Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[MidbossVyers]

 

 

 

 

The Empire has been crumbling for some time, and under the leadership of Emperor Mede that crumbling has been greatly accelerated. If there is to be a resurgence of human rule and prosperity, it won't be in Cyrodil. The Empire needs Skyrim to keep its head above water. Skyrim needs to leave the Empire to reach its true potential as unified and self-governing Nordic kindgom.

 

The problem with this is that the Stormcloaks were only fighting a portion of the Imperial Army. Not the full strength. As it was, without the aid of the LDB, they were stalemated. This means that unless The Nords receive continued support from the LDB going forward, the Thalmor would crush Skyrim. The Stormcloaks, in their own right, just aren't strong enough to fend off the AD. It's just like the Imperials say. AS much as The Empire needs Skyrim, Skyrim needs The Empire.

 

Yes, but the American colonies only defeated a portion of the British Empire, and Vietnam only defeated a portion of the US. You're not supposed to expect to annihilate your enemy in a defensive war. This is not a war of attrition.

[CaptainPatch]

"We must all hang together or assuredly we shall all hang separately." -- Benjamin Franklin

The Empire has been focused purely on serving its own interests.

So instead of everyone pulling together to support Cyrodiil -- the province that most directly faces off with the AD -- Skyrim should go it alone? Thus assuring that the Empire will have NO chance to block the inevitable AD advance. Eventually leading to having the AD -- which would then include Cyrodiil and whatever else it grabbed in The Great War, Part II -- right on Skyrim's border. That would be sooooo much better for Skyrim.

 

Ever hear of a "buffer State"?

[Padre86]

"We must all hang together or assuredly we shall all hang separately." -- Benjamin Franklin

The Empire has been focused purely on serving its own interests.

So instead of everyone pulling together to support Cyrodiil -- the province that most directly faces off with the AD -- Skyrim should go it alone? Thus assuring that the Empire will have NO chance to block the inevitable AD advance. Eventually leading to having the AD -- which would then include Cyrodiil and whatever else it grabbed in The Great War, Part II -- right on Skyrim's border. That would be sooooo much better for Skyrim.

 

Ever hear of a "buffer State"?

 

Historically speaking a "buffer state" was a client nation that another kindgom/nation would own/support to keep standoff from its nearby enemies. Technically speaking, Cyrodil, or the Empire, is not a buffer state for Skyrim, as the Empire controls/owns Skyrim and not the other way around.

 

Also, the Empire has done a very fine job of destroying what little unity remains in the former Imperial provinces. They abandoned Hammerfell and the Redguards to their own fate, despite their dedicated contributions during the Great War. They've treated many of Skyrim's citizens like crap, as subjects who need to be beat into submission, instead of trying to win their hearts and minds. They've let the Thalmor agents run all over the Empire enforcing their religious laws without impediment. If the Empire had actually been fighting and negotiating with all of its subjects' welfare in mind, then I might find myself agreeing with you on Skyrim maintaining a unified front with the Empire. But the reality is that the Empire has as of late has been prioritizing its own power and interests above the welfare of all of its constituent provinces.

 

Following Ulfric's victory in the Civil war, a realistic and practical Empire would likely let Skyrim be and focus on its southern borders and the upcoming round 2 war with the Thalmor. They would also call for recruits from all over Tamriel, including Skyrim, and so long as the Empire let Skyrim be, I'm fairly certain many Nords would answer that call to arms, since they hate the Thalmor much more than they hate the Empire. Basically, an implied truce and cooperation between Skyrim and Cyrodil. In that kind of diplomatic environment, I think the Empire would have more than enough support to keep the Thalmor threat at bay. Heck, if the Empire were smart, they would try to form a grand alliance (with the Redguards, Nords, Dunmer, Orcs, ect.) to defeat the Thalmor once and for all; I think many of Tamriel's races would contribute to such an effort, just not as client states.

