Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[monganfinn]

A question on the troop strength - I always read that the only legion operating in Skyrim is the ninth. Now that makes very little sense to me. If you read the ingame book The Great War: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War then you will notice that the author is a legate and in ancient Rome the legates were the one to command legions. The author goes on to clearly state that he commanded the 10th so I assume that as in RL history a legate commands his own legion, correct?

 

How can then there be a single legion in a province that has 9+ legates?? Or is the ninth legion just speculation and imagination?

This is further cememted IMO by the same book that cites that General Jonna brought "the legions of Skyrim" south. Implying that each province has several legions, and there also were several legions in Hammerfell. Both of the provinces have Generals, so IMO a general commands several legions by default and each province has a general.

 

I also always hear how the legion is understaffed in Skyrim, because the legates say that they recruit locally: well the legions of General Jonna were titled as "Nords" so IMO the legions are always majorly recruited from the locals of the province?

Which would mean that the imperial forces in Skyrim aren´t really that small, at least not smaller than they should be without the allocation of outside reinforcments which would weaken the other provinces.

 

Tullius says that the empire´s other legions are posted on the border to the Dominion in the south, thus that mean that they really decided to transport legions from the other provinces into Cyrodiil? Which would explain the "apparent" shortage of soldiers in Skyrim but seems really, really dumb.

 

If however the legions in Skyrim are at regular strength, then Tullius deeds of bringing about a stalemate against the Stormcloaks, who previously had been quite successful apparently, after he took over command seem far less impressive considering that the Stormcloaks at the time didn´t even have the troops to attack Whiterun. - Remember that Tullius debunked Rikke´s fears of the Stormcloaks attacking Whiterun with the words "they don´t have enough men".

 

I hope you can clear up my questions - as they also would shed some light on the current military state of the empire, 25 years after the Great War, it would also influence the pro empire argument that the Empire is the better force to fight of the Dominion.

[pgir001]

Even though I believe in Ulfric's stated cause, I do not agree with Ulfric himself. 2 things that leave a really bad taste in my mouth with joining the SCs.

 

1. Ulfric's attack on Whiterun cannot be justified under his stated cause. Whiterun is not an enemy to Ulfric, nor is Whiterun an ally to the Empire at the start of the game. But what's more, Whiterun is the only city in Skyrim to openly allow Talos Worship out in the streets.

 

2. After Ulfric's victory speech in Solitude, he turns to Galmar who says "Nice touch about the High King, It's a foregone conclusion you know" (Referring to saying he won't take the position until the Moot) Then Ulfric replies with "Oh, I know." Meaning Ulfric wasn't being sincere about taking the position as High King but just going through the motions to make it look good for the Jarls. That really pissed me off. After All I did and all I betrayed for him to say something like that? If the game let me, I'd have killed him on the spot for that. So from that day forward, I will never join the Stormcloaks. EVER!

[Madcat221]

Even though I believe in Ulfric's stated cause, I do not agree with Ulfric himself. 2 things that leave a really bad taste in my mouth with joining the SCs.

 

1. Ulfric's attack on Whiterun cannot be justified under his stated cause. Whiterun is not an enemy to Ulfric, nor is Whiterun an ally to the Empire at the start of the game. But what's more, Whiterun is the only city in Skyrim to openly allow Talos Worship out in the streets.

 

2. After Ulfric's victory speech in Solitude, he turns to Galmar who says "Nice touch about the High King, It's a foregone conclusion you know" (Referring to saying he won't take the position until the Moot) Then Ulfric replies with "Oh, I know." Meaning Ulfric wasn't being sincere about taking the position as High King but just going through the motions to make it look good for the Jarls. That really pissed me off. After All I did and all I betrayed for him to say something like that? If the game let me, I'd have killed him on the spot for that. So from that day forward, I will never join the Stormcloaks. EVER!

 

I too believe that the children of Skyrim has some valid grievances with the Empire. But to resort to violent sedition was absolutely the wrong way to air those grievances. It just affirms the "savage nord barbarian" stereotype. That is the sentiment of many pro-Empire nords in a nutshell. You might find yourself more pro-Imperial than you believe.

[pgir001]

OK, so in my last post, I said I'd never support Ulfirc Stormcloak......But I am actually going to try something different. I am going t ojoin the stormcloaks in a new game. My issue with the civil war has always been a decision between Ulfric as a man worthy to lead Skyrim vs. the weak Empire betraying its own people to the Thalmor. And which was the overall worse situation for Skyrim. But looking at the mod "Become High King of Skyrim" I might actually try a game and fight for the Stormcloaks but replace Ulfiric. So like at the end of the Civil War when Ulfric turns to the Dragonborn, I can say......."Umm......Yeah, about that "

[phantompally76]

I am always neutral. The Civil War is just too buggy, even with mods. I treat it as "I'm here to stop dragons from destroying you, I don't have time for your insignificant little squabble".

[Lachdonin]

The Civil War is just too buggy, even with mods.

 

I have never experienced a single bug in the Civil War Questline, on either side.

 

Even then, the mechanics don't really enter into the discussion.

[phantompally76]

Good for you. I'm glad to read you've never had an npc glitch at the start or end of a battle, preventing you from quest initialization or completion. And I'm glad to read that Warzones never corrupted or bloated your save beyond playability.

 

Many, many others have not been so fortunate.

 

Unless one is as lucky as you are, the Civil War almost certainly requires console commands to complete. With, or without mods.

