Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Padre86]

 

If you're a Nord player, and one side has to win (after all you can choose to remain neutral), then the StormCloaks are the obvious choice for many reasons:

I get exactly how you feel.....Nord Dragonborn warrior stormcloak thing. I too play as though I was a Nord who wants to see Skyrim free.

It's just........Ulfric isn't the right guy for the job.

 

Perhaps you are right. Bethesda does do a decent job of giving both sides added depth, with nuanced views/statements that both add to and take away from their credibility.

 

I acknowledge Ulfric has some negative aspects to him, though I don't think he's an overt racist as many people claim he is. He is an opportunist and perhaps at times ruthless, but he is also competent and cunning. He is not the morally righteous leader that everyone yearns for, but then again, in Tamriel's long list of rulers who really is? Even Tiber Septim was suspected of foul play at certain points in his reign. For the average Nord, Ulfric, even with his faults, is a much better leader for Skyrim than is Emperor Mede. I have a 'Work with what you have' mentality...Ulfric isn't the perfect leader, but given the options available, he is the best one available to the people of Skyrim.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Padre86

[Rethrain]

I play a Custom Nord (Solstheimjar) and I tend to join the Empire. Again, simple practicality.

 

Personally, I find Ulfrich actually charismatic and honorable, albeit not good...or sensible.

 

The Captain of the Solitude guard said something to this effect when speaking about Roggvir, I apply the same to Ulfric, in general.

 

Edit#1: Come to think of it, I also would apply this to a Dremora Lord. Hmmm.

[pgir001]

 

 

If you're a Nord player, and one side has to win (after all you can choose to remain neutral), then the StormCloaks are the obvious choice for many reasons:

I get exactly how you feel.....Nord Dragonborn warrior stormcloak thing. I too play as though I was a Nord who wants to see Skyrim free.

It's just........Ulfric isn't the right guy for the job.

 

Perhaps you are right. Bethesda does do a decent job of giving both sides added depth, with nuanced views/statements that both add to and take away from their credibility.

 

I acknowledge Ulfric has some negative aspects to him, though I don't think he's an overt racist as many people claim he is. He is an opportunist and perhaps at times ruthless, but he is also competent and cunning. He is not the morally righteous leader that everyone yearns for, but then again, in Tamriel's long list of rulers who really is? Even Tiber Septim was suspected of foul play at certain points in his reign. For the average Nord, Ulfric, even with his faults, is a much better leader for Skyrim than is Emperor Mede. I have a 'Work with what you have' mentality...Ulfric isn't the perfect leader, but given the options available, he is the best one available to the people of Skyrim.

 

I mentioned earlier in this thread why I fight against Ulfric. It has nothing to do with racism. It's how he talks with Galmar after the victory speech in solitude. After hearing his little after-speech, I feel like the whole dam war was for his own personal ambition. Not the Nords or Skyrim. I left Solitude thinking.......WTF was that??????

[Padre86]

 

 

 

If you're a Nord player, and one side has to win (after all you can choose to remain neutral), then the StormCloaks are the obvious choice for many reasons:

I get exactly how you feel.....Nord Dragonborn warrior stormcloak thing. I too play as though I was a Nord who wants to see Skyrim free.

It's just........Ulfric isn't the right guy for the job.

 

Perhaps you are right. Bethesda does do a decent job of giving both sides added depth, with nuanced views/statements that both add to and take away from their credibility.

 

I acknowledge Ulfric has some negative aspects to him, though I don't think he's an overt racist as many people claim he is. He is an opportunist and perhaps at times ruthless, but he is also competent and cunning. He is not the morally righteous leader that everyone yearns for, but then again, in Tamriel's long list of rulers who really is? Even Tiber Septim was suspected of foul play at certain points in his reign. For the average Nord, Ulfric, even with his faults, is a much better leader for Skyrim than is Emperor Mede. I have a 'Work with what you have' mentality...Ulfric isn't the perfect leader, but given the options available, he is the best one available to the people of Skyrim.

 

I mentioned earlier in this thread why I fight against Ulfric. It has nothing to do with racism. It's how he talks with Galmar after the victory speech in solitude. After hearing his little after-speech, I feel like the whole dam war was for his own personal ambition. Not the Nords or Skyrim. I left Solitude thinking.......WTF was that??????