 

For a real-world comparison, think of the Australians and New Zealanders who fought with the British during WWI. After their bloody defeat at the Battle of Gallipoli, mostly because of mismanagement by the British commanders, the two nations solidified their plans for separation from the British commonwealth. They had lost faith in Britain's ability to effectively lead and govern. But that still didn't stop them from joining the Allied cause in WWII; they simply did so as free/independent nations. The Nords' experience is analogous to that of the Australians and New Zealanders; they still have an incentive to fight on the Empire's (Britain's) side, but as a free nation and of their own choosing.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Padre86

[Padre86]

Well...you are basically trading one potential Overlord for another. I think you expect to little once the Thalmor remove the Empire as it's greates threat. Skyrim might be safe in the short run, but they will still have to deal with the Dominion, since they will be the new big power around the block. I'm not saying Skyrim can't pull this off - or hell, remain independent after Thalmor hegemony, because it can, I am saying however...that they will have to deal with that "New Empire" much like the Resdayn, Argonia and every other province had to deal with a nascent empire.

 

So, I'll point out something that...not sure if you were aware or just avoided. The Thalmor would never attack Skyrim while they have to deal with the Empire. Ever. After establishing hegemony...most of your points are invalid since they wouldn't have to deal with any of that, and they can, indeed very much march against Skyrim in a punitive expedition unbothered*, no need to annex them, as long as you can strong arm people in doing what you want. After all, we can both agree, they are bullies.

 

I suppose having the dragonborn is a wildcard...but then again the Empire can have him as well.

 

 

 

 

 

*Yes, they will have to make preparations, logistics, plans, etc. After all, you need all of those anyways.

That's a big 'if' you are talking about there. The Empire and the Thalmor were both equally (or nearly so) bloodied and exhausted by the Great War. To suggest that they can simply march in take Cyrodil at a moment's notice, and without much trouble, is again relying on assumption. Also to consider, the Redguards, Bretons, and Nords (even if Skyrim is independent) all have a reason to join the Imperial fight against the the Thalmor. I don't think it would take much on the Empire's part to form a military alliance against the Thalmor, or at the very least, call for volunteers/recruits to bolster their own ranks...there are plenty of Orcs, Redguards, and Nords who would be willing to fight, given the right cause and the appropriate amount of pay.

 

But going back to your main point, if the Thalmor do manage to conquer Cyrodil and knock the Empire out, any follow-on fights with the Nords is no simple task.

1) They're facing a very unified Skyrim at this point. Even if a good number of Nords disagree with or don't like Ulfric and the way he took power, a Thalmor invasion would unite all the factions/clans in a common cause.

2) The Thalmor still have the Dunmer, Redguards, Bretons, and Orcs to contend with. The bigger the Thalmor Dominion gets, the more the other nations/races will view the Altmer as a threat. I think it is very realistic to assume that many, if not all, of these races would form an alliance or at least a cooperation in order to combat the Thalmor.

3) Defeating the Empire =/= subduing Cyrodil. The Imperial humans remember far too well their race's history (Alessia and her fight against high elf enslavement). It is very likely the Thalmor would face a human insurgency within their newly conquered lands.

4) Logistics, plans, preparation does matter. It was somewhat easy for the Imperials to fight Ulfric's rebellion because they had good lines of communication/supply, nearby recruitment pools, reinforcement, ect. The Thalmor won't be so fortunate in any potential fight against Skyrim. They won't have access to nearby recruitment pool (highly unlikely that any Nords or Imperial humans will join their ranks). Their reinforcements and potentially their supplies (depending on the condition of Cyrodil's farm fields) will have to come from the Summerset Isles. And if there is an insurgency in Cyrodil (as mentioned in #3) their supply/reinforcement situation will be complicated further.

5) A Thalmor victory over the Imperials will cost them money and manpower. Even if their victory isn't necessarily pyrrhic, mild casualty rates from such a conflict will set the Thalmor back quite a bit (and that's not even factoring in what the occupation of Cyrodil will cost them). The Thalmor may very likely find themselves stretched thin or at the very least, unable to conduct further conquests.

