mistaken. Not the orcs, and anyone who has elven ears for that matter. Ulfric is not as dumb as to slap the hand that may help him, even if that person is say...a Dunmer, his followers however...well, let's say that they'll never let him hear the end of it. No, he is pretty much alone afterwards or in a tenuous alliance. I honestly don't know how he is going to deal with the Thalmor that are outside Skyrim, after Skyrim is depleted of manpower and other resources. The Thalmor were always the ultimate enemy, and I always get the sense that the Stormcloak are fighting the Empire more than they are fighting the Thalmor, regardless how much they hate the "pointy-eared elfs". Once this rebellion is done, then we can continue to gear up for war, because I'm very confident that while the Empire is kissing the Thalmor off, they are planning on a way to fight them all the while. It would be very foolish not to do so, rebellion or not. The peace will not last and the next war will decide the fate of the Empire, nevermind Talos. So I'm pretty sure it's a big deal to anyone who stands to lose. Heh, you can say that it was in very good luck for the Thalmor that the Markarth incident happened at all. Having said this, it doesn't stop me from roleplaying my alt Stormcloak.The Thalmor love the idea of Civil War in Skyrim. It's a Win - Win for them. I really think Bethesda tried to do a good job creating a situation where no matter who you choose, there are negatives to weigh out. As I said earlier, Bethesda just never really did a good job in justifying Ulfric's cause to attack Whiterun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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