CaptainPatch Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 According to the dossier in Thalmor Embassy, Ulfric is a Thalmor sleeping agent, so Empire.If you read the file closely, you will note that it doesn't say that he is their agent. That is, that he isn't on their payroll, nor does he follow their orders. Rather, they let him escape, expecting that he would prove to be a disruptive element to the Empire in Skyrim. It was a calculated bet on their part. They released a prisoner for whom they no longer had any use. And once he got back to the Empire, who knows? Maybe he would do something crazy, like start a rebellion against the Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rethrain Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 According to the dossier in Thalmor Embassy, Ulfric is a Thalmor sleeping agent, so Empire.If you read the file closely, you will note that it doesn't say that he is their agent. That is, that he isn't on their payroll, nor does he follow their orders. Rather, they let him escape, expecting that he would prove to be a disruptive element to the Empire in Skyrim. It was a calculated bet on their part. They released a prisoner for whom they no longer had any use. And once he got back to the Empire, who knows? Maybe he would do something crazy, like start a rebellion against the Empire. Absolutely correct, they can call him a sleeper agent, or someone that could become one, but that is just a fancy way of saying that it's a person that they can manipulate without actually being there. He's not an actual mole, though he's just as destructive. The best Thalmor Scenario is for this war to be a very long drawn out conflict, then when they are ready once again with fresh troops, they then simply have to sweep both Cyrodill and Skyim. The 2nd best outcome is that Ulfric actually wins, Cyrodill will be weakened, but they will still have to fight it with resistance. And the least palatable scenario is the Empire actually winning, holding on to them, because the Empire would be quite strong then and the Thalmor would have to prepare even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 The Dossier refers to Ulfric as an 'Asset', not an agent. It also states that direct contact is adversarial and not encouraged. Even though I hate the man and everything he stands for, not even I would argue that Ulfric works for the Dominion. It's more likely that he is simply open to manipulation, either by playing off his guilt (it's unclear if he still believes that he was responsible for the fall of the Imperial City) or some other reason. The implication of the Dossier is that the Dominion had a hand in encouraging the Markarth Incedent and the opposition to the Talos ban, however, showing that there are definately strings being pulled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Absolutely correct, they can call him a sleeper agent, or someone that could become one, but that is just a fancy way of saying that it's a person that they can manipulate without actually being there. He's not an actual mole, though he's just as destructive. The best Thalmor Scenario is for this war to be a very long drawn out conflict, then when they are ready once again with fresh troops, they then simply have to sweep both Cyrodill and Skyim. The 2nd best outcome is that Ulfric actually wins, Cyrodill will be weakened, but they will still have to fight it with resistance. And the least palatable scenario is the Empire actually winning, holding on to them, because the Empire would be quite strong then and the Thalmor would have to prepare even more. How do you know that the Thalmor prefer a stormcloak victory to an Imperial one. There is no evidence for this claim at all. I would argue that an Imperial victory is their second best, because they can still use their justicators to weaken Skyrim. If the Stormcloaks win they are going to kick the thalmor out, so the AD won't know what's coming, or when. Remember all the groups the U.S. supported the taliban because they were fighting against Sadam Hussien? Just because the AD thinks the Stormcloaks are the bigger threat doesn't mean they actually are. That's not how Shouts work though. The language is synonymous with the idea. it doesn't change over time, because Fus IS Force, not just a word to describe it. It's like the Magic of True Names in many fantasy settings. No matter how many times it's told, no matter what culture it's represented in, the True Name is the same, and you either know it, or you don't.I just finished the last Earthsea book, and I can't believe I never noticed how similiar the true names are to shouts until you pointed it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 How do you know that the Thalmor prefer a stormcloak victory to an Imperial one. There is no evidence for this claim at all. I would argue that an Imperial victory is their second best, because they can still use their justicators to weaken Skyrim. If the Stormcloaks win they are going to kick the thalmor out, so the AD won't know what's coming, or when. Remember all the groups the U.S. supported the taliban because they were fighting against Sadam Hussien? Just because the AD thinks the Stormcloaks are the bigger threat doesn't mean they actually are. The Dossier on Ulfric Stormcloak heavily implies that, while a protracted conflict is their most preferential outcome, an Imperial victory is to be avoided at all costs. They even try to directly intervene to prevent Ulfric's execution at Helgen for that reason. They would rather the Storkcloaks not win, sure, but the Empire absolute must not, from their perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgir001 Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Absolutely correct, they can call him a sleeper agent, or someone that could become one, but that is just a fancy way of saying that it's a person that they can manipulate without actually being there. He's not an actual mole, though he's just as destructive. The best Thalmor