 

The Thalmor will have a lot challenges to overcome in order to conquer the Imperials and then wage a follow-on war with Skyrim. And let's not forget that their main force in Cyrodil was pretty much wiped out during the last conflict. They have several possible courses of action in front of them, and I can't imagine any of them without a good deal of Altmeri blood being shed.

[CaptainPatch]

Historically speaking a "buffer state" was a client nation that another kindgom/nation would own/support to keep standoff from its nearby enemies. Technically speaking, Cyrodil, or the Empire, is not a buffer state for Skyrim, as the Empire controls/owns Skyrim and not the other way around.

....

For a real-world comparison, think of the Australians and New Zealanders who fought with the British during WWI. After their bloody defeat at the Battle of Gallipoli, mostly because of mismanagement by the British commanders, the two nations solidified their plans for separation from the British commonwealth. They had lost faith in Britain's ability to effectively lead and govern. But that still didn't stop them from joining the Allied cause in WWII; they simply did so as free/independent nations. The Nords' experience is analogous to that of the Australians and New Zealanders; they still have an incentive to fight on the Empire's (Britain's) side, but as a free nation and of their own choosing.

Definition of "buffer state" according to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

-- a usually neutral state lying between two larger potential rival powers

So technically, we're both wrong... and both somewhat right. I really don't think you can call Belgium, Netherlands, and Luxembourg "client states" of France when it comes to facing off with Germany. In terms of Skyrim's security, it is advantageous to have somebody else between it and the AD. Skyrim abandoning the Empire markedly weakens the Empire. A weaker Empire is more likely to be overrun by the AD, thus putting the AD right on Skyrim's border. What happens next do you think? What would Skyrim's chances of resisting an AD invasion be without assistance from the Imperials and Bretons? (After all, why should they come to Skyrim's aid when Skyrim had abandoned them?) In fact, all things considered, they may actively and enthusiastically help the Thalmor invade Skyrim, just so the Nords get to share the misery they have after being abandoned by Skyrim.

As for the Anzacs, you really need to study History better:

Australia became a Dominion of the British Empire as a confederation of former colonies in 1901. This made Australia internally independent of the British Parliament, although external relations were still handled by the Imperial Cabinet in the UK. With the passing of the Statute of Westminster in 1931, Australia and the other Dominions became fully independent countries, although still within the empire. In the late 1940s the Commonwealth of Nations replaced the British Empire as far as the independent former colonies were concerned, so in effect, Australia did not leave the empire, the empire left Australia.

[Rethrain]

 

That's a big 'if' you are talking about there. The Empire and the Thalmor were both equally (or nearly so) bloodied and exhausted by the Great War. To suggest that they can simply march in take Cyrodil at a moment's notice, and without much trouble, is again relying on assumption. Also to consider, the Redguards, Bretons, and Nords (even if Skyrim is independent) all have a reason to join the Imperial fight against the the Thalmor. I don't think it would take much on the Empire's part to form a military alliance against the Thalmor, or at the very least, call for volunteers/recruits to bolster their own ranks...there are plenty of Orcs, Redguards, and Nords who would be willing to fight, given the right cause and the appropriate amount of pay.

But going back to your main point, if the Thalmor do manage to conquer Cyrodil and knock the Empire out, any follow-on fights with the Nords is no simple task.

1) They're facing a very unified Skyrim at this point. Even if a good number of Nords disagree with or don't like Ulfric and the way he took power, a Thalmor invasion would unite all the factions/clans in a common cause.

2) The Thalmor still have the Dunmer, Redguards, Bretons, and Orcs to contend with. The bigger the Thalmor Dominion gets, the more the other nations/races will view the Altmer as a threat. I think it is very realistic to assume that many, if not all, of these races would form an alliance or at least a cooperation in order to combat the Thalmor.