 

I'm not familiar with that side conversation. What exactly does he say?

 

I doubt it will change my stance. I knew from my very first play through, that there was more to Ulfric than just Nordic pride. It was very easy to pick up hints of arrogance, and selfish ambitions.

 

Like I've said before, Ulfric is by no means the perfect leader for Skyrim, but given the options available, or lack thereof, he is the best option, especially relative to Emperor Mede who has kowtowed to the Thalmor and done nothing to push them back.

[MidbossVyers]

Most leaders are political and ambitious. No need to single out Ulfric for that. If anything, Tamriel is shaped by ballsy ambition. Sithis had the balls to stand against Anu and thus create individual spirits. Lorkhan has the balls to deceive the other Divines and thus create physical being.

[CaptainPatch]

1) The Empire is crumbling, and has been for many years leading up to the Great War.

So helping the Empire to crumble faster is a Good Idea why?

[Padre86]

 

1) The Empire is crumbling, and has been for many years leading up to the Great War.

So helping the Empire to crumble faster is a Good Idea why?

 

It's for the best, and I gave a very detailed explanation on why I believed that. The Empire has been focused purely on serving its own interests.

 

That's why it abandoned Hammerfell to the Thalmor onslaught.

That's why it agreed to unfavorable terms in the White-Gold Concordate and allows Thalmor to roam freely, persecuting, kidnapping, torturing and killing all those who disobey the treaty.

The Empire ostensibly exists to protect and govern its constituent provinces and citizens. But its actions in the years during and immediately following the Great War show that to be a shallow endeavour. The reality is that the Empire is willing to sacrifice its core governing principles and mandates all for the practicality of avoiding additional conflict with the Thalmor.

 

A free Skyrim may face many challenges; indeed its very existence may be on the line once it leaves the Empire. But I'd rather fight for a faction/kingdom that stands by its principles than one that will gladly sacrifice them all for the sake of practicality and safety. As the saying goes: "I'd rather fight by the side of 10 dedicated warriors, than risk being betrayed or abandoned by 100 warriors of questionable character."

 

The Empire has been crumbling for some time, and under the leadership of Emperor Mede that crumbling has been greatly accelerated. If there is to be a resurgence of human rule and prosperity, it won't be in Cyrodil. The Empire needs Skyrim to keep its head above water. Skyrim needs to leave the Empire to reach its true potential as unified and self-governing Nordic kindgom.

[pgir001]

 

 

 

The Empire has been crumbling for some time, and under the leadership of Emperor Mede that crumbling has been greatly accelerated. If there is to be a resurgence of human rule and prosperity, it won't be in Cyrodil. The Empire needs Skyrim to keep its head above water. Skyrim needs to leave the Empire to reach its true potential as unified and self-governing Nordic kindgom.

 

The problem with this is that the Stormcloaks were only fighting a portion of the Imperial Army. Not the full strength. As it was, without the aid of the LDB, they were stalemated. This means that unless The Nords receive continued support from the LDB going forward, the Thalmor would crush Skyrim. The Stormcloaks, in their own right, just aren't strong enough to fend off the AD. It's just like the Imperials say. AS much as The Empire needs Skyrim, Skyrim needs The Empire.

Edited January 13, 2016 by pgir001

[Padre86]

 

 

 

 

The Empire has been crumbling for some time, and under the leadership of Emperor Mede that crumbling has been greatly accelerated. If there is to be a resurgence of human rule and prosperity, it won't be in Cyrodil. The Empire needs Skyrim to keep its head above water. Skyrim needs to leave the Empire to reach its true potential as unified and self-governing Nordic kindgom.

 

The problem with this is that the Stormcloaks were only fighting a portion of the Imperial Army. Not the full strength. As it was, without the aid of the LDB, they were stalemated. This means that unless The Nords receive continued support from the LDB going forward, the Thalmor would crush Skyrim. The Stormcloaks, in their own right, just aren't strong enough to fend off the AD. It's just like the Imperials say. AS much as The Empire needs Skyrim, Skyrim needs The Empire.

 

There are a lot of assumptions being made here.