[monganfinn]

Even though I believe in Ulfric's stated cause, I do not agree with Ulfric himself. 2 things that leave a really bad taste in my mouth with joining the SCs.

 

1. Ulfric's attack on Whiterun cannot be justified under his stated cause. Whiterun is not an enemy to Ulfric, nor is Whiterun an ally to the Empire at the start of the game. But what's more, Whiterun is the only city in Skyrim to openly allow Talos Worship out in the streets.

 

2. After Ulfric's victory speech in Solitude, he turns to Galmar who says "Nice touch about the High King, It's a foregone conclusion you know" (Referring to saying he won't take the position until the Moot) Then Ulfric replies with "Oh, I know." Meaning Ulfric wasn't being sincere about taking the position as High King but just going through the motions to make it look good for the Jarls. That really pissed me off. After All I did and all I betrayed for him to say something like that? If the game let me, I'd have killed him on the spot for that. So from that day forward, I will never join the Stormcloaks. EVER!

 

Some thoughts on your points:

 

1:

The cause of the Stormcloaks is to separate all of Skyrim from the Empire, by that notion Whiterun or rather Balgruuf was an enemy to them! Yes, whoever isn´t with them is against them, that´s how things are done in wars. Balgruuf being neutral is as much a humbug as the war not mattering to the Dunmer in Windhelm - as if the catapults of the Legion didn´t also fire into the Grey Quarter! Balgruuf was the typical fence sitter who probably made money from both sides. Furthermore the hold had immence strategic importance as even can be seen in the questline, rich fields, and a central position in the province. Where else could large amounts of troops move through to attack the other holds? Through the marshes of the Hjaal? Through the Jerall Mountains? Ingame this didn´t pose a problem but in universe this would have amounted to Hannibal moving his army through the Alps. And lastly, the reason the civil war continued for so long was because Balgruuf didn´t pick a side until forced. He helped the AD´s goal of continued strife just as much as the feuding parties.... well not AS much.

 

Whiterun isn´t the only city in Skyrim that allows Talos worship, it´s just the only city that has a statue of him on the outside! Whiterun has the only open Talos temple, Markath and Solitude closed down their Talos worship. Winterhold and Dawnstar are to pitifully small to have temples and Riften is all about Mara. Mora alone knows how Balgruuf kept the AD from taking Heimskr and the Battleborn mother prisoner as with all the traders in the city it couldn´t have been kept a secret. Probably patrols in that area tended to go missing.

 

Ulfric did send Balgruuf an ultimatum in form of his axe, Balgruuf rejected the attempt to strong arm them to the Stormcloaks. A foolishly honourable move might I add. IMO he should have marched his troops up to Whiterun and send the axe then. That way he would have kept the element of surprise on his side and Balgruuf might have joined out of fear of his city being sacked.

 

2: You hate him for vocalizing something everyone knows? I mean naturally it is a foregone conclusion that he´d be crowned with all the Jarls being instated by him, who else should they vote for? ... Elisif? Furthermore this is one of the few instances where anyone in the game showed political skills, or at least propaganda skills. He actually just demonstrated that he actually is ... somewhat capable of doing the job of High King.

[monganfinn]

 

...The fact that the Stormclaoks, cited as being composed of many veterans of the Great War, can't beat locally recruited militia in Legion uniforms (again, there is no proper Legion in Skyrim. They have a few token officers, and even all their gear seems to be commissioned locally)...

 

Where do you get this from Lachdonin??

I have scoured the internet for sources because everywhere people claim there is just a single legion in Skyrim. Either the 4th, 9th or whatever. But I found NADA!

 

If you accept the command structure from the book "The Great War" then a general commands several legions and each legion is commanded by a legate. That´s exactly the same as in history. In Skyrim we have legates for every hold and a general to lead them all, each of them should lead a legion.

I fully accept that those legions are reduced, through desertion and such, the Great War is 25 years past - no legion would still reduced because of it!

True, the legates always say they are forced to recruit locally, IMO to make up their losses! because in the "The Great War" it clearly states that General Jonna came from Skyrim with her Nord legions. It would be foolish to post Nords in Hammerfell, Elsweyr and Black Marsh and Redguards + Argonians in Skyrim.

 

I hold that the Stormcloaks are fighting a fully working provincial Legion force! The legate´s legions are definitely damaged and they have no reinforcments from Cyrodiil but the regular peacekeeping force is in the province!

 

Lastly when the player wears the imperial leather armor the guards greet you with "I see you wearing the armor of an imperial/legion scout..." Skyrim really doesn´t have the terrain where you could apply large scale formations or anything, IMO the civil war would be apart from the sieges mostly many skirmishes. Thus it makes sense not to deck out everyone in steel plate.

And yes, the smiths all say how they provide the Legion with arms, but again it would be nonsense to import weapons and armors from other nations. Naturally they would by things on spot, the travel time alone makes it the better choice!

[Lachdonin]

We are told that not only are they being forced to recruit locally (not exactly abnormal, as the Legion has always accepted recruits from its provinces) but that they are unable to go through the normal recruitment and training process. That's why you get sent to clear out a fort when you join.

 

It's very similar to Rome's war against Hannibal. The Legions that they kept throwing up against Hannibal and his forces were barely trained recruits, given quickly commissioned equipment, and led by some of the remaining officers. They were, technically, true Legions, but nothing compared to properly trained and supplied Legions which were whipping Carthaginian ass in Iberia during the same time. They were a holding mechanism while Rome fought the real war elsewhere.