3) Defeating the Empire =/= subduing Cyrodil. The Imperial humans remember far too well their race's history (Alessia and her fight against high elf enslavement). It is very likely the Thalmor would face a human insurgency within their newly conquered lands.

4) Logistics, plans, preparation does matter. It was somewhat easy for the Imperials to fight Ulfric's rebellion because they had good lines of communication/supply, nearby recruitment pools, reinforcement, ect. The Thalmor won't be so fortunate in any potential fight against Skyrim. They won't have access to nearby recruitment pool (highly unlikely that any Nords or Imperial humans will join their ranks). Their reinforcements and potentially their supplies (depending on the condition of Cyrodil's farm fields) will have to come from the Summerset Isles. And if there is an insurgency in Cyrodil (as mentioned in #3) their supply/reinforcement situation will be complicated further.

5) A Thalmor victory over the Imperials will cost them money and manpower. Even if their victory isn't necessarily pyrrhic, mild casualty rates from such a conflict will set the Thalmor back quite a bit (and that's not even factoring in what the occupation of Cyrodil will cost them). The Thalmor may very likely find themselves stretched thin or at the very least, unable to conduct further conquests.

 

The Thalmor will have a lot challenges to overcome in order to conquer the Imperials and then wage a follow-on war with Skyrim. And let's not forget that their main force in Cyrodil was pretty much wiped out during the last conflict. They have several possible courses of action in front of them, and I can't imagine any of them without a good deal of Altmeri blood being shed.

 

 

Now, we are both assuming things here (all of us, I suppose), so there really is little point in pointing it out, as long as we aren't being too far-fetched. Also, I'm not sure where the big "if" is in all this. Somehow I believe you are relying on a very weakened Empire to bail you out, and the other Kingdoms when they've been beaten by rebellion and Thalmor. I never considered anything simple, Thalmor won't have much trouble once they beat the Empire, why would they? they would have cowed Cyrodiil, they are not going to have much trouble actually marching as long as they are wary enough and are not found skip-roaping around Cyrodiil. But...I need to say this, because I believe that I'm being misunderstood, this is not in a matter of days...no, this whole process from beginning to end is a matter of months and years, many years from the ending of the Great War till the next great one. So while Skyrim might have rearmed, the Dominon would be quite prepared as well..with quite a lot of land.

 

Having said this, I totally believe that The Empire would - and should - gather allies as you said, a coalition if they lose more land. And even if they don't.

 

1) Absolutely, I have no doubt that there won't be a single Hold not fighting the Thalmor, the same can be said if the Empire wins the Rebellion.

2) I'm pretty sure that Tiber Septim and Reman faced the same problem...they do not seem worse for wear. They went on to establish their Empires spanning the whole continent.

3) But it does, there can be no real victory if you do not subdue Cyrodiil, it is simply essential to reach Skyrim. However, as I've said in my prior post...there really is no need to fight Skyrim at all once you are the Big power on Tamriel. They can always lean on. There is also no need to annex it (Cyrodiil), I believe you were talking about Client States? Nothing is stopping the Thalmor from getting even more concessions after they beat them in the next war. Concessions that facilitate their war-path.

4) I never said that plans are not necessary, you can check my post again. I do not go into the details...because I see no point in it. That is the Thalmor's business...and whatever spy I can send to roast them to get the info. :D

5) See above my #3 point.

 

Oh, I do not doubt that their main force is out of commission...I do not see the empire is faring any better, weakened by the Oblivion crisis and surprised by Thalmor attack. Hmm...how did Legate Rikke put it? The Nords are rebelling because the Emperor is using Skyrim as it personal larder. Or was it Bryling? Anyways, I'm pretty sure the Empire is not doing that on a whim if it had the resources in Cyrodiil. If they do...oh, then we are really in trouble. haha.

[Padre86]

 

Historically speaking a "buffer state" was a client nation that another kindgom/nation would own/support to keep standoff from its nearby enemies. Technically speaking, Cyrodil, or the Empire, is not a buffer state for Skyrim, as the Empire controls/owns Skyrim and not the other way around.