 

1) During the civil war, the Stormcloaks are likely fighting only a portion of the Imperial forces. And I also do agree that the Dragon Born is instrumental in helping them attain a final victory. However, once the Stormcloaks do succeed, it is no longer Empire vs Stormcloaks, but rather Empire vs Skyrim, as Ulfric and the Stormcloaks have united and conquered all the Nordic holds. This also means that in the event that the Empire decides to send another army to take back Skyrim, which is highly unlikely given the tenuous truce they have with the Thalmor, their forces would be depleted of most, if not all, of the Nordic legionaries; no true Nord is going to take up arms against his own homeland, especially after the Dragon Born has cast his support for an independent Skyrim. I'm not saying that another fight between the Imperials and Ulfric's free Skyrim is impossible, but it sure wouldn't be easy for the Empire, which is already pre-occupied with keeping the Thalmor at bay. What is more likely is that the Empire will cut its losses, accept Nordic independence, in order to focus on the Thalmor and not alienate the many Nords within the Legion's ranks.

 

2) Any suggestion that the Thalmor could easily send a large force to invade and conquer Skyrim is laughable at best. The Thalmor suffered great losses from their fights in both Cyrodil and Hammerfell; a lot of people tend to forget that. Their military is likely in in a recovery stage, much like the Empire's. But for the sake of argument, even if they did have a large enough military force to invade Skyrim there are many unknowns for such an action:

- What is their invasion route? By land? Which kindgoms would freely allow Thalmor troops to move through their lands? By sea? Do they have enough ships to spare for that?

- How do they plan on sustaining and reinforcing their invasion force (whether it be by land or sea)? The Empire, at the very least had direct land access by which it could send in supplies and manpower. The Thalmor have no such access.

- What is the plan of attack? They would be facing a united Skyrim, likely with the Dragon Born's support. Do you really think they would simply be able to march in and start taking holds without a fight. I'd imagine even in a best case scenario, where they eventually succeed in conquering Skyrim, the casualties would be monumental; to the point where their military would be crumbling and left open to counterattack by the largely unopposed Redguard and Imperials to the south. In a realistic scenario, they would be fighting a unified, albeit weakened Skyrim, to a bloody stalemate, and face a combination of open opposition and guerrilla warfare that would steadily drain both their money and manpower, kind of like the Stormcloaks vs Imperial conflict.

 

Let's not forget that the Thalmor dispatches say pretty clearly that they want Ulfric to start a civil war with the Imperials, but that they don't want him to succeed. They view a unified Skyrim as a threat in the long term. And given that the main cause for the Stormcloak rebellion in the first place was Thalmor oppression, a Thalmor invasion would do exactly what the Thalmor have been trying to prevent: it would cause all of the different clans/factions of Skyrim to unite in opposition.

 

I think you expect too much from these "all-powerful" Thalmor. They are politically motivated like everyone else and face the same military and financial obstacles as everyone else. An attempted invasion of Skyrim would do little to accomplish their overall goals, and in fact would drain their already weakened military and economy. That's why a free Skyrim would be relatively safe from a Thalmor attack. Whereas the empire is a much more relevant threat to the Thalmor's supremacy, both politically and geographically. If the Thalmor were to launch a military attack it would likely be against the Empire...that's why the Empire so desperately wants to hold onto Skyrim

Edited January 13, 2016 by Padre86

[Rethrain]

Well...you are basically trading one potential Overlord for another. I think you expect to little once the Thalmor remove the Empire as it's greates threat. Skyrim might be safe in the short run, but they will still have to deal with the Dominion, since they will be the new big power around the block. I'm not saying Skyrim can't pull this off - or hell, remain independent after Thalmor hegemony, because it can, I am saying however...that they will have to deal with that "New Empire" much like the Resdayn, Argonia and every other province had to deal with a nascent empire.

 

So, I'll point out something that...not sure if you were aware or just avoided. The Thalmor would never attack Skyrim while they have to deal with the Empire. Ever. After establishing hegemony...most of your points are invalid since they wouldn't have to deal with any of that, and they can, indeed very much march against Skyrim in a punitive expedition unbothered*, no need to annex them, as long as you can strong arm people in doing what you want. After all, we can both agree, they are bullies.

 

I suppose having the dragonborn is a wildcard...but then again the Empire can have him as well.

 

 

 

 

 

*Yes, they will have to make preparations, logistics, plans, etc. After all, you need all of those anyways.