Scenario is for this war to be a very long drawn out conflict, then when they are ready once again with fresh troops, they then simply have to sweep both Cyrodill and Skyim. The 2nd best outcome is that Ulfric actually wins, Cyrodill will be weakened, but they will still have to fight it with resistance. And the least palatable scenario is the Empire actually winning, holding on to them, because the Empire would be quite strong then and the Thalmor would have to prepare even more. How do you know that the Thalmor prefer a stormcloak victory to an Imperial one. There is no evidence for this claim at all. I would argue that an Imperial victory is their second best, because they can still use their justicators to weaken Skyrim. If the Stormcloaks win they are going to kick the thalmor out, so the AD won't know what's coming, or when. Remember all the groups the U.S. supported the taliban because they were fighting against Sadam Hussien? Just because the AD thinks the Stormcloaks are the bigger threat doesn't mean they actually are. That's not how Shouts work though. The language is synonymous with the idea. it doesn't change over time, because Fus IS Force, not just a word to describe it. It's like the Magic of True Names in many fantasy settings. No matter how many times it's told, no matter what culture it's represented in, the True Name is the same, and you either know it, or you don't.I just finished the last Earthsea book, and I can't believe I never noticed how similiar the true names are to shouts until you pointed it out. They don't prefer either side's victory. They want the Civil War to continue as it strengthen's their position since both the Empire and Stormcloaks continue to weaken each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 The Dossier does not heavily imply that an imperial victory is better than a stormcloak victory, it just says that "an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim," and "A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed." I don't think that is heavily implying that a Stormcloak victory is worse than an imperial one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 The willingness for direct intervention is a factor that can't be overstated enough. Their willingness to step in for the sake of Ulfric shows that they are more than willing to risk implication in the Civil War for the sake of preventing an outright Imperial victory. Meanwhile, there is no evidence anywhere that they are willing to offer any aid if any sort to the Empire should it be found on the losing side. The Thalmor would rather be caught red handed aiding the rebels, than assist the Empire. That is a very clear sign of preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rethrain Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Absolutely correct, they can call him a sleeper agent, or someone that could become one, but that is just a fancy way of saying that it's a person that they can manipulate without actually being there. He's not an actual mole, though he's just as destructive. The best Thalmor Scenario is for this war to be a very long drawn out conflict, then when they are ready once again with fresh troops, they then simply have to sweep both Cyrodill and Skyim. The 2nd best outcome is that Ulfric actually wins, Cyrodill will be weakened, but they will still have to fight it with resistance. And the least palatable scenario is the Empire actually winning, holding on to them, because the Empire would be quite strong then and the Thalmor would have to prepare even more. [...]because they can still use their justicators to weaken Skyrim. If the Stormcloaks win they are going to kick the thalmor out, so the AD won't know what's coming, or when. Ulfric wins and the empire is further weakened, making it easier for AD to win. The faster Imperial order is restored, the better against the Thalmor. The Stormcloaks were never that important against the Thalmor militarily, their objective was the Empire, the actual threat. the point of the Thalmor Justiciars of being there is to put Skyrim out of the picture altogether. If the Empire wins, then Ondolemar hasn't been doing his job right. Having said this, no, the Dossier says nothing like this. It doesn't have to either. Basically it's this: "Think globally, act locally" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPatch Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 The AD has to be concerned about how much military strength the Empire can deploy to the AD/Empire border. Imperial forces tied up in an ongoing civil war in Skyrim are forces that can NOT be sent to the Western borders of the Empire. The vast majority of Nords would understandably be more concerned about the martial affairs in Skyrim, rather than Empire concerns outside of Skyrim. Traditionally, the Empire relied quite a bit on the fact that much/most of the Legion's strength was provided by Nords. If the Great War, Part II was to start, an active civil war in Skyrim would keep nearly all Nord forces in Skyrim. If the Stormcloaks win, even though Skyrim was independent, MANY Nords would still go enlist in the Legion, simply for the opportunity to kill Thalmor with impunity. ("This is for my cousin, Jens, who you bastards murdered!") If the Empire wins the civil war, then Skyrim would be reunited in its entirety, and the greatest number of Nord volunteers would be available to move to the Empire's western borders. So when determining the AD's preferences, a 1-2-3 ranking seems pretty obvious. I don't seem to recall that the Thalmor had any intention to interfere in Ulfric's execution at Helgen. How could they? Ulfric had only just recently captured and then quickly transferred to Helgen. There wouldn't have been enough time for the news of Ulfric's capture to get to Elenwen (the senior Thalmor official in Skyrim) in Solitude, much less for her to organize any kind of intervention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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