....

For a real-world comparison, think of the Australians and New Zealanders who fought with the British during WWI. After their bloody defeat at the Battle of Gallipoli, mostly because of mismanagement by the British commanders, the two nations solidified their plans for separation from the British commonwealth. They had lost faith in Britain's ability to effectively lead and govern. But that still didn't stop them from joining the Allied cause in WWII; they simply did so as free/independent nations. The Nords' experience is analogous to that of the Australians and New Zealanders; they still have an incentive to fight on the Empire's (Britain's) side, but as a free nation and of their own choosing.

Definition of "buffer state" according to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

-- a usually neutral state lying between two larger potential rival powers

So technically, we're both wrong... and both somewhat right. I really don't think you can call Belgium, Netherlands, and Luxembourg "client states" of France when it comes to facing off with Germany. In terms of Skyrim's security, it is advantageous to have somebody else between it and the AD. Skyrim abandoning the Empire markedly weakens the Empire. A weaker Empire is more likely to be overrun by the AD, thus putting the AD right on Skyrim's border. What happens next do you think? What would Skyrim's chances of resisting an AD invasion be without assistance from the Imperials and Bretons? (After all, why should they come to Skyrim's aid when Skyrim had abandoned them?) In fact, all things considered, they may actively and enthusiastically help the Thalmor invade Skyrim, just so the Nords get to share the misery they have after being abandoned by Skyrim.

As for the Anzacs, you really need to study History better:

Australia became a Dominion of the British Empire as a confederation of former colonies in 1901. This made Australia internally independent of the British Parliament, although external relations were still handled by the Imperial Cabinet in the UK. With the passing of the Statute of Westminster in 1931, Australia and the other Dominions became fully independent countries, although still within the empire. In the late 1940s the Commonwealth of Nations replaced the British Empire as far as the independent former colonies were concerned, so in effect, Australia did not leave the empire, the empire left Australia.

 

 

I realize what the modern definition of a "buffer state" has become. But if you refer back to Ancient and even the Medieval times, nations/empires (like the Romans for examples) would frequently employ or support client states on their borders in order to buffer or impede foreign invasions. Since Skyrim is set in a Medieval environment, I am using the term "buffer state" in that context.

 

I think your own quote proves my point. The Australians and New Zealanders were still a part of the British Empire (I used the wrong term when I said Commonwealth) until shortly after WWI. It was the bloody defeat at Gallipoli, later known as ANZAC day, that motivated the Australians and New Zealanders to seek more independence from the British. Granted, it was the Statue of Westminster of 1931 that finally made Australia a sovereign nation (with still some ties to Britain), but ANAC day, and the high number of WWI casualties, was one of the biggest reasons why both nations wanted independence; this is widely known:

 

 

 

The Commonwealth of Australia became more independent in the aftermath of the Great War, a war in which Australia suffered 60,000 casualties fighting for the British Imperial forces. In 1919, under Prime Minister Billy Hughes, Australia demanded and was reluctantly offered a place at the table at the Paris Peace Conference. The 1919 Treaty of Versailles was, indeed, the first time Australia had ever signed an international treaty. In negotiations, Hughes demanded and gained Australian representation in the League of Nations and significant reparations from Germany.

 

The British signed the Westminster Statute because they knew both Australia and New Zealand were expecting independence, and to not sign it would have caused some tensions. So to say that Britain separated from Australia and New Zealand (and not the other way around), since they signed the statute granting their independence, is a bit misleading.

 

 

Skyrim separating from the Empire does not guarantee an Imperial defeat at the hands of the Thalmor. In fact, if the Empire handles the issue in a practical manner, as they have handled many other setbacks, they'll continue to have neutral, if not cooperative, relations with the Nords in order to recruit volunteers for any potential fights with the Thalmor.

 

Also the Thalmor are not as strong as everyone makes them out to be. They lost an entire army in Cyrodil and were fought to a bloody stalemate in Hammerfell. An Imperial alliance with the Redguards, Dunmer and even the Nords should be able to keep them at bay.

 

But even if the Thalmor do manage to conquer Cyrodil, there are a whole list of strategic challenges they will face in trying to conquer additional provinces (like Syrim). You should refer back to my previous posts to see what I said. The danger of Thalmor invasion for Skyrim is just as severe as is the danger of over-expansion and spreading too thin for the Thalmor.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Padre86

[Padre86]

 

 

That's a big 'if' you are talking about there. The Empire and the Thalmor were both equally (or nearly so) bloodied and exhausted by the Great War. To suggest that they can simply march in take Cyrodil at a moment's notice, and without much trouble, is again relying on assumption. Also to consider, the Redguards, Bretons, and Nords (even if Skyrim is independent) all have a reason to join the Imperial fight against the the Thalmor. I don't think it would take much on the Empire's part to form a military alliance against the Thalmor, or at the very least, call for volunteers/recruits to bolster their own ranks...there are plenty of Orcs, Redguards, and Nords who would be willing to fight, given the right cause and the appropriate amount of pay.

But going back to your main point, if the Thalmor do manage to conquer Cyrodil and knock the Empire out, any follow-on fights with the Nords is no simple task.

1) They're facing a very unified Skyrim at this point. Even if a good number of Nords disagree with or don't like Ulfric and the way he took power, a Thalmor invasion would unite all the factions/clans in a common cause.

2) The Thalmor still have the Dunmer, Redguards, Bretons, and Orcs to contend with. The bigger the Thalmor Dominion gets, the more the other nations/races will view the Altmer as a threat. I think it is very realistic to assume that many, if not all, of these races would form an alliance or at least a cooperation in order to combat the Thalmor.

3) Defeating the Empire =/= subduing Cyrodil. The Imperial humans remember far too well their race's history (Alessia and her fight against high elf enslavement). It is very likely the Thalmor would face a human insurgency within their newly conquered lands.

4) Logistics, plans, preparation does matter. It was somewhat easy for the Imperials to fight Ulfric's rebellion because they had good lines of communication/supply, nearby recruitment pools, reinforcement, ect. The Thalmor won't be so fortunate in any potential fight against Skyrim. They won't have access to nearby recruitment pool (highly unlikely that any Nords or Imperial humans will join their ranks). Their reinforcements and potentially their supplies (depending on the condition of Cyrodil's farm fields) will have to come from the Summerset Isles. And if there is an insurgency in Cyrodil (as mentioned in #3) their supply/reinforcement situation will be complicated further.

5) A Thalmor victory over the Imperials will cost them money and manpower. Even if their victory isn't necessarily pyrrhic, mild casualty rates from such a conflict will set the Thalmor back quite a bit (and that's not even factoring in what the occupation of Cyrodil will cost them). The Thalmor may very likely find themselves stretched thin or at the very least, unable to conduct further conquests.

 

The Thalmor will have a lot challenges to overcome in order to conquer the Imperials and then wage a follow-on war with Skyrim. And let's not forget that their main force in Cyrodil was pretty much wiped out during the last conflict. They have several possible courses of action in front of them, and I can't imagine any of them without a good deal of Altmeri blood being shed.

 

 

Now, we are both assuming things here (all of us, I suppose), so there really is little point in pointing it out, as long as we aren't being too far-fetched. Also, I'm not sure where the big "if" is in all this. Somehow I believe you are relying on a very weakened Empire to bail you out, and the other Kingdoms when they've been beaten by rebellion and Thalmor. I never considered anything simple, Thalmor won't have much trouble once they beat the Empire, why would they? they would have cowed Cyrodiil, they are not going to have much trouble actually marching as long as they are wary enough and are not found skip-roaping around Cyrodiil. But...I need to say this, because I believe that I'm being misunderstood, this is not in a matter of days...no, this whole process from beginning to end is a matter of months and years, many years from the ending of the Great War till the next great one. So while Skyrim might have rearmed, the Dominon would be quite prepared as well..with quite a lot of land.

 

The big "if" I am referring to is whether or not the Thalmor can even conquer the Empire in the first place. As I said, the Empire still has a lot of fight in it, even without Skyrim, as most of their legions are not fighting Ulfric but are stationed down south, preparing for a potential 2nd war with the Thalmor. The Thalmor themselves were equally weakened by the Great War and took massive casualties. In that context, a Thalmor invasion of Cyrodil, while possible, has absolutely no guarantee of success. And if it does succeed, there is a very good chance that the campaign will cost the Altmer massively in manpower and resources. A follow-up campaign against Skyrim, or any province for that matter, would be very difficult to pull off, especially considering that the other races will likely seek alliances with one another once the Empire falls, or perhaps even before the Empire falls.

 

Having said this, I totally believe that The Empire would - and should - gather allies as you said, a coalition if they lose more land. And even if they don't.

 

1) Absolutely, I have no doubt that there won't be a single Hold not fighting the Thalmor, the same can be said if the Empire wins the Rebellion.

2) I'm pretty sure that Tiber Septim and Reman faced the same problem...they do not seem worse for wear. They went on to establish their Empires spanning the whole continent.

 

The big difference for those two conquerors was that they relied predominantly on human recruits to fill their armies, of which there are plenty in Cyrodil and Skyrim. Who will the Altmer rely on to fill their ranks and reinforce their losses, especially after another costly war with the Empire? Maybe the Bosmer. Kahjit? Argonians? Perhaps, but neither of those races are really known for their martial prowess (at least not in melee). Someone like Tiber Siptem was able to carry out the extensive conquests that he did because he had extensive backing from many of the provinces/peoples that he ruled over; in fact many joined his cause willingly. That's not the case with the Thalmor.

 

3) But it does, there can be no real victory if you do not subdue Cyrodiil, it is simply essential to reach Skyrim. However, as I've said in my prior post...there really is no need to fight Skyrim at all once you are the Big power on Tamriel. They can always lean on. There is also no need to annex it (Cyrodiil), I believe you were talking about Client States? Nothing is stopping the Thalmor from getting even more concessions after they beat them in the next war. Concessions that facilitate their war-path.

 

I said defeating the Empire does not mean the same thing as subduing Cyrodil. There is a very likely possibility that the insurgent Imperials will continue to fight on after the Empire falls, or at the very least will engage in passive resistance to the Thalmor cause. No one in Cyrodil has any incentive to support or even like the Thalmor cause. And the occupation of a tense or even outright hostile province will force the Thalmor to divert a good number of troops and resources for occupation duties (less troops/resources to fight Skyrim with).

 

4) I never said that plans are not necessary, you can check my post again. I do not go into the details...because I see no point in it. That is the Thalmor's business...and whatever spy I can send to roast them to get the info. :D

 

I'm not sure what you think I said. I was simply stating in my earlier posts that plans/details matter for these big strategic operations. There are a lot of planning factors that perhaps you aren't taking into account when you say that the Thalmor should be able to conquer Cyrodil and then Skyrim without much trouble. There will be a lot of trouble for the Thalmor, almost to the point where it might be impractical.

 

5) See above my #3 point.

 

Oh, I do not doubt that their main force is out of commission...I do not see the empire is faring any better, weakened by the Oblivion crisis and surprised by Thalmor attack. Hmm...how did Legate Rikke put it? The Nords are rebelling because the Emperor is using Skyrim as it personal larder. Or was it Bryling? Anyways, I'm pretty sure the Empire is not doing that on a whim if it had the resources in Cyrodiil. If they do...oh, then we are really in trouble. haha.

 

Right, exactly my point! The Thalmor and the Imperials are both in a bad spot after the Great War. The Thalmor, despite their world ambitions, are no more ready for the next Great War than are the Imperials. That's why they are engaging/manipulating these satellite conflicts, like Ulfric's rebellion. Because they want to find ways to weaken the Empire through means other than direct conflict (which they can't afford to engage in right now).

 

 

See my response in bold and underlined.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Padre86

[CaptainPatch]

I realize what the modern definition of a "buffer state" has become. But if you refer back to Ancient and even the Medieval times, nations/empires (like the Romans for examples) would frequently employ or support client states on their borders in order to buffer or impede foreign invasions. Since Skyrim is set in a Medieval environment, I am using the term "buffer state" in that context.

This is called "bypassing". I use a word that has one meaning to me, but upon reading it, you apply your definition which means something else entirely -- and then proceed on the assumption that we are using the term identically.

 

We exist now, and the commonly accepted definitions of NOW are the ones that apply -- unless an alternate definition is specified and clearly stated as being the interpretation being used. Or should we assume that the definitions of Old or Middle English should be used?

 

Your argument is NOT that all buffer states = client states. Rather that some buffers states in Ancient times were also client states. My point is that it is usually a Good Thing to have somebody else situated between two political entities when one or both are aggressively confrontational. If the AD defeats a weakened Empire, there would be nobody between Skyrim and an aggressive AD that really, really hates Talos worship, and would like nothing better than to see it eradicated everywhere.

 

I think your own quote proves my point. The Australians and New Zealanders were still a part of the British Empire (I used the wrong term when I said Commonwealth) until shortly after WWI. It was the bloody defeat at Gallipoli, later known as ANZAC day, that motivated the Australians and New Zealanders to seek more independence from the British. Granted, it was the Statue of Westminster of 1931 that finally made Australia a sovereign nation (with still some ties to Britain), but ANAC day, and the high number of WWI casualties, was one of the biggest reasons why both nations wanted independence; this is widely known:

 

The Commonwealth of Australia became more independent in the aftermath of the Great War, a war in which Australia suffered 60,000 casualties fighting for the British Imperial forces. In 1919, under Prime Minister Billy Hughes, Australia demanded and was reluctantly offered a place at the table at the Paris Peace Conference. The 1919 Treaty of Versailles was, indeed, the first time Australia had ever signed an international treaty. In negotiations, Hughes demanded and gained Australian representation in the League of Nations and significant reparations from Germany.

 

The British signed the Westminster Statute because they knew both Australia and New Zealand were expecting independence, and to not sign it would have caused some tensions. So to say that Britain separated from Australia and New Zealand (and not the other way around), since they signed the statute granting their independence, is a bit misleading.

Your argument would carry more weight if the Westminster Statute of 1931 applied to only Australia and New Zealand. But it doesn't. It included Canada, the Irish Free State, the Union of South Africa, and Newfoundland as well. In the cases of Australia, New Zealand, and Newfoundland, there was the requirement that their legislatures officially adopt the Statute before they shifted from Dominion to Commonwealth status. Which Australia didn't do until 1942. Further, section nine of the Statute included the Colonial Laws Validity Act of 1865 which permitted the UK's Parliament to create laws that applied to all of Australia's States. That provision wasn't rescinded until the passage of the Australia Act of 1986. To demonstrate just how much independence these Acts gave to to Australia, a referendum on secession held in Western Australia in April 1933 was approved by 68% of the voters there. The results of the referendum were presented to Parliament -- which refused to do anything on the subject... which is precisely what became of the referendum: nothing. And today, Australia and New Zealand are still UK Commonwealth nations.

[Rethrain]

Having read this thing, all I'm seeing here is a difference of opinion, with you, Padre, nothing that actually invalidates any of my points for me to actually try to remedy it, or continue.

 

I prepare for the worst outcome possible, because it is in very poor form (for any strategist) to rely on your enemy not being ready for you than you being ready for your enemy.

 

Your very last point, however, is something I've said in the past as well and have always been taken into consideration. Though, I don't expect you to actually go sifting through it all. I'm not being sarcastic about it though. It's there.